Sergio Rodriguez...
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drboiffard
Bench
I don't blame Ricky...
It deppends on how it ends up this year; it's stay or go. I feared at the begining of the season, but after these last 4 games I think he can breathe and he will start to be someone here, cause earlier or later we'll have to make trades.
I think the problem was not he came earlier to NBA, the problem he ended up under Nate McMillan's hands. He is useless in a very deffensive and one-man based attack team. McMillan is retarded, see how misuses this also awesome guy as a 3-pointer shooter, see how misuses Andre Miller, how Frye is doing again his rookie year' numbers away from him...see the playoff series they did last year, see how they're loosing many matches because he makes always the same ****ing scheme...
I don't blame Rubio himself, but I blame how this star oriented marketing and number fever image can affect fandom and distorsionate a deeper vision on people abilities and it's use on the game, I mean: giving opportunities and confidence.
For example, I'd understand what McMillan does if Roy were LeBron, but he isn't. I understand that people get excited with a Martin or Durant guy scoring 30 points although your team sucks: at least is more that only your team sucking. But the number fever in wich is based the fandom also distorsionates. I think people like Rudy can lead a team in a PO match in a quarter into a win. If Rudy were in the position of KMart last year (if not franchise player of a really low-table team, at least with 30+ mpg) he'd average 20 or more points per game. It's more easy to score when you're loosing by more than 15, defenders relaxes...In NBA players are, at the same time, basketball players and trading cards. What's the amazing thing on a guy scoring 30 ppg in a game that doesn't matter because it's a 82 game season, and hi is throwing every ****ing throw in his team? Let a guy like Rudy or Casspi 40 mmpg, and be the go-to guy during the complete season, and he'll probably also average more than 20 points. But hey, his value as trading card says he can't play more than 15 minutes, so they can't show nothing until they are traded to team that, maybe, uses them.
But it's very complex, because in all of this it also counts a lot that the NBA is a 40 team league with a 82 match season instead of a Cup+20TeamLeague+EuroChampionship schema, where there are like 200% more life-or-death matches. And, of course, the need of some rules to make that balanced economic meta-game work. That is fair, I like it more than letting the league in an open market with 2 teams having 50 times the sallary of others. But it has also bad things.
And well, I also think Rubio has done it worse than Sergio. Man, he only had options to come if were picked above #4. He speculated and did it wrong. I think that last year after the Olympics he started a hype balloon on marketing and press that finally explode. Now he has to wait to come here at least a year or two...
Hell, what a mess.
It deppends on how it ends up this year; it's stay or go. I feared at the begining of the season, but after these last 4 games I think he can breathe and he will start to be someone here, cause earlier or later we'll have to make trades.
I think the problem was not he came earlier to NBA, the problem he ended up under Nate McMillan's hands. He is useless in a very deffensive and one-man based attack team. McMillan is retarded, see how misuses this also awesome guy as a 3-pointer shooter, see how misuses Andre Miller, how Frye is doing again his rookie year' numbers away from him...see the playoff series they did last year, see how they're loosing many matches because he makes always the same ****ing scheme...
I don't blame Rubio himself, but I blame how this star oriented marketing and number fever image can affect fandom and distorsionate a deeper vision on people abilities and it's use on the game, I mean: giving opportunities and confidence.
For example, I'd understand what McMillan does if Roy were LeBron, but he isn't. I understand that people get excited with a Martin or Durant guy scoring 30 points although your team sucks: at least is more that only your team sucking. But the number fever in wich is based the fandom also distorsionates. I think people like Rudy can lead a team in a PO match in a quarter into a win. If Rudy were in the position of KMart last year (if not franchise player of a really low-table team, at least with 30+ mpg) he'd average 20 or more points per game. It's more easy to score when you're loosing by more than 15, defenders relaxes...In NBA players are, at the same time, basketball players and trading cards. What's the amazing thing on a guy scoring 30 ppg in a game that doesn't matter because it's a 82 game season, and hi is throwing every ****ing throw in his team? Let a guy like Rudy or Casspi 40 mmpg, and be the go-to guy during the complete season, and he'll probably also average more than 20 points. But hey, his value as trading card says he can't play more than 15 minutes, so they can't show nothing until they are traded to team that, maybe, uses them.
