The Sports And COVID Vaccine Thread
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The whole idea that Covid only affects the elderly and patients with comorbidities is out the window with the delta variants. Within the last week, I’ve sent at least 4-5 patients to the icu that are in their 30’s and 40’s without any medical problems. Quite frankly, I’m running out of empathy. They made their choice and if they end up with a tracheotomy or never the same again then it’s on them. What I do feel empathy for is the non covid patients that are getting subpar care due to the diverting resources that are used up to take care of patients during these avoidable surges. What do I mean by that? Well when hospital are low on bed, they cancel elective surgeries to use the pacu bed as hospital bed and the staffing that goes with it to take care of patient admitted. Elective surgeries are more than just a hip replacement or back surgeries because you’re old and in pain. A patient with a newly diagnosed colon cancer may need it a colectomy is an elective surgery. That patient now will sit and wait a month or two until they have the surgery and cross their finger that the cancer doesn’t goes metastatic where they are no longer a surgical candidate. Or if you have a tumor and waiting for biopsy so you can be seen by the oncologist for treatment, that’s also consider an elective procedure.
Portland is rerouting all their ambulances because there are no beds. So people having strokes and heart emergencies unrelated to COVID are at risk. I got word this morning that one of our rural clinics had someone die waiting to get admitted because of bed shortage.
Look, this whole thing has been a political disaster and maybe the vaccine is more of an immunity boost than a true prophylactic but holy hell if you are willingly not getting it and you get sick and cost someone a bed and they die you suck.
Look, this whole thing has been a political disaster and maybe the vaccine is more of an immunity boost than a true prophylactic but holy hell if you are willingly not getting it and you get sick and cost someone a bed and they die you suck.
Since the NBA isn't a total ponzi scheme like MLS I hope they do you better than Timbers did me. Basically activated all my tickets over my objections that I didn't feel safe yet and that I wouldn't attend until my hospital leaves modified operations, their reply was tough luck dump them on Seat Geek where tickets have been going at 60% of face. People were even giving away tickets to our rivalry match last week.
The unvaccinated are much more likely to spread COVID-19 than the vaccinated. Simple as that. Again, I don't care an iota about whether or not the unvaccinated want my concern. I care about their lack of concern for others. I care about how their decisions may effect those who are vulnerable, including those who are important to me.
I have two close relatives and one friend who are immunocompromised. A different friend's father passed away from COVID-19 early in the pandemic. He was 67 years old. One of my mother's friends passed away from COVID-19 at the end of last year. She was 58 years old. They were both in good health prior to contracting COVID-19. One of my coworkers caught it back in January. He was laid up for a month, hardly able to move. He still has trouble breathing from time to time without the use of an inhaler. And he can neither smell nor taste anything almost eight months after contracting the virus. He's 39 years old.
My wife just went in for a biopsy two days ago. If we should discover that the mass is cancerous, she will likely undergo treatment that will compromise her immune system. It will then become essential to insulate her from the possibility of contracting COVID-19. In the distressing scenario where my wife does need to undergo treatment, I will do all I can to limit my exposure in an effort to likewise limit her exposure, but the selfishness of the unvaccinated will make that task considerably more difficult, frustrating, and anxiety-inducing than it needs to be. It doesn't have to be this way. The vaccines are safe and effective. There is a far greater chance of catching and developing long-term complications due to COVID-19 than due to the vaccines. Their protection against the Delta variant is waning and booster shots will become necessary, but so f***ing what? To return to the analogy I used in my previous post, you don't give up on bolstering your team's defense just because you can't acquire peak Kawhi Leonard to lock down the wing.
On the subject of the NBA, I did not weigh in whatsoever on Golden 1's COVID-related policies, so you're making presumptions about my stance on that issue. If it's anything less than a full vaccine mandate, then it's insufficient in my eyes. If you want my even more blunt opinion, I believe vaccine mandates should govern access to all areas of polite society. I believe the unvaccinated should essentially get boxed out of civilized life. You don't want to get the vaccine? Fine. Watch others' lives return to normal while you luxuriate in your isolation. You want to spurn any sense of social responsibility to the health and safety of those around you? Again, that's perfectly fine. Society is under no obligation to extend its services, perks, and delights to you. You can homeschool your kids. You can continue to order restaurant delivery. You can continue to watch movies and sporting events and concerts from home. In my mind, the more public and private institutions, agencies, and companies that mandate vaccination, the better.
Higher moral ground? No. Just no. Not at all. This is not philosophical for me. This is tangible. It's real. I don't f***ing care about these kinds of arguments anymore. I don't care if a stubborn segment of the population feels "vilified" for refusing the vaccine, and thus is choosing to double down on their imprudence. You're either aware of the pain and suffering occurring around you or you're not. You're either aware of the concrete data regarding the efficacy and the safety of the vaccines or you're not. The rest is just culture war bullsh*t that I no longer have the slightest bit of patience for. Selfishness disguised as principled stand remains selfishness.
