The Lockout has arrived.

CruzDude

Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
Link to the Derek Fisher letter updating negotiations status (owners bickering amongst themselves) as of late Tuesday and going into today's NBPA meetings in Las Vegas.

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/6973675/derek-fisher-emails-players-says-owners-rift

As of 2:45pm none of the national media types are here yet, primarily David Aldridge of ESPN and Sam Amick of SI Sports and Ben Gulliver of CBS Sports. A few of the NBA types who were at the meetings are here and playing as of the last 10 min or so.
 
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Hopefully some positives? Stern and owners unified, and ready to negotiate hard cap? Different tune than on tuesday.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/32015/ready-to-negotiate-that-hard-cap-david-stern

But now let's look at what David Stern said on Thursday after meeting with his owners to get them all on the same page about this hard cap issue. Stern could not have been more clear that he's ready to talk, and that his stance on a hard cap is softening:
"It is the view of the board and the committee that an individual team salary cap, as opposed to a league-wide salary cap, is preferred and the better way to go. But as we told the union, and will continue to tell them, everything is negotiable."
"The vast majority of owners are in favor of a hard cap system. Having said that, they have authorized the committee to be willing to negotiate on all points, and the committee is."
"I get reports that the union is coming out of their meeting today unified. We think that's a good thing. We would like to negotiate with a strong union capable of delivering a deal."
"The clock is ticking, but it hasn't struck midnight yet. We've got time to do what needs to be done, and we'd like to do it, actually."
"There's nothing scheduled right this minute because we're traveling back to New York and I assume the union is traveling back to New York. But we'll both be in New York starting [Friday] and it wouldn't surprise me if there was some conversation that was going on."

No word yet on when the next round of talks will be, but it's a good bet it will be very soon. And with the money issue apparently close, and the league ready to think creatively on the only other "blood" issue, there is the chance things could progress quickly.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
I'm not quite sure what the difference is between a league wide cap as opposed to an individual team cap is? But at least it appears that there's some common ground to work with. They have about two more weeks to get something done before the start of the season is affected. If they schedule a meeting for next week sometime, I'd take that as a sign that both sides are willing to make comprimises and get this thing settled. A key for me is that the owners gave Stern and his negotiating committe the power to make a deal on their behalf. If thats accurate, then I think a deal will get done.
 

CruzDude

Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
My take on the "individual team cap" might be to give the big market teams a harder cap than the small market guys and increase the revenue sharing with the 10 smallest market teams that need it. Endorsements will come to more guys on a team in a big market (NY, CHI, MIA, BOS, DAL, etc) than in the small market teams. Tyreke is good example as likely the only King to get a National endorsement as he did this week with VBlast.

Maybe even sharing the endorsement revenue with the small market teams. Hmmm......
 
My take on the "individual team cap" might be to give the big market teams a harder cap than the small market guys and increase the revenue sharing with the 10 smallest market teams that need it. Endorsements will come to more guys on a team in a big market (NY, CHI, MIA, BOS, DAL, etc) than in the small market teams. Tyreke is good example as likely the only King to get a National endorsement as he did this week with VBlast.

Maybe even sharing the endorsement revenue with the small market teams. Hmmm......
I think the endorsements will come, and do come, when the talent is there. With the current crop, yes Reke is the only one so far. I'd think endorsement deals are right around the corner for Jimmer though, as well as Cousins. Well, maybe a few years for Cousins, but I actually think he's very marketable, because he has the talent, but also off the court he smiles a lot and is great with kids. Pretty articulate as well.

JWill didn't have problems. Jennings signed with under armor and he's stuck in Milw. Durant has a number of deals, in a small market. Lebron, when in Cle, which is a small market. Of course he was one of the best in the world while there, but the endorsements came right after he was drafted. KG/Marbury had a few deals early on in Minn. I think Rubio will get some deals, in that small market.

So I don't really think this day in age, geography has a whole lot to do with endorsements. Maybe it's actually that the best of the best, mostly play in larger markets. I think Rose still gets his Adidas deal if he plays in Mem. Durant has his deals despite being in OKC. Lebron had them in small market Cle, and then in large market Mia. CWebb didn't get less deals here then in Wash, a larger market. Jimmer might just be the most marketable player from last years class, and he was at a small religious school in the middle of Utah.

