Peja needs to go
- Thread starter Elektrik
- Start date
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How can Peja have too much respect for the game when you just admitted that he's never rebounded well in 7 years and that he's never gone after loose balls. I'm seeing other posts saying "sometimes it looks like his heart it in it". What's all this BS???? How could you be anymore soft??? He's getting paid millions to play a game and you're telling me he's too good to give it 100% every night??? How can any respect that? I remember CWebb coming back last year and going all out on a bad knee in the playoffs. YOu never questioned his heart the last 2 years. All Peja did was disappear just like he has EVERY year in the playoffs and then whine about wanting a trade just because his "Uncle Vlade" left. Then he acts as if it's everyone else's fault that he doesn't get the ball enough. How about being a man, being more aggressive, learning how to dribble, and creating your own shot?
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Now that's just taking it too far. We already get enough of the angry name-calling bunk when it comes to Webb.
Whether Peja is soft or not, he has always conducted himself with class when he's been around the Kings -- even his trade demand was couched in the mildest possible language, and he hasn't done a single thing to disrupt this team this year despite having ample opportunity if he is still unhappy.
I think you may be confusing some of Peja's attitude/words with those of some of his fans.
And BTW, there is a vast gulf between a naturally passive player perhaps lacking in fire and competitiveness and a player who is dogging it. In the first case, its just who/what he is. He an be trying his best, but he simply lacks the killer instinct, the burning desire to grab every ball. He may be a weenie, but he's still giving his weenie best. A player dogging it is another animal altogether -- that's somebody who could do better, who has done better, and who intentionally sets out not to.
Whether Peja is soft or not, he has always conducted himself with class when he's been around the Kings -- even his trade demand was couched in the mildest possible language, and he hasn't done a single thing to disrupt this team this year despite having ample opportunity if he is still unhappy.
I think you may be confusing some of Peja's attitude/words with those of some of his fans.
And BTW, there is a vast gulf between a naturally passive player perhaps lacking in fire and competitiveness and a player who is dogging it. In the first case, its just who/what he is. He an be trying his best, but he simply lacks the killer instinct, the burning desire to grab every ball. He may be a weenie, but he's still giving his weenie best. A player dogging it is another animal altogether -- that's somebody who could do better, who has done better, and who intentionally sets out not to.
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98-99 Minutes: 21.4 Rebounds: 3.0
99-00 Minutes: 23.6 Rebounds: 3.7
00-01 Minutes: 38.7 Rebounds: 5.8
01-02 Minutes: 37.3 Rebounds: 5.3
02-03 Minutes: 34.0 Rebounds: 5.5
03-04 Minutes: 40.3 Rebounds: 6.3
04-05 Minutes: 39.0 Rebounds: 4.3
Peja's averaging 2 less rebounds from last year while only losing 1 minute of playing time. Heck, he averages significantly more rebounds per minute even in his first 2 years off the bench. How can this NOT be a dropoff? I'm glad some people are taking blinders off and realizing he's been consistently bad and having more stretches of "going through the motion" than occasionally lighting it up. His FG% is far worse at .445, nearly losing a full .05 from the last few years. That's his main role too, shooting. Heck, Webber puts up a significantly better percentage at .457 with no leg strength in his jumpers.
That being said, we aren't moving this guy (in a fair deal) till the offseason unless some kind of miracle happens and another GM loses half his brain cells. Peja has one more chance to give a good showing in the playoffs. A lot of fans, including me, can forgive a lackluster regular season if a player increases production when it really counts. I just hope the recent disillusionment doesn't translate to open hating on the court. The fans already made that mistake with Webber, they don't need to do it again.
Of course, I have a hard time imagining anyone booing Peja... the guy will never be controversial. He also gets a free pass on an injury while Webber was hurt far worse and everyone expected him to bring it every night. They also both came back from the latest round of injuries at about the same time and Webber put up TDs. You know why Webber should have some credibility making comments about being soft? It's because he's playing through a painful, career-ending injury every day and still putting up TDs. He's a 44% clutch 3-point shooter. He's doing exactly what he said he would. I may not like him as a person but I have to respect the player. He's got heart. If you guys want to know what more Peja should be bringing every night, just look to #4.
Peja's game starts and ends with shooting because he made it that way. No one's preventing him from hustling or grabbing a rebound. When he's bad, he's really bad because he's taken away his best secondary options for contributing.
P.S.: If anyone is going to try and make more of Peja's back than there actually is, be prepared to not say one bad word about Webber ever again, unless you like being a hypocrit.