I have two close relatives and one friend who are immunocompromised. A different friend's father passed away from COVID-19 early in the pandemic. He was 67 years old. One of my mother's friends passed away from COVID-19 at the end of last year. She was 58 years old. They were both in good health prior to contracting COVID-19. One of my coworkers caught it back in January. He was laid up for a month, hardly able to move. He still has trouble breathing from time to time without the use of an inhaler. And he can neither smell nor taste anything almost eight months after contracting the virus. He's 39 years old.
My wife just went in for a biopsy two days ago. If we should discover that the mass is cancerous, she will likely undergo treatment that will compromise her immune system. It will then become essential to insulate her from the possibility of contracting COVID-19. In the distressing scenario where my wife does need to undergo treatment, I will do all I can to limit my exposure in an effort to likewise limit her exposure, but the selfishness of the unvaccinated will make that task considerably more difficult, frustrating, and anxiety-inducing than it needs to be. It doesn't have to be this way. The vaccines are safe and effective. There is a far greater chance of catching and developing long-term complications due to COVID-19 than due to the vaccines. Their protection against the Delta variant is waning and booster shots will become necessary, but so f***ing what? To return to the analogy I used in my previous post, you don't give up on bolstering your team's defense just because you can't acquire peak Kawhi Leonard to lock down the wing.
On the subject of the NBA, I did not weigh in whatsoever on Golden 1's COVID-related policies, so you're making presumptions about my stance on that issue. If it's anything less than a full vaccine mandate, then it's insufficient in my eyes. If you want my even more blunt opinion, I believe vaccine mandates should govern access to all areas of polite society. I believe the unvaccinated should essentially get boxed out of civilized life. You don't want to get the vaccine? Fine. Watch others' lives return to normal while you luxuriate in your isolation. You want to spurn any sense of social responsibility to the health and safety of those around you? Again, that's perfectly fine. Society is under no obligation to extend its services, perks, and delights to you. You can homeschool your kids. You can continue to order restaurant delivery. You can continue to watch movies and sporting events and concerts from home. In my mind, the more public and private institutions, agencies, and companies that mandate vaccination, the better.
Higher moral ground? No. Just no. Not at all. This is not philosophical for me. This is tangible. It's real. I don't f***ing care about these kinds of arguments anymore. I don't care if a stubborn segment of the population feels "vilified" for refusing the vaccine, and thus is choosing to double down on their imprudence. You're either aware of the pain and suffering occurring around you or you're not. You're either aware of the concrete data regarding the efficacy and the safety of the vaccines or you're not. The rest is just culture war bullsh*t that I no longer have the slightest bit of patience for. Selfishness disguised as principled stand remains selfishness.
What are you even getting at here?
You are fully seated in the culture war, you're just on the side that you think is right. You are not on a higher moral ground than that either. You want to fully control the lives of people you don't agree with and make them pariahs. I know you think that you're coming in as the voice of reason but just remember that you sound as ridiculous to me as I do to you. The main difference is that I have no desire to control your life because I respect your personal freedoms. You don't respect my freedom because you think that people like me are selfish people who deserve to have very little rights in the world. Propaganda has made you believe that I am the bad guy. That I am the reason why everything isn't back to normal right now and that is simply not the case and it is not backed by science. It's backed by politics. Your opinion on how the unvaccinated should be shunned from society is downright frightening and is as dystopian as it gets.
If only the vaccinated were allowed into Golden 1, the virus would still be passed all over the place. I don't understand why you keep ignoring this fact. Just because it's passed less, does not mean it's not being passed at a high frequency. The data is coming out and it's showing that the vaccine isn't as effective as initially thought but people are still pretending like it has a 90%+ efficacy rate. In your perfect world, people are guaranteed to get pass the virus and get sick if they go to a Kings game, even when they're all vaccinated because multiple people in that building will be positive with covid.
People with compromised immune systems should be doing all they can to protect themselves. I don't know why I have to keep repeating this. When did we stop being adults with common sense and started relying on everyone else around us to cater to our every need? If you've ever gone out in public with a cold, then you've potentially infected a person with a compromised immune system. It's not your job to do anything other than the normal respectful things that every person does like not sneezing all over the place, washing your hands, keeping distance etc. You shouldn't be locked up inside your house with no where to go because you may infect a compromised person with your cold. I respect you having that freedom but you don't respect mine.
You are fully seated in the culture war, you're just on the side that you think is right. You are not on a higher moral ground than that either. You want to fully control the lives of people you don't agree with and make them pariahs. I know you think that you're coming in as the voice of reason but just remember that you sound as ridiculous to me as I do to you. The main difference is that I have no desire to control your life because I respect your personal freedoms. You don't respect my freedom because you think that people like me are selfish people who deserve to have very little rights in the world. Propaganda has made you believe that I am the bad guy. That I am the reason why everything isn't back to normal right now and that is simply not the case and it is not backed by science. It's backed by politics. Your opinion on how the unvaccinated should be shunned from society is downright frightening and is as dystopian as it gets.
If only the vaccinated were allowed into Golden 1, the virus would still be passed all over the place. I don't understand why you keep ignoring this fact. Just because it's passed less, does not mean it's not being passed at a high frequency. The data is coming out and it's showing that the vaccine isn't as effective as initially thought but people are still pretending like it has a 90%+ efficacy rate. In your perfect world, people are guaranteed to get pass the virus and get sick if they go to a Kings game, even when they're all vaccinated because multiple people in that building will be positive with covid.
