Jerryaki
Starter
it's been three tournaments now. they haven't learned sh*t.
USA vs Greece (Live thread)
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it's been three tournaments now. they haven't learned sh*t.
piksi
Hall of Famer
FIBA basketball is a TEAM game - not a game of stars. Amazing, how some "US stars" look human when they don't get all pathetic calls and go to the line 25+ times. Also amazing to see how vital shooting is. As long as it beats athleticism - the game is still intact. It is a national holiday in Greece. If they win, they will do what Serbia did in 2001 & 2002 - rule the world of Basketball. Best BB still played in Europe.
Almost forgot - the arogance of US players made me sick - "I am Lebron and Greece sucks." Didn't see him smiling after the game tough.
Almost forgot - the arogance of US players made me sick - "I am Lebron and Greece sucks." Didn't see him smiling after the game tough.
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Variant
Starter
So what would happen if the NBA changed its rules to match up more with International ball? Maybe a gradual change? I guess you could argue in once sense they are (with the zone being legal now).
I wonder if the product would be less fun to watch or if people could enjoy the emphasis on the team vs. team thing instead of star vs. star.
While I was rooting for Team USA all the way, it is somewhat redeeming in a way to see yet again the one-on-one style of play not pay off. Honestly it puzzles me as I thought this team would be more focused on trying to play international style ball. In the end we didn't see a product much different than the Athens team at all!
I'll cut them some slack because this was a mere six-week project, but as long as they realized it was a work in progress, may as well have started _trying_ to run some motion offense involing more than two players, scouting opposing teams and going over defenses on things like the pick and roll
eek: ). The only thing we ever heard that was being emphasized was the pressure defense...
Anyways, this can be a positive experience if Team USA learns from it and makes changes. I'm not super optimistic however as they've proven to be fairly hard-headed when it comes to changing their ways.
And not to beat a dead horse, but I was sorely disappointed with Lebron and Wade to a lesser extent. Both athletic freaks, both not so strong in the shooting department and very prone to one on one play trying to be the hero.
There, good vent.
I wonder if the product would be less fun to watch or if people could enjoy the emphasis on the team vs. team thing instead of star vs. star.
While I was rooting for Team USA all the way, it is somewhat redeeming in a way to see yet again the one-on-one style of play not pay off. Honestly it puzzles me as I thought this team would be more focused on trying to play international style ball. In the end we didn't see a product much different than the Athens team at all!
I'll cut them some slack because this was a mere six-week project, but as long as they realized it was a work in progress, may as well have started _trying_ to run some motion offense involing more than two players, scouting opposing teams and going over defenses on things like the pick and roll
eek: ). The only thing we ever heard that was being emphasized was the pressure defense... Anyways, this can be a positive experience if Team USA learns from it and makes changes. I'm not super optimistic however as they've proven to be fairly hard-headed when it comes to changing their ways.
And not to beat a dead horse, but I was sorely disappointed with Lebron and Wade to a lesser extent. Both athletic freaks, both not so strong in the shooting department and very prone to one on one play trying to be the hero.
There, good vent.
Variant
Starter
And yes, FIBA vs NBA is a drastically different game. Watching this tournament showed me that even more.
I have no doubt that this Greek team as a team in the NBA wouldn't even make the playoffs. It's just that different.
Team USA has gotta figure out how to adjust in their limited time together.
I have no doubt that this Greek team as a team in the NBA wouldn't even make the playoffs. It's just that different.
Team USA has gotta figure out how to adjust in their limited time together.
piksi
Hall of Famer
It is a different game. One promotes team game and skills. The other promotes stars and athelticism. FIBA promotes the sport. NBA promotes the show / money
No, the wouldn't make it. The are not atheltic enough and they would never get any calls
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Kev.in
Starter
Coach K really got outclassed last night. You can say all this mess about guys not getting calls because it's FIBA or how one side emphasizes one thing over the other thing but the fact is that last night the Greeks were completely outmatched until midway through the 2nd quarter. Their coach made the changes and Coach K looked like he was having a panic attack by the end of the first half. Then we had to hear Fran Frischilla keep bringing up that the US needs to switch everything while Coach K continues to lose his composure.
