The Sports And COVID Vaccine Thread

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

A vaccinated individual can still be a carrier. Effects may be mitigated for that individual but not necessarily for those they infect. And if those infected haven't been vaccinated THAT is on them. Their choice AND their risk. I choose vaccinated AND those risks are on me.

Well, except that their choice also puts other people at risk; people who don't necessarily have to option to choose to get vaccinated, or not.

And, if you want to exercise your right to not get vaccinated, do that. Nobody's stopping you. But I have no sympathy for people whose choices cost them their employment. You might have a right to work but you don't have a right to a specific job, and anti-vaxxer is not a protected class, that's entitled to protection under EEOC laws. If your employer says, "Get the jab, or get fired," and you say, "I'm not getting the jab," and then you get fired, you have successfully exercised your rights, and those rights have not been violated, in any way.

 

[steelevt]

It's completely different because on one hand, a smoker is doing something purposely that is affecting the people around them. They have to make the conscious decision to light up around a group of people and either annoy them with the smell or affect their health with the smoke. An unvaccinated person is being demonized for simply existing. They aren't sick with covid and purposely going around and infecting people. They are having the finger pointed at them for being out in public without blindly trusting a hastily made vaccine.

The slippery slope is real whether you want to admit it or not. Freedoms never come back to you once you give them up. The next step could be being forced to get a flu shot every year. Then what if you have a cold? You could potentially give the cold to an older coach, who could develop pneumonia and die. Should the NFL be forced to do something about that? Should masks be mandated for the rest of eternity to keep us from getting each other sick? There is seemingly no end point to this if the game is played this way and it will be played out as long as it can be politicized and as long as it's good for big business.

If the vaccine kept people from being able to transmit the virus to others, then it would make more sense but information is coming out that it's not and that it's mainly just keeping people from getting as sick once they contract it. An in shape NFL player should not have to worry about the side effects that he's possibly going to get from a vaccine that isn't going to do much of anything for him anyway. It should be that player's choice to risk the side effects or risk the virus, the same way it's a coach's choice to protect his or herself or not. I get it that the NFL is business but this isn't some humanitarian effort being made by them to save lives. It's all about dollars. It's just frustrating to see people being coerced into getting a shot that they don't trust in order to be able to keep their jobs and avoid being a pariah.

Though I believe everyone should get the covid shot to help stop the spread, I understand some people can’t or some people won’t for whatever reason. I don’t consider all of them the same as smokers but my problem is with the ones that won’t get the shot AND won’t mask up or distance either. If you aren’t vaccinated but take precautions, I’d consider that different from lighting that cigarette, but purposely not wearing a mask and not social distancing while not vaccinated, that is a conscious decision just like lighting up around others. I understand the slippery slope but until a-holes start caring about others instead of their “rights” cuz “This is Murica!”, something has to be done to protect those that can’t be protected. If a private company like the nfl/hospitals/“enter whatever company here_____” wants to protect their product/employees/fans whatever, it’s their “right”. If you don’t like it, you have the “right” to leave as an employee/fan/customer. It’s pretty simple as long as they make some type of accommodation like section for masked non positive fans, delivery or shopping for the customer, or don’t get vaccinated, fine but you cause a nfl game to be canceled, you don’t get paid.

 

[macadocious]

FWIW, I put a vaccination policy in place at my place of business. I checked with a lawyer, and a 3rd party HR company, they both said it was perfectly legal to do so. My clientele is mostly in the at risk category from age and health. I personally could not put them at risk, nor could I have an employee put them at risk.

That being said, the day it was legal to get my kids vaccinated, they were first in line. Literally.

I want life back to normal, I am doing everything I can to do that.

 

[whozit]

And, if you want to exercise your right to not get vaccinated, do that. Nobody's stopping you. But I have no sympathy for people whose choices cost them their employment. You might have a right to work but you don't have a right to a specific job, and anti-vaxxer is not a protected class, that's entitled to protection under EEOC laws. If your employer says, "Get the jab, or get fired," and you say, "I'm not getting the jab," and then you get fired, you have successfully exercised your rights, and those rights have not been violated, in any way.

