The Sports And COVID Vaccine Thread

[miltonap]

No, that is the point. Every vaccine has a very minor risk. But the risks are magnitudes less than not using them. Who cares if one vaccine has a slightly different safety record than another? That's like saying wearing seatbelts in a Chevy isn't advisable because Ford seatbelts and Chevy seatbelts have slightly different safety records in accidents.

The numbers aren't "hyper-inflated". In fact, they are likely under-reported (according to Lancet, Scientific American, and other publications). Maybe by the tune of another 150,000 or so deaths, many early on when COVID was still relatively new and the range of symptoms were not fully known and numerous deaths by "heart attack" or other causes weren't fully evaluated at the time. But I stuck with the "accepted" value just to make the point.

A sterilizing vaccine is rare and is very difficult to achieve. Your insistence on a sterilizing solution for COVID isn't feasible at the moment, but it looks like at least one (AdCOVID) is on the horizon. It's a red herring argument, though. Vaccines work to provide herd immunity whether sterilizing or not.

With infection protection clearly waning in the vaccinated, why do you assume herd immunity would be achievable with these current vaccines ? I think the big trouble here is that the organism finds resistance against these vaccines. Then what ? I think depending on these vaccines to provide herd immunity is a big mistake.

I think the goal should be driving this pathogen to extinction, I don't see it with these vaccines. Maybe if they induced higher iGA/responses in order to get transmission rates much lower.

But we're already seeing it's starting to fail there

 

[miltonap]

That's also the biggest problem with it. Anyone can post anything to it without verification or medical review. Heck, if I wanted to, I could go on there and say it killed my wife even though she is perfectly fine sitting with our dogs on the couch about 15 feet away from me. Any self-reporting system is inherently unreliable, especially with the hyper-partisanship of vaccinations recently.

There is no way to verify that the reports are accurate (or even real events) and there is no way to tie any of it to the vaccines. It's essentially useless data when used in this way.

Viral Posts Misuse VAERS Data to Make False Claims About COVID-19 Vaccines - FactCheck.org

That's also the biggest problem with it. Anyone can post anything to it without verification or medical review. Heck, if I wanted to, I could go on there and say it killed my wife even though she is perfectly fine sitting with our dogs on the couch about 15 feet away from me. Any self-reporting system is inherently unreliable, especially with the hyper-partisanship of vaccinations recently.

There is no way to verify that the reports are accurate (or even real events) and there is no way to tie any of it to the vaccines. It's essentially useless data when used in this way.

Viral Posts Misuse VAERS Data to Make False Claims About COVID-19 Vaccines - FactCheck.org

This is a little ironic since there were estimates that 90-95% deaths were actually deaths WITH Covid Not FROM covid.

Regarding VAERS, it is a felony to submit a fake report. Will some be fake, duh, but you also can't dismiss it altogether because some reports will be fake. Also need to take into account most people dont even know it exists therefore don't report.

And you can use it as a tool to identify trends and signals. For example, if there is a majority of reported deaths or injuries occurring within a very short time of getting vaccinated, it is a trend that should be investigated.

 

[whozit]

This is a little ironic since there were estimates that 90-95% deaths were actually deaths WITH Covid Not FROM covid.

Regarding VAERS, it is a felony to submit a fake report. Will some be fake, duh, but you also can't dismiss it altogether because some reports will be fake. Also need to take into account most people dont even know it exists therefore don't report.

And you can use it as a tool to identify trends and signals. For example, if there is a majority of reported deaths or injuries occurring within a very short time of getting vaccinated, it is a trend that should be investigated.

And then there are those like me who know about it but no way unless something serious happened would I download it. Nothing other than a sore arm so .....

And unfortunately there have been so many contradictory things said from them, I have no confidence in the CDC.

 

[Warhawk]

With infection protection clearly waning in the vaccinated, why do you assume herd immunity would be achievable with these current vaccines ? I think the big trouble here is that the organism finds resistance against these vaccines. Then what ? I think depending on these vaccines to provide herd immunity is a big mistake.