But it's very complex, because in all of this it also counts a lot that the NBA is a 40 team league with a 82 match season instead of a Cup+20TeamLeague+EuroChampionship schema, where there are like 200% more life-or-death matches. And, of course, the need of some rules to make that balanced economic meta-game work. That is fair, I like it more than letting the league in an open market with 2 teams having 50 times the sallary of others. But it has also bad things.
And well, I also think Rubio has done it worse than Sergio. Man, he only had options to come if were picked above #4. He speculated and did it wrong. I think that last year after the Olympics he started a hype balloon on marketing and press that finally explode. Now he has to wait to come here at least a year or two...
Hell, what a mess.
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Sptsjunkie
Starter
Let's be realistic
Ok, just my opinion here, but I think some of the arguments coming up here on the draft are ridiculous.
1 - When talking about busts, I think it's unfair to start talking about injured or tragically hurt players. Yes, technically, no player is a "sure thing" because they could get murdered the night of the draft or break their leg in 5 places during their first game. I just think calling Pervis Ellison (PER over 20 and MIP award his one close to full season), Jay Williams, Bobby Hurley or any other similarly injured player a "bust" is patently unfair.
2 - You have to understand context and look at more than college stats or awards. Comparing JJ Redick to Hakeem makes zero sense. JJ did not even go in the top 10 because teams understood he was an undersized, pure shooter with below average athleticism. Hakeem was an uber-athletic, highly skilled 7 footer with a huge wing span and great fluidity. Comparing one to the other in any way, really diminishes your argument and reeks of trying to twist facts to support your argument versus taking an objective look at these points.
3 - There is a big difference between a "sure thing" and a "project" or "gamble." Kandi was known as a gamble (raw offensive player out of UOP) with very high upside. Darko was certainly known as a gamble, no matter how much Chad Ford loved him. Heck, some gambles like KG and Kobe work out. But they were known coming into the draft as gambles. Hakeem, Shaq, LBJ, and Duncan were all known as sure things. Obviously anything can happen in the NBA, but you were darn safe drafting any one of them.
Ok, just my opinion here, but I think some of the arguments coming up here on the draft are ridiculous.
1 - When talking about busts, I think it's unfair to start talking about injured or tragically hurt players. Yes, technically, no player is a "sure thing" because they could get murdered the night of the draft or break their leg in 5 places during their first game. I just think calling Pervis Ellison (PER over 20 and MIP award his one close to full season), Jay Williams, Bobby Hurley or any other similarly injured player a "bust" is patently unfair.
2 - You have to understand context and look at more than college stats or awards. Comparing JJ Redick to Hakeem makes zero sense. JJ did not even go in the top 10 because teams understood he was an undersized, pure shooter with below average athleticism. Hakeem was an uber-athletic, highly skilled 7 footer with a huge wing span and great fluidity. Comparing one to the other in any way, really diminishes your argument and reeks of trying to twist facts to support your argument versus taking an objective look at these points.
3 - There is a big difference between a "sure thing" and a "project" or "gamble." Kandi was known as a gamble (raw offensive player out of UOP) with very high upside. Darko was certainly known as a gamble, no matter how much Chad Ford loved him. Heck, some gambles like KG and Kobe work out. But they were known coming into the draft as gambles. Hakeem, Shaq, LBJ, and Duncan were all known as sure things. Obviously anything can happen in the NBA, but you were darn safe drafting any one of them.
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Kingsguy881
Guest
My point with the whole dice thing was with a player like that 11 out of 12 times is going to be legit. So that is pretty much a sure thing is what I'm saying, and then my next point is anyone that doubted him gets shut up real quick due to said player proving failry quickly that they are going to be the real deal. LBJ did it, MJ did it, CP3 did it, Tyreke has done it. That says a lot about what kind of career we can look forward to from this kid.
hammystyle
Starter
Wow...
