The Lockout has arrived.

PurpleHaze

PurpleHaze

All-Star
#301
#301
Baja I agree. But I think if this season gets canceled NBA could see rapid decertification and a mutiny by its players of epic preportions. Several current star players have already started making noise about forming a rival professional league. I heard that some big investors are in-waiting including overseas and stateside that would like a new worldwide professional basketball league of 2-3 Euro teams, 1- 2 Latin American teams, possibly a franchise in China, along with the stateside teams. The accumulated TV revenue (always main income in big-time sports) could be astronomical if that scenario unfolded.
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#303
#303
PurpleHaze said:
Baja I agree. But I think if this season gets canceled NBA could see rapid decertification and a mutiny by its players of epic preportions. Several current star players have already started making noise about forming a rival professional league. I heard that some big investors are in-waiting including overseas and stateside that would like a new worldwide professional basketball league of 2-3 Euro teams, 1- 2 Latin American teams, possibly a franchise in China, along with the stateside teams. The accumulated TV revenue (always main income in big-time sports) could be astronomical if that scenario unfolded.
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That all sounds well and good, but doing it is another thing altogether. I can't see reasonable people throwing away a 4 billion dollar enterprize in hopes of duplicating it. Especially involving europe and south america. With Italy, France, Greece, and other countrys on the verge of bankruptsy, just where is all the money going to come from. How will american players like having objects thrown at them. Would the american players that sit at the end of the bench and make just under a million a year, make that much in europe when all that talent gets diluted? What if the players union decertifies, but the court rules that the individual contracts are still valid? How would that affect them signing another contract with a new team? What would the FIBA have to say about the whole situation?

Would the players really throw away everything they've worked for and dreamed about on the chance, a very small chance in my opinion, of creating something as good or better? And how long would it take before the revenues start rolling in? How old will Kevin Garnett be by then? How about Kobe, he's not getting any younger. Where are the major arena's that they would play in, in the US? I can't believe that the owners would take this threat seriously.
 
Kingster

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#304
#304
bajaden said:
That all sounds well and good, but doing it is another thing altogether. I can't see reasonable people throwing away a 4 billion dollar enterprize in hopes of duplicating it. Especially involving europe and south america. With Italy, France, Greece, and other countrys on the verge of bankruptsy, just where is all the money going to come from. How will american players like having objects thrown at them. Would the american players that sit at the end of the bench and make just under a million a year, make that much in europe when all that talent gets diluted? What if the players union decertifies, but the court rules that the individual contracts are still valid? How would that affect them signing another contract with a new team? What would the FIBA have to say about the whole situation?

Would the players really throw away everything they've worked for and dreamed about on the chance, a very small chance in my opinion, of creating something as good or better? And how long would it take before the revenues start rolling in? How old will Kevin Garnett be by then? How about Kobe, he's not getting any younger. Where are the major arena's that they would play in, in the US? I can't believe that the owners would take this threat seriously.
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Totally agree. It's smoke. Any other league is going to have the same financial issues, except much worse because the infrastructure won't be there. The players have no place to go on this one. I think by January the financial pain is going to be too much for the NBA players to endure; that's when the agreement happens.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#306
#306
PurpleHaze said:
Baja I agree. But I think if this season gets canceled NBA could see rapid decertification and a mutiny by its players of epic preportions. Several current star players have already started making noise about forming a rival professional league. I heard that some big investors are in-waiting including overseas and stateside that would like a new worldwide professional basketball league of 2-3 Euro teams, 1- 2 Latin American teams, possibly a franchise in China, along with the stateside teams. The accumulated TV revenue (always main income in big-time sports) could be astronomical if that scenario unfolded.
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That's all just huffing. Its not remotely practical in this day and age. When that last happened you could buy a team for a million dollars and pay the players 50k a piece. There were no TV contracts of note, and you could play in a JC arena. The infrastructure costs alone today are astronomical.
 
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bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#307
#307
The meeting between the league and the union just ended. A couple of the players that came out of the meeting early said there was another meeting scheduled for tomorrow, and that everyone came to the meeting with the intent of getting a deal done. Another texted that there was a spirit of cooperation on both sides at the meeting. Hunter and Stern will both take turns at the mike soon.. So far, its looking good. They even stated that Gilbert, one of hardliners appears willing to compromise.
 
