kingsboi
Hall of Famer
Agreed. Collison is a keeper in my book.
Restart the rebuild around Boogie?
- Thread starter Bosnian Diehard
- Start date
Agreed. Collison is a keeper in my book.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
There is always talent to be found in the second round if the organization does its homework. That is why I hope Vlade tries to acquire a second rounder, preferably in this years draft. I mean for example, let's look at last year's second round picks that are contributors; Harrell, Richaun Holmes, Darrun Hilliard, Josh Richardson. Those players are all in their respective teams' rotation. Talent is there, I'd like Vlade to take the Portland approach and acquire draft picks for cash considerations and things of that nature.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I have reached the point where I can't even watch Rondo on the defensive side of the ball. He makes Collison look like a lock down defender. I watch opposing PG's take him off the dribble and he doesn't even move to pursue them. He did it several times last night. He totally loses track of the man he's guarding. In the Spurs game Rondo was at the top of the circle watching the ball while Parker slipped away and got a backdoor layup. This happens game after game. Were last in the league in points allowed, and Rondo is a big part of why. He's not the only reason why, but I don't see this team ever being a winning team with him at the helm.
So, I want Rondo gone. I want Karl gone. Gay needs to be traded in the best deal we can get for him. If we can get a good young player along with a future first round pick, and clear a little more capspace as well, I'm on board. McLemore needs to be moved as well. Trade him to Philly. They seem to want every young player in the league and get a future first back for him. Try and sign Harrison Barnes. I like the idea of Bazemore as well. Both those guys play defense. Any coach we hire, make it clear that part of his job is develop our young players. Cauley-Stein needs to get more than 5 minutes a game.
Someone explain to me how were getting killed on defense in the fourth quarter and Willie just sits on the bench, while Karl sits there smiling with his thumb up his butt. I can't stand to look at his face anymore.
If the goal is to be an improved defensively I can't see how Rondo is part of that plan. Maybe the Kings nab Dunn in the lottery and let him develop behind DC for a year.
Or trade McLemore for a late 1st to grab Baldwin. I like him as a Bobby Jackson type backup.
Cousins will want Rondo back but I don't think he helps a team win due to his awful defense and poor shooting.
Well, with as bad as luck as the Kings have had with SGs, I'd rather not attempt to move a guard you know can score for you for one you hope will. Rather trade a bench big since the roster has depth there.
ParniValjak
All-Star
I tend to agree. SG is a MAJOR issue for us and has been ever since we let Tyreke walk to NO. Must be addressed. If we bring back Rondo (which we should), the SG must be a good defender and a 3PT shooter.
Gay is good but if you can upgrade that position by trading him for a genuine #2 option that can create his shot at either SG or SF, you look at it. Especially if the player you are replacing him with is younger.
Overall Collison has been a good pick up for us but ideally, I wouldn't mind replacing him with a genuine combo guard that can defend, create and stretch the floor.
Koufos has been exactly what he has been all the years in the league. He is a great back up C but for the minutes he plays, the contract while reasonable, could be utilized better somewhere else.
I don't get why certain people want Rondo back. It's a mutual agreement that defense is the problem on this team. Rondo and Belinelli are our worst defenders on the team..they're interchangeable. Rondo's unwillingness to stay in front of his man is unacceptable. At least Belinelli tries.
So why do we bring back one of the league's worst PG defender? Because Boogie is his friend? We've already established that defense is the problem with this team... do we really need Rondo's playmaking ability to boosts us into the playoffs?
You draft a young defensive PG this year with high upside and roll with Collison. Use that cap space we have from not signing Rondo, and sign a defensive wing.
It's not rocket science...
Collison/Dunn/Curry
Bazemore/McLemore/Belinelli
Gay/Casspi/Butler
WCS/Acy
Cousins/Kofus
Even without doing anything else except drafting and signing Bazemore, this hypothetical team looks better than our current team.
So why do we bring back one of the league's worst PG defender? Because Boogie is his friend? We've already established that defense is the problem with this team... do we really need Rondo's playmaking ability to boosts us into the playoffs?