I am vaccinated but I respect the rights of those not wanting to for whatever reason. I have a coworker who is furious at me. Our employer did a survey for who had the vaccine. If everyone was vaccinated some of the restrictions could possibly be lifted. There was only one person in our facility that wasn't vaccinated. I didn't know that fact until she told me. She asked if I knew who but I wouldn't tell who it was. I didn't care if she knew I knew or not. I had found out in casual conversation but it wasn't her business to know or mine to tell. I would rather continue wearing masks than force someone to take something they weren't comfortable with. I suspect that individual will eventually get the shots but just isn't ready yet.

Now there is a difference between Big Brother telling you and your employer. Your employer is one thing, Big Brother is a big NO! Now with your employer, if you belong to a Union, it would need to be negotiated. If you are under contract, the employer would need to adhere to the terms of the contract and when it comes time for renewal address it then unless you are willing to concede the point. Now if you are in a state like Kentucky and are not in one of those situations, you would need to decide to either keep your current employment by getting the shots or look elsewhere. They haven't made the COVID-19 vaccine mandatory yet but the flu shot already is at my place of employment. There are exceptions to the flu shot however.

Again, in case you missed the earlier point, I am pro-immunization and vaccinated. I can accept people's decisions even if I don't approve of them. To me some reasons have more justifications than others but it is not my right know why.

 

[macadocious]

If you have a kid, you have to vaccinate them to go to school. They literally have to get 9 vaccines.

It’s hilarious that we are fighting against one that we are currently seeing people die from.

https://cchealth.org/immunization/school-requirements.php

 

[whozit]

If you have a kid, you have to vaccinate them to go to school. They literally have to get 9 vaccines.

It’s hilarious that we are fighting against one that we are currently seeing people die from.

https://cchealth.org/immunization/school-requirements.php

There are exceptions to those requirements. Those are also vaccines that have long track records AND went through a full testing regimen. These have not yet.

On the other side of the coin is the number of "severe" reactions and deaths that have been linked to the vaccines in comparison to the hundreds of millions that have been given worldwide, they appear to extremely safe. Compared to the flu shot, they are safer.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I am vaccinated but I respect the rights of those not wanting to for whatever reason...

I, too, respect the rights of people to choose not to get vaccinated. I do not respect the self-proclaimed right of those people to choose to not get vaccinated, and then also face no negative consequences of that choice.

Now there is a difference between Big Brother telling you and your employer. Your employer is one thing, Big Brother is a big NO!

But Big Brother isn't telling you to get vaccinated. Big Brother is asking you to get vaccinated. So, what are you trying to do with this? Are you pulling a "me," and just introducing an hypothetical, for the sake of it?

 

[miltonap]

There are exceptions to those requirements. Those are also vaccines that have long track records AND went through a full testing regimen. These have not yet.

On the other side of the coin is the number of "severe" reactions and deaths that have been linked to the vaccines in comparison to the hundreds of millions that have been given worldwide, they appear to extremely safe. Compared to the flu shot, they are safer.

Disagree with your last paragraph. Adverse events to these vaccines are astronomical compared to the flu vaccine. At least of what's been reported

 

[whozit]

I, too, respect the rights of people to choose not to get vaccinated. I do not respect the self-proclaimed right of those people to choose to not get vaccinated, and then also face no negative consequences of that choice.

.....

No negative consequences? Currently the severe cases and deaths are often among the unvaccinated. That seems pretty negative.

.....

But Big Brother isn't telling you to get vaccinated. Big Brother is asking you to get vaccinated. So, what are you trying to do with this? Are you pulling a "me," and just introducing an hypothetical, for the sake of it?

No. Earlier in the thread it was brought up that it should be mandatory. Not by you but it was brought up earlier.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

No negative consequences? Currently the severe cases and deaths are often among the unvaccinated. That seems pretty negative.

Except that I don't necessarily think that death should be a consequence of defying the will of your employer. But, having your employment terminated? That should absolutely be on the table.