When Greece tried to play the style that FIBA/Euro fans consider "real" basketball, they were looking like a bunch of old men. When they went to the pick and roll exclusively to exploit individual mismatches (like they do in the NBA) they caught fire and their confidence was sky high. For the last few years I keep seeing Euro fans complaining that the pick and roll is killing their game, that it's not real basketball. But here you have the European Champion using NBA basketball to win. It was attacking the basket and spotting up for threes. Jeff Van Gundy would love to coach a group of guys like this.
There is NO WAY the NBA should change their rules to match the FIBA rules in any way. These tournaments aren't the be-all end-all. It sucks to lose, but from October to June who cares about the international game? If anyone should change, it's FIBA. They've got professionals playing by amateurish rules.
The US needs to either make a year-round team to go to these tournaments and have them actually spend some time together and have a coach who'll give them something to work with on offense, or they need to just stop caring and stop talking about how they want to win these things.
When Greece tried to play the style that FIBA/Euro fans consider "real" basketball, they were looking like a bunch of old men. When they went to the pick and roll exclusively to exploit individual mismatches (like they do in the NBA) they caught fire and their confidence was sky high. For the last few years I keep seeing Euro fans complaining that the pick and roll is killing their game, that it's not real basketball. But here you have the European Champion using NBA basketball to win. It was attacking the basket and spotting up for threes. Jeff Van Gundy would love to coach a group of guys like this.
There is NO WAY the NBA should change their rules to match the FIBA rules in any way. These tournaments aren't the be-all end-all. It sucks to lose, but from October to June who cares about the international game? If anyone should change, it's FIBA. They've got professionals playing by amateurish rules.
The US needs to either make a year-round team to go to these tournaments and have them actually spend some time together and have a coach who'll give them something to work with on offense, or they need to just stop caring and stop talking about how they want to win these things.
Sac.Kings
All-Star
I was not impressed by the US this tournament. When they learn to play like a real team, thats when they will start winning tournaments again. I am not surprised at all by their loss to Greece, they had it coming. By the way, anyone know the name of the Greece dude nicknamed "baby Shaq"?
Kev.in
Starter
and there is no way that this is the best possible thing that could happen to USA Basketball or anything remotely positive. The best possible thing would be if Coach K actually lived up to the hype, the US did something to establish a half-court offensive identity and they won the whole thing. That would get players even more interested, would build the confidence and in 2008 they'd be stronger. There was still a whole lot of talent sitting at home for the US, the type of players that the US wanted but didn't get. The talent at home was still better than the talent that was sent. Winning the gold in this tournament would've gotten certain other players more interested in joining up for the Olympics. Why would they want to join now?
It's only been three tournaments for three of them.
vladetomiller
Bench
while you make very good points on the other side, I disagree with the amateurish rules comment. That is what basketball is all about, NBA changed it rules to better fit the TV audience and the American public, hyped up super stars to bring attention to the league and are drowned in it.
The game was never designed to award the game to the best dunking team, or the team with the best indivual players who can take it to the ring, it was intended to find out which team can put the ball more into the hole by utilizing all 5 players on the court. NBA is a different version of streetball, playing one on one or two on two.
NBA is also about ensuring that star players are treated differently, PJ knows this very well and takes advantage of it. When all other coaches would take any player with 3 fouls in the first half out, he leaves the star players in cos he knows the refs will have a very tough time calling that 4th foul and the refs will really not want to call that foul. he is taking advantage of the situation and I know sometimes they do get called on the 4th but that is rare. Compare that to international games where the refs dont care who the players are, sure they also make mistakes but they dont make mistakes intentionally.
Why are the lakers and heat playing again on christmas day, is there no other better game they could have, why not heat and the mavs. Stern knows that he can take some mileage out of that kobe shaq thing which imo was a whole big drama. Why not the spurs vs suns, mavs vs spurs etc etc who are supposed to be more team oriented. We will watch the game but the non nba fans who aer on the border would want to watch shaq and kobe and not some team from texas. Until Stern is around we can continue to predict the nba champs and we can be sure of a failure at the world level.
