Rent Felton for a year?

[rainmaker]

Some like the idea of a Reke/Thornton backcourt. Some like the idea of putting a true pg next to Reke, and have Thornton provide pure scoring off the bench, such as Terry or Crawford. I don't have a problem with starting Thornton, but think ideally his most natural fit would be 6th man.

But, I'm thinknig about the Petire interview a couple days ago, and he said he wants another ballhandler/leadership. Given Beno already is one, and isn't starting, I think he might want a starting pg, and bring Beno/Thornton off the bench, which would give us a very deep and potent backcourt.

Den obviously has two starting caliber pg's, and rumors are they prefer Lawson, and will deal Felton. Felton is on the books for $7.5M next year, and is an expiring. So do we try to get him and see if it works for a year? I was pretty iffy on cementing Feltons talent based on what he did in NY, over a short period. But he played very well off the bench in Den as well, in a different system. 11.5 pts/6.5 ast/3.6 reb/46% from 3, in just over 30 mins per.

He's not really a shoot first pg, which we don't need, is good with the ball, and has improved his spot up shooting considerably. If it doesn't work? He comes off the books next year and we have more to spend on a deeper 2012 FA class. The question is what is he worth giving up, and is it worth it.

 

[Bricklayer]

No. The disruption to everything we are doing here would be terrible. You blow up the three guard almost as soon as we find it. You take away what Reke does well by taking the ball out of his hands. You take the ball out of Cousins hands as a creater. And to top it off you get small. So how about...no.

 

[rainmaker]

No. The disruption to everything we are doing here would be terrible. You blow up the three guard almost as soon as we find it. You take away what Reke does well by taking the ball out of his hands. You take the ball out of Cousins hands as a creater. And to top it off you get small. So how about...no.

Well any ballhandler or starting caliber pg would disrupt the 3 guard rotation, and I'm not confident enought in Reke/Thornton to completely dismiss going after a starting pg, not after seeing them both repeatedly jack up jumpers instead of getting the ball to Cousins. Felton would set up the offense, and would get the ball inside. He's not ball dominant in the halfcourt set, and Reke would still get plenty of touches.

As reke gets better at both shooting and moving without the ball, he'll get better/easier shots. That's when you need another ballhandler next to him. I guess you're more confident in Thornton ability to play within the offense and distribute than I am. In Felton I don't see someone who'll take shots away from Reke, but help him get better shots. I see someone that would help us get more transition baskets, and someone who can knock down open jumpers.

We obviously disagree here.

 

[DesertFox]

I wouldn't hate the move as a slight upgrade on Beno, maybe in a package with Casspi. Not necessarily something worth doing, but a fair trade on both sides.

Maybe I'm being mean here, but Felton doesn't look like the sort of player who will age well. Unless Petrie sees something he really loves in Felton and they can get him locked up, it's not worth pursuing.

 

[swisshh]

I am for it. A vet guard to run things correctly down the stretch would have turned so many losses into wins. The team has needed it for years, and Thornton is destined to be a 6th man anyways.

 

[bajaden]

I am for it. A vet guard to run things correctly down the stretch would have turned so many losses into wins. The team has needed it for years, and Thornton is destined to be a 6th man anyways.

Just exactly what is it in your mind that makes a player a 6th man instead of a starter? I'm just curious. Just what are you basing that observation on? I admit that we only had a small sampling of what Thornton can do, but it was one hell of a sampling. In 27 games he averaged 38 minutes a game. 21.3 points per game. 3.4 assists per game. 1.7 steals per game and 4.7 rebounds per game. So to your mind, just exactly what does a player have to do to earn a starting spot on your team. Or does really have more to do with you wanting to take the ball out of Tyreke's hands?

 

[Glenn]

I am for it. A vet guard to run things correctly down the stretch would have turned so many losses into wins. The team has needed it for years, and Thornton is destined to be a 6th man anyways.

Why? He can score, rebound, and mix it up among the big trees like Bobby Jackson. He seems to defend fairly well. He has too much talent to give him 20 minutes or less a game. If we had unlimited money, having a guy like him MIGHT be OK coming off the bench but he's a starter. He is especially a good starter because he gets paired with a guy who makes up for his lack of size. The threesome we have right now worked at the end of the season and I don't think messing with it is a very high priority.

 

[rainmaker]

Well, I disagree with those who don't think we have a need for Felton or a starting pg, but at least we're disagreeing about basketball and not bickering over the Maloofs.