PurpleHaze

PurpleHaze

All-Star
#308
#308
Heard some of the comments. Hunter seemed somewhat upbeat that things were moving forward, however incrementally. Fisher was a bit more matter of fact I thought in saying that there were no new proposals. The fact that they're willing to meet right away at 10am tomorrow I guess means there's a realization by both sides this is now in overtime and time is fast running out. Fingers crossed but lets face it - it could still blow up.
 
Hoovtrain

Hoovtrain

All-Star
#309
#309
PurpleHaze said:
Heard some of the comments. Hunter seemed somewhat upbeat that things were moving forward, however incrementally. Fisher was a bit more matter of fact I thought in saying that there were no new proposals. The fact that they're willing to meet right away at 10am tomorrow I guess means there's a realization by both sides this is now in overtime and time is fast running out. Fingers crossed but lets face it - it could still blow up.
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Yeah, I think someone asked Fish something along the lines of "is a new deal on the horizon" and he responded "I can't answer that". I wouldn't expect him to say anything differently, but it's a far cry from what they have all been saying after leaving previous meetings. I am cautiously optimistic right now, but this seems to be positive especially with another meeting scheduled tomorrow at 10AM.
 
rainmaker

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#311
#311
Interesting.....

Today's meeting between NBA players and owners got incredibly heated, most notably when Miami Heat superstar Dwyane Wade yelled while making pointed remarks to league commissioner David Stern.

The meeting was so intense that Wade and the other superstar players present nearly stormed out of the hotel.

They remained only because Union chief Billy Hunter calmed the players down and asked them to remain.

And, from Ric Bucher

Element not to forget: 2012 Olympics. It means NBA doesn't have time on back end of season the way it normally would on a late start.

which I think is a point many don't bring up. Canceling the entire season, as Stern threatened two days ago is extremely risky, given the very short time period between the NBA Draft and the Olympics. Cancelling the season, GREATLY increases the chances NBA players don't play in the Olympics, for any country. Don't see that happening. You can't cancel the entire season, and then put a new CBA in place in a couple weeks right before the Olympics.
 
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rainmaker

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#312
#312
Meetings ended today without any positive news. No meetings scheduled for tomorrow. Looks like we'll start missing games.

Edit: But, I just saw a tweet from Marc Stein saying both sides are meeting monday. C'mon guys!
 
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=LarryLegend=

=LarryLegend=

Starter
#313
#313
This is starting to get retarded. The NBA is going to hurt the momentum from last year and start to lose the fanbase. Quit being greedy and play basketball. If you can afford to own a team sell.
 
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Entity

Entity

Hall of Famer
#314
#314
I think had lebron, wade, carmello, and the other superstars had kept their *** home like they had been. this would have gotten settled today. why in the hell are THESE guys with $100 million endorcments and $16-$20 mil a year contracts bitching about money??? why are they there.
 
M

mac

All-Star
#315
#315
Entity said:
I think had lebron, wade, carmello, and the other superstars had kept their *** home like they had been. this would have gotten settled today. why in the hell are THESE guys with $100 million endorcments and $16-$20 mil a year contracts bitching about money??? why are they there.
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Yes, I can't stand the attitude that the players are taking. A lot of these guys come from poor backgrounds and should consider themselves blessed to be where they are, earning millions of dollars and looked up to by thousands of kids and adults around the world simply by playing a friggin game. Lots of people don't even earn the amount the players earn in a year in their entire lifetime, and they wanna ***** about a couple of million dollars. Give me a break. If they want to make billions of dollars go and start a business or a casino or whatever it is. I find it extremely lame that all they do is earn millions of dollars playing basketball and then complain that businessmen are being greedy.

If I'm not wrong, our top players even earn (salary-wise) quite a bit more than top soccer players - and soccer has a much much larger following around the world.
 
Entity

Entity

Hall of Famer
#316
#316
if they sat back and thought about it. Without David Stern and the NBA how relevant would they be? The make 16 mil a year because of the NBA and they are mad because they aren't making 18 mil a year. you want to disrespect the game and the company that made you relevant without tha NBA they would be working at a car wash.
 