I think the goal should be driving this pathogen to extinction, I don't see it with these vaccines. Maybe if they induced higher iGA/responses in order to get transmission rates much lower.

But we're already seeing it's starting to fail there

Immunizations from many vaccinations wane over time. That's the reason kids get booster shots for many vaccinations. That's one reason flu shots are annual; the flu virus mutates or new versions come out, but resistance also isn't lifetime for the shot you do get. So what?

I don't think you understand that all vaccines can't be one shot for life. It just doesn't work that way. You are establishing unrealistic goals or outcomes and then holding that up to be the end-all be-all of your vaccination wish list. Why?

Annual boosters may be required. We don't know yet. New formulations may be required. We don't know yet. A sterilizing vaccine may be imminent. We don't know yet.

What we do know is that the current vaccines are generally safe (per the trial studies, FDA review and subsequent approval, and 160+ million vaccinated and generally health in the USA alone already), they slow the spread of the virus, they keep those that get the vaccine out of hospitals with serious complications (99%± of hospitalizations are from the <50% of unvaccinated population in the USA), and they vastly reduce the number of dead (99%± of the deaths are from the <50% of unvaccinated population in the USA as well). The shots are available free of charge to anyone in the USA except children, and trials are underway on that age group. Why can't you accept that as a fantastic starting point to protect the public from a worldwide pandemic?

The goal of a vaccine right now isn't to necessarily offer lifetime immunization in 1 shot, although that would be ideal. The goal is to save lives in the short term, stop the pandemic, and keep people out of the hospitals and morgues. Hospitals overflowing with COVID patients can't give them the need they require, can't help patients with other health issues effectively, and the hospital workers get overwhelmed and burned out. Morgues were overflowing where refrigerated trucks had to be used for body storage. Mass graves were required for burying the dead. Let's focus on priorities here and not the pie-in-the-sky wish list that some seem to have and then they berate the medical profession for not meeting. It's called triage at this point. Tackle the immediate problem, then move on to doing it better with more research.

 

[Warhawk]

Regarding VAERS, it is a felony to submit a fake report.

While the rest of your statement is all speculation/rumor and not worth replying to, and assuming you are correct as I'm not going to bother to check, I'll reply to the above: So? In your eyes, that means that there shouldn't be anyone in jail for murders, or serious white-collar crimes, or rapes, or bank robberies, or untold other felonies. I mean, it's a felony to do that too, right? So obviously nobody would ever do something they aren't supposed to and commit a felony....

 

[miltonap]

Vaccines work to slow the spread, prevent many from getting infected, and limit the hospitalizations and deaths, sterilizing or no. Most vaccines we use aren't sterilizing, but we use them anyway because they work if enough people get vaccinated. I don't know what part of that you don't understand.

Vaccines Need Not Completely Stop COVID Transmission to Curb the Pandemic - Scientific American

Is 40-70% infection protection acceptable ? And this is right now. If it was 90-95% and this were done at a massive global rapid scale perhaps ? And you would have to cross your fingers that no resistant mutation develops.

But that's not happening.

But my main point was talking about policy, mainly coercing people to get it. And mainly in relation to comments about protecting coaches or the community.

It doesn't make much sense with initial protection waning and the fact that those who want the vaccine to protect against severe illness/death can get it.

 

[whozit]

With infection protection clearly waning in the vaccinated, why do you assume herd immunity would be achievable with these current vaccines ? I think the big trouble here is that the organism finds resistance against these vaccines. Then what ? I think depending on these vaccines to provide herd immunity is a big mistake.

I think the goal should be driving this pathogen to extinction, I don't see it with these vaccines. Maybe if they induced higher iGA/responses in order to get transmission rates much lower.