Ten years ago I would have agreed. But now, I think it's a combination of talent and marketability(appearance/articulate). I think Reke not being comfortable speaking in public or in front of cameras can hurt his endorsements deals more than living and playing in Sac.
 
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I'm not quite sure what the difference is between a league wide cap as opposed to an individual team cap is? But at least it appears that there's some common ground to work with. They have about two more weeks to get something done before the start of the season is affected. If they schedule a meeting for next week sometime, I'd take that as a sign that both sides are willing to make comprimises and get this thing settled. A key for me is that the owners gave Stern and his negotiating committe the power to make a deal on their behalf. If thats accurate, then I think a deal will get done.
Hope you're right. My fingers are crossed.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Well they met today, and so far, no good news. Unless you look at no news as good news. Which I do! There were no reports of games being cancelled, and no one came out of the meeting cursing or throwing barbs at the other side, so I'm going to remain positive. With no one drawing a line in the sand, and reports of more meetings next week, I still think they'll reach a resolution. There might even be some gamesmenship being played by both sides for promoting positive PR. I don't think they want to be one upped by the NFL.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
Well they met today, and so far, no good news. Unless you look at no news as good news. Which I do! There were no reports of games being cancelled, and no one came out of the meeting cursing or throwing barbs at the other side, so I'm going to remain positive. With no one drawing a line in the sand, and reports of more meetings next week, I still think they'll reach a resolution. There might even be some gamesmenship being played by both sides for promoting positive PR. I don't think they want to be one upped by the NFL.
I think it's too late for that and there isn't much they can do about that.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
I think it's too late for that and there isn't much they can do about that.
What I mean't by that, is that the NFL managed to resolve their issues with the players union without affecting the regular season. There's still time for the NBA to do that. As far as to matching the final content of the new CBA, that I seriously doubt.
 
Both sides are a bunch of worthless greedy punks. They have a 5 hour meeting where nothing gets resolved and then they say "oh, maybe we can get together and continue this next week". What the hell is wrong with tomorrow!? No sense of urgency whatsoever. No budging. No one wants to give up anything. I'm already content with there being no season. I hope they all lose money and cry about it. Do the players really believe they are going to get a better deal down the road? Not gonna happen. If they miss a whole season the owners have even MORE leverage.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Both sides are a bunch of worthless greedy punks. They have a 5 hour meeting where nothing gets resolved and then they say "oh, maybe we can get together and continue this next week". What the hell is wrong with tomorrow!? No sense of urgency whatsoever. No budging. No one wants to give up anything. I'm already content with there being no season. I hope they all lose money and cry about it. Do the players really believe they are going to get a better deal down the road? Not gonna happen. If they miss a whole season the owners have even MORE leverage.
Personally, I'm not content with losing a season. I'm not going to take sides in this. I can see points on both sides, but I also see what the greater good is. How long that will take is anyone's guess, but as I've said, my gut tells me it will happen in the next couple of weeks. As to why they don't meet tomorrow instead of waiting till next week? Any proposals that are made, need to be aired to the members on both sides and agreed upon. So I'm assuminig that if the league made an offer, the players union would then run that offer by as many of the player reps as possible to see what their response is.
 
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7022851/nba-lockout-union-owners-meet-tuesday-source-says

The NBA and its players' union will hold a bargaining session on Tuesday and possibly another on Wednesday, as both sides look to end a lockout that is threatening the 2011-12 season, a source told ESPN The Magazine's Ric Bucher.

The players' association has canceled a regional meeting with players Tuesday in Miami so its negotiators can meet with league officials in New York instead, a person told The Associated Press on Monday on condition of anonymity because the details were supposed to remain confidential.


Would these guys please get something done. We don't have much time. Put your damn heads together and knock out a deal!
 
