The Sports And COVID Vaccine Thread
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They've been researched but never approved for use so lets not act like this is a run of the mill situation.
If you're at risk and vaccinated, then you don't have much to worry about. If you catch covid, the vaccine will make the symptoms much less severe than if you were unvaccinated. Problem solved. Should the NFL force their players to get a flu shot every year as well? At what point during the slippery slope would you deem it not okay to coerce medical care upon people who don't need it?
If you're at risk and vaccinated, then you don't have much to worry about. If you catch covid, the vaccine will make the symptoms much less severe than if you were unvaccinated. Problem solved. Should the NFL force their players to get a flu shot every year as well? At what point during the slippery slope would you deem it not okay to coerce medical care upon people who don't need it?
Actually, the FDA HAS approved it for use in this vaccine; that's the reason it's available for use in the USA. It's had over a decade of research behind it.
Millions of people get the flu shot every year as well, including me and our family (we have been getting it every year for over a decade). I'm fine with it being mandatory if the NFL wants it to be. Remember, the Supreme Court has already said that it is constitutional for companies to require vaccinations for work. The problem is not enough people get it. That's why it still spreads like it does every year.
Higher rates of flu (and other) vaccinations would save a lot of lives. Just like all the vaccines that are already mandatory for schools, international travel, etc., do.
Millions of people get the flu shot every year as well, including me and our family (we have been getting it every year for over a decade). I'm fine with it being mandatory if the NFL wants it to be. Remember, the Supreme Court has already said that it is constitutional for companies to require vaccinations for work. The problem is not enough people get it. That's why it still spreads like it does every year.
Higher rates of flu (and other) vaccinations would save a lot of lives. Just like all the vaccines that are already mandatory for schools, international travel, etc., do.
Why do you think so? You're staking out the philosophical position that a private entity should not protect its financial interests and/or invest in the safety of everyone it employs if doing so infringes upon an individual employee's ability to make decisions regarding their own body. Second-hand smoke is dangerous. The smell is also unseemly to most people in a modern context and can drive away business. Hence the desire of many companies to ensure a smoke-free environment for their employees and for their patrons despite the fact that doing so infringes upon smokers' decisions regarding their own bodies.
And sure, plenty of smokers reacted to public smoking bans with eye-rolls and disdain, but it's a clear instance of social and professional structures adapting to the needs of the group, particularly after the science illustrated the dangers of inhaling second-hand smoke. The stakes are lower in this example I've provided than they are for the pandemic we're presently enduring, so I see little reason why social and professional structures shouldn't adapt once again. The Delta variant of COVID-19 was just declared by the CDC to be one of the most transmissible viruses in existence. Further mutation could render it more dangerous still, unless we choke off its supply of hosts via mass vaccination.
This is America. One is free not to get the vaccine if one has hesitations of any kind. That's one's right, whether one's decisions are informed by the science or not. But don't expect society to embrace one's reticence in the face of hard data that suggests exceedingly rare instances of side effects pale in comparison to the extraordinary number of lives that can be saved if a high rate of vaccination is achieved. And certainly don't expect employers to accommodate one's hesitance when they have larger group-related concerns to consider. Professional sports leagues are under no obligation to babysit the trepidations of those who are only doing the math that's relevant to their own health. The picture is always bigger than one. I mean, come on, these are team sports, for goodness' sake.
And sure, plenty of smokers reacted to public smoking bans with eye-rolls and disdain, but it's a clear instance of social and professional structures adapting to the needs of the group, particularly after the science illustrated the dangers of inhaling second-hand smoke. The stakes are lower in this example I've provided than they are for the pandemic we're presently enduring, so I see little reason why social and professional structures shouldn't adapt once again. The Delta variant of COVID-19 was just declared by the CDC to be one of the most transmissible viruses in existence. Further mutation could render it more dangerous still, unless we choke off its supply of hosts via mass vaccination.