But we're already seeing it's starting to fail there

Might not work for herd immunity but does show reduces severity if one catches it after immunization. This may become an annual thing or not. Losing 1 to 2% of the population compared to maybe 6000 tops or as low as 120 may die because of the vaccines seems like a easy choice. I won't make it for anyone else but after initial delay I took them after seeing the results. Personally, people with my health conditions don't fare well with Covid so I am probably biased.

 

[miltonap]

While the rest of your statement is all speculation/rumor and not worth replying to, and assuming you are correct as I'm not going to bother to check, I'll reply to the above: So? In your eyes, that means that there shouldn't be anyone in jail for murders, or serious white-collar crimes, or rapes, or bank robberies, or untold other felonies. I mean, it's a felony to do that too, right? So obviously nobody would ever do something they aren't supposed to and commit a felony....

I think there's a large difference in the drive to want to murder someone and the drive to want to submit a fake report on VAERS.

And yes I agree that there's flaws and it sucks. More emphasis should have been placed on safety, the FDA had the opportunity to do so and they flat out didn't.

That's part of the problem people have. They know people personally that have been injured by these vaccines, they've listened to doctors and experts that have needed to treat vaccine injured folk, and everything you see on social media is oh this thing is so safe, adverse events are super rare, let's inject the children, let's inject people even though they have existing immunity shown through lab testing, inject yourself to protect your community, people sense the dishonesty.

And it is probably for that reason many have chosen not to buy what the government is selling. Too many things have not added up and are clearly not following the science.

 

[Padrino]

Immunizations from many vaccinations wane over time. That's the reason kids get booster shots for many vaccinations. That's one reason flu shots are annual; the flu virus mutates or new versions come out, but resistance also isn't lifetime for the shot you do get. So what?

I don't think you understand that all vaccines can't be one shot for life. It just doesn't work that way. You are establishing unrealistic goals or outcomes and then holding that up to be the end-all be-all of your vaccination wish list. Why?

Annual boosters may be required. We don't know yet. New formulations may be required. We don't know yet. A sterilizing vaccine may be imminent. We don't know yet.

What we do know is that the current vaccines are generally safe (per the trial studies, FDA review and subsequent approval, and 160+ million vaccinated and generally health in the USA alone already), they slow the spread of the virus, they keep those that get the vaccine out of hospitals with serious complications (99%± of hospitalizations are from the <50% of unvaccinated population in the USA), and they vastly reduce the number of dead (99%± of the deaths are from the <50% of unvaccinated population in the USA as well). The shots are available free of charge to anyone in the USA except children, and trials are underway on that age group. Why can't you accept that as a fantastic starting point to protect the public from a worldwide pandemic?

The goal of a vaccine right now isn't to necessarily offer lifetime immunization in 1 shot, although that would be ideal. The goal is to save lives in the short term, stop the pandemic, and keep people out of the hospitals and morgues. Hospitals overflowing with COVID patients can't give them the need they require, can't help patients with other health issues effectively, and the hospital workers get overwhelmed and burned out. Morgues were overflowing where refrigerated trucks had to be used for body storage. Mass graves were required for burying the dead. Let's focus on priorities here and not the pie-in-the-sky wish list that some seem to have and then they berate the medical profession for not meeting. It's called triage at this point. Tackle the immediate problem, then move on to doing it better with more research.

I'd like this a dozen times if I could.

 

[miltonap]

Might not work for herd immunity but does show reduces severity if one catches it after immunization. This may become an annual thing or not. Losing 1 to 2% of the population compared to maybe 6000 tops or as low as 120 may die because of the vaccines seems like a easy choice. I won't make it for anyone else but after initial delay I took them after seeing the results. Personally, people with my health conditions don't fare well with Covid so I am probably biased.

I think in the end this is about risk benefit for each individual. Each cohort is different, and informed consent is a must. I do agree they still seem to be pretty solid at reducing severe disease/deaths which is great.

But it's definitely not 6k tops either. There's no way considering how underreported these systems are. It's already above 11k.