What irritates me a lot's that while rich guys fight over mind-boggling salaries and revenue, any games lost will affect all the people that depend on work at or near the arenas. Neither side of this dispute has as much to lose as those people. Get over yourselves guys and get it done.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
The meeting between the players union and the league just ended and Fisher said they have another meeting scheduled for friday, that will include at least 15 of the owners and a larger of players. Probably the player reps from each team. This is a a good sign and a reason to be optimistic. I don't want to read too much into this, but the only reason to schedule another meeting, and to increase numbers at the table is to discuss proposals that must be within striking range of an agreement.

Anyway, I hope I'm reading the tea leaves right. I'm ready to get the freeagency period started, and the players into training camp.
 

Capt. Factorial

ceterum censeo delendum esse Argentum
Staff member
The meeting between the players union and the league just ended and Fisher said they have another meeting scheduled for friday, that will include at least 15 of the owners and a larger of players. Probably the player reps from each team. This is a a good sign and a reason to be optimistic. I don't want to read too much into this, but the only reason to schedule another meeting, and to increase numbers at the table is to discuss proposals that must be within striking range of an agreement.

Anyway, I hope I'm reading the tea leaves right. I'm ready to get the freeagency period started, and the players into training camp.
Wish it were tomorrow instead of Friday, but still, good news.
 
Wish it were tomorrow instead of Friday, but still, good news.
Jewish Holiday..

So Friday being the earliest that they can schedule a meeting means it's a GREAT sign!!! Especially being that they are bringing in reps and owners. I have a feeling the deal will be done next week, and we will hear something VERY positive on Friday.
 
Amick was just on with Carmichael Dave, and basically said what he's hearing is that an agreement won't happen, and he thinks we'll miss games. Says the two sides are too far apart.

But, Amick has been wrong more often then he's been right lately. We'll see.......
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Amick was just on with Carmichael Dave, and basically said what he's hearing is that an agreement won't happen, and he thinks we'll miss games. Says the two sides are too far apart.

But, Amick has been wrong more often then he's been right lately. We'll see.......
All I can do is hope he's wrong. He's been following the meetings closely, so his opinion is as good as anyone else's. I really don't have a dog in this hunt, but I think the players are in a lose/lose situation. The bottom line is, the owners hold all the cards. As Sterns said a few weeks ago. "The players have every right to negotiate a favorable deal, but in the end, they'll get paid whatever the owners are willing to pay". So far, the league hasn't played hardball, other than to stick to its guns for the most part. The owners have moved off the hard cap to some extent, which leaves some wiggle room for a deal where both sides can say they got something they want.

If this reaches a point where regular season games start to be cancelled, then I think the league will start wielding a wrecking ball. It really wouldn't surprise me to see them cancell the entire season out of the box. I would hope not, but its possible. In the end, the owners will get what they want and all the players will have accomplished is to lose money and time on the court that they will never, never, never, get back. This isn't like a plumbers strike where you can work till your 65 years old. We're talking athlete's here that have a limited time to perform at a high level. Does Ray Allen want to lose an entire year from his career at his age.

At a time where the national unemployment rate is 9.1 percent, and probably even higher, the players need to take a serious look at where they stand. They'll get little or no sympathy from the folks that they want to buy the tickets. In an economy where everyone has had to cut back, is this really a good idea for ticket sales. I get it! I don't blame the players for not wanting to give up something they already have. But thats the idealistic approach. The reality is, they're going to lose this battle. Its just a matter of when. Wouldn't it be better to cut your losses and get a deal done now, than to wait till january, and lose almost half the money they should have been paid this season. Money they'll never get back! I think its time for each player to do a reality check.

Mind you, I'm saying either side is right or wrong. I'm just saying I think I know the outcome. So why not arrive at the outcome now. Its not going to change later.
 