 

[bajaden]

Well, I disagree with those who don't think we have a need for Felton or a starting pg, but at least we're disagreeing about basketball and not bickering over the Maloofs.

To my mind this whole discussion comes down to whether you, (not meaning you) think Evans is a point guard or not. If you do, then you don't see an immediate need for another point guard. If you don't, then your probably on the side that thinks we need one. Personally I have no dog in this hunt. Evans is what he is, and he's not yet a finished product. I don't particularly care if he's a point guard in the strict sense of the word. As long as he can give somewhere between 16 to 20 points a game, 5 ot 6 assists a game, and I don't care how he gets them, plays good defense, rebounds like he did his rookie year, and most importantly cut down on turnovers and time of possession, I don't care what you call him.

Petrie said that the team needed another good ballhandler. I agree with him. That doesn't necessarily mean another point guard. Could be a shooting guard or a combo guard. But someone that doesn't turn the ball over much, and handles and passes the ball well. If were going to run some variation of the motion offense, we don't need a true point guard. All we need are players at all positions that can handle, pass, and shoot the ball, with the most emphasis on passing ability. Up the assists, and decrease the turnovers, and you start to win some games.

Now if Chris Paul wants to come here an play, then I'll rethink the whole thing. But for Raymond Felton, I'm not going to change much of what we were doing at the end of the season with the three man rotation. It may not have been perfect at all times, but it didn't have much time to get polished either. You want another backup point guard, then get a player thats solid, but content to sit on the bench until needed. Felton is going to want to play, and I don't blame him. To my mind the last thing I want to do is give Westphal another reason to tinker with the rotations.

 

[Glenn]

To my mind the last thing I want to do is give Westphal another reason to tinker with the rotations.

Might be a big factor unfortunately.

 

[swisshh]

Why? He can score, rebound, and mix it up among the big trees like Bobby Jackson. He seems to defend fairly well. He has too much talent to give him 20 minutes or less a game. If we had unlimited money, having a guy like him MIGHT be OK coming off the bench but he's a starter. He is especially a good starter because he gets paired with a guy who makes up for his lack of size. The threesome we have right now worked at the end of the season and I don't think messing with it is a very high priority.

It's just where guys like Thornton end up. He is primarily a scoring threat. He is also a bit of a tweener, but I don't think he's that small for a SG. He can run a pick n roll, but is not a longterm option at PG. The guy you just compared him to, Bojax, was a sixth man of the year guy. You can still give him plenty of minutes as a bench guy.

And, unfortunately, Westphal will tinker with the lineup no matter what.

 

[bajaden]

It's just where guys like Thornton end up. He is primarily a scoring threat. He is also a bit of a tweener, but I don't think he's that small for a SG. He can run a pick n roll, but is not a longterm option at PG. The guy you just compared him to, Bojax, was a sixth man of the year guy. You can still give him plenty of minutes as a bench guy.

And, unfortunately, Westphal will tinker with the lineup no matter what.

I agree with your last sentence, unfortunately! I look at Thornton as a SG, and I agree he's a bit undersized. I do think that a little too much is made of a an inch or two sometimes. He will run into taller players he'll have to defend, or Evans will, like Kevin Martin. But then you've got the Gordons of the world like Ben and Eric, who, at least size wise he would match up with. The reason I like him, is because he's a better passer than some thought, and he's not the dark hole that he was advertized to be. He plays without the ball very well, and if Tyreke is on the floor, you need someone like Thornton out there with him that doesn't have to have the ball in his hands all the time.

Its not my intent to excuse Tyreke's tendecy to over dribble at times. Having the offense run through Cousins has actually cut down on that quite a bit. But it is a part of his game he has to work on. Along with improving his outside shot. Or just a jumpshot from anywhere is fine from me, as long as he can become consistent with it.

 

[Arkitect]

I think our top guys are set at both guard positions, but I wouldn't mind a player that was a little more defensive minded than Beno on the bench as well. I would put that 2nd on our priority list for new acquisitions after a starting SF.

 

[SacKings7]

I pretty much agree with what bajaden has said in regards to this topic. I'm still insisting that Tyreke is our PG and will insist it until I'm clearly wrong. However, I do hope we get a reliable veteran to be our 4th or 5th guard to replace Pooh Jeter, somebody that doesn't need minutes but can run our offense without missing a beat when need be.