 

[whozit]

Disagree with your last paragraph. Adverse events to these vaccines are astronomical compared to the flu vaccine. At least of what's been reported

The other immunizations aren't being given by the millions daily. Bad news sale. Adverse effects linked to the vaccine really sale and gets clicks. Adverse effects to the flu vaccine is old news and the occasional reaction, even if fatal, doesn't gather attention. The flu shot is taken for granted now, good and bad.

 

[whozit]

Except that I don't necessarily think that death should be a consequence of defying the will of your employer. But, having your employment terminated? That should absolutely be on the table.

I wasn't arguing that. Providing there isn't an existing contract/union that doesn't allow that. With an union that would have to be negotiated. With a contract it would need to be agreed upon or if not inserted into the new contract when renewing. My employer would be able to require it if they so choose. The flu shot is already required. Other vaccines are offered free of charge. With this they haven't gone that route yet.

 

[miltonap]

The other immunizations aren't being given by the millions daily. Bad news sale. Adverse effects linked to the vaccine really sale and gets clicks. Adverse effects to the flu vaccine is old news and the occasional reaction, even if fatal, doesn't gather attention. The flu shot is taken for granted now, good and bad.

From what I understand, pre-covid, approximately 150-200 million people get their flu shots every year and according to VAERS data, that results in approximately 20-30 deaths per year.

Compared to the Covid-19 vaccines, it's not even close. VAERS data for these ones is approaching 11k deaths. Also this isn't click-bait. I also listen to doctors, neurologists, and scientists that have treated covid-19 vaccine injured in their clinics. It's a very real thing

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I wasn't arguing that. Providing there isn't an existing contract/union that doesn't allow that. With an union that would have to be negotiated.,

The sole reason why the mod staff has allowed this discussion to go on, on this message board, is because of its relevance to sports. And, as it pertains to sports, it has been negotiated by the union, at least, in the one sport where it reasonably could have been, yet. So, what is the goal of this particular tangent?

 

[macadocious]

From what I understand, pre-covid, approximately 150-200 million people get their flu shots every year and according to VAERS data, that results in approximately 20-30 deaths per year.

Compared to the Covid-19 vaccines, it's not even close. VAERS data for these ones is approaching 11k deaths. Also this isn't click-bait. I also listen to doctors, neurologists, and scientists that have treated covid-19 vaccine injured in their clinics. It's a very real thing

check your facts dude

Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 339 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through July 19, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 6,207 reports of death (0.0018%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem.

 

[Warhawk]

i think the main issue as far as COVID is concerned is that most of the same people staunchly against getting vaxxed are the same people who are also against wearing masks and/or having proof of vaccination

They are also the ones buying fake vaccine cards to pretend they are vaccinated when they are not. It's not just that they won't get vaccinated, it's that they also then buy fake documents so they can have all the "benefits" of vaccination while not actually protecting themselves and others.

 

[whozit]

The sole reason why the mod staff has allowed this discussion to go on, on this message board, is because of its relevance to sports. And, as it pertains to sports, it has been negotiated by the union, at least, in the one sport where it reasonably could have been, yet. So, what is the goal of this particular tangent?

The NBA Player Association? If it has, then as I stated in one the first posts that I made on this subject, it would be a mute point. The discussion started with a copy of a tweet on what the requirements would be for summer league. If they haven't, the point stands. I am not certain if they have or haven't.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

The NBA Player Association? If it has, then as I stated in one the first posts that I made on this subject, it would be a mute point. The discussion started with a copy of a tweet on what the requirements would be for summer league. If they haven't, the point stands. I am not certain if they have or haven't.

Re-reading the tweet that kicked this whole discussion off doesn't indicate to me anything that hadn't already been agreed upon, between the Board of Governors and the Union. Is it that Shams Charania reported it, like it was news, the thing that's throwing everybody off?

 

[Warhawk]

VAERS data for these ones is approaching 11k deaths. Also this isn't click-bait. I also listen to doctors, neurologists, and scientists that have treated covid-19 vaccine injured in their clinics. It's a very real thing

Aside from the fact that I think that value is incorrect (per macadocious), how does the possible MAXIMUM of 6,000± deaths (likely significantly less) compare to the 610,000+ deaths in the USA from COVID and the millions of hospitalizations and unknown number of long COVID patients (some estimates are 25% of COVID cases will suffer from long COVID) that will have ongoing health issues after contracting it?