People with compromised immune systems should be doing all they can to protect themselves. I don't know why I have to keep repeating this. When did we stop being adults with common sense and started relying on everyone else around us to cater to our every need? If you've ever gone out in public with a cold, then you've potentially infected a person with a compromised immune system. It's not your job to do anything other than the normal respectful things that every person does like not sneezing all over the place, washing your hands, keeping distance etc. You shouldn't be locked up inside your house with no where to go because you may infect a compromised person with your cold. I respect you having that freedom but you don't respect mine.
I'm right here with you. At this point, the only holdup from returning to "normal" is the stubborn willingly unvaccinated, and they are causing untold havoc on our society, economy, and health care system. And it is >95% completely avoidable with a free, convenient, and safe vaccination that most nations around the world are BEGGING for and can't get.
Civilized life is based to a certain extent on the common good, and the willingness to sacrifice for it. Taxes. The draft. Untold laws that limit your behavior for the benefit of all (speed limits, no drinking and driving, "no shoes, no shirt, no service", free speech limits, mandatory vaccinations for kids to go to school, vehicles have to pull over to let emergency vehicles by, etc.). The list goes on and on. Heck, even nudist camps have rules that you have to bring a towel to sit down for hygiene reasons.
Those that insist on demanding their "freedoms" without acknowledging the responsibilities that go with them deserve neither.
Civilized life is based to a certain extent on the common good, and the willingness to sacrifice for it. Taxes. The draft. Untold laws that limit your behavior for the benefit of all (speed limits, no drinking and driving, "no shoes, no shirt, no service", free speech limits, mandatory vaccinations for kids to go to school, vehicles have to pull over to let emergency vehicles by, etc.). The list goes on and on. Heck, even nudist camps have rules that you have to bring a towel to sit down for hygiene reasons.
Those that insist on demanding their "freedoms" without acknowledging the responsibilities that go with them deserve neither.
By the way (sorry for the "mainstream media" link 
):
Covid-19 Live Updates: Vaccine Mandates, Booster Shots and Delta Variant - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
):Covid-19 Live Updates: Vaccine Mandates, Booster Shots and Delta Variant - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
I'm an educated guy. I don't interact with propaganda, and I can recognize it when I see it. Yes, the vaccines no longer have a 90%+ efficacy rate. Their effectiveness wanes over time, like that of many vaccines. This was not unexpected. Epidemiologists prepared us for the potential of this reality and had cautioned from the beginning that booster shots may become necessary anywhere from six months to a year after initial vaccination. The emergence of the Delta variant has necessitated the approval and deployment of those booster shots.
I have listened to the scientists from the outset. I have heeded their caution regarding the effectiveness of the vaccines in the face of anti-vaccination superstition, so I have been unsurprised by the results of that superstition. That is not some kind of boast. It is just the result of listening to those who know as opposed to listening to those who don't. Much of the death and suffering that we have experienced was entirely preventable. A global pandemic is an enormously complex event that requires reactivity and adaptability to protect the largest number of people. It requires a massive mobilization of manpower and resources to achieve those ends, but it also requires that people listen to expert opinion when it's offered.
For the record, I don't think you're a bad guy at all. I just think you're woefully misinformed. And I do respect your "freedoms." Every single one of them... right up until the point that they impact the health and safety of others. You keep trumpeting the notion of "common sense" as if it's some sort of hack that circumvents the need for any kind of rule of law. If that were the case, the USA would never have topped 600,000 COVID-19 deaths in the first place.
Yet here we are, and I simply do not trust the American people to think of others before themselves, so I expect those in positions of power to operate accordingly. The population of the United States of America represents a little over 4% of the entire global population, yet this nation--the wealthiest and most advanced nation in the world--represents approximately 15% of all deaths due to COVID-19. Common sense has never been enough. Never. Not in the entire history of organized society. Since we began grouping as a species, we have crafted rule sets that govern human behavior for the sake of the common good.
With respect to a modern sensibility, things like smoking bans, drunk driving laws, existing vaccination requirements, water and air quality regulations, and many dozens of other examples are all societal contracts that represent an infringement on one's "freedoms." However, we collectively recognize the necessity of these laws, rules, requirements, and regulations in the preservation of the common good and in pursuit of equal protection for all. @Warhawk said it well: "Those that insist on demanding their 'freedoms' without acknowledging the responsibilities that go with them deserve neither." You have a very flat and ahistorical view of liberty if you're unable to recognize its limits within the confines of organized societies.
I have listened to the scientists from the outset. I have heeded their caution regarding the effectiveness of the vaccines in the face of anti-vaccination superstition, so I have been unsurprised by the results of that superstition. That is not some kind of boast. It is just the result of listening to those who know as opposed to listening to those who don't. Much of the death and suffering that we have experienced was entirely preventable. A global pandemic is an enormously complex event that requires reactivity and adaptability to protect the largest number of people. It requires a massive mobilization of manpower and resources to achieve those ends, but it also requires that people listen to expert opinion when it's offered.
