I, uhhhhhh…
Did someone actually just advocate taking horse dewormer in lieu of taking a vaccine that is getting fully cleared by the FDA in a couple of days?
Can’t tell if this is facetiousCan you stop being part of the MSM propaganda machine?
There is truth on both sides. Are people being vilified if unvaccinated? Yes. Plenty of examples in this thread.
Are vaccinated individuals taking unneeded risks? Yes.
Are unvaccinated individuals still more likely to have the more severe complications and are almost exclusively the ones who are still dying from Covid? Yes.
Have the vaccines shown themselves to be effective even if not the effectiveness initially touted? Yes.
Have they to date shown themselves to be safe in comparison to other vaccines? Yes.
For those in the medical field, would it not be prudent for everyone to take universal precautions. Like body fluids, treat it as contaminated irregardless of whom it came from. Treat everyone as potential carriers of Covid irregardless of vaccine status?
I say that because we are seeing more than a small number of break through cases. Personally, my sister's boyfriend was a break through case. My wife's co-worker's husband was a break through case. She came into work sick saying, "it's okay, I'm vaccinated." Despite her husband being positive while fully vaccinated. She is now positive (co-worker).
I also took the vaccine after hesitation. I plan on getting the booster when available. In public, the need to wear a mask is still there. In my office, no. If you come into my office, there's six feet from the the seats and where I am sitting.I would say it all depends on how much of a risk taker you are and what your risk and benefit ratio is. Medicine is not a black and white science and it's all boils down risk and benefit. For example, if I was to work in a field like IT that I don't have a ton of exposure to Covid and my entire family is vaccinated then I am probably more willing to take more risk since even if I or one of my family member are a breakthrough covid case, the chance of us getting sick enough to be in a hospital is fairly low. On the other hand, I work in the hospital and knee deep in Covid all day and I have a toddler at home along with having an immunocompromise sister, I have kept up my universal precaution despite being vaccinated since December.
On a side note, I got my pfizer vaccine in mid December of last year but I was definitely hesitant at first and I didn't plan on getting it unless the benefit was clear since it was very early on. By that point in December, I've already had taken care of a fair share of Covid cases and plenty of close call since I pretty much use the same N95 (they're meant for single use) for a week at time or just a surgical mask alone that I figure i would have developed some immunity due to exposure. I checked my covid antibody level and it was negative so i went ahead and got the vaccine. Had my antibody level at that point already was positive then I probably would have waited on the vaccine. Three weeks after my second shot i repeat my antibody test and it was positive. While not the most scientific experiment by any means, but it was a win win in my book. Win for the fact that masks did work in preventing from getting sick at all prior to vaccine despite exposure and win for that I know that the vaccine works. I am generally a risk averse person so to me the masking up and the vaccine clearly has a better benefit than risk.
Experts disagree on the conclusions to be drawn from clinical studies of Ivermectin, and the laboratory experiments that propelled the drug into trials in the first place suggest that it only fights the virus effectively at doses likely to be toxic.
The Mississippi State Department of Health issued an alert Friday warning against using an anti-parasite drug to treat or prevent COVID-19. The alert came as calls to the state poison control center have increased, with at least 70% being related to ingesting ivermectin – a drug commonly used for livestock.
"I certainly would strongly recommend people not take any medicine from a feed store or a veterinary source," Mississippi Health Officer Dr. Thomas Dobbs said Wednesday at a COVID-19 briefing. "It can be dangerous."
I think it was.Can’t tell if this is facetious
I would say it all depends on how much of a risk taker you are and what your risk and benefit ratio is. Medicine is not a black and white science and it's all boils down risk and benefit. For example, if I was to work in a field like IT that I don't have a ton of exposure to Covid and my entire family is vaccinated then I am probably more willing to take more risk since even if I or one of my family member are a breakthrough covid case, the chance of us getting sick enough to be in a hospital is fairly low. On the other hand, I work in the hospital and knee deep in Covid all day and I have a toddler at home along with having an immunocompromise sister, I have kept up my universal precaution despite being vaccinated since December.
