USA vs Greece (Live thread)

#61
This, on the other hand, is a misnomer; Dr. Naismith was, in fact, Canadian-born, but he invented the game while working as a coach for Springfield College in Springfield, Massachussetts. The game was invented in the United States, and first played in the United States. The fact that the inventor was born in Canada does not make it inherently a Canadian game. Basketball was played in the US years before it made it up to Canada.
duly noted...

one more article for now... http://www.realgm.com/src_twoplusthefoul/128/20060901/lost_in_translation_usa_basketball_in_japan/
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With Coach K starring as Bill Murray, American basketball’s best visited Japan. At least Murray’s journey was given an unexpected jolt by Scarlett Johansson. For Coach K and his players, the results were as predictable as another Terrell Owens fight with management.

Just as predictable is the coming wave of excuses by the USA team’s defenders. We’ve heard them all before, and now we’re about to hear them again: The team didn’t have enough time to prepare. Too few outside shooters were selected by the powers-that-be. Kobe got hurt. All we really have to do is learn how to defend the pick-and-roll. The international referees have it in for us Americans. The players suffered from Bill Murray-like fatigue from their Far East journeys.

It’s time to tune out, once and for all, every one of these excuses. The truth is now staring us all in the face: The type of basketball we play in the United States is simply no longer competitive with the kind of basketball played by the rest of the world.

Now, don’t take this the wrong way. The NBA -- and, presumably, the NBA’s fans, since David Stern is an acknowledged master of his craft -- prefer a game based on individual greatness, with high-flying feats of power and grace and with little emphasis on teamwork. There’s nothing wrong with that – nothing, that is, unless we expect Team U.S.A. to win international basketball competitions.

Let’s face facts: The Greek team that defeated the Americans did not have a single player who would star on an NBA team – and probably not more than one or two players who could even make an NBA squad. Yet the Greeks controlled most of the game against the Americans. This happened because American-style, individual basketball is simply not competitive against international, teamwork-focused players – even if not one of those international players could ever get a Nike shoe contract (despite the fact Nike is named for the Greek Goddess of Victory).

The harsh reality is that American basketball fans have two choices. Choice Number One: We can question the entire premise of how basketball is played in the United States and force the NBA to confront the fact that the League’s rules and star system virtually ensure that individualism will triumph consistently over teamwork. Just the opposite is true internationally, of course. Everything that is wrong with the U.S.A.’s play internationally is a product of everything that we have rewarded in American domestic play.

There is a second choice: We can simply accept that we are no longer competitively superior internationally and continue to enjoy the individual accomplishments of NBA stars.

Either one of these two choices is acceptable because, after all, we’re only talking about basketball games here. What’s no longer acceptable, though, is for American fans to continue to pretend that somehow our game is superior. Unless we face reality, the U.S.A., the world’s only remaining military superpower, is going to be the hoops version of what France has become – a one-time superpower that still thinks of herself as a superpower when in fact those days are long gone.

And if we refuse to face up to the facts, American basketball will continue to be lost in translation, and our players and coaches will be doomed to wander aimlessly, Bill Murray-like, around the world basketball landscape for years to come.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#62
you should listen more to the "old chaps" around here. here is a link to the list of all fiba medallists from the beginning:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIBA_World_Championship

count how many gold medals usa won please.
I think that there are many arguements that could be made to support the opinion that international basketball has caught up with and/or surpassed US basketball, but I don't really think that this is one of them. I mean, you say "count the gold medals" and, while I'll grant you that the USA doesn't have the most gold medals, they're still tied for second-most golds, and no country has more total medals, so it's not like the US "sucks" or can't compete. Also, while the US has only won three out of fifteen World Championship gold medals, they've also one twelve out of sixteen Olympic gold medals, including three of the last four; personally, I was much more surprised to see the US come up short in the Olympics than I was to see them come up short in '02, or even this year.

I've always felt as though one big problem is a difference of opinion between the US and the rest of the world: the United States at large seems to feel as though the Olympics are the "whole f'n show" when it comes to international competition, whereas the rest of the world seems to think that the WC's are. If we come up short in the Olympics again, then I'll be worried but, right now, I'm only mildly disappointed, because I personally wasn't brought up to think that the WCs are a big deal, and haven't particularly been compelled to change my mind as an adult. And why would I have done? Even after FIBA opened its doors to pros, The US still didn't take the WCs seriously... look at the guys they sent to Seoul in '98: Stacey "Plastic Man" Augmon, Vernell "Bimbo" Coles, Willie "Who" Anderson, Herman "JR" Reid, Hersey F. Hawkins, a washed-up Danny Manning, and even more washed-up Dan Majerle, and two guys named Charles Smith trying to back up David Robinson and Mitch Richmond. Does that read like the roster of a country that took the tournament seriously?