For the record, I don't think you're a bad guy at all. I just think you're woefully misinformed. And I do respect your "freedoms." Every single one of them... right up until the point that they impact the health and safety of others. You keep trumpeting the notion of "common sense" as if it's some sort of hack that circumvents the need for any kind of rule of law. If that were the case, the USA would never have topped 600,000 COVID-19 deaths in the first place.
Yet here we are, and I simply do not trust the American people to think of others before themselves, so I expect those in positions of power to operate accordingly. The population of the United States of America represents a little over 4% of the entire global population, yet this nation--the wealthiest and most advanced nation in the world--represents approximately 15% of all deaths due to COVID-19. Common sense has never been enough. Never. Not in the entire history of organized society. Since we began grouping as a species, we have crafted rule sets that govern human behavior for the sake of the common good.
With respect to a modern sensibility, things like smoking bans, drunk driving laws, existing vaccination requirements, water and air quality regulations, and many dozens of other examples are all societal contracts that represent an infringement on one's "freedoms." However, we collectively recognize the necessity of these laws, rules, requirements, and regulations in the preservation of the common good and in pursuit of equal protection for all. @Warhawk said it well: "Those that insist on demanding their 'freedoms' without acknowledging the responsibilities that go with them deserve neither." You have a very flat and ahistorical view of liberty if you're unable to recognize its limits within the confines of organized societies.
The American Revolution probably would have failed if George Washington hadn't had the foresight to vaccinate his soldiers against smallpox.
https://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/GW&smallpoxinoculation.html
That's right, all these ideas of "freedom" that you hold dear wouldn't have even been a thing if George Washington (y'know, the dude y'all-qaeda like to say is rolling over his grave over whatever small inconvenience they decided claim to be the death knell of liberty one any given day) hadn't forced his men to get a vaccine.
Side note: Ironically America's propensity for veering from the simple path of longevity right into the oncoming semi-truck of whataboutism and fear of science was a thing even then.
So I guess the question is this: Would you (in a rhetorical sense, not aimed at anyone in particular) rather be George Washington or one of the dumbass Continental Congress dudes who preferred dying an immensely painful death from one of the worst maladies to ever grace the earth to getting inoculated?
https://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/GW&smallpoxinoculation.html
That's right, all these ideas of "freedom" that you hold dear wouldn't have even been a thing if George Washington (y'know, the dude y'all-qaeda like to say is rolling over his grave over whatever small inconvenience they decided claim to be the death knell of liberty one any given day) hadn't forced his men to get a vaccine.
Side note: Ironically America's propensity for veering from the simple path of longevity right into the oncoming semi-truck of whataboutism and fear of science was a thing even then.
So I guess the question is this: Would you (in a rhetorical sense, not aimed at anyone in particular) rather be George Washington or one of the dumbass Continental Congress dudes who preferred dying an immensely painful death from one of the worst maladies to ever grace the earth to getting inoculated?
Ok so let me throw out a scenario showing why neither of us are right here because there is no right answer at the moment.
You made it very clear, the unvaccinated should never be allowed to leave their homes if you were in charge. They would be ostracized from society and not allowed to live a normal live from now until their death. You've drawn your line in the sand that vaccinated = good people and unvaccinated = people that don't care about the health of others. It's scary but it's your opinion.
In this fantasy scenario, let me tell you where my line is drawn. It involves people that don't wear N95 masks. As you already know, the efficacy of the vaccine has waned so much that it is lower than 40% at this point in time. I think LA county actually has 30% of their cases as vaccinated breakthrough cases while Israel is dealing with the same types of numbers. Either way I'm going to make an assumption here and that assumption is that you don't wear an N95 mask around every person you come in contact with. Wearing a sealed N95 mask gives you over 95% protection from contracting and spreading the disease.
So you are now considered a bad person like I am because you are going out there risking other people's lives as a vaccinated person who knows the efficacy of the vaccine is not what it was early on and who knows full well that wearing an N95 would protect even more people than the vaccine ever did at it's height. You are choosing to engage in behavior that ignorantly and purposely puts other people in danger. Are you merely wearing a medical mask in public? You could get someone killed. Are you maskless around family? You could get someone killed. Are you engaging with vaccinated people while not wearing an N95? You could get someone killed. Everything you do without that N95 gives you higher odds of killing someone than if you would just wear it all the time. Why do you keep thinking that you somehow have the freedom to not wear an N95 around every person you encounter when doing so would be for the greater good of society? Why the ignorance???
For that selfish behavior, I welcome you to join me in the sad deplorable life of someone who is never allowed to leave their house or engage in anything that ever resembles a normal life again.
You made it very clear, the unvaccinated should never be allowed to leave their homes if you were in charge. They would be ostracized from society and not allowed to live a normal live from now until their death. You've drawn your line in the sand that vaccinated = good people and unvaccinated = people that don't care about the health of others. It's scary but it's your opinion.
In this fantasy scenario, let me tell you where my line is drawn. It involves people that don't wear N95 masks. As you already know, the efficacy of the vaccine has waned so much that it is lower than 40% at this point in time. I think LA county actually has 30% of their cases as vaccinated breakthrough cases while Israel is dealing with the same types of numbers. Either way I'm going to make an assumption here and that assumption is that you don't wear an N95 mask around every person you come in contact with. Wearing a sealed N95 mask gives you over 95% protection from contracting and spreading the disease.