This is America. One is free not to get the vaccine if one has hesitations of any kind. That's one's right, whether one's decisions are informed by the science or not. But don't expect society to embrace one's reticence in the face of hard data that suggests exceedingly rare instances of side effects pale in comparison to the extraordinary number of lives that can be saved if a high rate of vaccination is achieved. And certainly don't expect employers to accommodate one's hesitance when they have larger group-related concerns to consider. Professional sports leagues are under no obligation to babysit the trepidations of those who are only doing the math that's relevant to their own health. The picture is always bigger than one. I mean, come on, these are team sports, for goodness' sake.
Well, that's up to the NFL to decide, just like any employer determines the level of risk (and liability) they're willing to assume when it comes to the safety of those they employ. But, as has been repeated ad nauseum across the last year-and-a-half by epidemiologists, doctors, and various others in the medical sciences, COVID-19 and modern strains of influenza are simply not comparable, not in their transmissibility nor in their mortality rate. On average, approximately 36,000 Americans have died of the flu each year across the last decade. Vaccines, our species' long-term exposure to influenza, and the associated immunities we've built up have rendered the flu considerably less deadly than it was a century ago.
COVID-19, on the other hand, is a novel coronavirus. It's something new. We haven't yet built up any kind of immunity to this f***er, and the damn thing is still mutating because not enough people have been vaccinated to aid in the exhausting of its supply of available hosts. Approximately 345,000 Americans died of COVID-19 last year. That's just a few more than the 36,000 who die of the flu each year in the US, wouldn't you say? Mandating employee vaccination against COVID-19 is hardly like forcing those same employees to get the flu shot. It's a looooooooooong way down your slippery slope to arrive at that particular conclusion.
And unlike the vast majority of office environments, NFL players are forced by the very nature of their jobs into up-close and outright physical contact with one another continually. The same goes for the NBA, though to a lesser degree. It's hardly a surprise to me that the increased risk of exposure due to regular physical contact within their respective sports would create an environment where the NFL and the NBA felt it necessary to draft strict measures around vaccination.
Story Time: I had a friend in college named Jen. Jen shared with me that she had a childhood friend who was killed in a car crash by strangulation from her seatbelt. As a result of this outlier occurrence, Jen developed a paralyzing, irrational fear of seatbelts that she carried with her into any vehicle she entered. She never wore one when she drove. It was her right to make that choice with her body in her own car, despite the data and the law and literally everyone else in her life telling her otherwise. But when she entered my car, you can bet your a** that I demanded she put on her seatbelt. I was not going to be responsible for her death in the event of an accident. I refused to drive the car a single inch until it was fastened. If she had chosen not to wear her seatbelt, I would have [kindly] expressed that she could drive herself or find another ride. She begrudgingly put it on, because not all personal choices exist in a vacuum void of other people who might be impacted in some meaningful way by those very same choices.
COVID-19, on the other hand, is a novel coronavirus. It's something new. We haven't yet built up any kind of immunity to this f***er, and the damn thing is still mutating because not enough people have been vaccinated to aid in the exhausting of its supply of available hosts. Approximately 345,000 Americans died of COVID-19 last year. That's just a few more than the 36,000 who die of the flu each year in the US, wouldn't you say? Mandating employee vaccination against COVID-19 is hardly like forcing those same employees to get the flu shot. It's a looooooooooong way down your slippery slope to arrive at that particular conclusion.
And unlike the vast majority of office environments, NFL players are forced by the very nature of their jobs into up-close and outright physical contact with one another continually. The same goes for the NBA, though to a lesser degree. It's hardly a surprise to me that the increased risk of exposure due to regular physical contact within their respective sports would create an environment where the NFL and the NBA felt it necessary to draft strict measures around vaccination.
Story Time: I had a friend in college named Jen. Jen shared with me that she had a childhood friend who was killed in a car crash by strangulation from her seatbelt. As a result of this outlier occurrence, Jen developed a paralyzing, irrational fear of seatbelts that she carried with her into any vehicle she entered. She never wore one when she drove. It was her right to make that choice with her body in her own car, despite the data and the law and literally everyone else in her life telling her otherwise. But when she entered my car, you can bet your a** that I demanded she put on her seatbelt. I was not going to be responsible for her death in the event of an accident. I refused to drive the car a single inch until it was fastened. If she had chosen not to wear her seatbelt, I would have [kindly] expressed that she could drive herself or find another ride. She begrudgingly put it on, because not all personal choices exist in a vacuum void of other people who might be impacted in some meaningful way by those very same choices.