A) Yeah he had a coke overdose. Bill Walton's feet broke down. Some day a plane will crash. But that has doesn't have ANYTHING to do with what I'm talking about. Len Bias was a tragedy, not a bust.
B) For the record, Len Bias was still not the caliber of prospect those guys were. Auerbach sure liked him, but if he was like those other guys he'd have gone #1 over Daugherty. Daugherty was a very solid #1, but still not that sure thing I was talking about.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
There are certian guys who come out who ARE sure bets. That list has already been posted. There is an excitment about them, an inevitability, that even half of the #1 don't have (you heard the uncertainty and whispers about Kandiman before he was drafted -- they weren't sure. Everybody is sure when Shaq is in the draft). Those guys are the true #1s, HOFs almost before they even touch an NBA floor. The rest have to earn/prove it.
drboiffard
Bench
There are certian guys who come out who ARE sure bets.
...and there are people like Steve Nash, that becomes all-star at his 5th year in the league.
...and there are people like Steve Nash, that becomes all-star at his 5th year in the league.
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AriesMar27
Guest
Back to the topic of Sergio. He didn't get a fair shot in Portland and up until Martin went down it looked like more of the same. I hope he gets minutes once Martin returns, I doubt that it will happen but hey...
Which sucks because he is easily our best pg, though beno has played well this season.
Which sucks because he is easily our best pg, though beno has played well this season.
drboiffard
Bench
Well, at least here isn't looking to McMillan's face every time he does something. Even if he doesn't get regular minutes, he plays with confidence and doing what he knows. The season is long and I think he will end up with a contract at the end of the year.
Kings should get of old people and let Westphall do. Trade Martin for a good young center. Let Sergio and Beno compete as beasts for PG minutes. Move Reke to SG, he's 1'98m for god sake! Give minutes to Donte and Casspi...
There are too much talent here, but the roster is very unbalanced.
Kings should get of old people and let Westphall do. Trade Martin for a good young center. Let Sergio and Beno compete as beasts for PG minutes. Move Reke to SG, he's 1'98m for god sake! Give minutes to Donte and Casspi...
There are too much talent here, but the roster is very unbalanced.
While you make some interesting points, I have to object to the one I've bolded. Height alone does not determine the position a player should play.
Telemachus
Starter
All I ever heard coming into that draft was how Darko was likely to be the best player to ever come out of Europe. There were even some who thought there was a chance he might be taken before LaBron James if not for the home town connection (not many, but a heard it more than once).
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AriesMar27
Guest
i dont know... los angeles was lebron fever... and all of the kobe lovers wanted carmelo to be better than lebron so that lebron wouldnt take kobe's shine. which he did... outside of the espn fluff writers, i cant think of anyone who thought that darko would be anything more than a lafrentz or tskishvili or however you spell his name. that dude from the nuggets who was just like lafrentz.... they were the sasha vujacic and sasha pavlovic of their time. darko was supposed to be the bigman version of them.
i really must have missed out on some serious hype... i knew about all of the lebron, carmelo, tj ford and wade hype. ford was my favorite player going into the draft but darko...nothing about him being potentially great at anything. all i remember of him was everyone saying how they knew little about him. but whatever...
roasthawg
Starter
Sergio is currently 20th in the league in PER...
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holl.../insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holl.../insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics
drboiffard
Bench
Yeah, height alone doesn't determine the position. But I think is quite obvius Reke's natural position is SG. If he is doing pretty well at PG is for the same reason Wade does it pretty well when he plays as PG: they are incredible good. But he still can't run an offense like Sergio, or a "true PG" does.
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Yeah so you missed the hype. Doesn't mean it wasn't there. I think posters have provided more than enough evidence that Darko was hyped up.
Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting you but you're coming across to me as trying to downplay the other posts about Darko in order to defend Rubio. Just saying that's how I feel. I'm sure Rubio will be way better than Darko though.
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Kingsguy881
Guest
the darko movement never came through my city... oh well its not like i missed out on anything.
why is everyone so fixated on Rubio? every post i make isnt about him, im not downplaying darko's hype or whatever it was to defend anyone. Rubio's hype will live on in these boards as long as other posters think that..
