(Prediction thread) How much longer will coach Smart stick with the starting lineup?

[K F Jay]

(Prediction thread) How much longer will coach Smart stick with the starting lineup?


... of IT/MT/Evans/JT/Cousins. Barring injury

 

[Glenn]

He is incapable of changing the lineup in anyway that would make me confident that the Kings are on the right path.

 

[ParniValjak]

He will stick with it because there is an obvious, deluded push by the front office for IT for ROY marketing gimmick.

Our front office seems to be concerned with everything but putting a winner on the court.

 

[Section 101]

He will stick with it because there is an obvious, deluded push by the front office for IT for ROY marketing gimmick.

Our front office seems to be concerned with everything but putting a winner on the court.

It's not about IT. MT or Evans need to go to the bench for a better rounded lineup.

 

[Spike]

He will ride it to the bitter end.

 

[ParniValjak]

It's not about IT. MT or Evans need to go to the bench for a better rounded lineup.

I agree that the logical choice is for MT to go to the bench BUT no one can convince me that we are not pushing the IT point here. He has been a steal of the draft and has been playing well so in our true fashion we are bumping him up and promoting him as the next best thing. Its something that Kings have been doing since Adam was a boy as soon as we get a half decent draft pick. When Hawes came in he was out next Vlade. When JT came in we said the organization starts comparing him to Webber. Then Reke comes in and dominates and we obviously pushed for the 20-5-5 despite everything. Then in comes Cousins and we do the same. At least with Reke and Cousins is understandable because they are the building blocks.

Then we go on to draft Jimmer and start pushing the Jimmer mania before he even played a single game. So when Jimmer flopped, we turned to IT and are pushing that card hard here. Every freaking broadcast you have the organizational mouth piece Jerry Reynolds crapping on about how no other rookie aside from maybe Irving has been as good as IT. I love IT but lets be honest here, he is not Irving's ******* in terms of player quality.

If we put winning above everything else, we would be much better on. Instead we are searching for the next marketing wave where we can bring in come $$ from selling the merchandise without realizing that we are killing ourselves in the long run. Start winning and the $$$ will take care of itself.

Smart doesn't have what it takes to make the tough call so he is going for the easy option in all this. Tyreke is arguably the least selfish player on the Kings so if he doesn't get his share of looks he won't kick up the stink. Take those looks away from Thornton and there will be a ****storm brewing. Couple that with the fact that our coach and Thornton are from the same town and have known each other for a while, and the decision all of a sudden gets tougher for our coach. The great coaches are NOT afraid of making tough calls.

 

[Section 101]

I agree that the logical choice is for MT to go to the bench BUT no one can convince me that we are not pushing the IT point here. He has been a steal of the draft and has been playing well so in our true fashion we are bumping him up and promoting him as the next best thing. Its something that Kings have been doing since Adam was a boy as soon as we get a half decent draft pick. When Hawes came in he was out next Vlade. When JT came in we said the organization starts comparing him to Webber. Then Reke comes in and dominates and we obviously pushed for the 20-5-5 despite everything. Then in comes Cousins and we do the same. At least with Reke and Cousins is understandable because they are the building blocks.

Then we go on to draft Jimmer and start pushing the Jimmer mania before he even played a single game. So when Jimmer flopped, we turned to IT and are pushing that card hard here. Every freaking broadcast you have the organizational mouth piece Jerry Reynolds crapping on about how no other rookie aside from maybe Irving has been as good as IT. I love IT but lets be honest here, he is not Irving's ******* in terms of player quality.

If we put winning above everything else, we would be much better on. Instead we are searching for the next marketing wave where we can bring in come $$ from selling the merchandise without realizing that we are killing ourselves in the long run. Start winning and the $$$ will take care of itself.

Smart doesn't have what it takes to make the tough call so he is going for the easy option in all this. Tyreke is arguably the least selfish player on the Kings so if he doesn't get his share of looks he won't kick up the stink. Take those looks away from Thornton and there will be a ****storm brewing. Couple that with the fact that our coach and Thornton are from the same town and have known each other for a while, and the decision all of a sudden gets tougher for our coach. The great coaches are NOT afraid of making tough calls.

