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AriesMar27
Guest
who would want nocioni or garcia? maybe the cavs but who on the cavs would we want? big z's expiring contract? or maybe get a third team involved to take z and send us a player worth keeping.
Small Forward Logjam
- Thread starter OptimusRhyme
- Start date
kingsnation
All-Star
See below.
Depth my friend. Would you rather we have no good backups and no prospects?
beb0p
Starter
If Greene is that good then sure we have a logjam, but until then we don't. And I'm sure he'll get his chance to shine it's up to him to earn his mins.
Casspi will get some time at PF and our frontcourt is weak, so I think he'll get some burn as well.
MassachusettsKingsFan
All-Star
See below.
Depth my friend. Would you rather we have no good backups and no prospects?
Depth doesnt mean a whole lot on a 16 win team ..
I think this team would benefit from trading Garcia or Noc ( Noc more likely ).. when your team is bad, starting 'servicable' or 'capable' veterans in front of guys who need NBA minutes isnt a good way to develope players... If Nocioni is traded then what happens? we win 1 or 2 less games this season? who cares! I rather lose a few more games and see what we have with some of our young guys then win a few meaningless ones with Veterans who have no future on our team, and even if Greene and Casspi end up being scrubs at least we find that out sooner than later and build from there...
Note* Im talking about Greene more than Casspi here .. Greene sat on the bench all season last year, the kid deserves a shot and I realy hope he can find at least 20 mpg this season.
I think you are right if the plan is not to give any meaningful playing time for Casspi's development and if you'll just use Garcia once in a blue moon at SF position.
I think Casspi will be very lucky if he gets any playing time at all next year. He will be much like the Donte Greene of last year playing garbage minutes. That sucks the way it sucked seeing Donte Greene went through his development by warming up the bench.
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AriesMar27
Guest
thank you... if we were a 50 win, playoff team it would make sense. but we arent, so.... yeah, this isnt a good problem to have.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
If you trade Cisco, who do you play at the backup 2?
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AriesMar27
Guest
evans.......
HighTopKicks
Bench
I agree with DoDiGaG0, Cisco really isn't good at defending big 3's, and really should be Martin's backup at the 2. However, he makes too much money to play 12mpg as a backup, unless Martin gets hurt again.
Donte supposedly put on 15lbs of muscle lifting. I think he can play some PF. And, Casspi will get minutes at SF.
But, until Casspi or Donte prove that they are starting SF caliber, we need Noc. If one of them beats out Noc for the starting job before the trade deadline expect to see Noc go.
IMO the Kings will sign another guard. Maybe McNeal from the summer league team. He's got Evans type wingspan and great leaping ability. Then Beno gets traded along with Thomas, and we keep Garcia. Garcia's ability to play multiple positions and the question of Martin being injury prone outweighs Garcia's big contract.
Donte supposedly put on 15lbs of muscle lifting. I think he can play some PF. And, Casspi will get minutes at SF.
But, until Casspi or Donte prove that they are starting SF caliber, we need Noc. If one of them beats out Noc for the starting job before the trade deadline expect to see Noc go.
IMO the Kings will sign another guard. Maybe McNeal from the summer league team. He's got Evans type wingspan and great leaping ability. Then Beno gets traded along with Thomas, and we keep Garcia. Garcia's ability to play multiple positions and the question of Martin being injury prone outweighs Garcia's big contract.
kingsnation
All-Star
So, bad teams shouldn't have deep benches? I'm sorry, that just doesn't make sense to me. Even if you don't want depth, having a logjam is a GOOD thing because it creates healthy competition AND it also gives us trade pieces.
What is wrong with any of that?
kingsnation
All-Star
Maybe Casspi? I don't know his history there, or maybe we could get a serviceable reserve in a trade?
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Seems pretty iffy. If Casspi can guard the 2s, and he has an outside shot that is consistent, sure, that would be fantastic. But I'll have to see that to believe it. And when you think about it, isn't Cisco a "sericeable reserve"? So then you're trying to trade one serviceable reserve for another. Why trade the reserve to begin with? I still think the logjam is at the 3 and Noc will eventually be the odd man out.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
What's wrong is it really doesn't work that way -- all logjams do is guarantee that somebody gets screwed, and its inevitably the young guy.
If we had 3 guys at the position, somebody would still be screwed. But 4, with 2 vets? Means 1 of those 4 is basically garabgetime before we start, and a 2nd will be lucky to do better than spot minutes.
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AriesMar27
Guest
its not depth if its only one position.... depth on a team means that they have players at multiple positions that can handle tons of minutes and are productive... having 2 extra bench players is not depth... especially on a 17 win team. what do we gain by having greene and casspi holding gatorade bottles for the 2 borderline scrubs in front of them. maybe one can hold the towels.... a logjam is the last thing that any team would want unless they are competeing and are injury prone. we are just injury prone but not at that position.... even if we were greene and casspi would still be screwed unless both garcia or martin and nocioni got hurt....
kingsnation
All-Star
Well, if we are looking at Garcia being the main reserve at the 2, then we only have 3 SFs. Noc, Greene and Casspi.
IMO, this is STILL a good thing. The positives outweigh the negatives here. I say we give Noc the starting this year, with Greene the primary backup to begin with. Casspi begins with very limited minutes. If Greene shows great improvement at the reserve 3, then we can trade Noc. If Greene doesn't improve, then we can trade him and move Casspi into his spot.
IMO, this is STILL a good thing. The positives outweigh the negatives here. I say we give Noc the starting this year, with Greene the primary backup to begin with. Casspi begins with very limited minutes. If Greene shows great improvement at the reserve 3, then we can trade Noc. If Greene doesn't improve, then we can trade him and move Casspi into his spot.