I am pro vaccine. Voluntary vaccination that is. I have lost the details whether this is something that the players association has agreed to or not. Or give the players a lifetime insurance policy for any ill-effects that can be directly linked to the vaccine. Or going forward include it into the contracts.
If the player's association has agreed to it, mute point. If they have not, the NBA needs to take responsibility for any liability that may come as a result. This can be mitigated by including this requirement into a new contract signed if the terminology was not already there. And if it is already, this is also a mute point.
If the players association hasn't agreed to this, are they going to impose the same rules to the spectators? No smoking applies to all. No shirt, no shoes, No Service also applies to all.
If the player's association has agreed to it, mute point. If they have not, the NBA needs to take responsibility for any liability that may come as a result. This can be mitigated by including this requirement into a new contract signed if the terminology was not already there. And if it is already, this is also a mute point.
If the players association hasn't agreed to this, are they going to impose the same rules to the spectators? No smoking applies to all. No shirt, no shoes, No Service also applies to all.
I'm down with that. They should, if they aren't already, be imposing that requirement. I will say that my son and I went to the G1C to catch the last Kings game this season where everyone was supposed to be vaccinated or have a negative test result before entry. We had our vaccination cards with us, but nobody was checking at the door. They were relying on the honor system and warnings when you bought the tickets. That's not good enough.
My comment was sarcastic in nature. The immunization shots aren't for everybody. There are those are extremely sensitive to medications. There are those whose health conditions would cause health providers to either recommend not getting or at the very least delay getting.
Are you ready for flu shots being mandatory? What would be next?
There are still unknowns concerning long-term impacts from the shots. Isreal who was one of the first to really push the vaccinations are now seeing decreased protection over time. Those two things seem contradictory to me.
I wish neither side had made it a political issue. Both sides wanted their political scores and much of the resistance is a result of the collateral damage caused. There will always be the very miniscule minority that would oppose but the mixed messaging hasn't helped. Opposition however isn't unique to the USA.
Are you ready for flu shots being mandatory? What would be next?
There are still unknowns concerning long-term impacts from the shots. Isreal who was one of the first to really push the vaccinations are now seeing decreased protection over time. Those two things seem contradictory to me.
I wish neither side had made it a political issue. Both sides wanted their political scores and much of the resistance is a result of the collateral damage caused. There will always be the very miniscule minority that would oppose but the mixed messaging hasn't helped. Opposition however isn't unique to the USA.
I know there are a very small number who can't get certain vaccinations, etc., for whatever reason. Obviously medical exceptions can be made for those with legitimate medical need as determined by a medical professional approved by whatever organizations are imposing those restrictions (NBA, NFL, whatever).
Personally, I am ready for mandatory vaccinations for many things. We already have them for many diseases that kids get. I'm OK adding influenza and COVID to that list. The risks to society and/or the organizations is greater without them than with them.
Some vaccinations are more frequent than others for just that reason. So what?
And I agree on the political issue. We won't go there. But that has caused so many unneeded hospitalizations/deaths/long term illnesses it's mind-boggling.
Personally, I am ready for mandatory vaccinations for many things. We already have them for many diseases that kids get. I'm OK adding influenza and COVID to that list. The risks to society and/or the organizations is greater without them than with them.
Some vaccinations are more frequent than others for just that reason. So what?
And I agree on the political issue. We won't go there. But that has caused so many unneeded hospitalizations/deaths/long term illnesses it's mind-boggling.
I don't know what part of these aren't sterilising vaccines you guys don't understand.
Infection protection is waning. Pay attention to Israel, UK, other countries.
THESE vaccines do not prevent transmission, say it out loud. Therefore the altruism that NFL players need to protect their coaches or that people need to protect their communities and that they will be able to do so with these vaccines is just not scientific.
What we do know RIGHT NOW is that they still seem to be effective at preventing severe disease and death. And you know what that means ? People that get the vaccine should be protected and shouldn't be focusing so much on unvaccinated people considering the above that I wrote at the beginning of my post.