99-00 Minutes: 23.6 Rebounds: 3.7
00-01 Minutes: 38.7 Rebounds: 5.8
01-02 Minutes: 37.3 Rebounds: 5.3
02-03 Minutes: 34.0 Rebounds: 5.5
03-04 Minutes: 40.3 Rebounds: 6.3
04-05 Minutes: 39.0 Rebounds: 4.3
Peja's averaging 2 less rebounds from last year while only losing 1 minute of playing time. Heck, he averages significantly more rebounds per minute even in his first 2 years off the bench. How can this NOT be a dropoff? I'm glad some people are taking blinders off and realizing he's been consistently bad and having more stretches of "going through the motion" than occasionally lighting it up. His FG% is far worse at .445, nearly losing a full .05 from the last few years. That's his main role too, shooting. Heck, Webber puts up a significantly better percentage at .457 with no leg strength in his jumpers.
That being said, we aren't moving this guy (in a fair deal) till the offseason unless some kind of miracle happens and another GM loses half his brain cells. Peja has one more chance to give a good showing in the playoffs. A lot of fans, including me, can forgive a lackluster regular season if a player increases production when it really counts. I just hope the recent disillusionment doesn't translate to open hating on the court. The fans already made that mistake with Webber, they don't need to do it again.
Of course, I have a hard time imagining anyone booing Peja... the guy will never be controversial. He also gets a free pass on an injury while Webber was hurt far worse and everyone expected him to bring it every night. They also both came back from the latest round of injuries at about the same time and Webber put up TDs. You know why Webber should have some credibility making comments about being soft? It's because he's playing through a painful, career-ending injury every day and still putting up TDs. He's a 44% clutch 3-point shooter. He's doing exactly what he said he would. I may not like him as a person but I have to respect the player. He's got heart. If you guys want to know what more Peja should be bringing every night, just look to #4.
Peja's game starts and ends with shooting because he made it that way. No one's preventing him from hustling or grabbing a rebound. When he's bad, he's really bad because he's taken away his best secondary options for contributing.
P.S.: If anyone is going to try and make more of Peja's back than there actually is, be prepared to not say one bad word about Webber ever again, unless you like being a hypocrit.
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I agree with Brick here. Read newspapers and listen to comments about players around the league. This is a common complaint about many players. Rasheed Wallace is a goood example. When he was at Portland there were continuos comments about not playing to his full potential and lacking fire. A lot of criticism comes from expectations about players.
They'll be the next Jordan etc. Pedja came out of nowhere and was such a talent that people expected him to be a superstar. Well he's not, just a star at best. I think the kings are better off with him. There aren't that many players that can fill his shoes. Also his numbers while down this year are still quite good. As for rebounding, one of the Kings problems(on the offensive end) is they often just chuck up a shot and then take off down the court without seeing if it's going to go in.
They'll be the next Jordan etc. Pedja came out of nowhere and was such a talent that people expected him to be a superstar. Well he's not, just a star at best. I think the kings are better off with him. There aren't that many players that can fill his shoes. Also his numbers while down this year are still quite good. As for rebounding, one of the Kings problems(on the offensive end) is they often just chuck up a shot and then take off down the court without seeing if it's going to go in.
Pejas having a down year. I think last year raised expectations alot, but most of his MVP stats came when CWebb was out, and that was when he needed to step up. With CWebb back, we need more of him on the defensive end, and I think we can all agree he's improved there. It won't show up on the stat sheet, but his D has definitly improved.
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Correy Maggette, Donyell Marshall, Rashard Lewis, Paul Pierce... I can list a couple more but those are who I would really like. (I don't care to work out details on packages to make salaries match because plenty of people have done it in other posts and none would "break the bank")
Also, here's Peja's FG% from last 3 years: .484 , .481 , .480
His rebounding has been consistently higher WITH Webber in previous years as well (like I previously posted).
It's a myth that he plays worse with Webber. Webber is probably one of his best sources for shots.
Also, here's Peja's FG% from last 3 years: .484 , .481 , .480
His rebounding has been consistently higher WITH Webber in previous years as well (like I previously posted).
It's a myth that he plays worse with Webber. Webber is probably one of his best sources for shots.
All great players, but what are the chances their teams will part with them? And if free agents they'll want salary increases. As for Pierce read this article about him The Solo Artist on espn.com. Basically about how he doesn't share the ball. I agree Pejas numbers are down but plenty of other players have had off years and then come back with huge ones. While losing Vlade may seem like a poor excuse, they did play together for years in Serbia and made a great 2 man combo. Webber does feed Peja but in the past there was both Vlade and Cwebb feeding him. Maybe a trade would be good for the team, but I'm not sure I buy it.