Because there has to be a reason for your strong dislike of Evans, and being that you were so angry they drafted him instead of YOUR BOY, well, we figure that is the reason why you won't give him any credit.
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AriesMar27
Guest
thats what you guys think? wow, it really isnt like that. i just wanted a pure pg, he who shall remain nameless was the best pure pg in the draft. my 2nd choice was jennings and if we had drafted a big with our first pick i wanted us to pick mills with our 2nd pick. i wouldve loved if petrie had traded for the wizrads pick and we couldve had both of them.
i havent given anyone any credit because they havent done anything that i didnt already expect them to do. if we are .500 in January you will see me praising everyone on the team because i dont expect them to be that good. its possible that they can do it but looking at their schedule i dont think it will.
my views on evans havent changed, he's a good player but i dont think that he will be a pg. im not trying to discredit him because i dont think he will be a pg. we just havent gotten far enough into the season for him to prove that he can be a fulltime pg. martins injury didnt help that since he has played his best next to a pg... call it what you want to call it but beno and sergio arent sg's... we can agree to disagree and just say that they are both guards but that was never in question.
evans has played well, i expect him to play well... but i just dont see him as a pg when its all said and done. hell, the players that most of you compare him to arent pgs.... some of you might be over the pg thing, i dont know... its almost like sacrilege to say it around here. you can call him a beast or a future star but i cant think of the last time anyone around here called him a pg.
now can we all just get back to just being kings fans? if i can live with nocioni and beno on the team i shouldnt have any problem with evans.
Rookie
Starter
We're heading in the right direction. Ahead of what most expected from the Kings.
If I remember correctly, your expectation of the Kings prior to the start of the season is that we are still the worst team in the league. We didn't change anything and on the road to another 17 win season.
News: We're not the worst team and going to have a decent season. No playoff but could easily be 30ish win team. Players are developing nicely, the newly acquire Kings are doing well. Pieces are merging together nicely. Rookies are showing potential and better than expected. But yet no credit because we didn't get a "pure" pg. Smoke much?
until they do what you like, you won't give anyone any credit. Glad I'm not in your life.
By the way..most of us wouldn't even think it was possible to be 0.500 in January but now it is a possibility. That deserves credit IMO.
When you get top 5 pick, you pick a star not someone who play the right position the right way. Get over it IMO. We drafted the right guy. END of Story!
If I remember correctly, your expectation of the Kings prior to the start of the season is that we are still the worst team in the league. We didn't change anything and on the road to another 17 win season.
News: We're not the worst team and going to have a decent season. No playoff but could easily be 30ish win team. Players are developing nicely, the newly acquire Kings are doing well. Pieces are merging together nicely. Rookies are showing potential and better than expected. But yet no credit because we didn't get a "pure" pg. Smoke much?
until they do what you like, you won't give anyone any credit. Glad I'm not in your life.
By the way..most of us wouldn't even think it was possible to be 0.500 in January but now it is a possibility. That deserves credit IMO.
When you get top 5 pick, you pick a star not someone who play the right position the right way. Get over it IMO. We drafted the right guy. END of Story!
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AriesMar27
Guest
okay...
obviously you havent read many of my posts if you are talking about me. check the archives buddy.... i was the first one to say that we would win 30+ games this season and i continually say that we were better than our 17 win record last season.but this thread is about sergio, who ive wanted on this team since the day he was not drafted by petrie... if anything he is the only player that i have backed 100% so far this season. i dont know where all of this drama is coming from....
IDidntDoDat
Bench
The Kings are definitely one of the biggest surprises(if not THE biggest) of this NBA season. If you looked at preseason power rankings, you'd see the Kings DEAD last on each of them. Even though power rankings are usually crap and don't mean much, in this case they do, because most people also considered the Kings to be bottom dwellers.
This simply is not the case this season. We can talk all we want about the Kings playing garbage teams so far this season and therefore our record is nice, but the fact is, this team is indeed much better than last season, and we all see that.