Regarding variants of concern, why is there this assumption that variants of concern are not being produced by vaccinated folk ? After all, this vaccine targets a very specific part of Sars-cov-2, the spike protein, and doesn't elicit such a such a strong iGA/T-cell response like other vaccines that are being developed right now.
There is nothing stopping the virus from being able to mutate and evade the immunity provided by the current vaccines. That's why no one can say with a straight face how long immunity will last, because they don't know.
So I say provide INFORMED CONSENT, NFL included, of the benefits and unknowns of these vaccines to the players and staff. And let it be THEIR choice of whether they get it or not.
And I haven't even covered safety. There is a concerning safety signal of these vaccines for those paying attention. Saying side effects are very rare is an understatement in my opinion.
I'm paying attention to what independent experts are saying- doctors, nurses, neurologists that have had to treat covid 19 vaccine injured folk- heart inflammation, clotting, neurological issues, etc.
The H1N1 vaccine was pulled from the market after having caused 25 deaths , we are up to nearly 11k reported covid-19 vaccine deaths in the US alone.
And this shouldn't be that surprising, safety shortcuts WERE taken for these vaccines due to the necessity of the pandemic. This isn't my opinion, this is from people who work closely with the FDA.
Coercing people to take these products should be illegal in my opinion and is completely unethical, proper informed consent is a must, which is simply not happening.
Infection protection is waning. Pay attention to Israel, UK, other countries.
THESE vaccines do not prevent transmission, say it out loud. Therefore the altruism that NFL players need to protect their coaches or that people need to protect their communities and that they will be able to do so with these vaccines is just not scientific.
What we do know RIGHT NOW is that they still seem to be effective at preventing severe disease and death. And you know what that means ? People that get the vaccine should be protected and shouldn't be focusing so much on unvaccinated people considering the above that I wrote at the beginning of my post.
Regarding variants of concern, why is there this assumption that variants of concern are not being produced by vaccinated folk ? After all, this vaccine targets a very specific part of Sars-cov-2, the spike protein, and doesn't elicit such a such a strong iGA/T-cell response like other vaccines that are being developed right now.
There is nothing stopping the virus from being able to mutate and evade the immunity provided by the current vaccines. That's why no one can say with a straight face how long immunity will last, because they don't know.
So I say provide INFORMED CONSENT, NFL included, of the benefits and unknowns of these vaccines to the players and staff. And let it be THEIR choice of whether they get it or not.
And I haven't even covered safety. There is a concerning safety signal of these vaccines for those paying attention. Saying side effects are very rare is an understatement in my opinion.
I'm paying attention to what independent experts are saying- doctors, nurses, neurologists that have had to treat covid 19 vaccine injured folk- heart inflammation, clotting, neurological issues, etc.
The H1N1 vaccine was pulled from the market after having caused 25 deaths , we are up to nearly 11k reported covid-19 vaccine deaths in the US alone.
And this shouldn't be that surprising, safety shortcuts WERE taken for these vaccines due to the necessity of the pandemic. This isn't my opinion, this is from people who work closely with the FDA.
Coercing people to take these products should be illegal in my opinion and is completely unethical, proper informed consent is a must, which is simply not happening.
It's completely different because on one hand, a smoker is doing something purposely that is affecting the people around them. They have to make the conscious decision to light up around a group of people and either annoy them with the smell or affect their health with the smoke. An unvaccinated person is being demonized for simply existing. They aren't sick with covid and purposely going around and infecting people. They are having the finger pointed at them for being out in public without blindly trusting a hastily made vaccine.
The slippery slope is real whether you want to admit it or not. Freedoms never come back to you once you give them up. The next step could be being forced to get a flu shot every year. Then what if you have a cold? You could potentially give the cold to an older coach, who could develop pneumonia and die. Should the NFL be forced to do something about that? Should masks be mandated for the rest of eternity to keep us from getting each other sick? There is seemingly no end point to this if the game is played this way and it will be played out as long as it can be politicized and as long as it's good for big business.