The problem isn't IT. IT is the best one at running the team. The problem is there is nobody else on the roster. That is a management problem not a coaching one.

 

[Glenn]

I see the problem and solution in a different way. IT is a shoot first PG on a starting 5 with 3 other scorers. That wastes our offensive punch. Then we have a bench group that has little scoring ability. I want the Kings to trade MT as keeping him and putting him on the bench is one way of saying we have no faith in Jimmer and have no interest in developing him. I want the Kings to acquire a PG that is a past first PG to be a starter. Perhaps this is how we use MT as a trade but I don't care how it comes about.

A pass first PG among our starters wasts none of our scorers. Putting IT on the bench gives him full permission to shoot away to his heart's content. This would upgrade our starers and definitely upgrade our bench.

I would not put MT or Tyreke on the bench as #1 they are better than that and #2 it squanders any talent that Jimmer might have. The problem of where to put Tyreke would automativally be taken care of as he would have to start at SG with the trade of MT.

None of this can be done this year as we let the trade deadline pass with no action. We will need to limp along for the rest of the season to complete what I consider a wasted year. BTW, there really isn't much left to the season so what's the rush?

 

[rainmaker]

The problem isn't IT. IT is the best one at running the team. The problem is there is nobody else on the roster. That is a management problem not a coaching one.

Define better job running the team. We're still the worst jump shooting team in the league. We're not winning at any better % than before. We're giving up a buttload of points. This is our 2nd four game losing streak since IT took over at point, and that doesn't count the 2 other 3 game losing streaks. That's 4 separate three game losing streaks since IT took over. We're losing to teams we beat with Reke at point in Jan/Feb. He's also doing a s*** job at getting anyone other than Cuz involved.

So what's better besides IT's stats?

 

[rainmaker]

Couple that with the fact that our coach and Thornton are from the same town and have known each other for a while, and the decision all of a sudden gets tougher for our coach. The great coaches are NOT afraid of making tough calls.

That's an interesting dynamic I haven't thought about lately. Smart and MT go back to the same neighborhood, and I think MT's mom and Smart go to the same church. I think even someone in Smart's family went to school with MT's brother or sister. Not sure, but it was something like that. Also know MT's mom immediately called Smart upon hearing we hired him.

Lends to my impression that Smart bonds with a couple players, and tries to ride them above all else to victory. Did the same in GS, except there as here one of the players he kicked to the side is one of the teams top two players.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Define better job running the team. We're still the worst jump shooting team in the league. We're not winning at any better % than before. We're giving up a buttload of points. This is our 2nd four game losing streak since IT took over at point, and that doesn't count the 2 other 3 game losing streaks. That's 4 separate three game losing streaks since IT took over. We're losing to teams we beat with Reke at point in Jan/Feb. He's also doing a s*** job at getting anyone other than Cuz involved.

So what's better besides IT's stats?

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but we have been moving the ball better as a whole. Assists are up. We rarely reached over 20 assists before Thomas became the starter and now we are consistently above 20. I think we were dead last in assists and now we are 26th. Still horrible, but that passing HAS been better.

Now, if I'm benching one of IT, MT, or Evans ... my choice would be Thomas.

To your last point .. It's not like Tyreke was doing such a bang up job getting everyone involved either.

 

[Gary]

For the rest of the season which is the right thing to do.

The only other option in my mind would be to bench MT (which imo he doesn't deserve to be benched because he's done all we have asked of him, and all that he is capable of) and put Evans at SG while playing Williams or Salmons at SF. Or Bench Evans for Williams or Salmons. I don't think either one of them deserve to be benched for crappy Salmons, and 10day Terrance.

 

[rainmaker]

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but we have been moving the ball better as a whole. Assists are up. We rarely reached over 20 assists before Thomas became the starter and now we are consistently above 20. I think we were dead last in assists and now we are 26th. Still horrible, but that passing HAS been better.