Methinks you are not seeing the forest for the trees.

1 out of every 540 people in the USA has died in the last year and a half from COVID. Read that number again. The life expectancy in the USA dropped by 1.5 years last year due largely to COVID. And that is with rapid generation/production of vaccines, expedited FDA approval, the USA being at the forefront of buying vaccinations and distributing them (especially the last 6 months), 50% of the population being fully vaccinated at this time, and enough vaccine shots being available for everyone in the country for free.

With the Delta variant being more transmissible and becoming the most dominant strain in the USA, the infection rate is rising again and hospitals in some areas are again being overwhelmed with patients. 99%(±) of those hospitalized and dying are the unvaccinated. We are going to see another surge in hospitalizations and deaths over the coming months, and they are almost entirely preventable.

 

[macadocious]

I would guess the deaths that could actually be attributed to the vaccine directly are under 100 (possibly even single digits). Many many of those 6,000 deaths were from something completely unrelated.

 

[Warhawk]

I would guess the deaths that could actually be attributed to the vaccine directly are under 100 (possibly even single digits). Many many of those 6,000 deaths were from something completely unrelated.

Oh, agreed. Some of those deaths might also be breakthrough cases, where they were vaccinated and still managed to die from COVID. It's very rare, but it happens. According to AP, in the USA, it appears that about 150 COVID deaths in May were in vaccinated people compared to over 18,000 unvaccinated COVID deaths in the same month. That's not the vaccine's fault either. But those count as vaccinated "deaths".

 

[miltonap]

check your facts dude

Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 339 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through July 19, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 6,207 reports of death (0.0018%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem.

What I reported isn't wrong, in fact the issue with VAERS is that it's a self-reporting system which unfortunately is the best we have. Most people don't even know it exists. And many instances of injury are simply not reported. It is an underreported system. How much ? We don't know, we really don't. Some studies have estimated 1-10% events reported but who knows really. But what we can use it for is to identify a signal of safety, good or bad.

I was simply making a comparison to flu vaccine safety that another poster made.

And of course, death isn't the only important outcome.

So we can use this tool to identify trends. And btw, there are healthcare professionals that are being coerced not to speak up about adverse events, with threats of losing their jobs. This is happening.

But anyways, again, this is the unfortunate situation we find ourselves in. If the FDA actually implemented stringent vaccine adverse event monitoring requirements for vaccine manufacturers, which they deliberately chose NOT to do, we wouldn't even need to have this conversation.

So the best we have are these self-reporting systems and well, anecdotes from doctors and patients. But listening to doctors, scientists, and patients, it's very clear there is a glaring negative safety signal with these vaccines.

Here:

https://www.openvaers.com/covid-data

https://www.medscape.com/sites/publ...-are-you-about-vaccine-related-adverse-events

 

[miltonap]

Aside from the fact that I think that value is incorrect (per macadocious), how does the possible MAXIMUM of 6,000± deaths (likely significantly less) compare to the 610,000+ deaths in the USA from COVID and the millions of hospitalizations and unknown number of long COVID patients (some estimates are 25% of COVID cases will suffer from long COVID) that will have ongoing health issues after contracting it?

Methinks you are not seeing the forest for the trees.

1 out of every 540 people in the USA has died in the last year and a half from COVID. Read that number again. The life expectancy in the USA dropped by 1.5 years last year due largely to COVID. And that is with rapid generation/production of vaccines, expedited FDA approval, the USA being at the forefront of buying vaccinations and distributing them (especially the last 6 months), 50% of the population being fully vaccinated at this time, and enough vaccine shots being available for everyone in the country for free.

With the Delta variant being more transmissible and becoming the most dominant strain in the USA, the infection rate is rising again and hospitals in some areas are again being overwhelmed with patients. 99%(±) of those hospitalized and dying are the unvaccinated. We are going to see another surge in hospitalizations and deaths over the coming months, and they are almost entirely preventable.