Personally I would rather have a team of players (say the sacramento Kings) play in the worlds than a grouping of NBS "stars" I bet it would net better results as well.
I'll co-sign this; I'm old enough to remember when the NBA champions used to play whoever was considered to be the best international team during the NBA's offseason and, as near as I can recall, the NBA champions beat the top international team every single time. I'd bet even money that the Miami Heat would beat whichever team wins the WC gold medal in a best-of-seven series four games to one.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#63
http://www.realgm.com/src_twoplusthefoul/128/20060901/lost_in_translation_usa_basketball_in_japan/
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<< part with the columnist trying and failing to be clever snipped >>

... It’s time to tune out, once and for all, every one of these excuses. The truth is now staring us all in the face: The type of basketball we play in the United States is simply no longer competitive with the kind of basketball played by the rest of the world.

Now, don’t take this the wrong way. The NBA -- and, presumably, the NBA’s fans, since David Stern is an acknowledged master of his craft -- prefer a game based on individual greatness, with high-flying feats of power and grace and with little emphasis on teamwork. There’s nothing wrong with that – nothing, that is, unless we expect Team U.S.A. to win international basketball competitions.

Let’s face facts: The Greek team that defeated the Americans did not have a single player who would star on an NBA team – and probably not more than one or two players who could even make an NBA squad. Yet the Greeks controlled most of the game against the Americans. This happened because American-style, individual basketball is simply not competitive against international, teamwork-focused players...
I think that this is also a misnomer. I actually agree with the principle that the me-first, individual style that permeates the NBA is inferior to the more team-based concept, but I disagree with the idea that the writer seems to be expressing that team basketball is unique to international basketball. They teach these kids to play team basketball in college (the ones that bother to go), and the best teams in the NBA still play team basketball. The problem is that the best teams in the NBA don't play in the World Championships or the Olympics. And neither do the best team players...

That's what it is, really. American basketball isn't flawed: there's no shortage of great fundamental team play in college in the United States. A big problem is that, instead of selecting a team, and giving them more than five weeks to try and create a team dynamic, and instead of picking team players that will mesh together well, the people picking the US Men's basketball team are trying to throw the best individual players in the league together on a bus and say, "go be a team now."
 
#64
I think that there are many arguements that could be made to support the opinion that international basketball has caught up with and/or surpassed US basketball, but I don't really think that this is one of them. I mean, you say "count the gold medals" and, while I'll grant you that the USA doesn't have the most gold medals, they're still tied for second-most golds, and no country has more total medals, so it's not like the US "sucks" or can't compete.
that was not my point. the guy i quoted was talking about how the american team used to dominate the international competition and it was a "lock for gold". that was just to refute the myth.

as for the olympics, i am pretty sure the american amateurs were much better than the rest of the world in the past. remember, until recently, the pro athletes were not allowed to compete in events like football, basketball, etc. and obviously the rest of the world was seriously behind the american level of play. the dream team was named as such for a reason after all. but nba has changed its face, its rules, its understanding and presentation of the game. that has, in my opinion, and i keep saying this, generated a new kind of basketball. i don't like this new kind. i like watching teams like greece, spain or argentina (well, today ginobili tried to do it all by himself, a la nba, and he failed); they are playing as the game is meant to be played. kudos for them. as for the american nt, i think it is becoming harder and harder as the college stage where the young players are meant to become sound and disciplined basketball players is being taken out of the loop.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#65
I don't disagree that the NBA has changed (not sure if 'evolved' is the right choice of words) into something different from the original intent of basketball, but I don't know that it's appreciably different from when the Dream Team played in '92, and probably ever since Stern took over the league in '85 (or was it '84?).

As for preferred style, I still think that basketball is being played at its highest level, by the best players, in the NBA. There's little argument that the team game is exceptional in international basketball, but I don't think that it's as cut-and-dry as saying that they're the best; I still think that the best players are in the NBA, and that the best teams are in the NBA. Spain and Greece's NTs will beat a team made up of NBA All-Stars any day of the week, but that doesn't mean that they could win the NBA title. Like I mentioned before, I don't think that Spain or Greece could beat the Miami Heat or the Detroit Pistons or the San Antonio Spurs or the Dallas Mavericks four times out of seven, even if they were playing under FIBA rules, with FIBA refs officiating.