But regardless, my point is the same, informed consent and personal choice in this instance are very important. Coercion is not cool when it comes to putting something in your body.

 

[miltonap]

Immunizations from many vaccinations wane over time. That's the reason kids get booster shots for many vaccinations. That's one reason flu shots are annual; the flu virus mutates or new versions come out, but resistance also isn't lifetime for the shot you do get. So what?

I don't think you understand that all vaccines can't be one shot for life. It just doesn't work that way. You are establishing unrealistic goals or outcomes and then holding that up to be the end-all be-all of your vaccination wish list. Why?

Annual boosters may be required. We don't know yet. New formulations may be required. We don't know yet. A sterilizing vaccine may be imminent. We don't know yet.

What we do know is that the current vaccines are generally safe (per the trial studies, FDA review and subsequent approval, and 160+ million vaccinated and generally health in the USA alone already), they slow the spread of the virus, they keep those that get the vaccine out of hospitals with serious complications (99%± of hospitalizations are from the <50% of unvaccinated population in the USA), and they vastly reduce the number of dead (99%± of the deaths are from the <50% of unvaccinated population in the USA as well). The shots are available free of charge to anyone in the USA except children, and trials are underway on that age group. Why can't you accept that as a fantastic starting point to protect the public from a worldwide pandemic?

The goal of a vaccine right now isn't to necessarily offer lifetime immunization in 1 shot, although that would be ideal. The goal is to save lives in the short term, stop the pandemic, and keep people out of the hospitals and morgues. Hospitals overflowing with COVID patients can't give them the need they require, can't help patients with other health issues effectively, and the hospital workers get overwhelmed and burned out. Morgues were overflowing where refrigerated trucks had to be used for body storage. Mass graves were required for burying the dead. Let's focus on priorities here and not the pie-in-the-sky wish list that some seem to have and then they berate the medical profession for not meeting. It's called triage at this point. Tackle the immediate problem, then move on to doing it better with more research.

I actually don't disagree with most of what you're saying here, perhaps besides your comment about stopping the pandemic.

It's really just more of the coercion, lack of transparency/lack of informed consent that doesn't sit well with me and frankly I don't think should sit well with anyone. A lot of things that have been done and pushed don't even follow the science.

 

[macadocious]

@miltonap I dont even know what you are talking about at this point. The Moderna and Pfizer vaccine were ~95% against contracting the alpha variant, they are ~88% against the delta, and still 99%+/- against severe infection and death.

 

[steelevt]

With infection protection clearly waning in the vaccinated, why do you assume herd immunity would be achievable with these current vaccines ? I think the big trouble here is that the organism finds resistance against these vaccines. Then what ? I think depending on these vaccines to provide herd immunity is a big mistake.

I think the goal should be driving this pathogen to extinction, I don't see it with these vaccines. Maybe if they induced higher iGA/responses in order to get transmission rates much lower.

But we're already seeing it's starting to fail there

I believe with the current vaccine, herd immunity was possible. But with so many people politicizing the issue of covid/masks/vaccines more people than ever are resisting the efforts. Extending how long the virus is kept alive and spreading, now the waning you mentioned comes into play along with not reaching the % needed to vaccinate in the first place to reach herd immunity.

 

[Warhawk]

@miltonap I dont even know what you are talking about at this point. The Moderna and Pfizer vaccine were ~95% against contracting the alpha variant, they are ~88% against the delta, and still 99%+/- against severe infection and death.

Is 40-70% infection protection acceptable ? And this is right now. If it was 90-95% and this were done at a massive global rapid scale perhaps ? And you would have to cross your fingers that no resistant mutation develops.

At this point miltonap, you are just making stuff up.

 

[Warhawk]

I actually don't disagree with most of what you're saying here, perhaps besides your comment about stopping the pandemic.

It's really just more of the coercion, lack of transparency/lack of informed consent that doesn't sit well with me and frankly I don't think should sit well with anyone. A lot of things that have been done and pushed don't even follow the science.