So you are now considered a bad person like I am because you are going out there risking other people's lives as a vaccinated person who knows the efficacy of the vaccine is not what it was early on and who knows full well that wearing an N95 would protect even more people than the vaccine ever did at it's height. You are choosing to engage in behavior that ignorantly and purposely puts other people in danger. Are you merely wearing a medical mask in public? You could get someone killed. Are you maskless around family? You could get someone killed. Are you engaging with vaccinated people while not wearing an N95? You could get someone killed. Everything you do without that N95 gives you higher odds of killing someone than if you would just wear it all the time. Why do you keep thinking that you somehow have the freedom to not wear an N95 around every person you encounter when doing so would be for the greater good of society? Why the ignorance???
For that selfish behavior, I welcome you to join me in the sad deplorable life of someone who is never allowed to leave their house or engage in anything that ever resembles a normal life again.
This statement is false. Oxford just came out with a study that vaccinated and unvaccinated have the same viral load. My personal opinion is it's the vaccinated who think they are now immune are the ones not taking precautions and spreading it.
https://www.theweek.co.uk/news/science-health/953869/effectiveness-covid-vaccines-oxford-ons-study
It also showed the effectiveness dropped to 75% after 3 months.
Basically, they don't really know anything yet because there hasn't been enough time to do proper studies and have been reporting with faulty data.
The FDA and CDC are now revisiting the link between the Moderna vaccine and heart inflammation saying its a greater risk.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/08/19/moderna-vaccine-myocarditis/
Funny how they come out with the booster shot now, but no mention of when people who got the shot will have it expire. You would think 8 months since that's when the booster is needed.
https://www.theweek.co.uk/news/science-health/953869/effectiveness-covid-vaccines-oxford-ons-study
It also showed the effectiveness dropped to 75% after 3 months.
Basically, they don't really know anything yet because there hasn't been enough time to do proper studies and have been reporting with faulty data.
The FDA and CDC are now revisiting the link between the Moderna vaccine and heart inflammation saying its a greater risk.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/08/19/moderna-vaccine-myocarditis/
Funny how they come out with the booster shot now, but no mention of when people who got the shot will have it expire. You would think 8 months since that's when the booster is needed.
This is disingenuous at best.
The rate of Myocarditis is 8 per 1,000,000 for Pfizer and 20 per 1,000,000 per modern.
So if everyone in the US gets the Pfizer shot we will have 2,720 people get it, and 6,800 for modern. Also, the last I read (i have not looked recently) everyone who developed myocarditis has had a full recovery.
Secondly, apparently the CDC and FDA feel like that 2.5X increase for Modern is enough to continue to study the effects, so shouldn't they be lauded for the the caution vs. vilified? Isn't that what the people who have said this is happening to fast have been asking for?
To the first point, saying that vaccinated people are spreading at a higher rate is ridiculous. Lets use your own numbers, if 75% of people are being protected from Covid, that is 3/4 of that segment of population who is not spreading the virus. So the number have to be less just using simple math.
Lastly, and I can't find the link to the article I read last week, but currently it is estimated 95% of hospitalizations are unvaccinated.
The point of this vaccine was never to 100% stop covid. It was to slow the spread, stop the mutations and protect people against severe disease. IF we have 85% or more of society vaccinated we have a shot at this. We are no where near that number. We are in the elderly, which is great because they are the most at risk of severe disease. Unfortunately viruses are pesky little buggers and now are attaching more to healthier hosts since the unhealthy are more protected, so we are seeing an increase in younger healthier people being affected by this disease.
Final final thoughts. I think about the Daniel Tosh's Brett Favre bit (NSFW, language)
Vaccination is 95% effective = Awesome give it to me
Vaccination is 85% effective = Awesome give it to me
Vaccination is 75% effective = awesome give it to me
Vaccination may need a booster in 8-12 months = awesome, give that to me too
Vaccination is 20% effective (this is hyperbole) = Well, not super great, but awesome, give it to me.
Oh sorry, final final final thoughts
This is anecdotal, but my friends son who is now 19, got Covid last year. 6 months after developed blood clots and an enlarged heart as post covid inflammation issues. So why sure, the vaccine may not be 100% safe, we know for a FACT that covid isn't. So I am going to do everything I can to protect myself and my family against this negative outcomes while taking a .00005% chance that something happens from the vaccine. I like those odds.
The rate of Myocarditis is 8 per 1,000,000 for Pfizer and 20 per 1,000,000 per modern.
So if everyone in the US gets the Pfizer shot we will have 2,720 people get it, and 6,800 for modern. Also, the last I read (i have not looked recently) everyone who developed myocarditis has had a full recovery.
Secondly, apparently the CDC and FDA feel like that 2.5X increase for Modern is enough to continue to study the effects, so shouldn't they be lauded for the the caution vs. vilified? Isn't that what the people who have said this is happening to fast have been asking for?