Geoff
Starter
Talent had nothing to do with why the USA lost;the USA had the most talent in the entire tournament. That word you mentioned is exactly why the USA lost: "hype."
If the USA learns from this and realizes that IT must adjust to the world and not vice versa, then they will be world champions again. Until then, the NBA is just about making money, but global ball will be where the real respect is at. Take what was built upon, learn from the humiliation, dominance will be yours again. Focus less upon the star, and more upon the team, and you'll see what happens. Maybe the NBA SHOULD adopt more FIBA rules.
CruzDude
Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
USA had most offensive talent. But as the Greeks showed, USA does not have much defensive talent or defensive mind set. Getting eaten up by the pick & roll is ridiculous. Even Stockton to Malone only got them to the finals once.
And where is the USA P & R? The greeks were smart and the USA stood around and watched. This is a BEST lesson to the USA on what they have to do to win in all in FIBA tournaments.
And where is the USA P & R? The greeks were smart and the USA stood around and watched. This is a BEST lesson to the USA on what they have to do to win in all in FIBA tournaments.
Kev.in
Starter
I disagree that the US has to adjust to the world. They're not losing to Germany and Italy anymore, it's the top teams the ones that are the most serious about putting together a team. We're getting there, we just have to get more serious about it. For Greeece, Spain and Argentina it's easier to build a team because every player is on the same page and ready to go every summer. In the US, you've got an idea in mind of what the team should look like and then you have to pick from leftovers when guys get hurt or pull out. They should do a better job of picking from the leftovers, but it could be different.
Maybe I'm too young to remember these rule changes you talk of, vladetomiller, but at no point did the NBAs rules (or even some of the court dimensions) resemble what FIBA has. It's always been a different game. If anything, FIBA is the derivative, the alternate flavor.
I don't get how the predictability of the NBA Finals winner correlates with USA Basketball's struggles in international play. The past few seasons it actually has been as unpredictable as ever. The era of the dynasty might be over (for a while at least). On the other hand, when dynasties have ruled the NBA that's been when the USA was a lock for the gold. So you actually got it completely backwards. Right now is an unstable time in American basketball. Older players are fading, younger players are still years from their prime and we've got a college coach trying to lead us to a bronze medal.
Maybe I'm too young to remember these rule changes you talk of, vladetomiller, but at no point did the NBAs rules (or even some of the court dimensions) resemble what FIBA has. It's always been a different game. If anything, FIBA is the derivative, the alternate flavor.
I don't get how the predictability of the NBA Finals winner correlates with USA Basketball's struggles in international play. The past few seasons it actually has been as unpredictable as ever. The era of the dynasty might be over (for a while at least). On the other hand, when dynasties have ruled the NBA that's been when the USA was a lock for the gold. So you actually got it completely backwards. Right now is an unstable time in American basketball. Older players are fading, younger players are still years from their prime and we've got a college coach trying to lead us to a bronze medal.
Kev.in
Starter
You can't just tell or force players to make great passes, it's a result of talent. The '02 Kings were a very talented team. Changing the rules isn't going to turn Chris Kaman into Vlade Divac and Stromile Swift into Chris Webber. In a league with 30 teams, it's inevitable that there will be specialists in most lineups.
Hence the reason I said to start young to develop that talent better or, gasp, look for different kids that are better team players instead of the one kid who can dunk really well. I'm talking the future, not the present.
nbrans
All-Star
The thing is, this team had guys who could function as role and team players -- Miller as a shooter (who could have stopped Miller from raining down 3s?), Howard as an inside presence, Battier as a perimeter defender. But Coach K didn't play them. This team should have been able to beat anyone. I haven't seen the game yet, but from what I've read so far it seems like Coach K was outclassed.
you should listen more to the "old chaps" around here. here is a link to the list of all fiba medallists from the beginning:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIBA_World_Championship
count how many gold medals usa won please.
all in all, there are some excellent posts in this thread about why team usa is not succeeding. those who say kobe should have made a difference are still insisting on missing the whole point: this is a "team" sport. i find it ironic, especially at a kings site, how the concept of a team alludes most people.