If the vaccine kept people from being able to transmit the virus to others, then it would make more sense but information is coming out that it's not and that it's mainly just keeping people from getting as sick once they contract it. An in shape NFL player should not have to worry about the side effects that he's possibly going to get from a vaccine that isn't going to do much of anything for him anyway. It should be that player's choice to risk the side effects or risk the virus, the same way it's a coach's choice to protect his or herself or not. I get it that the NFL is business but this isn't some humanitarian effort being made by them to save lives. It's all about dollars. It's just frustrating to see people being coerced into getting a shot that they don't trust in order to be able to keep their jobs and avoid being a pariah.
The slippery slope is real whether you want to admit it or not. Freedoms never come back to you once you give them up. The next step could be being forced to get a flu shot every year. Then what if you have a cold? You could potentially give the cold to an older coach, who could develop pneumonia and die. Should the NFL be forced to do something about that? Should masks be mandated for the rest of eternity to keep us from getting each other sick? There is seemingly no end point to this if the game is played this way and it will be played out as long as it can be politicized and as long as it's good for big business.
If the vaccine kept people from being able to transmit the virus to others, then it would make more sense but information is coming out that it's not and that it's mainly just keeping people from getting as sick once they contract it. An in shape NFL player should not have to worry about the side effects that he's possibly going to get from a vaccine that isn't going to do much of anything for him anyway. It should be that player's choice to risk the side effects or risk the virus, the same way it's a coach's choice to protect his or herself or not. I get it that the NFL is business but this isn't some humanitarian effort being made by them to save lives. It's all about dollars. It's just frustrating to see people being coerced into getting a shot that they don't trust in order to be able to keep their jobs and avoid being a pariah.
Indistinguishable from purposely infecting people? That's absolutely absurd that you jumped to that conclusion.
Advocating demonizing people for possibly having a virus is absolutely crazy. A vaccinated person could also have the virus and they would have higher odds of being asymptomatic and would also be indistinguishable from purposefully infecting people as you put it.
You aren't catching me in a gotcha. I get to choose what I put into my own body. The general public does not. If I deem it necessary to drink alcohol to have a good time at a party, I'm making my own personal decision to do something that is destructive to my body because that's what I want to do that night.
If we want to get into semantics, we can also start talking about regulating the overall health and nutrition of every person in the world in order to protect themselves from themselves but that would be a bit radical, wouldn't it?
Advocating demonizing people for possibly having a virus is absolutely crazy. A vaccinated person could also have the virus and they would have higher odds of being asymptomatic and would also be indistinguishable from purposefully infecting people as you put it.
You aren't catching me in a gotcha. I get to choose what I put into my own body. The general public does not. If I deem it necessary to drink alcohol to have a good time at a party, I'm making my own personal decision to do something that is destructive to my body because that's what I want to do that night.
If we want to get into semantics, we can also start talking about regulating the overall health and nutrition of every person in the world in order to protect themselves from themselves but that would be a bit radical, wouldn't it?
I have a history of adverse reactions to flu shots so it is a year by year decision whether I get them. If I opt out I won't get a flu shot sticker at work and as a result have to wear masks if I go into patient facing or clinical areas as a result. It makes sense to me to apply the same standard to COVID nationwide.
Well yes, that's precisely the issue. As someone who doesn't fit into the American political structure I actually sympathize with some of those grievances and the narrative on the other side that folks who are skeptical are just stupid a-holes. But as far as I'm concerned you get to choose to be skeptical and then take natural precautions or you can take the vaccine and throw all caution to the wind. I'm actually not entirely convinced either option is correct, but that is part of the "carrot" approach in my estimation here - if you get your vaccine you get to pretend like its over. Not sure that's going to work out, but at least it's something to sway the fence sitters.
What about "demonizing" people for not having empathy for other people? Are we allowed to do that? There are people who can't get vaccinated, because of pre-existing medical conditions, and they're counting on the rest of us to do what's right. And anti-vaxxers are looking back at them, and saying, "Nah."
And the difference is that a vaccinated person has done everything that could reasonably be expected of them to avoid passing it on to other people... That's actually a pretty important distinction.
Your right to swing your arms around ends at my nose.
And the difference is that a vaccinated person has done everything that could reasonably be expected of them to avoid passing it on to other people... That's actually a pretty important distinction.
Your right to swing your arms around ends at my nose.
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