I think the biggest reason the Kings are doing so well so far is team chemistry. This is what makes them play so hard every damn night.
We heard from some Kings player about how everyone gets along and consider each other buddies, but my sister went to a club about a week ago, and had a chance to shortly talk to Segio and Casspi, who were in the VIP section, but looking really "chill" - aka not being around a ton of chicks, just chillin'
When she came back, the first thing she mentioned is how both of them mentioned to her about how good of friends everyone on the squad is. They play together, hang out together, practice together, etc. I think this whole friendship thing is pushing these guys to play hard and hustle for every ball, and is the reason our team is so successful this year.
this team is awesome and will only get better
This simply is not the case this season. We can talk all we want about the Kings playing garbage teams so far this season and therefore our record is nice, but the fact is, this team is indeed much better than last season, and we all see that.
I think the biggest reason the Kings are doing so well so far is team chemistry. This is what makes them play so hard every damn night.
We heard from some Kings player about how everyone gets along and consider each other buddies, but my sister went to a club about a week ago, and had a chance to shortly talk to Segio and Casspi, who were in the VIP section, but looking really "chill" - aka not being around a ton of chicks, just chillin'
When she came back, the first thing she mentioned is how both of them mentioned to her about how good of friends everyone on the squad is. They play together, hang out together, practice together, etc. I think this whole friendship thing is pushing these guys to play hard and hustle for every ball, and is the reason our team is so successful this year.
this team is awesome and will only get better
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Kingsguy881
Guest
Yes, it really IS like that, because Evans is SO GOOD that any normal folk would have gotten over it and accepted and, hey, even started ROOTING for him by now. But that is not part of your genetic make-up I guess. Holding a grudge till the day you die is probably more like it.
BTW, your 'call' for all of us to go back to being Kings fans? EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THIS FORUM (with the exception of section101) has been imploring you to GET OVER IT and be happy that the Kings are back on the right track. It's YOU who hasn't gotten over it, still making snide comments and subtle digs. So THE REST OF US will believe it when we see it. If you want to 'forget it and go back to being Kings fans', show us, and then we will belive it.
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AriesMar27
Guest
where? find the post where i have said anything negative or have talked down about evans.... besides where i called his numbers run of the mill which isnt an insult just my opinion of his numbers... and anyone who puts up those numbers. i have been critical of the team as a whole because they havent played any teams that would challenge them with the exception of the hawks and maybe the spurs who arent playing all that well this season. since the season began i havent said that the team sucks or anything bad about them. questioning the value of our record given the level of competition isnt a negative thing.
but oddly enough, before i even make a post you show up with some half-assed impersonation of a hypothetical version of me and thats where things go wrong.
whos your favorite kings player again?
how many threads have you completely hijacked in an attempt to start an argument? i have my opinion of this team and i never jumped on anyone's case for thinking otherwise. well, outside of the whole evans being a pg issue which i stopped arguing about over the summer. but have mentioned like 3 times in the past 2 days... in my defense of not disliking evans.
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Kingsguy881
Guest
"Run of the mill" = "dime a dozen". If you think that about Evans then good luck with that bud.
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AriesMar27
Guest
So... That's it? Evans has played well, but he hasn't blown me away because he is doing what I expect him to do. He hasn't exceeded my expectations yet. When he does, you'll be the first to know. I will pm you before I even make the post. 16 games into his rookie season he is playing as well as I thought he would. I can't give credit to someone for simply doing their job.
You guys know I love Sergio's game, I want to say great things about him but up until last game he hadn't done anything worth talking about. I treat Evans the same way, once he does something worth praising I will be more than happy to give him props. Jennings dropped 55 on the warriors and I gave Jim props for it. When Evans has that game where he blows a team out of the water I will be ready to give credit where credit is due.
Being good isn't good enough, he's supposed to be good. Let's shoot for great, I want this team to exceed my expectations. I expect them to win at least 33 games and we are almost a third of the way there. Like I said before the season started, I want is competing for a playoff spot not for John wall. Evans being 18/5/5 and the King's being 8-8 means that we are half way there. I'm not gonna praise the halfway mark. Sorry....