I have no idea what you are even talking about.

 

[chief bromden]

Aside from the fact that I think that value is incorrect (per macadocious), how does the possible MAXIMUM of 6,000± deaths (likely significantly less) compare to the 610,000+ deaths in the USA from COVID and the millions of hospitalizations and unknown number of long COVID patients (some estimates are 25% of COVID cases will suffer from long COVID) that will have ongoing health issues after contracting it?

Methinks you are not seeing the forest for the trees.

1 out of every 540 people in the USA has died in the last year and a half from COVID. Read that number again. The life expectancy in the USA dropped by 1.5 years last year due largely to COVID. And that is with rapid generation/production of vaccines, expedited FDA approval, the USA being at the forefront of buying vaccinations and distributing them (especially the last 6 months), 50% of the population being fully vaccinated at this time, and enough vaccine shots being available for everyone in the country for free.

With the Delta variant being more transmissible and becoming the most dominant strain in the USA, the infection rate is rising again and hospitals in some areas are again being overwhelmed with patients. 99%(±) of those hospitalized and dying are the unvaccinated. We are going to see another surge in hospitalizations and deaths over the coming months, and they are almost entirely preventable.

Don't the vaccines only have emergency approval, and not 'expedited approval'?

I'm vaccinated myself because I'm cool with it, but if people are holding back because it hasn't gone through the proper FDA approval procedure then I'm cool with that too. If someone were pregnant, I'd hope they'd think twice about getting the vaccine. I know it's been decades now, but let's not forget about the whole thalidomide tragedy.

 

[Warhawk]

I think there's a large difference in the drive to want to murder someone and the drive to want to submit a fake report on VAERS.

And yes I agree that there's flaws and it sucks. More emphasis should have been placed on safety, the FDA had the opportunity to do so and they flat out didn't.

That's part of the problem people have. They know people personally that have been injured by these vaccines, they've listened to doctors and experts that have needed to treat vaccine injured folk, and everything you see on social media is oh this thing is so safe, adverse events are super rare, let's inject the children, let's inject people even though they have existing immunity shown through lab testing, inject yourself to protect your community, people sense the dishonesty.

And it is probably for that reason many have chosen not to buy what the government is selling. Too many things have not added up and are clearly not following the science.

Not when political beliefs come into play. We aren't going to dig into the political side of things AT ALL, but believe me that when politics can intrude into health matters (as it obviously has the USA COVID response), I can easily see people of certain political persuasions deciding to sabotage a self-reporting system in order to score political points. I'll leave it at that.

More emphasis should have been placed on safety? Like what? Detailed clinical trials of tens of thousands looking for any side effects? The FDA continuing to monitor doctor-reported side effects after their initial authorization to use these vaccines? Documented rates of hospitalizations and deaths from COVID from vaccinated and unvaccinated folks? It's all been/being done. You act like cousin Mel just whipped up some concoction in his garage and is trying to get folks to go swim in it after promising eternal life to anyone who pays him $19.95 to take a dip.

I think you are listening to too many conspiracy theories. Believe me - after 160,000,000 people in the USA have already been vaccinated in a year if there were significant #s of side effects, we'd be seeing it. But we aren't! Other than one or two folks who I know aren't vaccinated, everyone I know has been vaccinated with no side effects other than mild symptoms the first couple days. Home, work, family, friends, everyone. I know people who have had long COVID and at least a couple who have died from COVID. I know that's all anecdotal, but so are your examples. There are no verified and documented reports of widespread issues. There are a few documented very rare side effects, and those are being studied, as they should.

The vaccines are generally safe, much safer by orders of magnitude than not getting vaccinated, and deaths and hospitalizations from COVID are 99%± in the unvaccinated population. Let's worry about stopping the pandemic and stop coming up with nonsense to mislead folks.

 

[Warhawk]

Don't the vaccines only have emergency approval, and not 'expedited approval'?

