Roy Hibbert
- Thread starter =LarryLegend=
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kupman
Starter
Ben Wallace is not a giant at 6'9"...is he good - yes; but he is no giant. And again, to say that all championship teams have good play inside is like "da." How many championship teams have had bad guard. All title teams have been good from top to bottom. The point that I was trying to make is that not all championship teams are built around giant, beefy guys in the middle.
Yes - you can say that all championship teams have a had a big guy in the middle. But then, all NBA teams have a big guy in the middle. If we won the title this year you could add Miller the lists you have generated.
Well I disagree with you about Obama! So there!
MITT ROMNEY FOR PREZ!
LOL. No you couldn't. Brad doesn't do what those guys do. All of those guys either were great at defending the post or defending the paint from other team's guards or a combo of that. Brad doesn't do either.
And it's not like we have bad guard play. We have good guards. But we are a bad team. Why? Because we have NOBODY inside. Even though Bibby/Martin/Artest haven't quite developed the chemistry everyone thought they would they are still a very talented 1-3 line up. But when you get to the 4/5 spots we don't even have a guy like Brendan Haywood. We don't even have a guy who rebounds.
And saying "Ben Wallace is not a giant" is just... it doesn't matter that he's "not a giant". He plays like one. There's a reason he has multiple DPOY awards. He sucks in all the rebounds like a tornado sucks in houses. He had some(3 I think) seasons where he averaged more RPG by himself than Brad and Kenny(our two best rebounders) combined. Every time he's gotten a lot of minutes in his career(basically after his first 2 years in the league) he's averaged as many or more blocks per game than Shareef, Kenny, Brad do combined.
Basically you cannot win anything with a frontline that's pathetic like ours. You keep saying "well you have to have 1 or 2 good guards also!" but we DO have good guards. Thing is it's not too hard to get good guards. It's a lot harder to get good big men. So when you have a chance to pick up a big man or 2 in this draft that's loaded with them you better actually go grab that PF/C.
supamari0
Bench
One thing to note about past history is that the rules were entirely different back in the day. The defensive rules made big men an absolute must because double teaming was harder and zones were entirely illegal. Not to mention hand-checking and other rules made guard play much harder. Back then, it wasn't just difficult, it was impossible without having great big men. In fact teams back then (outside the Bulls) had all star/super star big men anchoring the middle.
Nowadays, you only need a serviceable big man who can rebound and play some solid defense (ala Ben Wallace who I think is overrated regarding his defense) Unfortunately for the Kings, they've got garbage manning the front-line.
Nowadays, you only need a serviceable big man who can rebound and play some solid defense (ala Ben Wallace who I think is overrated regarding his defense) Unfortunately for the Kings, they've got garbage manning the front-line.
kupman
Starter
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Not all championship teams have had great guard play. Solid for the most part, but not great. And there have been many title teams with one or more highly questionable guards. The Rockets did not have great guards, got two titles anyway. The old Celtics' guards were no better than their 4th and 5th best players, they won anyway. Put Danny Ainge on our Kings from that era, and we sucked. Derek Fisher has three rings. So does John Paxson I think. The first San Antonio title featured Avery Johnson...and I don't even remember. Maybe Elie? Heck the second San Antonio title featured a too young Parker/Manu combo with a splash of Stephen Jackson. Didn't matter -- they had Duncan.
And NO, not all NBA teams have a "big guy" in the middle. Not one who plays like a big guy, not one who can dominates the big boys like a big man. Its not about being a HOFer, its about being able to man up and control the paint. And that means, rebounding, blocking shots, and maybe even occasionally chucking somebody in the chest with a forearm. However it is accomplished. putting up a giant "no trespassing" sign in the paint. And its no mystery why. Its really not hard. People are always tryign to fight the completley obvious: Basketball is a vertical game because the scoring device is 10 feet off the ground. The paint is the most critical area of the basketball court because it is the area closest to this scoring device. Hence he/she who has big guys controlling the area closest to the scoring device is going to dramtically up his/her chances of winning the game. Not hard. Nothing sneaky. The alternative is not too much different than trying to win a soccer or hockey championship with a crappy goalie. Not happening.
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kupman
Starter
...and not all championship teams have had great center play: the Chicago Bulls dynasty. Feel free to tell us how great Bill Cartwright, Luc Longley and Bill Wennington were. It could really be said that the Bulls won the rings in spite of their centers rather than because of their centers.