Now, if I'm benching one of IT, MT, or Evans ... my choice would be Thomas.

To your last point .. It's not like Tyreke was doing such a bang up job getting everyone involved either.

So are an increase in assists all we have to show? Is that how success in now measured? Under Smart with a Reke/MT/Salmons lineup we had a higher winning % and were knocking off some of top teams in the league. This lineup is worse. So defense doesn't matter? Rebounding? Win/loss column? Development of a cornerstone player beyond the next few games? And that isn't directed at you, just the situation in general. How in gods name does higher assists all the sudden become more important than every other facet of the game? Are higher assists the only good thing which has come from this lineup? Looks like it....

Reke didn't do a bang up job, that's true. However his ast rate while running point under Smart was almost identical to IT's. Of course now however IT is the one who's gotten an extended period to learn and run this system, not Reke. One other point, IT is ignoring Reke on the wing, when Reke was point, he wasn't ignoring a Tyreke Evans type talent on the wing. It was John Salmons. Big difference. Yet he still set him up at the same rate as IT does.

 

[ParniValjak]

So are an increase in assists all we have to show? Is that how success in now measured? Under Smart with a Reke/MT/Salmons lineup we had a higher winning % and were knocking off some of top teams in the league. This lineup is worse. So defense doesn't matter? Rebounding? Win/loss column? Development of a cornerstone player beyond the next few games? And that isn't directed at you, just the situation in general. How in gods name does higher assists all the sudden become more important than every other facet of the game? Are higher assists the only good thing which has come from this lineup? Looks like it....

Reke didn't do a bang up job, that's true. However his ast rate while running point under Smart was almost identical to IT's. Of course now however IT is the one who's gotten an extended period to learn and run this system, not Reke. One other point, IT is ignoring Reke on the wing, when Reke was point, he wasn't ignoring a Tyreke Evans type talent on the wing. It was John Salmons. Big difference. Yet he still set him up at the same rate as IT does.

Let's take it one step further and drop this little gem.....OKC one of the teams with the worst assist averages in the league but funnily enough one of the best teams in the league.

I guess people would rather lose playing pretty, free-flowing offensive basketball than win ugly.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

So are an increase in assists all we have to show? Is that how success in now measured? Under Smart with a Reke/MT/Salmons lineup we had a higher winning % and were knocking off some of top teams in the league. This lineup is worse. So defense doesn't matter? Rebounding? Win/loss column? Development of a cornerstone player beyond the next few games? And that isn't directed at you, just the situation in general. How in gods name does higher assists all the sudden become more important than every other facet of the game? Are higher assists the only good thing which has come from this lineup? Looks like it....

Reke didn't do a bang up job, that's true. However his ast rate while running point under Smart was almost identical to IT's. Of course now however IT is the one who's gotten an extended period to learn and run this system, not Reke. One other point, IT is ignoring Reke on the wing, when Reke was point, he wasn't ignoring a Tyreke Evans type talent on the wing. It was John Salmons. Big difference. Yet he still set him up at the same rate as IT does.

No, I agree with you for the most part. I was just answering your 'what is better besides IT's stats' remark.

I'm putting a little more stock into better ball movement then just assist numbers. In my opinion we went from a bad offensive team and a bad defensive team to a decent offensive team and a horrible defensive team. Neither starting lineup (Evans/MT/Salmons or IT/MT/Evans) were/are getting it done. We still have a horrible record. We still suck on defense.

The one positive is that we have created another real young asset in Isaiah Thomas. He is a legit NBA talent that has value around the league .. and a piece I wouldn't be against trading after the year is over.

 

[Goo]

Define better job running the team. We're still the worst jump shooting team in the league. We're not winning at any better % than before. We're giving up a buttload of points. This is our 2nd four game losing streak since IT took over at point, and that doesn't count the 2 other 3 game losing streaks. That's 4 separate three game losing streaks since IT took over. We're losing to teams we beat with Reke at point in Jan/Feb. He's also doing a s*** job at getting anyone other than Cuz involved.