That's really not the point. I'm just making a point about the safety of these vaccines and using the flu vaccine as a baseline. Also, I don't know where your death numbers are coming from, but death numbers in the US have been known to be hyper-inflated. They were marking everything as a covid death last year.

But again, that's not my point. I actually don't recommend not getting vaccinated and doing nothing instead, especially for the elderly or people with co-morbidities.

But in the end, people need to be responsible for themselves and make the best choices for themselves. If these were sterilising vaccines (100% prevention of infection/transmission) maybe the story would be a little different but they're not. Both groups can pass it on

 

[Pacboy]

Aside from the fact that I think that value is incorrect (per macadocious), how does the possible MAXIMUM of 6,000± deaths (likely significantly less) compare to the 610,000+ deaths in the USA from COVID and the millions of hospitalizations and unknown number of long COVID patients (some estimates are 25% of COVID cases will suffer from long COVID) that will have ongoing health issues after contracting it?

Methinks you are not seeing the forest for the trees.

1 out of every 540 people in the USA has died in the last year and a half from COVID. Read that number again. The life expectancy in the USA dropped by 1.5 years last year due largely to COVID. And that is with rapid generation/production of vaccines, expedited FDA approval, the USA being at the forefront of buying vaccinations and distributing them (especially the last 6 months), 50% of the population being fully vaccinated at this time, and enough vaccine shots being available for everyone in the country for free.

With the Delta variant being more transmissible and becoming the most dominant strain in the USA, the infection rate is rising again and hospitals in some areas are again being overwhelmed with patients. 99%(±) of those hospitalized and dying are the unvaccinated. We are going to see another surge in hospitalizations and deaths over the coming months, and they are almost entirely preventable.

Surge is already here. Hospitalization already increasing for the last week at each of the three regional hospital in Sacramento area.

 

[kingsboi]

Indistinguishable from purposely infecting people? That's absolutely absurd that you jumped to that conclusion.

Advocating demonizing people for possibly having a virus is absolutely crazy. A vaccinated person could also have the virus and they would have higher odds of being asymptomatic and would also be indistinguishable from purposefully infecting people as you put it.



You aren't catching me in a gotcha. I get to choose what I put into my own body. The general public does not. If I deem it necessary to drink alcohol to have a good time at a party, I'm making my own personal decision to do something that is destructive to my body because that's what I want to do that night.

If we want to get into semantics, we can also start talking about regulating the overall health and nutrition of every person in the world in order to protect themselves from themselves but that would be a bit radical, wouldn't it?

speaking of, what percentage of the American population is obese?

 

[Warhawk]

That's really not the point. I'm just making a point about the safety of these vaccines and using the flu vaccine as a baseline. Also, I don't know where your death numbers are coming from, but death numbers in the US have been known to be hyper-inflated. They were marking everything as a covid death last year.

But again, that's not my point. I actually don't recommend not getting vaccinated and doing nothing instead, especially for the elderly or people with co-morbidities.

But in the end, people need to be responsible for themselves and make the best choices for themselves. If these were sterilising vaccines (100% prevention of infection/transmission) maybe the story would be a little different but they're not. Both groups can pass it on

No, that is the point. Every vaccine has a very minor risk. But the risks are magnitudes less than not using them. Who cares if one vaccine has a slightly different safety record than another? That's like saying wearing seatbelts in a Chevy isn't advisable because Ford seatbelts and Chevy seatbelts have slightly different safety records in accidents.

The numbers aren't "hyper-inflated". In fact, they are likely under-reported (according to Lancet, Scientific American, and other publications). Maybe by the tune of another 150,000 or so deaths, many early on when COVID was still relatively new and the range of symptoms were not fully known and numerous deaths by "heart attack" or other causes weren't fully evaluated at the time. But I stuck with the "accepted" value just to make the point.

A sterilizing vaccine is rare and is very difficult to achieve. Your insistence on a sterilizing solution for COVID isn't feasible at the moment, but it looks like at least one (AdCOVID) is on the horizon. It's a red herring argument, though. Vaccines work to provide herd immunity whether sterilizing or not.

 

[Warhawk]

What I reported isn't wrong, in fact the issue with VAERS is that it's a self-reporting system which unfortunately is the best we have.