You draft a young defensive PG this year with high upside and roll with Collison. Use that cap space we have from not signing Rondo, and sign a defensive wing.
It's not rocket science...
Collison/Dunn/Curry
Bazemore/McLemore/Belinelli
Gay/Casspi/Butler
WCS/Acy
Cousins/Kofus
Even without doing anything else except drafting and signing Bazemore, this hypothetical team looks better than our current team.
twslam07
All-Star
Curious to why you have Rondo in bold. I find myself rather neutral on Rondo. He has his pros, and he has his cons. I know Boogie really respects him and might be (maybe a bit of an understatement) upset if we choose to let him walk. However, I would rather Cousins be upset with Rondo walking and win next year vs. Cousins being happy that we kept Rondo and have another losing or disappointing season (therefore, leading to an unhappy Cousins). Cousins is in this business to win ball games. If you're confident that the team will be better without Rondo, you move on. Again, Cousins might be upset in the beginning, but if you're confident in your abilities as a GM, you know the success of the team would put Cousins in a happier place long term.
Now that we've squandered the argument that we should keep Rondo to appease Cousins. The only argument left is does he fit with the team & can he help elevate this team to a high level. What makes it a lock for you that we should sign Rondo using the majority of our cap space rather than using the cap space elsewhere (letting Collison step into the starting role again) or making a deal to bring in a PG that fits well with Cousins that won't break the bank (Teague)? Curious to hear your side.
twslam07
All-Star
Pretty bold to rely on a top 5 pick to fall to #9 or #10. Not unheard of, but it shouldn't really be something you're considering in a hypothetical scenario when planning for the offseason.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
Cousins most definitely will want Rondo back. I'm most certain of it. However, this team has reached a point where they can't look to strictly appease him anymore. He needs to play with what is available and given to him, the front office just needs to do their part and have a vision, an identity and stick with it.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Dunn and Baldwin are the two best PG's in the draft in my opinion, and both have legit size for the position. And, both, at least at the college level are good defenders. I'd be very happy with either. Dunn has enough size to switch over and play SG if needed. He's very good at playing off the ball. Dunn will probably be gone when we pick, but Baldwin should be there if were interested.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
1) No, having Cousins respect is absolutely critical.
2) but having stature around the LEAGUE is even more critical. Again, people centered just in Sac might legitimately miss this. But Rondo is a league-wide phenomenon and personality. He has a ring, All Star appearances, a rep. Not always a good one. But he is a clear #2 on the "fame" scale to Cuz himself. You want people to come to Sac, whether it be coaches or players? You want TV to tune in? They will for Rondo. Not for DC or our newest scrub of the month candidate. Rondo matters.
3) Rondo is going to lead the league in assists. For a fourth time. People have apparently very quickly forgotten the half decade before this season when every single year we were down at the very bottom of the league in assists. No creativity at all.
4) Because Rondo leads the league in assists he buys you a certain amount of bad ballhandling teammates. You are looking for low skill 3 and D players? Well Rondo is a player who buys you those. He can create and find them.
5) Rondo is the experience. He's been to the mountain. Has almost as much playoff experience as the whole rest of the team combined. You want more and more and more of that.
If Denver beats the Knicks tonight and the Kings fall to the Cavs tomorrow, Sacramento will have the 7th worst record. Should the Pelicans manage to beat Charlotte then the Kings would be tied for sixth.
The Laker, Suns & Timberwolves all have PGs. It's not so far fetched.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Well he certainly will be if you keep taking away the only high level teammates he's ever had and dumping them so you can replace them with more of Sacto's polished turd of the weeks.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Rondo isn't high level. He can't defend and I don't regard any player that can't defend as "high level." He's a very good passer, and those stats are augmented by him being able to dominate the ball. He gets along with Cousins, but like I said I really don't care about that.
Bosnian Diehard
Starter
I think it's a problem when your starting PG does three things cery poorly:
-- bad shooter
-- very bad defender
-- way too many turnovers (3.9 per game)
I'd rather start Collison and spend our cap at SG in the offseason.