To the first point, saying that vaccinated people are spreading at a higher rate is ridiculous. Lets use your own numbers, if 75% of people are being protected from Covid, that is 3/4 of that segment of population who is not spreading the virus. So the number have to be less just using simple math.
Lastly, and I can't find the link to the article I read last week, but currently it is estimated 95% of hospitalizations are unvaccinated.
The point of this vaccine was never to 100% stop covid. It was to slow the spread, stop the mutations and protect people against severe disease. IF we have 85% or more of society vaccinated we have a shot at this. We are no where near that number. We are in the elderly, which is great because they are the most at risk of severe disease. Unfortunately viruses are pesky little buggers and now are attaching more to healthier hosts since the unhealthy are more protected, so we are seeing an increase in younger healthier people being affected by this disease.
Final final thoughts. I think about the Daniel Tosh's Brett Favre bit (NSFW, language)
Vaccination is 95% effective = Awesome give it to me
Vaccination is 85% effective = Awesome give it to me
Vaccination is 75% effective = awesome give it to me
Vaccination may need a booster in 8-12 months = awesome, give that to me too
Vaccination is 20% effective (this is hyperbole) = Well, not super great, but awesome, give it to me.
Oh sorry, final final final thoughts
This is anecdotal, but my friends son who is now 19, got Covid last year. 6 months after developed blood clots and an enlarged heart as post covid inflammation issues. So why sure, the vaccine may not be 100% safe, we know for a FACT that covid isn't. So I am going to do everything I can to protect myself and my family against this negative outcomes while taking a .00005% chance that something happens from the vaccine. I like those odds.
Actually the viral load is on the s
Actually viral load in vaccinated individual decrease dramatically at around 1 week compare to unvaccinated so you’ll still be much less to spread even if you are a vaccine breakthrough case. This is based on latest publication from Singapore
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261295v1
Secondly, I’m someone who treated myocarditis both in patients with Covid associated myocarditis as well as covid vaccine associated myocarditis. The one who got myocarditis from Covid infection was in much worse shape.
Actually viral load in vaccinated individual decrease dramatically at around 1 week compare to unvaccinated so you’ll still be much less to spread even if you are a vaccine breakthrough case. This is based on latest publication from Singapore
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261295v1
Secondly, I’m someone who treated myocarditis both in patients with Covid associated myocarditis as well as covid vaccine associated myocarditis. The one who got myocarditis from Covid infection was in much worse shape.
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The pandemic has compelled us as individuals to try and make wise decisions with imperfect and limited information. Super interesting to see the choices some people make (take cow worm medicine but refuse the vaccine because they are "still doing their research" for example).
I am honestly a lot less concerned about catching Covid at a Kings game (I have two moderna shots and will get a third when advised to by MSM lol) than I am about a Kings game being a super-spreader, filling hospital beds with anti-vaxxers, and creating a situation where there are no ICU beds, no ambulances, etc. It is more a matter of population health than MY health. It's bigger than basketball.
So to avoid being a super-spreader event and filling hospital beds, I hope the major sports leagues and county governments stick to their guns. To participate in these large indoor gatherings, you have to be vaccinated. I love the fact the Vegas Raiders will apparently give you a jab on the spot and let you in the game with a mask, and I hope the Kings maybe do the same.
I am honestly a lot less concerned about catching Covid at a Kings game (I have two moderna shots and will get a third when advised to by MSM lol) than I am about a Kings game being a super-spreader, filling hospital beds with anti-vaxxers, and creating a situation where there are no ICU beds, no ambulances, etc. It is more a matter of population health than MY health. It's bigger than basketball.
So to avoid being a super-spreader event and filling hospital beds, I hope the major sports leagues and county governments stick to their guns. To participate in these large indoor gatherings, you have to be vaccinated. I love the fact the Vegas Raiders will apparently give you a jab on the spot and let you in the game with a mask, and I hope the Kings maybe do the same.
To answer your question in a previous post. The Kings haven't changed their policy since the CA Classic. Those entering the building agree they have been vaccinated or have a had a negative test 72 hours prior to entering. They are not validating the information when entering. Masks must be worn inside unless you are eating or drinking.
Good. They should. If you are unvaccinated you go to the end of the line for an ICU bed if you have COVID - it is almost entirely preventable and you are taking beds from accident victims, etc.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nichol...allas-area-hospitals-if-covid-spread-worsens/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nichol...allas-area-hospitals-if-covid-spread-worsens/
There is truth on both sides. Are people being vilified if unvaccinated? Yes. Plenty of examples in this thread.
Are vaccinated individuals taking unneeded risks? Yes.
Are unvaccinated individuals still more likely to have the more severe complications and are almost exclusively the ones who are still dying from Covid? Yes.
Have the vaccines shown themselves to be effective even if not the effectiveness initially touted? Yes.
Have they to date shown themselves to be safe in comparison to other vaccines? Yes.
For those in the medical field, would it not be prudent for everyone to take universal precautions. Like body fluids, treat it as contaminated irregardless of whom it came from. Treat everyone as potential carriers of Covid irregardless of vaccine status?