So what's better besides IT's stats?

x1000

For me it is simple
Reke MT Salmon JT DMC
this line up looks alot more like a winning combo than
IT MT Reke JT DMC

Reason is we have size in all 5 position instead of giving up height/weight on 1 and 3.
Once you have defense, offense will come.

 

[The_Jamal]

x1000

For me it is simple
Reke MT Salmon JT DMC
this line up looks alot more like a winning combo than
IT MT Reke JT DMC

Reason is we have size in all 5 position instead of giving up height/weight on 1 and 3.
Once you have defense, offense will come.

Because that lineup worked so well the first time right?

 

[Spike]

Because that lineup worked so well the first time right?

Yeah, it actually was showing growth and competing with, and in some instances, beating, upper echelon teams. Had Salmons actually hit the open shots at his average, it would probably still be the starting 5.

But we're scoring more points now, and that's cool too.

 

[sdballer]

Because that lineup worked so well the first time right?

Lineup records:

evans, thornton, salmons, thompson, cousins
6 wins, 4 losses (with one loss by 2 points)

Thomas, thornton, evans, thompson, cousins
2 wins, 10 losses


Next

 

[rainmaker]

Lineup records:

evans, thornton, salmons, thompson, cousins
6 wins, 4 losses (with one loss by 2 points)

Thomas, thornton, evans, thompson, cousins
2 wins, 10 losses


Next

I was about to make a thread on that. You are correct. Think I will make a thread on it. Best lineup so far under Smart.

 

[Kings Faithful]

Lineup records:

evans, thornton, salmons, thompson, cousins
6 wins, 4 losses (with one loss by 2 points)

Thomas, thornton, evans, thompson, cousins
2 wins, 10 losses


Next

What about Thomas, Thorton, Salmons, Thompson Cousins? That record is better than both of those, so we should bench Evans right?

In my mind we have three options. Evans off the bench, Thorton off the bench, or start them both and find a ball moving SF. Williams looks like he has no problem dishing the ball so hopefully that will work out, but this team has no ball movement with both Evans and Thorton on the floor. At least this year, last year we looked good with them but we've become so much more selfish with those guys playing. Nothing makes me more sick than seeing Evans dribble the ball for a few seconds without even considering passing then jacking up an utterly terrible fadeaway jumpshot with 18 seconds left on the clock. Not only does he do that, he tends to do it when we go on runs, effectively ending our scoring spree. Its just so dumb.

 

[sdballer]

What about Thomas, Thorton, Salmons, Thompson Cousins? That record is better than both of those, so we should bench Evans right?

In my mind we have three options. Evans off the bench, Thorton off the bench, or start them both and find a ball moving SF. Williams looks like he has no problem dishing the ball so hopefully that will work out, but this team has no ball movement with both Evans and Thorton on the floor. At least this year, last year we looked good with them but we've become so much more selfish with those guys playing. Nothing makes me more sick than seeing Evans dribble the ball for a few seconds without even considering passing then jacking up an utterly terrible fadeaway jumpshot with 18 seconds left on the clock. Not only does he do that, he tends to do it when we go on runs, effectively ending our scoring spree. Its just so dumb.

Maybe we should. I still think its odd that despite the good record at that lineup, once again the insistence is to have thomas continue to start. Never mind the 2-10 with that particular mismatched squad or the 7-14 overall with IT starting. This prevailing belief that his role somehow leads to better performance confuses me.

 

[Gary]

Maybe we should. I still think its odd that despite the good record at that lineup, once again the insistence is to have thomas continue to start. Never mind the 2-10 with that particular mismatched squad or the 7-14 overall with IT starting. This prevailing belief that his role somehow leads to better performance confuses me.