T

Tyndel

Bench
#319
#319
Lets be honest the owners have all the power. They lost money last year so for them to lose a season means they are saving money as a group..... The players on the other hand lose money singly and as a group for every game missed and it will only get worse. Other then that how many people can ball out there. Maybe there isn't another Jordan or 'Bron or howard but how many guys are good enough to be right below them to play with better then the NBA average and come out on top but never got a chance. How many didn't get to go to school or missed their chance because something happened, injury, working so they and their family can eat, and so on. There are alot of people out there who could step into most players shoes and make a league out of it.

I honestly think the players are going to have to give up alot to not lose games or they are going to lose games and give up alot later. Should they negotiate as best they can for themselves and their families? Of course but ultimately they are going to have to decide on losing 3 or 7% per year from now on or 100% of this year and a smaller % later.
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#320
#320
LPKingsFan said:
I can turn that easily on its head: Without the players, how relevant would David Stern be?
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Well the dirty little secret is, that when Stern became commisioner, he totally changed the way the league did PR. Up till then it was a league with emphasis on the teams. Stern decided to turn it into a league of stars. Not that there wern't stars before, its just that the league didn't promote them like they do now. So in essence, Stern helped make Lebron and Kobe etc., into the stars they are. He turned them into household names, not just in the US, but all over the world. Stern helped promote basketball all over the world, and it took hold.

You can love or hate Stern, but he's done a terrific job of building the NBA into what it is. And, because of what it is, players like Wade and Lebron make a lot of money. I'm not saying they don't deserve what they can get. I'am saying, don't kill the goose that lays the golden egg.
 
LPKingsFan

LPKingsFan

All-Star
#321
#321
bajaden said:
Well the dirty little secret is, that when Stern became commisioner, he totally changed the way the league did PR. Up till then it was a league with emphasis on the teams. Stern decided to turn it into a league of stars. Not that there wern't stars before, its just that the league didn't promote them like they do now. So in essence, Stern helped make Lebron and Kobe etc., into the stars they are. He turned them into household names, not just in the US, but all over the world. Stern helped promote basketball all over the world, and it took hold.

You can love or hate Stern, but he's done a terrific job of building the NBA into what it is. And, because of what it is, players like Wade and Lebron make a lot of money. I'm not saying they don't deserve what they can get. I'am saying, don't kill the goose that lays the golden egg.
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Right, but you're also saying that Stern made the NBA all about superstars and was widly successful, and now it's the superstars fault for wanting to be compensated for their role in driving that success?

Look, I guess it doesn't really matter since the owners are in a much better spot in terms of leverage. But to say this lockout is only the fault (as some posters seem to hint above) of some spoiled players is terribly simplistic and wholly inaccurate.
 
P

pshn80

Starter
#322
#322
It's hard for me to get on either the players' case or the owners' case. Neither has the interest of the other or the fans except as cash cows. Since the new agreement embodies some really tough choices, naturally neither will budge until they are about to go over the falls. Just the nature of the beast. I would like practice and play to start no matter what. In the meantime they play chicken.
 
Capt. Factorial

Capt. Factorial

ceterum censeo delendum esse Argentum
Staff member
#324
#324
Bricklayer said:
From the Agents Are Not Your Friend, example #9327 file, comes this little tidbit:

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/215840/Agents_Issue_Joint_Letter_Of_Warning_To_Clients


Which coming on the heels of a little hope in Stern's remarks today tells me the wonderful agents are perfectly willing to lose the season if it serves their interests. They know full well 57% and the old system untocuhed is a complete non-starter.
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Wow. Just wow. Between urging decertification and now telling the players not to concede one inch (in a negotiation where it's clear the players desperately hope to land in the middle, rather than all the way to the owners' side) it certainly looks like the agents are desperately trying to scuttle the season.

And really, it would seem to be hugely out of their own interest, since once games start being missed, the NBA owners will dig in harder. Where's the profit in that, agents?

Seems to me that with all of the demonization of the players and owners going on here, not enough attention is being paid to the poison being spread by a loud third party that provides no benefit to the fan but doesn't want to lose its cut.
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#325
#325
Capt. Factorial said:
Wow. Just wow. Between urging decertification and now telling the players not to concede one inch (in a negotiation where it's clear the players desperately hope to land in the middle, rather than all the way to the owners' side) it certainly looks like the agents are desperately trying to scuttle the season.

And really, it would seem to be hugely out of their own interest, since once games start being missed, the NBA owners will dig in harder. Where's the profit in that, agents?