...and the Celtic guards were at least very good. Larry Bird has said more than 1x that DJ was the best player he ever played with...
....I know what you are saying Brick. I can't say that I disagree that having really strong post play is a big advantage to winning a title. I just would not go so far to say as really strong post play is a necessary factor for winning a title and I would certainly not say that it is a sufficient condition (ask Patrick).
bigbadred00
Starter
ROFL. Miller doesn't guard the paint very well my friend. Vlade was alright but to win look at the list I put up for you. All are way above average defenders. We haven't had 1 elite defender in the paint since god knows when (Keon?).
During the championship years, Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman were their bigs who got a lot of minutes. You might have mentioned them, too.
bigbadred00
Starter
He'll still be a HUGE upgrade of our current post defenders. He's young and has a lot more upside defensively then anyone on our current roster. You do realize we have a coach who is more defensive minded then our previous coach so we can have a player who doesn't need to score in our starting lineup.
I think you guys dead set on a big man may end up disappointed. Unless we get the top pick I don't think we are getting one of the bigs so coveted on this site. Even if we get the #2 or #3, Durant and Brewer are hands down the 2nd and 3rd best prospects in this draft. Even if Hibbert comes out, there are still only two proven solid big men in the draft after Oden, Hibbert and Horford. I think the top 6 are, in order:
1. Oden
2. Durant
3. Brewer
4. Horford
5. B. Wright
6. Hibbert
Unless we sneak into the #6 spot, I don't think we get a big. However, we might get a PG in Conley, who is my #7 prospect.
1. Oden
2. Durant
3. Brewer
4. Horford
5. B. Wright
6. Hibbert
Unless we sneak into the #6 spot, I don't think we get a big. However, we might get a PG in Conley, who is my #7 prospect.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Wright will go third, period. Brewer won't go before horford either.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
With any luck we will not have that cozch in about two weeks.
And our last coach was the coach of Doug Christie and Vlade Divac, not to mention Scot Pollard. He was also the coach of Buck Williams and Jerome Kersey. There's an idiot amongst our recent coaches who doesn't get it. You've tagged the wrong one.
In fact you may even have tagged the wrong personnel post. The GM is the guy who keeps on insisting on 5 scorers and a bottle of rum (for the fans as we get pummeled).
Vlade4GM
All-Star
The problem is the NBA is evolving into a running game whether we like it or not and I think being able to run and keep up is important. Hibbert is not going to be yao ming in the post and he's going to have problems with his stamina in the NBA. If he's going to be a focal part of our offense that's a big deal if he can't get down the court and in position in time. Hibbert has to improve his conditioning if he's going to make it in the NBA as a starter. I think he's talented and I don't want to give off the wrong impression that I don't like him, but I think he's going to have a problem making the jump to a big AND athletic NBA.
That is just silly. They outlaw handchecking and suddenly you DON'T need big men patrolling the paint? Think about that for one second. Without handchecking, it has made it easier for guards to penetrate and get into the paint. All the more reason that big men patrolling the paint are even MORE MORE MORE important. Duncan. Wallace. Shaq. Mourning.
Those are the guys who have won titles since handchecking was outlawed.
kupman
Starter
I think that we are talking about huge, beefy, slow guys that roam and clog the paint....I did not think that Horace and Rodman fit that description.
bigbadred00
Starter
Regardless, they were both way above average post defenders, something all competing teams need for titles.
I dont think that's necessarily true...he hustles down the floor and I think his awkward run(on his heels) gives off an enhanced appearance of being 'UNATHLETIC' I think he's more athletic than he's given credit for. I do agree about his stamina...but his athleticism..not so much. He's 7'2" he's pretty athletic for being that size. Moreso than many 7+ footers. Sure he's no Kevin Garnett or Tyson Chandler. But there aren't many of those. He is skilled though, IMO moreso than a Daly/Chandler type. I think he'd be a GREAT pick between 6-10.
You're probably right, but Brewer is a better prospect than both of them. In fact, if Brewer carried a heavier scoring load in college, I don't even think that Durant would be the guaranteed #2. I mean, Durant plays a little defense, but Brewer locks people down. He is going to give everybody fits except for Kobe. He might make Vince cry. Seriously.
bigbadred00
Starter
Your very wrong. Durant has just as long of a wingspan, POY, and he's just a freshman. Oden, Durant >>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone else in the draft.