 

[mr. moustache]

Is Felton a young SF that can make a jumpshot and plays good defense? If so, I'm totally down with the idea.

 

[Bricklayer]

Thornton is not completely ideal sizewise, but he showed last year that he plays bigger than his size and has many of the traits you would be looking for from a larger player. He used his athleticism to rebound for us, he has a post game, he attacks the rim hard. And to whatever degree defensively he could have probelms in certain matchups, that's where it comes so incredibly handy having a 6'5" 225lb PG, and hopefully, HOPEFULLY, a major defensive minded SF.

 

[LPKingsFan]

I pretty much agree with what bajaden has said in regards to this topic. I'm still insisting that Tyreke is our PG and will insist it until I'm clearly wrong. However, I do hope we get a reliable veteran to be our 4th or 5th guard to replace Pooh Jeter, somebody that doesn't need minutes but can run our offense without missing a beat when need be.

No doubt. Even if you don't want to call Tyreke a PG, at the end of the day the ball is going to be in his or Cousins' hands, so a "pure PG" is pointless.

 

[Tyndel]

I am sure Thornton would love to sign a new contract with us and after tasting how successful he can be starting being told that he is back on the bench... I second the not giving WP a reason to play musical lineups again.

 

[Spike]

Petrie said that the team needed another good ballhandler. I agree with him. That doesn't necessarily mean another point guard. Could be a shooting guard or a combo guard. But someone that doesn't turn the ball over much, and handles and passes the ball well. If were going to run some variation of the motion offense, we don't need a true point guard. All we need are players at all positions that can handle, pass, and shoot the ball, with the most emphasis on passing ability. Up the assists, and decrease the turnovers, and you start to win some games.

I read the same thing into Petrie's comments as well. A veteran ball-handling SF who plays great defense would be the perfect complement to this team.

 

[Larry David]

I am for it. A vet guard to run things correctly down the stretch would have turned so many losses into wins. The team has needed it for years, and Thornton is destined to be a 6th man anyways.

I like this a lot.

I’d start Felton and Evans … and bring Thornton off the bench … but still play him 30 minutes a night like Terry or Crawford.

It’s good for Evans. You move him off the ball – where IMO – he belongs. I think, like with Iverson, he will take off once remove this burden from him. But when Felton rests, you put Evans at the “point” and say “Party like its 2009-10 big guy. We don’t care about your passing, just physically dominate the PG off the dribble.”

I know some people are going to scream heresy, but in crunch time – if you want Thornton on the court, Evans is going to play some 3 in a 3 guard set. At this point, you need a wing or guard to facilitate the crunch time offense and you want Thornton (who is a two) on the court. Evans slightly plays out of position, but a position he can more than physically handle. Until Evans changes that aspect of his game, the Kings need to do that anyhow … so I’m on board with a PG … whether its Irving or Felton (great idea)

I think you’d see a lot of Fetlon/Evans, Evans/Thornton … Felton/Thornton … and at the end of games all three.

I can see the point of – we have what we need at this point, but that’s far from certain. Thornton might still be a 6th man type player. Evans might still be more Iverson than Westbrook. With 14 feet of big men inside and the fact that Evans can physically handle and rebound with any 3 … I’m fine with playing Evans at 3 for only 5-8 minutes a game .. but most likely the end of most games.

 

[Larry David]

I read the same thing into Petrie's comments as well. A veteran ball-handling SF who plays great defense would be the perfect complement to this team.

I think that's true. If you could get a Grant Hill - that would work. I just don't see him leaving PHX , let alone coming here

The problem is that the Evans/Thornton backcourt creates a hard profile to fill the 3. The way those guys play, the 3 man needs to be a passing "point forward." With Evans out there and needing to create room for the big men posting up, the SF also needs to be a good shooter. We need defense. We need a vet.

SF - who is great at passing, well above average at shooting, very good at defense, vet, free agent, who wants to come to Sacramento, for a big contract but not a break the budget contract. Other than Hill, not only do I not see that player coming this summer ... I'm not sure how many players fit that profile in the league.

I'm on board with Evans/Thornton ... but if you are going to try to play them together ... unless the right SF comes along ... I think they mix and match and Evans will get forced over to 3 or Thornton over to the bench at points.

 

[Larry David]

No doubt. Even if you don't want to call Tyreke a PG, at the end of the day the ball is going to be in his or Cousins' hands, so a "pure PG" is pointless.