It's too small of a sample size imo. Not diminishing what they did but I doubt if we went with that lineup the whole year we would be much better (if at all ) than what we are now. Wasn't part of that 6-4 right when we had a coaching change? That could have played a part with all the players trying to impress the new coach and get some PT. Back when they put IT at PG I don't think they were thinking they were going to be advertising Thomas for ROY or anything, I believe Smart just wanted to try something different because what was out there didn't look good to him and I don't think you bench your second best player so he found a spot to put him for the time being. Hopefully next year things work out better.

So under Smart they were 6-1 or whatever with that lineup so obviously on one hand you praise him a bit since you didn't include the 0-3 with the lineup under Westfail (Talking about Rains Thread). But on the other hand it was Smart that changes the lineup.

 

[sdballer]

It's too small of a sample size imo. Not diminishing what they did but I doubt if we went with that lineup the whole year we would be much better (if at all ) than what we are now. Wasn't part of that 6-4 right when we had a coaching change? That could have played a part with all the players trying to impress the new coach and get some PT. Back when they put IT at PG I don't think they were thinking they were going to be advertising Thomas for ROY or anything, I believe Smart just wanted to try something different because what was out there didn't look good to him and I don't think you bench your second best player so he found a spot to put him for the time being. Hopefully next year things work out better.

So under Smart they were 6-1 or whatever with that lineup so obviously on one hand you praise him a bit since you didn't include the 0-3 with the lineup under Westfail (Talking about Rains Thread). But on the other hand it was Smart that changes the lineup.

It was 7 games after the coaching change that they went to the 6-4 lineup so westphal nor the afterglow had anything to do with it. It was a small sample size but its not as if the current lineups longer run has shown to be any kind of improvement and it puts people out of position, which is never a good thing for wins or development.

 

[Martian Child]

Well if he can keep his head in line I think we have a SOLID 2 guard in Terrence Williams. I dont think anyone denies the talent is present but he just needs to stop flipping out and getting suspended like he did in NJ and Houston. Then again we hardly ever have a game where MT doesnt go for 20-3-3.

 

[Gary]

It was 7 games after the coaching change that they went to the 6-4 lineup so westphal nor the afterglow had anything to do with it. It was a small sample size but its not as if the current lineups longer run has shown to be any kind of improvement and it puts people out of position, which is never a good thing for wins or development.

Cousins development has come further with this lineup but at the expense of Evans. That why on the other thread I just voted to stick with it until the end of the year, then re-evaluate next season starting with Evans at SG and MT off the bench, and have the full training came to work the bugs out. No reason to change things now, and like I said before it's not like that lineup would be playing .800 ball or anything.

 

[Mal]

Having a point guard that is a threat to score means other teams can't double Cousins as often. You might note Thomas gets everyone involved early in the game, but uses his quickness to score in the second half when opponents are starting to tire. He's doing exactly what he should do. Your team needs one more outside threat for better balance.

Having Evans at point, just allows teams to pack the lane, and makes life more difficult for Cousins while defending "Reke" at the same time. Cousins is clearly doing much better with Thomas at point. A consistent shooter from the SF position would be nice.

What draft position is expected this season? More than one first rounder?

 

[beb0p]

Let's take it one step further and drop this little gem.....OKC one of the teams with the worst assist averages in the league but funnily enough one of the best teams in the league.

I guess people would rather lose playing pretty, free-flowing offensive basketball than win ugly.

I'm sorry, but this is just plain dumb. You're saying an NBA coach is going out of his way to tank, and the sole reason is because he likes one particular role player; a role player, not even the star, at the detriment of the entire team and the motivation for that is because they met each other a few times before this season. A coach still trying to make a name for himself is trying to lose purposely, to please a role-playing second round pick. Yeah, make sense.

Or is it because IT is the only point guard on the team? Could that be the reason? Maybe, just maybe, it's very hard to run an offense without a point guard?

Win ugly? Free flowing basketball? Uh? When did the Kings ever had that? Did you missed the entire season? The King's options are get blown out, stay close and lose, and once in while eke out a win. If you think that we can actually win with three SGs in the starting lineup, then you should watch more NBA basketball.