A well-coached team with average to slightly-above-average athletes will beat a not-as-well-coached group of individuals with great athletes most times, especially in a single-elimination tournament. But a well-coached team with great athletes will win over a well-coached team with average to slightly-above-average athletes more often than not. Or, as the saying goes in wrestling, a good big man will beat a good little man any day.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#66
This team, as currently constructed, could/should eventualyl get back to winning gold anyway. Remember that one thng that has always held back the recent US incarnations is that they are not really teams at all -- the Greeks have played together for years, and frankly this is their big show. What they practice for. The US has consistently been sending over teams of tourists. Well, this team wasn't composed of tourists. These guys were in it for the longer haul, or at least that's the reputation. But being in it for the longer haul only pays off in, well, the longer haul. This was still the first tournament this team has ever played together. And they were very very young. And they will probably still net a bronze and go 8-1 or whatever for the tournament. Not what they were aiming for, but not bad for a bunch of kids in their first competition together.

If they stay together, practice together, end up becoming a team, making up an 8 point bulge to the Greeks really shouldn't be that difficult, especially given the upside of so many of the guys.

Doesn't change the structural issues, the need to tweak, the need for USA Basketball to smell the coffee in some of its roster choices given the alternative ruleset. But even doing most of it wrong, this same squad will have an excellent chance at gold in the upcoming years. This was just year 1, and talented as they may be, its not often a young team in year 1 wins it all over veteran teams who have been together forever.
 
#67
The US lost because the Greeks outdid them in two major areas, experience and basketball IQ. The experience will come if the team stays together, basketball IQ is the hard part.

Personnel wise, I didn't like two things about the roster: Lack of inside presence, and lack of Coach K establishing one. Sure, it's the international game, but that doesn't mean you can't take advantage of talented big men. Look at Gasol and Spain in the tournament, he dominated inside against everyone.

The other was still lack of consistent outside shooting, especially at the point. I like Paul, but I think the team needed an outside assassin somewhere on the roster.
 
#69


I'll co-sign this; I'm old enough to remember when the NBA champions used to play whoever was considered to be the best international team during the NBA's offseason and, as near as I can recall, the NBA champions beat the top international team every single time. I'd bet even money that the Miami Heat would beat whichever team wins the WC gold medal in a best-of-seven series four games to one.

When did they stop doing that, and why? That would be a series to watch, I'd follow it for sure.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#70
When did they stop doing that, and why? That would be a series to watch, I'd follow it for sure.
It was never more than an exhibition thing the NBA teams would do in preseason.

NBA players play a lot more basketball than the international guys do, let alone when you factor in the playoffs. A player on a title team can easily end up playing in more than 100 games in the season. In Europe its more like 60. To take a team that played through that entire grind and then essentially penalize them for winning the title by forcing them to play extra games over the summer for no reason makes little sense. And in some cases might even be impractical with shared players.
 
#71
watch today's game against greece, then if you still think what you say in this quote is the case, we will have a discussion. the team usa did not play against the basketball elite until they faced greece. dominating poor teams' defences is worthless if you ask me.

as for k being outcoached, that is not exactly his fault, actually. he has to juggle ego's so that they do not mess with team chemistry. i am thinking that the real objective was the olympics. dwight howard was the one who made the game closer in the second quarter, but apparently, k, upset with him for missing a defensive assignment, benched him for good. the only logical explanation for that benching is that he did not really care for this tournament. hell, i don't believe this theory myself. yannakis outcoached him, plain and simple.
ok, I watched the game. I still think that Coach K was completely outcoached. Had he switched to a zone it might have been a very different outcome.

Offensively Team USA looked pretty good. Yeah, there were missed 3's and missed free throws, but that is going to happen from time to time. Carmelo was great on offense (and offense only), and there were only a few scoring droughts. Defensively on the other hand...

Among the many things I don't understand about this game:

I don't understand why Coach K insisted on having a point guard out there. Paul and Hinrich were absolutely atrocious on both offense and defense (Hinrich made a few threes, but also made many poor decisions). Why couldn't have Wade or LeBron brought the ball up? It's not as if they were getting into an offense.

I don't understand why Brad Miller didn't play. Greece packed the inside and made it very difficult to penetrate. Why not put Brad out there to spread the floor? And Brad is actually pretty good guarding pick and rolls, it's one of the few things he's good at defensively. Stupid, stupid.

Carmelo was great on offense, but holy crap was he terrible on defense. He would have needed four defensive specialists to cover for his lapses. But again.. why not try a zone?

Howard was great rebounding and terrible on defense. Maybe a zone would have helped?

Greece... not a good outside shooting team and not good rebounders. WHY NOT A ZONE?