I disagree. You not only would it help to have a pure PG creating the shots for Evans or Cousins ... you need somebody in the 4th quarter that can manage the touches and get them the ball in positions where they can do their thing. Not to talk about the Lakers, but the way Fisher tried to help Jackson work with two players that were sure they needed a touch or a play for them. Somebody who knows how the game should be played and is strong enough to be the mediator. Which might hurt my Irving case.

Its not about getting somebody set up with 4 seconds to go. It's about the entire 4th quarter, when everybody wants to do the right thing ... but they are so eager to help the are stepping on each other toes.

 

[SacKings7]

I disagree. You not only would it help to have a pure PG creating the shots for Evans or Cousins ... you need somebody in the 4th quarter that can manage the touches and get them the ball in positions where they can do their thing. Not to talk about the Lakers, but the way Fisher tried to help Jackson work with two players that were sure they needed a touch or a play for them. Somebody who knows how the game should be played and is strong enough to be the mediator. Which might hurt my Irving case.

Its not about getting somebody set up with 4 seconds to go. It's about the entire 4th quarter, when everybody wants to do the right thing ... but they are so eager to help the are stepping on each other toes.

But Cousins and Evans are our future, and they should be the ones looking to shoot the ball in the 4th quarter, not set up others (unless they're open of course). Evans has a lot to learn about the PG position, and I know where you're coming from with your argument, because he tends to over-dribble and force shots a lot. But it's a relatively new position to him, and the coaches should be working hard alongside him to point out his mistakes and how to correct them.

 

[Bricklayer]

I disagree. You not only would it help to have a pure PG creating the shots for Evans or Cousins ... you need somebody in the 4th quarter that can manage the touches and get them the ball in positions where they can do their thing. Not to talk about the Lakers, but the way Fisher tried to help Jackson work with two players that were sure they needed a touch or a play for them. Somebody who knows how the game should be played and is strong enough to be the mediator. Which might hurt my Irving case.

Its not about getting somebody set up with 4 seconds to go. It's about the entire 4th quarter, when everybody wants to do the right thing ... but they are so eager to help the are stepping on each other toes.

the 4th quarter shennanigans is more a question of experience than anything else. We've seen it in the playoffs too, especially amongst younger teams like the Pacers and OKC.

A pure PG worth his salt is anathema to this team. Takes away the strengths of our best players to substitute in his own lesser skills. A point in the Jeter role to provide little steadying bursts is called for. As is a guy like a Kirilenko -- not sure about the Hill fascination given that the guy has cataracts and is gue to break a hip next time he goes to the floor, but that too. Whatever. Just a steadying bit of extra help around the edges. The rest has to come from within.

 

[Larry David]

the 4th quarter shennanigans is more a question of experience than anything else. We've seen it in the playoffs too, especially amongst younger teams like the Pacers and OKC.

That might be true. But there are some players that simply can't or won't play - whatever you want to call it, the right way or winning basketball.

To me, a Evans/Thorton backcourt seems like Francis and Mobley with the Rockets. And I don't say that in a positive way.

 

[bajaden]

I think that's true. If you could get a Grant Hill - that would work. I just don't see him leaving PHX , let alone coming here

The problem is that the Evans/Thornton backcourt creates a hard profile to fill the 3. The way those guys play, the 3 man needs to be a passing "point forward." With Evans out there and needing to create room for the big men posting up, the SF also needs to be a good shooter. We need defense. We need a vet.

SF - who is great at passing, well above average at shooting, very good at defense, vet, free agent, who wants to come to Sacramento, for a big contract but not a break the budget contract. Other than Hill, not only do I not see that player coming this summer ... I'm not sure how many players fit that profile in the league.

I'm on board with Evans/Thornton ... but if you are going to try to play them together ... unless the right SF comes along ... I think they mix and match and Evans will get forced over to 3 or Thornton over to the bench at points.

One of the reasons I like the idea of Kirilenko. He's a very underrated passer, and is a good defender and he certainly shoots the ball good enough that you have to respect him. And I do think he's someone we could lure here with the right offer.

 

[bajaden]

I disagree. You not only would it help to have a pure PG creating the shots for Evans or Cousins ... you need somebody in the 4th quarter that can manage the touches and get them the ball in positions where they can do their thing. Not to talk about the Lakers, but the way Fisher tried to help Jackson work with two players that were sure they needed a touch or a play for them. Somebody who knows how the game should be played and is strong enough to be the mediator. Which might hurt my Irving case.