That's also the biggest problem with it. Anyone can post anything to it without verification or medical review. Heck, if I wanted to, I could go on there and say it killed my wife even though she is perfectly fine sitting with our dogs on the couch about 15 feet away from me. Any self-reporting system is inherently unreliable, especially with the hyper-partisanship of vaccinations recently.

There is no way to verify that the reports are accurate (or even real events) and there is no way to tie any of it to the vaccines. It's essentially useless data when used in this way.

Viral Posts Misuse VAERS Data to Make False Claims About COVID-19 Vaccines - FactCheck.org

Except, as the VAERS website warns, any report submitted to the database “is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event.”

As we’ve explained before, anyone can submit a report of an event to VAERS, even if it’s not clear that a vaccine caused the problem. All reports are accepted into the database without determining whether the event was caused by a particular vaccine, and therefore, as a disclaimer warns, submissions “may include incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental and unverified information.”

“One of the main limitations of VAERS data is that it cannot determine if the vaccine caused the reported adverse event,” reads its website. “This limitation has caused confusion in the publicly available data from VAERS WONDER, specifically regarding the number of reported deaths. There have been instances where people have misinterpreted reports of deaths following vaccination as deaths caused by the vaccines; that is not accurate.”

 

[whozit]

Re-reading the tweet that kicked this whole discussion off doesn't indicate to me anything that hadn't already been agreed upon, between the Board of Governors and the Union. Is it that Shams Charania reported it, like it was news, the thing that's throwing everybody off?

It is possible. The tweet didn't indicate clearly either way. If agreed upon, then I don't have opposition to the restrictions. Might not approve them but can accept they have made that choice.

 

[Warhawk]

I don't know what part of these aren't sterilising vaccines you guys don't understand.

Vaccines work to slow the spread, prevent many from getting infected, and limit the hospitalizations and deaths, sterilizing or no. Most vaccines we use aren't sterilizing, but we use them anyway because they work if enough people get vaccinated. I don't know what part of that you don't understand.

Vaccines Need Not Completely Stop COVID Transmission to Curb the Pandemic - Scientific American

In a paper in the October 2020 issue of the American Journal of Preventive Medicine, researchers modeled what a COVID-19 vaccine with varying types of protection could mean. They found that if a vaccine protects 80 percent of those immunized and 75 percent of the population is vaccinated, it could largely end an epidemic without other measures such as social distancing. “Otherwise, you won’t be able to rely on the vaccine to return us to ‘normal,’” says Bruce Y. Lee, a co-author of the paper and a professor at the CUNY Graduate School of Public Health and Health Policy. That is, if the vaccine only prevents disease or reduces viral shedding rather than eliminating it, additional public health measures may still be necessary. Even so, Lee stressed that a widespread nonsterilizing vaccine could still reduce burden on the health care system and save lives.

Influenza may provide the best blueprint of what to expect going forward. The most common flu vaccine—the inactivated virus—is not “truly sterilizing because it doesn’t generate local immune response in the respiratory tract,” Crowcroft says. This fact, coupled with low immunization rates (often shy of 50 percent among adults) and the influenza virus’s ability to infect and move between multiple species, enables it to constantly change in ways that make it hard for our immune system to recognize. Still, depending on the year, flu vaccines have been shown to reduce hospitalizations among older adults by an estimated 40 percent and intensive care admissions of all adults by as much as 82 percent.

Research on seasonal coronaviruses suggests that SARS-CoV-2 could similarly evolve to evade our immune systems and vaccination efforts, though probably at a slower pace. And data remain mixed on the relationship between symptoms, viral load and infectiousness. But ample precedent points to vaccines driving successful containment of infectious diseases even when they do not provide perfectly sterilizing immunity. “Measles, diphtheria, pertussis, polio, hepatitis B—these are all epidemic-prone diseases,” Crowcroft says. “They show that we don’t need 100 percent effectiveness at reducing transmission, or 100 percent coverage or 100 percent effectiveness against disease to triumph over infectious diseases.”

 

[Tetsujin]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1419246621162942465