I'm vaccinated myself because I'm cool with it, but if people are holding back because it hasn't gone through the proper FDA approval procedure then I'm cool with that too. If someone were pregnant, I'd hope they'd think twice about getting the vaccine. I know it's been decades now, but let's not forget about the whole thalidomide tragedy.

Emergency approval is an approval for early use based on results of trial studies. My understanding is they are likely to start getting full FDA authorization as soon as next month.

I've already said that certain people may want to check with their doctors for legitimate concerns with their particular health issues. I'm 100% behind any "non-quack" doctor making a legitimate determination on something like that. But we see folks shopping for doctors that will sign off on anything vaccine-related for a buck, too (or because they believe the anti-vaxxer misinformation). That's not what I would consider "legitimate".

 

[miltonap]

At this point miltonap, you are just making stuff up.

If I'm making stuff up, then the health ministry of Israel is also making stuff up. Go on, search the latest reports from the health ministry of Israel. It's public information

 

[miltonap]

I have no idea what you are even talking about.

Do you know what informed consent is ? Its not happening fyi. Do you know what coercion is ? Its happening and pretty obvious.

 

[Pacboy]

Do you know what informed consent is ? Its not happening fyi. Do you know what coercion is ? Its happening and pretty obvious.

You do realize you have to sign a consent form before any vaccine right? Hell you have to consent even for getting a blood transfusion or even accepting any medical care practically.

 

[miltonap]

Not when political beliefs come into play. We aren't going to dig into the political side of things AT ALL, but believe me that when politics can intrude into health matters (as it obviously has the USA COVID response), I can easily see people of certain political persuasions deciding to sabotage a self-reporting system in order to score political points. I'll leave it at that.

More emphasis should have been placed on safety? Like what? Detailed clinical trials of tens of thousands looking for any side effects? The FDA continuing to monitor doctor-reported side effects after their initial authorization to use these vaccines? Documented rates of hospitalizations and deaths from COVID from vaccinated and unvaccinated folks? It's all been/being done. You act like cousin Mel just whipped up some concoction in his garage and is trying to get folks to go swim in it after promising eternal life to anyone who pays him $19.95 to take a dip.

I think you are listening to too many conspiracy theories. Believe me - after 160,000,000 people in the USA have already been vaccinated in a year if there were significant #s of side effects, we'd be seeing it. But we aren't! Other than one or two folks who I know aren't vaccinated, everyone I know has been vaccinated with no side effects other than mild symptoms the first couple days. Home, work, family, friends, everyone. I know people who have had long COVID and at least a couple who have died from COVID. I know that's all anecdotal, but so are your examples. There are no verified and documented reports of widespread issues. There are a few documented very rare side effects, and those are being studied, as they should.

The vaccines are generally safe, much safer by orders of magnitude than not getting vaccinated, and deaths and hospitalizations from COVID are 99%± in the unvaccinated population. Let's worry about stopping the pandemic and stop coming up with nonsense to mislead folks.

Safety is not nonsense. Ensuring safety takes time to vet. The self-reporting systems with the flaws they have are reporting side effects of orders of magnitude more than any other vaccine that's been on the market.

Listen to doctors, experts, scientists that have been doing this work for DECADES reporting what they are seeing with covid 19 vaccine injured folk. THEY HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS WITH OTHER VACCINES.

Are you really just going to base things off what the CDC or FDA tells you ? What if they're compromised organizations ? Do you know what regulatory capture is ?

I'd suggest you look into the history of the last 18 months and see how much these agencies have been wrong. They're not these gods of science you think they are.

You also say you know no one that has had bad side effects, well my family has.

And I'm also not saying that it's more likely one gets a severe side effect than not, of course not. But what I am saying is that there's a concerning signal that these things aren't quite as safe as was touted, and this absolutely matters when you're trying to coerce people to get a jab.

You also put a lot of stock into the FDA. Again, the FDA deliberately chose not to require the vaccine manufacturers to stringently follow vaccine effects post vaccinations.