-- bad shooter
-- very bad defender
-- way too many turnovers (3.9 per game)
I'd rather start Collison and spend our cap at SG in the offseason.
Showtime
Starter
How, exactly, do you rebuild around Boogie when he's gone after next season? Kings have no picks. Their assets are exactly what they WOULD go after otherwise, leaving the only option is to trade said assets for picks, leaving the first problem of him being gone soon. Kings have backed themselves into a corner here.
I've looked at the draft and there aren't any teams that need a PG except for the Bucks..especially Dunn who struggles shooting.
1. Phil- will probably take BPA.
2. Lakers- don't need a PG.
3. Suns- don't need a PG.
4. Celts- Maybe, but they have IT and Smart. Need more shooting.
5. Minnesota- Maybe, but will they take another PG who isn't a good shooter? They also need more shooting..(Hield/Murray/big?)
6. Pelicans- Maybe, but Jrue has played great and they have Tyreke too. (Desperately need a SG...Hield/Murray)
7. Nuggets- they need a PG, but probably don't take another
Kings currently slot here.
9. Raptors- don't need a PG
10. BUCKS- only team that definitely needs a PG.
Dunn should be there at 8 imo. The other teams don't need a PG except for Philadelphia(who will take Simmons or Ingram anyways) and the Pelicans who have Jrue..still only 25 and has been playing at a high level.
Absolutely. You can work with Dunn, Casspi, Cuz, Koufos and WCS as a defensive core. Trying to woo Conley would be a far better use of our time and money than getting Rondo back too.
A majority of our issues stem from the problem that we have a bad defensive coach and 0 defensive talent on the perimeter. When Omri Casspi is far and away our best perimeter defender, your team is going to have issues. Not a knock on Omri, who's easily become one of my favorite players on the team, but he should not be a teams designated defensive stopper. The bigs to me are fine and I'd be perfectly comfortable going into next season with Cuz, Koufos, Acy and WCS as the rotation. Keep Omri as well as a potential starter or in the same 6th man role.
But Im done with Rondo and Gay. They don't put any effort into trying to play defense and their stats on offense are mainly empty that don't lead to wins (obviously)
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I would assume those remarks are meant for:
John Wall (4.0TO, 2.5Ast/TO ratio, .338 3pt%)
Westbrook (4.2TO, 2.5Ast/TO, ratio, .296 3pt%)
more than
Rondo (3.9TO, 3.1Ast/TO ratio, .358 3pt%)
And forget about Conley. Unless there's some connection I don't know about, he has absolutely no reason to go to Sacramento.
You want more realistic try to woo Thibs with Cuz/Rondo/WCS, then offer him old stalwarts like Noah and Deng in free agency while using Koufos and Gay to bring back other pieces. That is unlikely to happen either, but at least has a certain logical plan symetry to it.
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I'm warming up to Baldwin. I still don't think he has the necessary playmaking skills, but the league is trending towards scoring guards anyways. This is the year to draft a PG.
Blob
Starter
If the Kings are going to let Rondo walk they had better get better passers and ball handlers at SF and SF and PF because if you have a less ball dominant PG with Ben Rudy and Willie it is a total turnover fest and comedy of errors.
It is a tough call on Rondo because he has some gaudy numbers 12/12/6 and a 17 PER and 45% FGs but this masks a really low TS% of 50% (57 out of 72 PGs) since he makes only 1 FT per game.
By contrast Darren is 58.6% TS which is a career high (3rd among ALL PGs!) after slow start to season. I know he has been spilt milk in crunch time but he has also been pure money for two months minus the last two minutes of the game.
I am inclined to keep Rondo around because I like his rebounding and his entry passes to Boogie and if we can upgrade our perimeter it will help to mask his weaknesses. And also I don't think Mike Conley has us high on his list.
It is a tough call on Rondo because he has some gaudy numbers 12/12/6 and a 17 PER and 45% FGs but this masks a really low TS% of 50% (57 out of 72 PGs) since he makes only 1 FT per game.