Brewer16 said:
Pejas having a down year. I think last year raised expectations alot, but most of his MVP stats came when CWebb was out, and that was when he needed to step up. With CWebb back, we need more of him on the defensive end, and I think we can all agree he's improved there. It won't show up on the stat sheet, but his D has definitly improved.
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Looking at stats for Marshall, Maguette etc, none of these players is all that much better then Peja. Most are about 2 rebounds/game. Some have lower FGP and 3PFGP. Maguette has less steals and twice as many turnovers. Only Pierce has all around better numbers and a reputation as a ball hog. Marshall is older , plays less minutes. But they all get about 2 RPG more than Peja.
Are you forgetting that since then he's played with the team, spoke frequently about "the team," etc.
What gets REALLY old is the need to continue to delve deep back into the past, relatively speaking, to bring up something to continue to use as a reason to bash one of the Kings.
He requested a trade. His request was denied. He didn't refuse to come play. He has played. He has been a part of the team, he has toed the party line.
Maybe I'm just a little more forgiving, but I see no reason to continue to carry a grudge. It happened over the summer. It is over and done. His actions on the court and his subsequent statements have not been like those pillars of basketball Tracy McGrady and Vince Carter, just to name a couple, who continued to whine until they got their way.
Cut him some slack. People who aren't willing to forgive could just make him feel he has no choice but to continue to demand a trade, although it's not what he or we really want.
What gets REALLY old is the need to continue to delve deep back into the past, relatively speaking, to bring up something to continue to use as a reason to bash one of the Kings.
He requested a trade. His request was denied. He didn't refuse to come play. He has played. He has been a part of the team, he has toed the party line.
Maybe I'm just a little more forgiving, but I see no reason to continue to carry a grudge. It happened over the summer. It is over and done. His actions on the court and his subsequent statements have not been like those pillars of basketball Tracy McGrady and Vince Carter, just to name a couple, who continued to whine until they got their way.
Cut him some slack. People who aren't willing to forgive could just make him feel he has no choice but to continue to demand a trade, although it's not what he or we really want.
That's largely a factor of the big minutes he plays. If you take the Qualified filter off and go per 48min, you find Peja languishing at #83 in the league amongst SFs this year, and only at #43 last year (I would say #39 actually if you eliminate 4 guys ahead of him who had very few minutes).
Matty Barnes popped up BTW high on both lists -- #19 this year, #10 (actually #8 if you get rid of the no minutes guys) last year.
Matty Barnes popped up BTW high on both lists -- #19 this year, #10 (actually #8 if you get rid of the no minutes guys) last year.
Agreed. Let it go. Stop trying to see something in Peja's game that verifies your guess at how he feels right now.
The fact is, Peja has never been a good rebounder (except here and there), and Peja has never really dove on the floor for loose balls (except here or there).
Peja has indeed disappeared in mnay games for us in stretches this season. However, I attribute that to both Peja and his teammates for not keeping him invovled, especially whoever is playing the point.
And don't go on about teammates losing confidence in him. Peja was our leading scorer just two games agao...remember? Chris gave Peja the ball the other night to take the shot to tie or win it against the Mavs, and Peja was defended and passed immediately. He could have pulled a "Mobley" or "House" and shot the rock regardless, but he didn't.
Soft?
No will to win for THIS team?
or...
Merely trying to get his team a better shot?
In the end, perhaps Peja really wants to move on to a change of scenery. If so, I see nothing in his GAME that indicates he is slacking or not trying out there.
Perhaps he merely got over-emotional about the tough 2004 season end and Vlade's leaving, and then he made a mistake in what he said about not wanting to play here. If so, a little introspection is called for here from those that would criticize. Have you ever said something in the heat of the moment that you wished you hadn't?
Either way, I don't see where Peja's or Chris' or anyone else's comments to the press several months ago matter in the scheme of things. In the scheme of playing basketball. Just like with statistics, which you can use to show almost anything you care to, you can take one person's comment and turn it into a verification of whatever you choose to believe.
The fact is, Peja has never been a good rebounder (except here and there), and Peja has never really dove on the floor for loose balls (except here or there).
Peja has indeed disappeared in mnay games for us in stretches this season. However, I attribute that to both Peja and his teammates for not keeping him invovled, especially whoever is playing the point.