I say that because we are seeing more than a small number of break through cases. Personally, my sister's boyfriend was a break through case. My wife's co-worker's husband was a break through case. She came into work sick saying, "it's okay, I'm vaccinated." Despite her husband being positive while fully vaccinated. She is now positive (co-worker).
Are vaccinated individuals taking unneeded risks? Yes.
Are unvaccinated individuals still more likely to have the more severe complications and are almost exclusively the ones who are still dying from Covid? Yes.
Have the vaccines shown themselves to be effective even if not the effectiveness initially touted? Yes.
Have they to date shown themselves to be safe in comparison to other vaccines? Yes.
For those in the medical field, would it not be prudent for everyone to take universal precautions. Like body fluids, treat it as contaminated irregardless of whom it came from. Treat everyone as potential carriers of Covid irregardless of vaccine status?
I say that because we are seeing more than a small number of break through cases. Personally, my sister's boyfriend was a break through case. My wife's co-worker's husband was a break through case. She came into work sick saying, "it's okay, I'm vaccinated." Despite her husband being positive while fully vaccinated. She is now positive (co-worker).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58270098
Interesting article on how to best go forward acquiring immunity.
This is not the first I have seen touching on the plan for booster shots before the world has had a chance for the first vaccine.
Interesting article on how to best go forward acquiring immunity.
This is not the first I have seen touching on the plan for booster shots before the world has had a chance for the first vaccine.
It’s mind-boggling. But the Missouri/Mississippi area, etc., is apparently having serious issues with it.
https://www.ozarksfirst.com/local-n...eatment-for-covid-19-says-springfield-doctor/
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mississippi-poison-control-anti-parasite-drug-covid/
https://www.ozarksfirst.com/local-n...eatment-for-covid-19-says-springfield-doctor/
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mississippi-poison-control-anti-parasite-drug-covid/
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This is a propaganda hitpiece to dissuade people from taking Ivermectin. No one is advocating taking horse paste Ivermectin, and they wouldn't have to if human Ivermectin was widely available in all countries as it should be.
The FDA admits in the article as well that they haven't even reviewed the evidence regarding Ivermectin.
The sole purpose of that article is to trash Ivermectin in an effort to push vaccines.
I've been directly involved with the effort of pushing repurposed drugs for covid-19 since late last year.
It's part of the reason I've completely lost trust in the Health authorities. We've had safe repurposed drugs that could have been used to cut infection, transmission, and hospitalizations since last year.
But the Health authorities failed on their obligation to look out for the Health of the public, instead censoring anything related to the treatment of covid-19 with repurposed drugs.
They censor effectiveness of repurposed drugs, they censor vaccine injuries, anything that would slow down the usage of the vaccines is censored.
It is not scientific and completely unethical.
The science is clear for Ivermectin and has been for anyone that understands what evidence based medicine is. And if it's not clear for someone they are uneducated, or ignorant.
There are outpatient doctors and ICU doctors all over the world that use lvermectin for covid patients with outstanding results. It works, and the data supports it.
These are peer reviewed meta-analyses on Ivermectin for covid-19, the highest form of medical evidence:
https://journals.lww.com/americantherapeutics/fulltext/2021/06000/review_of_the_emerging_evidence_demonstrating_the.4.aspx
https://journals.lww.com/americanth...mectin_for_Prevention_and_Treatment_of.7.aspx
The people at the forefront pushing lvermectin have no conflicts of interest, it's difficult to have one for such a cheap, off-patent drug. They are also among the most respected physicians in the world.
The drug itself was founded from bacteria in Japanese soil, It's been around for 40 years, is responsible for eradicating river blindness in Africa leading to a Nobel Prize in medicine in 2015, is on the WHO's list of essential medicines, and is basically one of the safest if not the safest medication in the world. It's safer than aspirin.
This is nothing more than a hitpiece to dissuade people from using a drug that is actually working and has been for the last year.
I hope those of you touting the Health authorities for their prowess and impeccable data realize the corruption and money grab going on behind the scenes. It is obvious to me, but then again I've been very involved in this since late last year. Most of my time is dedicated to Covid.
It is my belief that everyone, vaccinated or not, needs to have a prescription of Ivermectin in their cupboard in case they get sick.
Covid is not exactly a disease that one wants lingering in their body.
We also don't know how long these vaccines will remain effective. They might not be at a certain point.
The FDA admits in the article as well that they haven't even reviewed the evidence regarding Ivermectin.
The sole purpose of that article is to trash Ivermectin in an effort to push vaccines.
I've been directly involved with the effort of pushing repurposed drugs for covid-19 since late last year.
It's part of the reason I've completely lost trust in the Health authorities. We've had safe repurposed drugs that could have been used to cut infection, transmission, and hospitalizations since last year.
But the Health authorities failed on their obligation to look out for the Health of the public, instead censoring anything related to the treatment of covid-19 with repurposed drugs.
They censor effectiveness of repurposed drugs, they censor vaccine injuries, anything that would slow down the usage of the vaccines is censored.
It is not scientific and completely unethical.
The science is clear for Ivermectin and has been for anyone that understands what evidence based medicine is. And if it's not clear for someone they are uneducated, or ignorant.
There are outpatient doctors and ICU doctors all over the world that use lvermectin for covid patients with outstanding results. It works, and the data supports it.