I don't understand why Coach K went small. Greece's bigs were killing Team USA time and again, and Battier was the CENTER some of the time. Bosh was abysmal, but surely Brand, Howard and Miller could have goten the job done?

I hope Coach K has nightmares for the next two years... "I should have put them in a zone... I should have put them in a zone..."
 
#72
Alot of people have been saying that European players have alot more practice. Like that they have been together longer and playing together more. That is not true. All other players in the world (Europeans, Africans, South Americans, Asians, anything) also play in their leagues in their countries. Yes, some of them might play together on their league teams, but that is not very often at all. Also, alot of international players are in the NBA too. I would think that American NBA players know eachother just as well as international players do.
 

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#73
USA Team really missed Kobe, Gilbert...etc..

....BRAD MILLER! They really could have used him in this game. Why didn't the US utilize one of the best pick and roll players in the world! They should have pick and rolled the Greeks to death with Brad and Hinrich.

I hate the small ball lineup they put out on the floor. I knew it was only a matter of time before they ran into a team with bigs that can shoot the lights out and punish them down low.

I don't even think bronze is a lock to tell the truth.
 

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#74
Actually that's STILL not the problem -- that's just the political angle from younger nations wihtout the star talents.

One problem of course is just youth -- an intentional move to build long term, but still sending out a very young team into unfamiliar surroundings to play experienced teams under a derivative ruleset. Almost like the college All-Star teams we used to send back in the 80s.

Another of course remains the shooting -- still amazes me that we once again did not respect how dramatically FIBA rules can alter the balance of the game. Had Brad around to wave a towel, but otherwise? Nope. All the same style of penetrating player once again in a rules variation directly designed to disadvantage such players.

And finally, and most on point, a major problem is, and has been for some time, having TOO MANY stars. Having a star or two is incredibly useful in basketball -- ANY basketball -- but even with a better looking effort, the US team was still built by piling up as many star players as possible. Does not work. Is unlikely to start working. Star players can only function as star players if they have the ball in their hands. When they do not have the ball in their hands, they are rarely that effective. Thus, given that there is only one ball, the U.S. does NOT have its best, or close to best team out on the floor. When forced to play off the ball you might be better having Robert Horry (well, when younger) than LeBron James.


Nonetheless, the foundation was clearly rebuilt this time out, and elements of this core seem quite likely to win gold at some point in the not too distant future. The focus on getting it done is finally there. But the incredibly slow learnign curve of the people who put these teams together remains something to behold. Figured out the dedicated team part of the equation, but little else.

DIng Ding Ding. They had 4-5 iso players out there at a time taking turns doing nothing. That is not balanced at all.
 
#75
I think some people underestimate the Greek players and their talent...Check what the USA players said:

ELTON BRAND
About Greece's pick and roll:
We began the game just trying to show and stay attached and that kind of hurt us, because we had somewhat of a smaller lineup and they’ve got big guys rolling to hoop with someone smaller picking them up. We tried to make an adjustment to switch and that fared better.
Were you surprised by their defense at times?
Somewhat surprised, but they played a great game. They got hot when they needed to and hit some big shots. We couldn’t separate ourself in the first half when it got to nine or 10 points. They’d get fouled and knocked down their foul shots. They hit a big three off the glass. They did everything they needed to do to win the game. They hustled hard. They won.

Is it a bad day for team USA?
I’m very disappointed, but it is a three year commitment the guys made. It’s a step. Some guys have played in the Olympics. I’ve played in prior World Championships. The guys know what we have to do in order to win.

What do you think about the Greek team?
The Greek team is a great team. Not just in this tournament, if they played in the NBA or whatever they’d be a good team. They have shooters, they have guys who can defend, they have big guys who can do decent things in the paint. They should be proud of themselves. We take our hats off to them.

http://www.usabasketball.com/seniormen/2006/06_mwc_game8_quotes.html
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#76
Alot of people have been saying that European players have alot more practice. Like that they have been together longer and playing together more. That is not true. All other players in the world (Europeans, Africans, South Americans, Asians, anything) also play in their leagues in their countries. Yes, some of them might play together on their league teams, but that is not very often at all. Also, alot of international players are in the NBA too. I would think that American NBA players know eachother just as well as international players do.

Hardly -- the very bounty of U.S. talent, not to mention much larger country, make that almost impossible. The same 20 or so guys are likely to rotate through a particular international NT for years and years. Not only that, but who plays what role etc. takes a long time to change. There are only a limited pool of top talents, and they are routinely tapped. The U.S. team on the other hand is assembled on the fly every time out, and rarely do you have more than one or two guys as holdovers for even two competitions. Everything is new everytime. Coaches, players, and for the majority of the guys its the first time they have ever played with each other, for the coach, or under the unfamilar rules system.