By contrast Darren is 58.6% TS which is a career high (3rd among ALL PGs!) after slow start to season. I know he has been spilt milk in crunch time but he has also been pure money for two months minus the last two minutes of the game.
I am inclined to keep Rondo around because I like his rebounding and his entry passes to Boogie and if we can upgrade our perimeter it will help to mask his weaknesses. And also I don't think Mike Conley has us high on his list.
This is where you lose me to a large degree. The Kings should bring in players that compliment their best player, sure, but resigning a guy at $18 million a year (or whatever Rondo will demand) because Cousins respects him? He's respected Rondo all season long. And the two of them have put up very good stats. And the Kings are on pace to win 33 games.
I don't know that Rondo and Cousins are going to recruit anyone to Sacramento as long as they are losing. And even if they could, the Kings aren't going to have the caproom to sign impact players with Rondo, Gay, Cousins, Koufos & Belinelli eating up $65 million to start with. And honestly I don't care about people outside Sacramento tuning into the Kings or how many national games they get. I want to see a winning team. A winning team attracts free agents and TV viewers and I'm not convinced that Rondo can help a team win.
The other way to get the assists up is for everyone on the court to move the ball. The Spurs & Hawks average more assists than the Kings while not having any player average even 6 assists per game. Tony Parker barely averages 5 per to lead the Spurs. I love watching Rondo conduct the offense but an offense where the ball doesn't stick with one player but has everyone moving the ball is harder to stop than one led by a ball dominant PG. Especially a ball dominant PG that can't shoot.
This is true. And it's really the only way to maximize a Rondo/Cousins pairing. You put two 3&D guys at the wing spots. Rudy isn't a great fit because he'd rather create his own shot than be a catch and shoot guy. IF the team re-signs Rondo I think Rudy needs to go in a trade. If that's the plan, I'm somewhat okay with it. If the plan is to roll out the Rondo/Gay/Cousins core again I'm guessing it'll be another lottery bound Kings team.
Playoff experience IS a big deal. Especially when its a guy who was a key cog and not a bit player. Rondo was the fourth best player on that title team but he's a guy that knows what it takes to win a title and grind it out in the playoffs. The question is whether this Kings team is even good enough to make the playoffs to take advantage of that experience.
Because although he's a basketball savant and a guy who orchestrates an offense as well as anyone, Rondo is also THE biggest sieve in the defense. And the biggest reason defenses are able to sag on Cousins. Like you I want to see much more emphasis on defense going forward but it's hard to reconcile that with handing the keys to maybe the worst defender among starting PGs in the NBA. Either Rondo can't play defense anymore or he won't. I'm not sure which is worse. If one of your biggest key players (#2 after Cousins I'd imagine) is going to be so limited in terms of defense and shooting then you're really going to have to have the perfect cast around he and Boogie to win.
Blob
Starter
We have Boogie under contract for two more seasons after this one.
gunks
Hall of Famer
I'd way rather have Conley than Rondo.
Or should I say. ... Rono! Get it? No D!
That being said, if he resigns here on a decent contract, I wouldn't mind it. I just don't want to overpay for a guy with terrible defense, terrible shooting, and (at times) terrible decision making.
He also strikes me as a guy who might check out after his payday. But I'm not really basing that on anything. Haha
Or should I say. ... Rono! Get it? No D!
That being said, if he resigns here on a decent contract, I wouldn't mind it. I just don't want to overpay for a guy with terrible defense, terrible shooting, and (at times) terrible decision making.
He also strikes me as a guy who might check out after his payday. But I'm not really basing that on anything. Haha
Just looking at this is a big reason why I'd love to try and go get Conley. There just aren't many teams who will need or want to invest a lot of money (or a top pick) into a PG anymore.
The biggest threat here in the top 10 is Philly actually, if they get the Lakers pick too. Very easily see them grabbing Dunn at 4 and 5 with how weak they are at the position after the take a Simmons or Ingram.