^^Excellent points, twocents. TEAM USA could take some pointers from the Sacramento Monarchs, who are truly taking team play and ... DEFENSE ... to a level rarely seen by a team with the name "Sacramento" on the front.
Until and unless the US can get back to having a team with the real team mindset, we aren't going to win much at the international level.
Until and unless the US can get back to having a team with the real team mindset, we aren't going to win much at the international level.
this is where you are wrong: your role players might be allright, your star players are not. count how many times lebron or wade frowns with incredulity when a ref dares to whistle against him, even though it is the right call. the star players are not used to equal treatment.
Geoff
Starter
Historically, international ball has been around longer than the NBA. From Wikipedia...
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National Basketball Association
In 1946, the National Basketball Association was formed, organizing the top professional teams and leading to greater popularity of the professional game. The first game was played in Toronto, Canada between the Toronto Huskies and New York Knickerbockers on November 1st, 1946. An upstart organization, the American Basketball Association, emerged in 1967 and briefly threatened the NBA's dominance until the rival leagues merged in 1976. Today the NBA is the top professional basketball league in the world in terms of popularity, salaries, talent, and level of competition.
The NBA has featured many famous players, including George Mikan, the first dominating "big man"; ball-handling wizard Bob Cousy and defensive genius Bill Russell of the Boston Celtics; Wilt Chamberlain, who originally played for the barnstorming Harlem Globetrotters; all-around stars Oscar Robertson and Jerry West; more recent big men Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Shaquille O'Neal; playmaker John Stockton; and the four players who many credit with ushering the professional game to its highest level of popularity: Julius Erving, Larry Bird, Earvin "Magic" Johnson, and Michael Jordan.
The NBA-backed Women's National Basketball Association (WNBA) began 1997. Though it had an insecure opening season, several marquee players (Sheryl Swoopes, Lisa Leslie and Sue Bird among others) helped the league's popularity and level of competition. Other professional women's basketball leagues in the United States, such as the American Basketball League (1996-1998), have folded in part because of the popularity of the WNBA.
In 2001, the NBA formed a developmental league, the NBDL. The league currently has 8 teams, but will add 7 more for the 2006-2007 season.
[edit]
International basketball
The International Basketball Federation was formed in 1932 by eight founding nations: Argentina, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Italy, Latvia, Portugal, Romania and Switzerland. At this time, the organization only oversaw amateur players. Its acronym, in French, was thus FIBA; the "A" standing for amateur.
Basketball was first included in the Olympic Games in 1936, although a demonstration tournament was held in 1904. This competition has usually been dominated by the United States, whose team has won all but three titles, the first loss in a controversial final game in Munich in 1972 against the Soviet Union. In 1950 the first Basketball World Championship for men was held in Argentina. Three years later, the first World Championships for women were held in Chile. Women's basketball was added to the Olympics in 1976, with teams such as Brazil and Australia rivaling the American squads.
FIBA dropped the distinction between amateur and professional players in 1989, and in 1992, professional players played for the first time in the Olympic Games. The United States' dominance continued with the introduction of their Dream Team. However, with developing programs elsewhere, other national teams are starting to catch up with the United States. A team made entirely of NBA players finished sixth in the 2002 World Championships in Indianapolis, behind Yugoslavia, Argentina, Germany, New Zealand and Spain. In the 2004 Athens Olympics, the United States suffered its first Olympic loss while using professional players, falling to Puerto Rico and Lithuania in group games. It eventually won the bronze medal defeating Lithuania, finishing behind Argentina and Italy. (It should be noted, however, that of the twelve players originally selected by the NBA, only Tim Duncan and Allen Iverson chose to play; the rest of the team was put together from second and third choices.)
Worldwide, basketball tournaments are held for boys and girls of all age levels, from five- and six-year-olds (called biddy-biddy), to high school, college, and the professional leagues.