The new system of trying to get guys to sign up longer term may correct that to some degree. But it will take time, and its still unlikely to result in the same sort of longterm been playing together on and off since we were teenagers sort of unity that a smaller nation often has.
 
#77
Hardly -- the very bounty of U.S. talent, not to mention much larger country, make that almost impossible. The same 20 or so guys are likely to rotate through a particular international NT for years and years. Not only that, but who plays what role etc. takes a long time to change. There are only a limited pool of top talents, and they are routinely tapped. The U.S. team on the other hand is assembled on the fly every time out, and rarely do you have more than one or two guys as holdovers for even two competitions. Everything is new everytime. Coaches, players, and for the majority of the guys its the first time they have ever played with each other, for the coach, or under the unfamilar rules system.

The new system of trying to get guys to sign up longer term may correct that to some degree. But it will take time, and its still unlikely to result in the same sort of longterm been playing together on and off since we were teenagers sort of unity that a smaller nation often has.
all of this is part of the problem, but much of the US team's overall problem stemmed from a lack of perimeter defense and outside shooting. here's a simple remedy: bruce bowen. the cuts made to team USA were not done in the interest of a balanced team, but in the interest of flashy, young, superstars. i'm gonna say this right now, there is absolutely NO need for lebron james, carmelo anthony, and dwayne wade on the same team. one of them's gotta go, and preferably either carmelo or lebron, considering they play the same position.
 
#78
i'm gonna say this right now, there is absolutely NO need for lebron james, carmelo anthony, and dwayne wade on the same team. one of them's gotta go, and preferably either carmelo or lebron, considering they play the same position.

If that's the case, then I would say keep Carmelo since he played much better than James..but that would never happen, he's Stern's golden boy.
 
#79
If that's the case, then I would say keep Carmelo since he played much better than James..but that would never happen, he's Stern's golden boy.
well...i certainly don't if it that's the case...its just my opinion. but i happen to agree. i think wade is the most ready of the three for international competition because he's so unselfish. james has got all the talent in the world, but he's a pure american baller. a whole lotta skill, a whole lotta flash, but no real sense of what international competition is all about. carmelo was a warrior for the US, and kinda stole the show. based on his performance, i say he's who the US should keep over james.

i also think coach k was a mistake. i would have chosen scott skiles or mike d'antoni or any of the number of nba head coaches with international experience, or at least with overseas connections. coach k doesn't really have that international experience, and he doesn't really have much experience with nba-level talent. he helps cultivate nba-level talent, and he sends nba-level talent to the big show, but he isn't exposed to nba-level talent after they've been immersed in the environment, which is of course much different than the college environment. coach k is a great coach, and the US officials in charge of organizing this commitment to international competition had the necessary intentionality and had their hearts in the right place, but i don't think it was the right decision.
 

HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
#80
For some time now I have thought we ought to just let the the reining NBA champs represent the US. Allow them to replace any player from outside the US, injured playres and opt outs, but let the geinging coch SELECT the replacements. That way you have a high quality team and coach who have some experience playing together in a system. Allows for contenuity and a simplified process fo selection. If thge coach wnats to bring in coaching staff with more international experience cool. But the bottom line is that no matter what the hot shots wnat you too belive basketball is a TEAM sport end of story. Americans asa group just have a hard time getting it through their skulls that the team with the best players is not allways the best team.
 
#81
I think LeBron and Carmelo were very effective playing together, especially considering they had no set plays to run and had to freelance it all. LeBron was at least capable of finding Carmelo for lots of wide open looks during those stretches when Melo was scoring at will. Those two have an on-court chemistry that we need and LeBron can play some point guard. Personally I like big backcourts, especially with FIBA rules. I don't even consider them to be the same position really. They're both swingmen, but you need two swingmen out there. To me, they should be two of the main building blocks and behind them should be Tayshaun Prince type of role players.

Coach K was definitely a mistake. He was in way over his head but I don't know if there is even any thought within USA Basketball of replacing him. The hope is that he learns from his mistakes. If he doesn't learn, then maybe the players who are back for '07 & '08 will learn and just get the job done on their own.
 
#82
^^Excellent points, twocents. TEAM USA could take some pointers from the Sacramento Monarchs, who are truly taking team play and ... DEFENSE ... to a level rarely seen by a team with the name "Sacramento" on the front
Let's send the Monarchs next time. ;)