These are peer reviewed meta-analyses on Ivermectin for covid-19, the highest form of medical evidence:
https://journals.lww.com/americantherapeutics/fulltext/2021/06000/review_of_the_emerging_evidence_demonstrating_the.4.aspx
https://journals.lww.com/americanth...mectin_for_Prevention_and_Treatment_of.7.aspx
The people at the forefront pushing lvermectin have no conflicts of interest, it's difficult to have one for such a cheap, off-patent drug. They are also among the most respected physicians in the world.
The drug itself was founded from bacteria in Japanese soil, It's been around for 40 years, is responsible for eradicating river blindness in Africa leading to a Nobel Prize in medicine in 2015, is on the WHO's list of essential medicines, and is basically one of the safest if not the safest medication in the world. It's safer than aspirin.
This is nothing more than a hitpiece to dissuade people from using a drug that is actually working and has been for the last year.
I hope those of you touting the Health authorities for their prowess and impeccable data realize the corruption and money grab going on behind the scenes. It is obvious to me, but then again I've been very involved in this since late last year. Most of my time is dedicated to Covid.
It is my belief that everyone, vaccinated or not, needs to have a prescription of Ivermectin in their cupboard in case they get sick.
Covid is not exactly a disease that one wants lingering in their body.
We also don't know how long these vaccines will remain effective. They might not be at a certain point.
You jump to some amazing conclusions. Propaganda? Hit piece? Sole purpose is to push vaccines? Completely unethical?
No, it's a reminder that the drug has not been proven to help. It may work. The science is NOT "clear". Even the drug manufacturer says not to take it for COVID. Here is what they said:
Merck Statement on Ivermectin use During the COVID-19 Pandemic - Merck.com
This is also very informative:
Ivermectin Is the New Hydroxychloroquine: Seeking the Elusive Covid Cure - Bloomberg
Do you honestly think if it worked that doctors and others wouldn't be tripping over themselves to save lives??? You espouse these conspiracy theories and ignore the reality. Doctors are doing everything they can to keep folks alive with COVID patients. If it truly worked, and was proven to work, they would prescribe it and the manufacturer would help promote it. Or do you think all the doctors around the world are intentionally withholding existing medications that work? Do you know how much money Merck could make by simply ramping up production of an existing drug they make to save lives in a pandemic???
The studies you linked indicate that it may help. GREAT! I would be happy to see a proven medication relieve the pain, suffering, and in many cases, death from COVID. Nothing would make me happier (relating to COVID sufferers, that is).
But people are literally taking horse and cow drugs and poisoning themselves (instead of getting a proven, approved vaccine to prevent the hospitalizations and deaths to begin with!). They are too ignorant to realize the difference between prescribed versions and the vet versions and the already overwhelmed doctors are now faced with dealing with these overdose victims as well. And the studies have some problems, discussed above, and the manufacturer says not to take it and hasn't done the studies that prove it would help.
In fact, if you read the info from your links, they say this:
In other words, the initial review looks promising but you need to do the work, perform the controlled studies, check dosages, and run it through the FDA for their authorization, and then they can use it. You know, rigorous studies like the vaccines went through. And if they can generate a vaccine, do the trials, and get authorization, then everyone has had plenty of time to run this existing medication (already approved for use with people in the US) to see if it truly works or not. Do the work.
No, it's a reminder that the drug has not been proven to help. It may work. The science is NOT "clear". Even the drug manufacturer says not to take it for COVID. Here is what they said:
Merck Statement on Ivermectin use During the COVID-19 Pandemic - Merck.com
This is also very informative:
Ivermectin Is the New Hydroxychloroquine: Seeking the Elusive Covid Cure - Bloomberg
Do you honestly think if it worked that doctors and others wouldn't be tripping over themselves to save lives??? You espouse these conspiracy theories and ignore the reality. Doctors are doing everything they can to keep folks alive with COVID patients. If it truly worked, and was proven to work, they would prescribe it and the manufacturer would help promote it. Or do you think all the doctors around the world are intentionally withholding existing medications that work? Do you know how much money Merck could make by simply ramping up production of an existing drug they make to save lives in a pandemic???
The studies you linked indicate that it may help. GREAT! I would be happy to see a proven medication relieve the pain, suffering, and in many cases, death from COVID. Nothing would make me happier (relating to COVID sufferers, that is).
But people are literally taking horse and cow drugs and poisoning themselves (instead of getting a proven, approved vaccine to prevent the hospitalizations and deaths to begin with!). They are too ignorant to realize the difference between prescribed versions and the vet versions and the already overwhelmed doctors are now faced with dealing with these overdose victims as well. And the studies have some problems, discussed above, and the manufacturer says not to take it and hasn't done the studies that prove it would help.
In fact, if you read the info from your links, they say this:
In other words, the initial review looks promising but you need to do the work, perform the controlled studies, check dosages, and run it through the FDA for their authorization, and then they can use it. You know, rigorous studies like the vaccines went through. And if they can generate a vaccine, do the trials, and get authorization, then everyone has had plenty of time to run this existing medication (already approved for use with people in the US) to see if it truly works or not. Do the work.
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