On a side note, I got my pfizer vaccine in mid December of last year but I was definitely hesitant at first and I didn't plan on getting it unless the benefit was clear since it was very early on. By that point in December, I've already had taken care of a fair share of Covid cases and plenty of close call since I pretty much use the same N95 (they're meant for single use) for a week at time or just a surgical mask alone that I figure i would have developed some immunity due to exposure. I checked my covid antibody level and it was negative so i went ahead and got the vaccine. Had my antibody level at that point already was positive then I probably would have waited on the vaccine. Three weeks after my second shot i repeat my antibody test and it was positive. While not the most scientific experiment by any means, but it was a win win in my book. Win for the fact that masks did work in preventing from getting sick at all prior to vaccine despite exposure and win for that I know that the vaccine works. I am generally a risk averse person so to me the masking up and the vaccine clearly has a better benefit than risk.
It's a bit more complicated. Most of the assays to test for antibody use a technique call ELISA which is very sensitive test so even at the tiniest existing level of antibody it will be positive but that doesn't necessarily mean it's enough for neutralization. Secondly, the immune system is a bit complex. For generalization sake, antibodies has a half life of 10-30 days so with any vaccine or or natural infection, your antibodies will decrease over time. What doesn't go down that quickly are memory B and T cells and that's basically the basis of vaccine technology. Memory B cells basically store the information of the antigen (in this case the spike protein on Covid) so that when it encounters the antigen again, it can quickly mass produce antibodies right away against it. Memory B cell can circulate in your body for decade. For example, that's why booster for Tetanus vaccine can be up to 10 years once you're prime. The Tetanus vaccine is basically base on inactivated tetanus toxin. The toxin doesn't mutate so once you're developed some Memory B cells, you're good for quite some years. I guess a better test would be to detect circulating memory B cell specific to the antigen you're looking for. That's a bit harder and it's been 10-15 years since I've been involve in basic science research so I can't really comment on that. My guess is that it is probably feasible and probably done in some academic lab but not practical in the clinical setting yet.So it's been 8+ months now. Have you an antibody test done again?
You jump to some amazing conclusions. Propaganda? Hit piece? Sole purpose is to push vaccines? Completely unethical?
No, it's a reminder that the drug has not been proven to help. It may work. The science is NOT "clear". Even the drug manufacturer says not to take it for COVID. Here is what they said:
Merck Statement on Ivermectin use During the COVID-19 Pandemic - Merck.com
This is also very informative:
Ivermectin Is the New Hydroxychloroquine: Seeking the Elusive Covid Cure - Bloomberg
Do you honestly think if it worked that doctors and others wouldn't be tripping over themselves to save lives??? You espouse these conspiracy theories and ignore the reality. Doctors are doing everything they can to keep folks alive with COVID patients. If it truly worked, and was proven to work, they would prescribe it and the manufacturer would help promote it. Or do you think all the doctors around the world are intentionally withholding existing medications that work? Do you know how much money Merck could make by simply ramping up production of an existing drug they make to save lives in a pandemic???
The studies you linked indicate that it may help. GREAT! I would be happy to see a proven medication relieve the pain, suffering, and in many cases, death from COVID. Nothing would make me happier (relating to COVID sufferers, that is).
But people are literally taking horse and cow drugs and poisoning themselves (instead of getting a proven, approved vaccine to prevent the hospitalizations and deaths to begin with!). They are too ignorant to realize the difference between prescribed versions and the vet versions and the already overwhelmed doctors are now faced with dealing with these overdose victims as well. And the studies have some problems, discussed above, and the manufacturer says not to take it and hasn't done the studies that prove it would help.
In fact, if you read the info from your links, they say this:
In other words, the initial review looks promising but you need to do the work, perform the controlled studies, check dosages, and run it through the FDA for their authorization, and then they can use it. You know, rigorous studies like the vaccines went through. And if they can generate a vaccine, do the trials, and get authorization, then everyone has had plenty of time to run this existing medication (already approved for use with people in the US) to see if it truly works or not. Do the work.
I, uhhhhhh…
Did someone actually just advocate taking horse dewormer in lieu of taking a vaccine that is getting fully cleared by the FDA in a couple of days?
I know that because you don’t even know that Merck isn’t the manufacturer of Ivermectin anymore. Their patent expired decades ago.
Merck, an ivermectin manufacturer, has also said its analysis did not support the drug’s safety and efficacy for COVID-19.