Brandon Rush played excellent defense on Kevin. How many Rushes there are in the League?
allrightythen
Starter
I like Hibbert, but I don't like that line-up. I think we're getting to the point where we need to change, almost just for changes sake. I can't figure out why but these guys just haven't played well together and some rookie (even a good defender/rebounder) isn't going to change that.when was it that I said what about roy??
still if we are not lucky enough to get him.....Josh McRoberts son.....
these are my three picks in order.
1. Roy Hibbert - beast -
2. Josh McRoberts - white cwebb -
3. Corey brewer - the future ron artest(none wife beating) lol j/k
i hope roy i am so tired of people getting like 30 lay ups on us. D*** it!
bibby/ronnie/douby
kmart/cisco
maybe ron/salmons/BIG NASTY(cheap)
b52/sar
hibbert/jwill
If we continue the current slide we may even end up with a better talent than Hibbert. Is it too early to be excited about next year?
I can't think of a better scenario than drafting Oden and Conley Jr. That would require a minor miracle for us to win the lottery and also trade Bibby for a top 10 pick. But barring that dream scenario, I think we really have to go big this year. You can't count on another top 10 pick next year and quality big men rarely last past the top 10 in any draft. Next year's draft is looking like the year of the point guard so we can possibly replace Bibby then.
And looking at the big man options this year after Oden/Durant (who you have to take if they're available without question) -- Wright, Horford, Noah, Hawes, Splitter, Jianlian, and Hibbert -- I think Hibbert could turn out to be an awfully good choice. Aside from Oden (and potentially Hawes but that remains to be seen) Hibbert is the only consistent back-to-the-basket low-post scorer in the bunch. And unlike Hawes, he's got potential as a defensive presence in the paint as well. With some developing outside shooting touch and very developed passing skills from 3 years of playing in a Princeton offense, you've got a player big enough and talented enough that he's unlikely to fail in the NBA. He played Oden pretty much even in the Ohio State-Georgetown game and don't forget he's only 19 years old.
Drafting Hibbert would require a certain commitment to slowing the tempo however. Teams that run a lot are going to want Wright, Noah, or Jianlian in their frontcourt. If Wright's available you probably have to pick him just on potential. Noah and Jianlian are the yin and yang of lanky big men with good defense/no shot and good shot/weak defense. And Horford is a more traditional PF with enough strength to play in the low post. Any of those players are likely to help you. But I'm becoming increasingly convinced that a true center has more potential to be dominant in the right system, and other than Oden, Hibbert is the only one worth taking in this draft.
And looking at the big man options this year after Oden/Durant (who you have to take if they're available without question) -- Wright, Horford, Noah, Hawes, Splitter, Jianlian, and Hibbert -- I think Hibbert could turn out to be an awfully good choice. Aside from Oden (and potentially Hawes but that remains to be seen) Hibbert is the only consistent back-to-the-basket low-post scorer in the bunch. And unlike Hawes, he's got potential as a defensive presence in the paint as well. With some developing outside shooting touch and very developed passing skills from 3 years of playing in a Princeton offense, you've got a player big enough and talented enough that he's unlikely to fail in the NBA. He played Oden pretty much even in the Ohio State-Georgetown game and don't forget he's only 19 years old.
Drafting Hibbert would require a certain commitment to slowing the tempo however. Teams that run a lot are going to want Wright, Noah, or Jianlian in their frontcourt. If Wright's available you probably have to pick him just on potential. Noah and Jianlian are the yin and yang of lanky big men with good defense/no shot and good shot/weak defense. And Horford is a more traditional PF with enough strength to play in the low post. Any of those players are likely to help you. But I'm becoming increasingly convinced that a true center has more potential to be dominant in the right system, and other than Oden, Hibbert is the only one worth taking in this draft.
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Oh boy, you've obviously taken a shine to Brewer, but over Durant? That's not even close. You're trying to get some poor GM somewhere lynched by his own fans.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
The last thing I want is a slow-down team. We have one of the fastest players in the league in Kevin Martin and we get a big man to slow down the game? And it's not like he's a great initiator of a fast break - he's not a great defensive rebounder, nor a great outlet passer. If he were, he would compliment and augment the speed of Martin. But he's not that kind of player from what I've seen.
I paid a lot of attention to the Denver big men last night. These guys can move extremely well to get either blocked shots or rebounds. Hibbert can't.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Good point. Dallas and Phoenix don't exactly have Wilt and Jabbar on their team and either one could win the championship this year. I don't think Wallace is overated though. Just his defense on Shaq when they won the title rates him very highly with me.
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