Safety shortcuts WERE taken despite what Google tells you. This is from people that work directly with the FDA.

 

[Section 101]

@miltonap I dont even know what you are talking about at this point. The Moderna and Pfizer vaccine were ~95% against contracting the alpha variant, they are ~88% against the delta, and still 99%+/- against severe infection and death.

No they are not. Israel reported Pfizer being 63% 2 weeks ago against delta and it's down to 39%. And down to 91% against severe infection/death.

Oh and the delta variant was traced back to a women who was fully vaccinated bringing it into Israel via flying in from out of the country.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/del...ective-in-israel-prevents-severe-illness.html

 

[miltonap]

You do realize you have to sign a consent form before any vaccine right? Hell you have to consent even for getting a blood transfusion or even accepting any medical care practically.

Please look into what informed consent actually is. There's pillars to it and it's extremely important.

 

[miltonap]

Emergency approval is an approval for early use based on results of trial studies. My understanding is they are likely to start getting full FDA authorization as soon as next month.

I've already said that certain people may want to check with their doctors for legitimate concerns with their particular health issues. I'm 100% behind any "non-quack" doctor making a legitimate determination on something like that. But we see folks shopping for doctors that will sign off on anything vaccine-related for a buck, too (or because they believe the anti-vaxxer misinformation). That's not what I would consider "legitimate".

No one here is saying they're injecting 5g into our veins. There's plenty of people and doctors that have chosen not to get these vaccines based off scientific rationale.

 

[Section 101]

Not when political beliefs come into play. We aren't going to dig into the political side of things AT ALL, but believe me that when politics can intrude into health matters (as it obviously has the USA COVID response), I can easily see people of certain political persuasions deciding to sabotage a self-reporting system in order to score political points. I'll leave it at that.

More emphasis should have been placed on safety? Like what? Detailed clinical trials of tens of thousands looking for any side effects? The FDA continuing to monitor doctor-reported side effects after their initial authorization to use these vaccines? Documented rates of hospitalizations and deaths from COVID from vaccinated and unvaccinated folks? It's all been/being done. You act like cousin Mel just whipped up some concoction in his garage and is trying to get folks to go swim in it after promising eternal life to anyone who pays him $19.95 to take a dip.

I think you are listening to too many conspiracy theories. Believe me - after 160,000,000 people in the USA have already been vaccinated in a year if there were significant #s of side effects, we'd be seeing it. But we aren't! Other than one or two folks who I know aren't vaccinated, everyone I know has been vaccinated with no side effects other than mild symptoms the first couple days. Home, work, family, friends, everyone. I know people who have had long COVID and at least a couple who have died from COVID. I know that's all anecdotal, but so are your examples. There are no verified and documented reports of widespread issues. There are a few documented very rare side effects, and those are being studied, as they should.

The vaccines are generally safe, much safer by orders of magnitude than not getting vaccinated, and deaths and hospitalizations from COVID are 99%± in the unvaccinated population. Let's worry about stopping the pandemic and stop coming up with nonsense to mislead folks.

What are the long term effects? I'm talking 5 and 10 years out. There is already reports of delayed bells palsy for the Pfizer vaccine. What happens after your first or fifth booster shot? Hint, we can't know because it hasn't been long enough yet.

This is what bugs me the most. Covid deaths counted everyone who died with covid. Die in a car accident and test positive, COVID!. But now for the breakthrough cases they are only counting those who die or are hospitalized. So the initial numbers are inflated and now they change the rules so the numbers are deflated. 86.89 % of these stats are fabricated for both sides.

 

[Pacboy]

Please look into what informed consent actually is. There's pillars to it and it's extremely important.

What are you even taking about.

 

[miltonap]

What are you even taking about.

Bioethics. Learn about it

 

[Pacboy]

Bioethics. Learn about it

Lol right…

 

[pdxKingsFan]

When does someone tell him or do we let this go on?