Its not about getting somebody set up with 4 seconds to go. It's about the entire 4th quarter, when everybody wants to do the right thing ... but they are so eager to help the are stepping on each other toes.

What your referring to is experience at the end of games. That will come with time playing together. There's no one point guard thats going to come in and be the savior of the team, unless its Derrick Rose. The Kings play a motion offense. A variation of the Princeton offense. One thing you don't need with that offense is a true point guard. Which Derrick Fisher isn't in my opinon. Fishers biggest value for the lakers is that he is capable of bringing the ball up the court, and he's capable of hittiing the open shot. But I certainly wouldn't call him a playmaker. He's not going to wow you with fancy no look passes off penetration.

What the Kings need to do is learn to play as a team. And that requires effort from every player on the team. There is no quick fix for that. Just hard work and dedication. I watched Dallas play last night, and they're a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Dallas is a team made up of stars or ex-stars,due to aging, or older experienced blue collar guys. No one on the team is trying to be the hero. No one seems to care who scores. They all realize that none of them on their own can get the job done, and that they've got to help one another. And they're winning.

Now I don't expect the Kings to become Dallas overnight, but thats what they need to strive for. By the way, I don't see your comparison of Thornton and Evans being anything like Francis and Mobley. Thornton is for more unselfish a player than either of those guys, and I see little comparison between Francis and Evans. Other than maybe they both attacked the basket. I never saw much change in Francis game from the time he came into the league until he left. Can we give Evans a couple of years before we start making comparisons. As an aside, three players I never liked in the NBA. Francis, Mobley, and AI. None of them were team players in my opinion. It was all about them.

 

[swisshh]

the 4th quarter shennanigans is more a question of experience than anything else. We've seen it in the playoffs too, especially amongst younger teams like the Pacers and OKC.

A pure PG worth his salt is anathema to this team. Takes away the strengths of our best players to substitute in his own lesser skills. A point in the Jeter role to provide little steadying bursts is called for. As is a guy like a Kirilenko -- not sure about the Hill fascination given that the guy has cataracts and is gue to break a hip next time he goes to the floor, but that too. Whatever. Just a steadying bit of extra help around the edges. The rest has to come from within.

Conley hasn't hurt Gay or Randolph.

and

Kobe manages to get good shots even though everyone knows he is getting the ball. Why? Because he gets set up well.

The changes that would have to occur in Evans are just not in his DNA, and if they were, they appear more than a few years away from happening, and even then, he needs someone to learn from. .

 

[bajaden]

Conley hasn't hurt Gay or Randolph.

and

Kobe manages to get good shots even though everyone knows he is getting the ball. Why? Because he gets set up well.

The changes that would have to occur in Evans are just not in his DNA, and if they were, they appear more than a few years away from happening, and even then, he needs someone to learn from. .

Whose the great Point guard, or pure point guard if you will, that sets up Kobe? Please don't say Fisher. As for the Grizz, they play an entirely different type of offense than the Kings do. Are you honestly going to tell me that you don't think Evans can't do what Fisher does, other than shoot the ball? I mean, come on. I know you don't like him, but he is a very skilled player. And he's more than capable of bringing the ball up the floor and making an entry pass. And thats all Fisher does! If you want to criticize his bad tendecys, that I understand. I get frustrated as well, and find myself screaming at my tv for him to pass the ball. But I also understand its a learning process, which in my opinion was slowed dramaticly by his personal injuries, and constant changing of players and rotations.

If you don't want to take those things into consideration, thats fine. Not fair in my opinion, but thats life. Its my opinion that at seasons end the Kings had their most effective, competitive, starting lineup on the floor. If we're able to resign both Dally and Thronton, thats the lineup I expect to see starting the season, with only one exception. And hopefully thats Cisco, who was the weakest part of that starting unit. And I say that with no intent to degrade Cisco. He is what he is, and that a nice backup player at either the SG or SF position.

One of the reasons I like Thornton on the floor with Evans is that his ability to score from the outside helps free up Evans. Toward the end of the year, Evans had one of his best games, against, I believe Utah. Utah's game plan was to make life miserable for Thornton and they did a good job of overplaying him. But Evans had a terrific game as a result of less pressure on him. Now I believe we ended up losing that game. But good teams make you pay for overplaying a player.

 

[swisshh]

bajaden: I'll just point to Conley vs Westbrook is why a game manager makes a difference on a young team.