I wonder which owners have supposedly taken the hard cap off the table? All along Hunter and Fisher have been saying that a small core of owners have been "the problem" in digging in their heals on demanding a hard carp. It seems the union strategy has been to divide the owners against each other - but I doubt that can work. Unless the owners agree to contraction they have to have some kind of hard cap, medium hard cap, quasi-hard cap, or whatever you want to call it for the small market teams to survive. And since only 4 or 5 NBA franchises actually turned a profit last season - all the owners are basically in the same leaking boat.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I wonder which owners have supposedly taken the hard cap off the table? All along Hunter and Fisher have been saying that a small core of owners have been "the problem" in digging in their heals on demanding a hard carp. It seems the union strategy has been to divide the owners against each other - but I doubt that can work. Unless the owners agree to contraction they have to have some kind of hard cap, medium hard cap, quasi-hard cap, or whatever you want to call it for the small market teams to survive. And since only 4 or 5 NBA franchises actually turned a profit last season - all the owners are basically in the same leaking boat.
the real difficulty is that in exchange for more revenue sharing the big market owners have been looking for the cost assurance of a hardcap. Tehy are willing ot share more off the top if they know their own expenses won't increas e willy nilly beneath them. But the untion wants there to be both revenue sharing, no hard cap, oh and to keep the player friendly split of the revenues. And that just ain't happening.

Whiel its good news they are meeting on Friday to try to save thing,s nobody else has noted that Stern came out of today's meeting and said that Friday was basically the last chance to save the season or some such. Let's just hope he means the beginning of the regular season, because I know if things fall through if I was on the owner's side I would actually be advocating for us just to entirely shut things down and go tend to out other businesses and let the players stew without contracts for a few months. That's not me as a basketball fan, that's just me as a strategist.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
the real difficulty is that in exchange for more revenue sharing the big market owners have been looking for the cost assurance of a hardcap. Tehy are willing ot share more off the top if they know their own expenses won't increas e willy nilly beneath them. But the untion wants there to be both revenue sharing, no hard cap, oh and to keep the player friendly split of the revenues. And that just ain't happening.

Whiel its good news they are meeting on Friday to try to save thing,s nobody else has noted that Stern came out of today's meeting and said that Friday was basically the last chance to save the season or some such. Let's just hope he means the beginning of the regular season, because I know if things fall through if I was on the owner's side I would actually be advocating for us just to entirely shut things down and go tend to out other businesses and let the players stew without contracts for a few months. That's not me as a basketball fan, that's just me as a strategist.
I agree! The meeting on friday could be the turning point either way. I believe they have until oct 14th to reach an agreement before the start of the season is cancelled. But I think the league is looking for some significant movement on the part of the union. If something doesn't happen on friday, then I think the season is in jeapordy.

The players seem to think that revenue sharing beteen the owners will solve the problem. But the last time I checked, if your losing 300 million dollars collectively as a league, then revenue sharing just moves the losses around or spreads them out better. At the end of the day, the league is still going to lose 300 million. The only real way to make up the loss is to close the gap in the split of the BRI.
 
I wonder if both the owners and players understand there's more at stake here - dollars and sense that aren't part of negotiations. The owners may think they're the one's who pay the players' salaries, but the reality it's us the fans/consumers who do. It's never prudent to alienate the fans with long labor disputes. A great many baseball fans walked away from baseball after the 1994 strike (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1856626). I'd hate to see the same happen to the NBA. More importantly, I'd feel for all those attached to the arena services whose livelihoods depend on the games going on as scheduled.

I don't care who comes out on top of this - I only care that they do the right thing by the people who have the least say in all this., and do it quickly.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
I do feel sorry for those whose jobs are attached to the NBA, and also for the resturants and other venders whose sales depend on an NBA season. Last night I listened to Stephen A Smith, who, like Sam Amick, has been following these meetings closely. He made some good points, with number one being the difference between right and wrong, and reality. The distiction being, that if one side has all the leveage, right or wrong doesn't play a big part in the discussion. According to Smith, and others, Stern is serious about cancelling the entire season if something isn't resolved this weekend. Apparently there are ten owners that don't even want to negotiate. The want to cancell the entire season in a show of power. It should be noted that the NHL cancelled its entire season, and as a result the owners got every single thing they wanted including a hard cap. The NHL is also worth 1.2 billion dollars more today as a result. And, by the way, five of those ten NBA owners, also own NHL teams. Get the picture?