Seems to me that with all of the demonization of the players and owners going on here, not enough attention is being paid to the poison being spread by a loud third party that provides no benefit to the fan but doesn't want to lose its cut.
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The difference between 57% and even the 53% that the players want averaged out over 10 years is a huge loss for the agents so they certainly have a lot to lose here as well. But yeah, the timing on this couldn't be worse. They must think the players and owners are closer to a compromise than has been reported and they wanted to try and protect their interests while they still have a chance. Ultimately I don't think it matters though. The players are going to do what's best for them regardless.
 
Dr. Spaceman

Dr. Spaceman

Bench
#327
#327
I'd love for a player to step up and tell the agents to **** off, like Wade did to Stern the other day. They deserve it after pulling such a slimy, obviously self-serving stunt like that. Then again, using the phrase "slimy, obviously self-serving" to describe a sports agent is being just a little redundant, isn't it?
 
rainmaker

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#328
#328
This is from Larry Coon earlier today, and I thought it was very well written. Well, here's part of it at least. I tend to agree with his stance here. Time for the owners to show more of a willingness to get something done.

A compromise would start with the owners bringing their offer for the players' revenue split up to at least 50 percent. Friday's bargaining session almost ended shortly after it began due to the owners' continued inflexibility over this issue with one player reportedly saying "There's no reason to go back in there."

The players' consider a 46 percent split to be drastic overreaching on the part of the owners. From their perspective the split has been at least 53 percent for 28 years, they agreed to 57 percent just six years ago, and revenues have continued to grow since that time -- including through the recent economic downturn. Yet the owners say they are now suffering massive losses and need the players to take 46 percent because the previous system isn't working.

In other words, the owners want to cut the players' share to a level lower than it has ever been, while revenues have been higher than they have ever been. The league hasn't been able to sway the players with this argument for two years. What chance do they have in these last two days before they are forced to lose regular-season games? Any hope of a compromise starts with significant movement from the owners on the revenue split. This is the biggest of the "big three" issues to resolve.

"We're apart on the split," Stern said following Monday's session. "But we know that the answer lies somewhere between where they were and where we are." Apparently, even Stern agrees that the owners' proposal needs to increase.

The second issue is revenue sharing. The small-market owners will never agree to a 50/50 split unless they know they're being covered by the big-market teams such as the New York Knicks and Los Angeles Lakers. This issue is among the owners themselves rather than between the owners and players, but it is crucial to a deal. A robust system of revenue sharing needs to be in place before a compromise can be reached on the split between the owners and players.

The third big issue is the salary cap system, which includes guarantees, exceptions, amnesty provisions, franchise tags, contract lengths, luxury tax, and the like. The two sides discussed system issues in detail over the weekend, trying to build momentum before tacking the revenue split. But that's doing it backward -- the system is a function of the revenue split, not the other way around. The lower the revenue split, the more of the previous system the players will be able to retain. At 50 percent the players may be able to keep most of the previous system. But the players might not be able to keep any of these provisions if they insist on 53 percent.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page...1003/nba-lockout-there-nba-games-played-nov-1
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#329
#329
rainmaker said:
The third big issue is the salary cap system, which includes guarantees, exceptions, amnesty provisions, franchise tags, contract lengths, luxury tax, and the like. The two sides discussed system issues in detail over the weekend, trying to build momentum before tacking the revenue split. But that's doing it backward -- the system is a function of the revenue split, not the other way around. The lower the revenue split, the more of the previous system the players will be able to retain. At 50 percent the players may be able to keep most of the previous system. But the players might not be able to keep any of these provisions if they insist on 53 percent.[/I]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page...1003/nba-lockout-there-nba-games-played-nov-1
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This last paragraph might be the key one for hopes of a deal. If the players are able to negotiate a lower split in exchange for keeping most of the current system, vs. a more player-friendly split which results in a hard cap, then there all of a sudden we have an actual negotiation with a give/take mechanism.
 
Gary

Gary

All-Star
#330
#330
bajaden said:
For those that didn't trip over the PDF in the RealGM article, here's the just the letter to the players by the agents.

http://ht.cdn.turner.com/si/nba/AgentsLetter100311.pdf
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Sounds like a moneygrab.. Owners are owners for a reason, and players should not be making more than the owners.. Most owners aren't even making money, and the players and agents still want to screw them over.

The agents are a bunch of greedy retards.
 
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