That Tweet that Warhawk posted from the FDA is propaganda. The propaganda does not lie in the fact that people should not be taking animal deworming medicine. That is common sense. The propaganda lies in the article's headline "Why you should not use Ivermectin to treat or prevent COVID-19". That is the propaganda because it does not follow the studies being done in other countries where they are successfully treating people with the drug. Not the horse dewormer variety.
That's funny. So Merck decided to issue a statement on a drug they no longer manufacture? So then what is Stromectol? And why does Merck have it on their website and provide assistance for getting it for those in need? Apparently Merck tricked Reuters to say that Merck manufactures it as well?
I never said they were the ONLY manufacturer of the drug.
Stromectol PI (merck.com)
Merck Programs to Help Those in Need - Product (merckhelps.com)
WHO joins Europe, Merck in recommending against ivermectin for COVID-19 | Reuters
Look, you apparently are having a hard time understanding my statements for some reason. Let me spell it out a little simpler:
Merck (or others) have had plenty of time to run it by the FDA for approval at this point; heck, three vaccines have been developed, tested, been submitted for consideration, gone through federal review and individual state reviews after the federal review, and authorized for use as of what, February? So you are saying Merck (or others) can't put together a rigorous study on an existing drug that has already been approved for human use for parasites in the same amount of time?
- I never said it wasn't safe for use for people at the recommended dosages and intended use when prescribed by their doctor.
- I clearly said it may work for this as well but hasn't yet been proven to, at least to the satisfaction of the FDA.
- I also clearly said that I hope it does work and saves lives!
- I provided documented cases of people ignoring doctor's, the federal government's, and the manufacturer's advice and consuming veterinarian-provided drugs for large animals and poisoning themselves.
Look - it may be a wonder drug. It may cure cancer, regrow hair, straighten crooked teeth, and fix broken bones. It may even make me 20 years younger at slightly higher doses. So run the required tests / studies, document it, submit it for federal review, and no problem! But that hasn't been done at this point. And the, um, less sophisticated amongst us are ignoring common sense and consuming medicine for horses and cows and poisoning themselves because some nut on the radio or your "out there" pseudo-news channel is telling them to instead of talking to their doctors about it first. And they are the ones calling everyone else sheep!
You're being dishonest af. Why don't you just admit that you thought they were THE manufacturer of Ivermectin ? It's obvious in your post.
It also seems that you don't know what off-patent means. It means anyone can make the drug, there's hundreds of manufacturers all of the world that make Ivermectin, it's extremely low cost.
What benefit would there be for Merck to pour in millions of dollars to run a large randomized control trial for a cheap off-patent drug ? Because they have a kind heart? Get a grip.
Merck is developing Molnupiravir, there is an incentive for them to trash Ivermectin.
https://www.merck.com/news/merck-an...e-for-treatment-of-mild-to-moderate-covid-19/
You ask for a mega large randomized control trial. There's already peer reviewed meta-analyses, the highest form of medical evidence.
You ask why hasn't anyone funded a mega large trial ? You need to understand that a mega large trial costs millions of dollars to run. Most Ivermectin studies come from middle to low income countries. You make it sound so easy for someone to invest this kind of money for a generic drug.
You would also think that the NIH or one of these groups would have felt incentivized to run a large trial like that for the good of the people. Interesting that it wasn't done isn't it ?
Instead the NIH funded a trial for a novel drug called Remdesivir, which doesn't even work in the hospital phase by the way and is showing the potential to cause acute kidney toxicity. Oh and it costs 3k USD a dose, forgot that important bit.
I don't know if you are aware of this but money talks in this society. It seems you don't really understand this judging from your posts.
I really don't think he is advocating taking meds from the vets. But apparently some are. Do you remember the media response after our former president advocated a particular drug? A drug that my child takes (other reasons) and had been considered extremely safe for 70+ years was suddenly bad and extremely dangerous. Why was that?I knew Merck made it. You are the one who said they didn't, while they clearly still do. Others make it as well. So what? Why is this a hill you want to die on?
I said study or trial, but it could be whatever proof is required to establish that it works. It hasn't been provided yet, or at least to the satisfaction of the FDA.
The "peer reviewed meta-analysis" has shown it may work, but others say the data/analysis isn't sufficient or doesn't show a strong enough correlation. I'm leaving that argument to the pros who know a lot more about medicine and statistics than I do. But I'll take the word of the FDA and the NIH over an aggregation of foreign studies that show debatable results.