Its Smith's opinion, that the union and the league have come close to an agreement, but those agreements still have to get the approval of all parties involved. So he believes that Sterns warning of cancelling the entire season is basicly a shot across the bow of the players union, to not come into the meetings and try and screw everything up. Because if you do, your playing with fire. Stern is playing the good guy thats keeping the hardline owners at bay, but he can only do for so long.

As Smith said, this more than just about money. Its about control and who has the power. Right now a large group of owners think the inmates are running the asylum, and they want that control back. The owner of the Cav's, Gilbert, makes a good point when he says loosing Lebron cost his franchise millions of dollars. The owners look at the top players like Lebron, Kobe, Howard, etc. as money, as well as just talent. Think of the difference in ticket sales if Dwight Howard were suddenly a Sacramento King. Yes, the team would be an instant contender, but more than that, he would put millions of dollars into the Maloof's bank account. So if you have one of these top players, you want to keep them. You certainly don't want them running off to Miami and joining a couple of other top stars. Oddly, if the players get together and decide where they want to go, its just fine. But if the owners get together and try and make such decisions, its colusion, and libel in a court of law.

This is a major bone of contention with the owners, and I doubt they'll agree to anything that doesn't address it in some way. Smith also made a good point where major businesses are involved. The players have stated that the owners are complaining about losing money when the franchise is not their major business. The owners are saying that they're having to pull money out of their other businesses to support they're NBA team. Once again, oddly enough, the players are fine with the owner pulling money out of another business to insure enough money to sign and then pay the player, but they don't care when the owner has to pull money to keep his team afloat, saying its just a result of bad business decisions on the owners part. Maybe that bad business decision was signing the very player that benefited, and now doesn't care.

This is why the owners want to have shorter contracts with fewer years guaranteed. Like four years with the last two non-guaranteed. Curiously, the owners noticed that some players seem to play harder and acheive more in the last year of their contracts. Thus they would love to have the final two years as the last year of their contract. They want to avoid signing a Stephen Marbury to a six year deal and then have him tank it after one year.

I think that if cooler heads prevail, an agreement will be reached. But I also think that the owners aren't going to fool around with half a season this time. If the players balk at coming to a decision now, and opt for later, there won't be a later until after the next draft on june 30th 2012.
 
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If you think about the moving parts, it’s a three sided negotiation for the small market teams. They are negotiating against both the players and the big markets.

I think owners like Sarver, Gilbert – and yes, the Maloofs view this as a once in a lifetime negotiation where the economy gives them a lot of to change the system to provide them with a lot more control and protection from themselves. The owners have been smart in the last two CBAs. First, they capped the max salary and rookie salaries to prevent contracts like KGs and Glenn Robinson’s.rookie deal. Next, they got a league hard cap – a 57% max. Now, they banged the drum for a team hard cap, but they’ll lower the league cap and firm up spending with only one bird exception per team and a smaller and shorter MLE. The lone bird would be a huge drag on both salaries and movement. So the small market teams are very committed to getting these things.

However, the small market teams are also simultaneously negotiating with the other owners regarding the framework of the deal and revenue sharing. Both sides are throwing around a lot of concepts, so the owners are constantly voting on the basic framework for the league. That side of the deal isn’t done and it keeps moving around. If I’m the Lakers, Knicks, or Boston, I want a firmer cap, but I’ll be fine if we take the BRI from 57% to 50%. Mission accomplished. And as a big market team, I’m not certain that I want to rush to parity or embrace a franchise tag that will prevent the best players from jumping to my team.

Dan Gilbert probably is committed to breaking the players. But he’s also negotiating hard with Jerry Reinsdorf. The Cavs are still going to be working with a short deck if the league just rolls back salaries, knocks a year off the length of contracts, and downsizes the MLE. But if Gilbert had to choose between his dream system and lesser system with decent revenue sharing, well that’s probably another story.

Thus, some of these owners are playing chicken with the season to scare both the players and the owners with the most to lose. I’m guessing some of the hardliners are just bluffing. Thus, I think Stern was throwing at both the players and some of the owners with his statements.