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AriesMar27
Guest
what positives? im positive that he doesnt help this team win any games... if he had helped us win 2 more games we wouldve ended up with the number 1 pick in the draft. he only averaged 13.8 points a game in the last 20 games of the season. their were 6thmen that scored more than nocioni. he isnt that great of a defender or rebounder... so what does he do to warrant having a 30 year old sf who cant score, defend, rebound or block shots? we won a total of 4 games since he joined the team. if anything he made the team worse....
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Actually for a SF he's not a bad rebounder. His career average is 5.1 rebounds a game, and he averaged 6 rebounds a game in the 23 games he played for us. The real positive in his rebounding is that he's mostly a defensive rebounder, which is something the Kings need. He's not a shotblocker, but there aren't that many SF's that made their career on being shotblockers. But he a pretty good position defender and he's a smart player. No! He's not Gerold Wallace, but he's not a peice of crap either. He has value in the league. Is he a starter on a championship team? No, probably not, but that doesn't mean he's worthless. There is middle ground.
As far you argument that he made the team worse. Thats just pure nonsense. He had nothing to do with it. This team was a bad team before he got here, and to lay any blame on a player that comes in at the end of the season to a strange team with an interim coach, and no direction is ridiculous.
As far as the rotation. How about we wait and see how it plays out before we complain about it. We have people complaining about things that haven't even happened yet. And may not happen. This is why I hate this time of the year. Excuse me, I have to go check on the Lobster..
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AriesMar27
Guest
thats what im saying, where are the positives? what do we gain for having him on the team? lobster huh? sounds way better than the chinese takeout that i had.... but it did have tiny shrimp that didnt taste that good.... lol....
kingsnation
All-Star
FYI, the positives I was referring to was the 3 SFs, not Noc's game.
But while were on the topic, I'm just curious, who do you want as our starting 3?
Telemachus
Starter
You make it sound like the only position these players play is SF. Garcia is more of a SG IMO, and will likely be the primary backup to Martin this season. Noc and Greene are both capable of playing SF and PF (especially if it is true that Greene has added 15 lbs. of muscule this off season). As for Casspi, I haven't seen enough of him to know if SF is the only position he can play. My point being that these 4 players are not all just playing SF, and there should be enough minutes to go around if they play well enough to earn them.
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AriesMar27
Guest
i would like to have greene start at sf but that wont happen with garcia still on the team even if nocioni were gone. since we arent oing to be making any moves to get a real star on the team we might as well take a "L" and let the young players play out this season to see what we really have. i was mad about not getting rubio because i knew that he would be the perfect player to set up hawes, thompson and greene. i hope that beno is gone and that sergio does a good job as the starting pg. a front court of greene, thompson and hawes would be like a jv version of the lakers frontcourt with odom, pau and bynum.
i dont know much about omri, i wanted claver... drafting rubio and claver wouldve been a step closer towards creating an identity on this team. we just have a collection of random players. not many of them compliment each other all that well.
if i had to pick a player to trade nocioni for it would be gerald wallace, his game compliments martins perfectly and is young enough to be part of the rebuild. we have no athletes on this team, i've said it a couple of times. we need a freak athlete out there with all of our finesse guys...
we trade nocioni for wallace and thomas/beno and cash for amare and all of a sudden we have a team that can compete. after seeing what the suns got for shaq we couldve probably gotten amare without losing thompson. chandler wouldve been another good option and let hawes come off the bench until he can prove that he is clearly better than chandler. hell wallace and chandler if they both stay healthy would make us a team that could compete for playoff spot. martin is good enough now to be a player that can make it to the playoffs. he isnt kobe but he can be just as good as brandon roy.
our team with wallace and chandler would be just as good as portland and probably utah. still not as good as the spurs, mavs, nuggets and lakers obviously but with houston done for the year and the suns out of whack a small trade would go a long way. and we would actually become a younger team by trading for wallace and chandler since nocioni and thomas are much older than they are. garcia would then be the oldest player on the team. we would be better than the hawks, heat, sixers and most of the teams in the east. definitely better than the bottom dwellers in the west and essentially leapfrog the thunder, blazers and clippers... well we will have to see the clippers first, griffin might just be that good of a player.
its not that i dislike nocioni but we gain nothing by having him be our starting sf. could you honestly say that we would be better off having him than just wallace alone? though we would probably lose greene if we were to trade for wallace, it would be worth it if we ended up with chandler as well...
sergio/evans
martin/garcia
wallace/garcia/casspi
thompson/brockman/hawes (we really need to sign a back up bigman)
chandler/hawes
our weakest spot would be pg... but we would have enough talent to make up for that until we got to the playoffs or if sergio/evans really come up big and become stud players... that team could beat out the blazers, jazz or even the nuggets for a playoff spot. there are enough match up problems to give a top team a good run for their money as well. the only difference would be experience... and we wont get any unless we make a push for the playoffs... nocioni wont help us do that. if martin, wallace and chandler were healthy all season they would be a good team, no superstars but enough overall talent to make up for it.
hawes and thompson are smart players from what i can tell, i can see them responding really well to the challenge of playing in a 7 game series against a player like gasol, dirk or duncan. they would lose but they would become better players because of it. martin hit one game winner against the spurs in the playoffs and became the future of our franchise. we only won 2 games in that series butwe all witnessed martins growth afterwards. whos to say tha the same thing wouldnt happen for thompson or hawes...
damn this was a long response, my bad...
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