Celtics are going to roll with Smart/IT, a combo that's worked out fantastic for them. Minny just invested a huge deal into Rubio and he's signed for another 3 seasons for 45+mil more. Nuggets have already given the reigns to Mudiay and they aren't going to pair him with another guard who can't shoot.
Pelicans aren't going to invest even more into the PG position than they've already have. As you said, they need SG help as well as SF and C help in the worst way.
Bucks are interesting for sure, because they've been running out the Point Giannis lineup that's been really effective lately. So just getting a quality defender there like Dunn would make some sense, but they already moved MCW, who's a similar player, to the bench to give more usage to Giannis.
I think it's a pretty poor year to draft a PG. The Balwin and Dunn are the only guys I like and I think Baldwin likely ends up as a backup PG in the NBA. I like Dunn. I think people need to stop comparing him to John Wall. Dunn doesn't have that kind of quickness. He's not an explosive athlete either. To me he's more like Mudiay without the busted shot.
Jesus.
You did not just compare Rondo to Wall and Westbrook..... Talk about cherry picking stats to try and construct a misconstrued narrative..
twslam07
All-Star
No, I already disproved this idea already. Cousins would be upset if we let Rondo walk because he thinks Rondo gives him a good shot at winning. If Cousins is wrong and the team wins without Rondo, how would anyone in their right mind think Cousins wouldn't be on board and no longer have respect for the franchise.
Again, I'm not disagreeing that having Cousins respect is critical. There's probably only a select few who don't share that feeling, but having a winning team will earn more respect than a losing team. Sure, he might be upset at the beginning, but if it makes us better as a team, I can't see how anyone would argue against it.
If you're not able to make the team better without Rondo, then you obviously keep him, but you don't turn down an opportunity to get better because Cousins will be upset in the short term. If the team is better and wins, Cousins will have more respect than he's ever had for the franchise.
Stature isn't as much about names as it is about wins. Players are most likely not coming here because Rondo is our PG. Players will come to play here if we have a good team, and if that good team has Collison as the starting PG so be it. Hell the Heat had Chalmers as their starting PG. Lakers had Fisher. One position doesn't make a team. A team makes a team.
Assists are great. I don't think anyone would knock Rondo on this one. He does a great job at setting up his teammates with easy looks. However, they aren't the end all be all. You just need to be able to score efficiently and play defense. Of the teams that are top 10 in assists this year, 5 of them are below 500. There are many different ways to build a great team.
Again, not doubting this logic, but one could also argue that Rondo's tendency to dominate the ball make it difficult to pair him with other players who need the ball in their hands to be effective.
Not doubting his experience. It obviously comes in handy down the stretch.
So again, it comes down to does resigning Rondo make us better next year (now that we have, once again, debunked the 'Cousins will be upset argument'). Again, I'm pretty neutral on Rondo. I can go either way on letting him walk or resigning him. If we are going to keep him, then Gay has to go. To optimize a Cousins/Rondo tandem, you need defenders and shooters in the starting lineup next to them. If you resign Rondo to around 16 mil in the first year, trade Belinelli for cap, trade Koufos/2016 1st for Ariza, trade Gay for T. Evans, & trade Collison/McLemore for Gibson/Snell, that leaves us with $18 mil in cap space. From there, you look to sign Crabbe or C. Lee with your cap space and use the MLE on Aldrich.
PG - Rondo (36 min)/Evans (12 min)/Curry
SG - Lee (26 min)/Evans (22 min)/Snell
SF - Ariza (32 min)/Casspi (16 min)/Anderson
PF - Cauley-Stein (16 min)/Gibson (26 min)/Casspi (6 min)Acy
C - Cousins (36 min)/Cauley-Stein (12 min)/Aldrich
Cousins - 36 min
Rondo - 36 min
Evans - 34 min
Ariza - 32 min
Cauley-Stein - 28 min
Lee - 26 min
Gibson - 26 min
Casspi - 22 min
I'd be excited to root for that team next year.