And I'm certainly not going to start buying livestock and pills chugging them down without better proof than that. "If it's good enough for Bessie, I guess it's good enough for me!" That's kind of the point of this discussion.
Actually, never mind, I'm vaccinated. I more almost assuredly won't have to worry about it anyways. I'll leave the mad rush to the vet for livestock meds to those who for some reason think that's a smarter option than a proven and authorized vaccine.
Edit: I'm still wondering why you are ignoring what I said. I hope it works. I hope it helps. Just do what it takes to prove it so folks can use it if it does. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? If it's the wonder drug you say it is, someone should be able to do that. And if not, then keep buying literal horse meds. Whatever makes you happy.
I knew Merck made it. You are the one who said they didn't, while they clearly still do. Others make it as well. So what? Why is this a hill you want to die on?
I said study or trial, but it could be whatever proof is required to establish that it works. It hasn't been provided yet, or at least to the satisfaction of the FDA.
The "peer reviewed meta-analysis" has shown it may work, but others say the data/analysis isn't sufficient or doesn't show a strong enough correlation. I'm leaving that argument to the pros who know a lot more about medicine and statistics than I do. But I'll take the word of the FDA and the NIH over an aggregation of foreign studies that show debatable results.
And I'm certainly not going to start buying livestock and pills chugging them down without better proof than that. "If it's good enough for Bessie, I guess it's good enough for me!" That's kind of the point of this discussion.
Actually, never mind, I'm vaccinated. I more almost assuredly won't have to worry about it anyways. I'll leave the mad rush to the vet for livestock meds to those who for some reason think that's a smarter option than a proven and authorized vaccine.
Edit: I'm still wondering why you are ignoring what I said. I hope it works. I hope it helps. Just do what it takes to prove it so folks can use it if it does. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? If it's the wonder drug you say it is, someone should be able to do that. And if not, then keep buying literal horse meds. Whatever makes you happy.
The one thing I will say about this is that while there is a vocal subset, the hesitancy to not take it goes across all subsets. One subset that definitely doesn't go where you and others are trying to box the opposition in from have at least historical justification for being apprehensive of any new vaccine. They are also a subset that Covid has hitten among the hardest and probably need it the most.The lengths some will go to in order to die (sometimes literally) on very particular partisan hills absolutely staggers the mind, as does the magical thinking amongst this set. Perfectly safe and effective vaccines for COVID-19 are suspect in the minds of many because they initially only received "Emergency Use Authorization" from the FDA. The implication, of course, is that the vaccines were not thoroughly vetted, and that these individuals would have been less suspicious of the vaccines if they had received full and complete approval from the FDA.
That said, the FDA is likely to award the current crop of COVID-19 vaccines their full approval as early as tomorrow. Will this actually change the minds of those who are refusing vaccination, including some in this thread, who claim only to be expressing healthy skepticism devoid of any sectarian considerations whatsoever? I imagine it will not. In fact, I'd guess it won't make even the tiniest dent in the armor they've created to insulate themselves from tangible reality. I suspect the goalposts will move yet again as justification for this "skepticism" (in some cases, the goalposts have already been moved preemptively in anticipation of the FDA's full approval of the vaccines).
And in spite of all that "healthy skepticism" anti-vaxxers claim to be espousing, many amongst them will still tout a variety of drugs and therapeutics that, while potentially safe under specific circumstances to treat conditions unrelated to COVID-19, have yet to undergo even a fraction of the rigorous testing as treatments for COVID-19 that were undertaken in the development of the COVID-19 vaccines themselves. The very argument that justifies their vaccine skepticism in the first place is not nearly as faithfully applied to their pet alternative drug(s) of choice, because where would the logic exist in that?
Vaccines that are under a global microscope of immense proportions, that have undergone incredibly scrupulous trials, that have been approved by scores of government agencies and health organizations around the world, that are earnestly recommended by millions of medical professionals and are being safely administered to billions of patients with a negligible risk of side effect, are worthy of intense skepticism, but undertested treatments for COVID-19, including such flavors of the week in the last year-and-a-half as hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin, are awarded special status in the eyes of those who are actively seeking confirmations of their existing biases. Might ivermectin be a valuable tool in the fight against COVID-19? Perhaps. Some data suggests it could be effective. More rigorous testing should be done. But why is the insufficient data currently available for ivermectin's effectiveness as a treatment for COVID-19 more convincing than the much more thoroughly-vetted COVID-19 vaccine approval process?