The global popularity of the sport is reflected in the nationalities represented in the NBA. Players from all over the globe can be found in NBA teams. Steve Nash, who won the 2005 and 2006 NBA MVP award, is Canadian; Dallas Mavericks superstar Dirk Nowitzki is German; All-Star Pau Gasol of the Memphis Grizzlies is from Spain; and the San Antonio Spurs feature three stars from outside the United States: Tim Duncan of the U.S. Virgin Islands, Manu Ginobili of Argentina (like Chicago Bulls player Andrés Nocioni) and Tony Parker of France. (Duncan competes for the United States internationally.)
The all-tournament team at the most recent Basketball World Championship held in 2002 in Indianapolis demonstrates the globalization of the game equally dramatically. The team featured Nowitzki, Ginobili, Peja Stojakovic of Yugoslavia (now of Serbia), Yao Ming of China, and Pero Cameron of New Zealand; all except Cameron were or became NBA players.
nbrans
All-Star
The star players still dominated when they had the ball, no matter how much they frowned. The problem, as Brick said, is that when you have three star players on the court at the same time they pretty much negate each other and they aren't used to helping a team with the ball in their hands. Carmelo, Wade and LeBron might be the best three players in the world, but there is only one ball and those guys probably shouldn't have been on the court together in long stretches. I agree with those who are saying they didn't play like a team, but the problem wasn't with the roster. There were team players available, Coach K wasn't playing them.
watch today's game against greece, then if you still think what you say in this quote is the case, we will have a discussion. the team usa did not play against the basketball elite until they faced greece. dominating poor teams' defences is worthless if you ask me.
as for k being outcoached, that is not exactly his fault, actually. he has to juggle ego's so that they do not mess with team chemistry. i am thinking that the real objective was the olympics. dwight howard was the one who made the game closer in the second quarter, but apparently, k, upset with him for missing a defensive assignment, benched him for good. the only logical explanation for that benching is that he did not really care for this tournament. hell, i don't believe this theory myself. yannakis outcoached him, plain and simple.
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Kev.in
Starter
On the topic of the coaching, I thought it was a dumb move to have Joe Johnson starting instead of Shane Battier. I was a little concerned even at that point, wondering where Coach K's head was at. Shane Battier is the type of guy you need out there against a team like Greece. Is it possible that Coach K knew less about the Greeks than you or I did? He's definitely familiar with the type of player that Battier is, so if he knew the way Greece would play why wouldn't he have Battier in there?
Kev.in
Starter
That doesn't explain anything about the alleged rule changes the NBA has made. It doesn't matter who made a league first. Before anyone makes an organized league, the sport has to establish itself first. It came from America and it doesn't really matter if someone else set up an amateur league a few years before the NBA came about. The NBA has evolved out of a clear lineage of an American made game. If FIBA is marked as the origin of the international game, then they were a couple of decades late.
Geoff
Starter
The NBA is the premier basketball league in the world, but don't mistake it as the end-all-be-all of basketball. The NBA primarily is a PRODUCT geared towards making MONEY, and rules have changed in the NBA to better sell the product and make it attractive to viewers. To state that the global game should change its rules to fit the NBA is quite arrogant. Rules were set up from the invention of the game, and each league has adopted its own rules as it sees fit for various occasions. While it is obvious from recent results that NBA skills do not automatically equal international ball dominance, that doesn't mean that there is something lacking from either game. It simply means that you have to be aware of the differences and be ready to couter-act when the time comes. A country-specific league is much MUCH different from an international game to determine who really is the best in the world.
FYI, the inventor of basketball was Canadian.
The point was that FIBA predates the NBA; so do their rules.
This, on the other hand, is a misnomer; Dr. Naismith was, in fact, Canadian-born, but he invented the game while working as a coach for Springfield College in Springfield, Massachussetts. The game was invented in the United States, and first played in the United States. The fact that the inventor was born in Canada does not make it inherently a Canadian game. Basketball was played in the US years before it made it up to Canada.
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