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Kingsguy881
Guest
Tyreke Evans: 20.3 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 5.1 APG
Dwyane Wade: 14.7 PPG, 4.7 RPG, 4.1 APG
LeBron James: 16.8 PPG, 6.8 RPG, 6.1 APG
Kobe Bryant: 5.4 PPG, 1.4 RPG, 0.5 APG
Allen Iverson: 21.8 PPG, 5.3 RPG, 6.4 APG
This is a comparison of 5 players first NOVEMBER in the league. If Tyreke isn't blowing you away, you either have no pulse or you aren't much of a true basketball head. Players just don't come out of the gate the way Evans and Jennings have, unless they are TRULY special. And Evans is truly special.
So reserve your judgement, temper your enthusiasm. You are alone on that island, guy.
Dwyane Wade: 14.7 PPG, 4.7 RPG, 4.1 APG
LeBron James: 16.8 PPG, 6.8 RPG, 6.1 APG
Kobe Bryant: 5.4 PPG, 1.4 RPG, 0.5 APG
Allen Iverson: 21.8 PPG, 5.3 RPG, 6.4 APG
This is a comparison of 5 players first NOVEMBER in the league. If Tyreke isn't blowing you away, you either have no pulse or you aren't much of a true basketball head. Players just don't come out of the gate the way Evans and Jennings have, unless they are TRULY special. And Evans is truly special.
So reserve your judgement, temper your enthusiasm. You are alone on that island, guy.
WALTtheWIZ
G-League
Serodriguez
Ive seen it mentioned that Sergio's biggest weakness is his shooting, but I don't think that is really an accurate knock on him. He would probably be better described as a streaky shooter and not a poor shooter. The best example I can think of is Mcgrady. Not what you would call a bad/poor shooter, but more streaky. His career percentages are most likely a poor reflection of his ability, garbage time and 3 minute stints will kill a FG %.
I think the bigger problem in Sergio's career up to now has been his defense. He is almost too big for the quicker guards (Paul type) and not strong enough for the post-up guards (Billups type). I saw it in the Knicks game when nate robinson got going. That being said, he seems motivated to play D and hustles which can mask some of his shortcomings. He, like the rest of the Kings, have remained focus on defense but the defense skill is not there (look at how many points we give up). The effort though is encouraging and has been a bright spot.
Sergio also gets in trouble when he starts getting carried away with threading the needle on every pass, yes, that is what makes him the player he is, but he could probably benefit from a nice balance between home run and safe passes.
Not to be too hard on the guy, he has been great and has made a strong case for more playing time...where that time comes from when everyone is back from injury will remain to be seen.
Ive seen it mentioned that Sergio's biggest weakness is his shooting, but I don't think that is really an accurate knock on him. He would probably be better described as a streaky shooter and not a poor shooter. The best example I can think of is Mcgrady. Not what you would call a bad/poor shooter, but more streaky. His career percentages are most likely a poor reflection of his ability, garbage time and 3 minute stints will kill a FG %.
I think the bigger problem in Sergio's career up to now has been his defense. He is almost too big for the quicker guards (Paul type) and not strong enough for the post-up guards (Billups type). I saw it in the Knicks game when nate robinson got going. That being said, he seems motivated to play D and hustles which can mask some of his shortcomings. He, like the rest of the Kings, have remained focus on defense but the defense skill is not there (look at how many points we give up). The effort though is encouraging and has been a bright spot.
Sergio also gets in trouble when he starts getting carried away with threading the needle on every pass, yes, that is what makes him the player he is, but he could probably benefit from a nice balance between home run and safe passes.
Not to be too hard on the guy, he has been great and has made a strong case for more playing time...where that time comes from when everyone is back from injury will remain to be seen.
drboiffard
Bench
LOL he's exactly the same size than Nash:
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AriesMar27
Guest
This isn't going to end is it? Do I have to go through each player one by one or will we be having this same argument every month? There isn't a way I can do this without taking this thread totally out of context. I hate typing on my iPhone so I will come back and reply to your post later.
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