There are just mountains of bad faith arguments being made on the subject of the COVID-19 vaccines. And for whatever reason, it's more straightforward for some to believe that deception, manipulation, and coercion are occurring on a massively-coordinated global scale than to accept the realities of the readily available and easily decipherable data that says: you're much better off with the vaccine than without it, particularly now that the Delta variant predominates; you're highly unlikely to develop any significant side-effects to the vaccine; and most importantly, you will help protect others if you get it.
Approval for use in other countries is often to a lower standard than that required for use in the USA. So great, if it works: do a large, statistically-valid study, document it, and submit your proof for emergency authorization of Ivermectin for use in the USA. That hasn't been done. There's been plenty of time at this point.
Do you really think the FDA is going to come out and say "we know a lot of you are buying livestock medicine and poisoning yourselves - please make sure you cut it first before unauthorized use (unless you are the size of Andre the Giant)"? Get real. The calls for poisoning aren't coming from folks that got this from a doctor for authorized use for treating parasites....
The decision will set off a cascade of vaccine requirements by hospitals, colleges, corporations, and some state and local governments. And the surgeon general has declared virus misinformation an urgent threat to health.
The Food and Drug Administration on Monday granted full approval to Pfizer-BioNTech’s coronavirus vaccine for people 16 and older, making it the first to move beyond emergency use status in the United States.
The approval comes as the nation’s fight against the pandemic has intensified again, with the highly infectious Delta variant dramatically slowing the progress that the country had made over the first half of the year.
“While millions of people have already safely received Covid-19 vaccines, we recognize that for some, the F.D.A. approval of a vaccine may now instill additional confidence to get vaccinated,” Dr. Janet Woodcock, the acting F.D.A. commissioner, said in a statement. “Today’s milestone puts us one step closer to altering the course of this pandemic in the U.S.”
Pfizer said it presented the F.D.A. with data from 44,000 clinical trial participants in United States, the European Union, Turkey, South Africa and South America. The company said the data showed the vaccine was 91 percent effective in preventing infection — a slight drop from the 95 percent efficacy rate that the data showed when the F.D.A. decided to authorize the vaccine for emergency use in December. Pfizer said the decrease reflected the fact that researchers had more time to catch people who became infected.
A recent poll by the Kaiser Family Foundation, which has been tracking public attitudes during the pandemic, found that three of every 10 unvaccinated people said that they would be more likely to get vaccinated with a shot that had been fully approved.
Obviously a ploy by the #swamp!Covid-19, Delta Variant and Vaccine News: Live Updates - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
Covid-19 Updates: F.D.A. Grants Full Approval to Pfizer-BioNTech Covid Vaccine
Full federal approval for the Pfizer-BioNTech coronavirus vaccine for those 16 and older is opening the way for institutions like the military, corporate employers, hospitals and school districts to announce vaccine mandates for their employees.
National medical groups hailed the step. A joint statement by the American Medical Association, American Hospital Association and American Nurses Association called it “a major step forward in the worldwide effort to end this pandemic.”
“Today’s news marks a critical moment for people who were concerned about getting vaccinated due to the vaccines being authorized for emergency use,” the statement said. “With millions of data points on the vaccine’s safety and efficacy over nearly nine months of vaccinations, every ‘i’ is dotted and every ‘t’ is crossed.”
Obviously a ploy by the #swamp!
Why down play the healing effects of horse downers and good ol’ American Clorox otherwise?
#theFDAarelizardpeople
I know you enjoy hanging out on the sidelines and jumping in for those "gotcha" moments but you're at the point where you're quadrupling down on an original incorrect strawman argument. Literally poking fun at a made up person inside your head that is eating horse pills, drinking Clorox and apparently thinks lizard people are real. We're all adults here, can we have a discussion without this nonsense? A lot of us here don't agree with each other but at least we're being civil and mature.
Seriously? Apprehension is the description I would use on those I know that haven't taken it.most of the arguments against the vaccine would suggest otherwise.