And don't go on about teammates losing confidence in him. Peja was our leading scorer just two games agao...remember? Chris gave Peja the ball the other night to take the shot to tie or win it against the Mavs, and Peja was defended and passed immediately. He could have pulled a "Mobley" or "House" and shot the rock regardless, but he didn't.
Soft?
No will to win for THIS team?
or...
Merely trying to get his team a better shot?
In the end, perhaps Peja really wants to move on to a change of scenery. If so, I see nothing in his GAME that indicates he is slacking or not trying out there.
Perhaps he merely got over-emotional about the tough 2004 season end and Vlade's leaving, and then he made a mistake in what he said about not wanting to play here. If so, a little introspection is called for here from those that would criticize. Have you ever said something in the heat of the moment that you wished you hadn't?
Either way, I don't see where Peja's or Chris' or anyone else's comments to the press several months ago matter in the scheme of things. In the scheme of playing basketball. Just like with statistics, which you can use to show almost anything you care to, you can take one person's comment and turn it into a verification of whatever you choose to believe.
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Very well said. CWebb's put it all on the line, playing well through a very painful injury. It's funny how the less informed announcers like to pick on Webber, continually pointing out how much explosiveness he's lost and so on. What doesn't get pointed out nearly enough is how amazing it is that he's even playing at all right now, especially at such a high ALL-STAR level. Just look at how well CWebb has played after the microfracture surgery compared to Penny Hardaway.
The hypocrisy for defending Peja's bad games by bringing up his back problems but not doing the same for CWebb is ridiculous. As I previously stated, I don't care what he's been doing for the past 7 seasons, there is no excuse for a player to not give all-out hustle and to dive for loose balls. It's been unacceptable for Peja not to hustle in the past and it's even more unacceptable now. Peja's lack of desire to get alittle dirty is pretty lame. I don't care if he's too "passive" or whatever you want to call it, it's time for him to start being a man.
I've been playing volleyball for the past 12 years at a pretty high level. I don't have any problems with anyone's skill level. It's when I see someone not diving for balls, that's when I take issue and call them out for it.
Larry Bird was right on the money last year when he said Peja needs to develop a post game and become a better dribbler to take his game to the next level. Bird said he always worked on another aspect of his game over each summer to stay one step ahead of the competition. It's a shame Peja doesn't have that same dedication to improve as a player. The guy is purely a gun who gets his shots off of screens, he needs to be more than that.
The most important question is Peja going to disappear again in the playoffs??? Who is that confident that this guy can step it up and on what basis?
The hypocrisy for defending Peja's bad games by bringing up his back problems but not doing the same for CWebb is ridiculous. As I previously stated, I don't care what he's been doing for the past 7 seasons, there is no excuse for a player to not give all-out hustle and to dive for loose balls. It's been unacceptable for Peja not to hustle in the past and it's even more unacceptable now. Peja's lack of desire to get alittle dirty is pretty lame. I don't care if he's too "passive" or whatever you want to call it, it's time for him to start being a man.
I've been playing volleyball for the past 12 years at a pretty high level. I don't have any problems with anyone's skill level. It's when I see someone not diving for balls, that's when I take issue and call them out for it.
Larry Bird was right on the money last year when he said Peja needs to develop a post game and become a better dribbler to take his game to the next level. Bird said he always worked on another aspect of his game over each summer to stay one step ahead of the competition. It's a shame Peja doesn't have that same dedication to improve as a player. The guy is purely a gun who gets his shots off of screens, he needs to be more than that.
The most important question is Peja going to disappear again in the playoffs??? Who is that confident that this guy can step it up and on what basis?
If we make a move, it's not going to be for the same type of player. None of the players I listed plays anything like Peja except for maybe Rashard Lewis (but that's because of the Sonics' system). You have to get out of the mindset that trading for "better" means someone playing Peja's game, but better. There's no one like that for the same amount of money. Plus, who would make that kind of trade anyway? What I'm looking for is a tough, rebounding 3 (preferably with a post game of some kind) who's a scoring threat. I've given up on a sharpshooter for the position.
Maggette and Marshall are at the front of my list because they're the most likely to be traded. I would definitely prefer either Lewis or Pierce but Petrie would have to pull some magic to get them.
Maggette has been struggling with his shot and a shoulder injury. What's impressive about him is that his scoring has actually gone up despite that. This is because he goes to the line, a LOT.... something the Kings aren't too familiar with. He's a slashing, rebounding, take it to them kinda player. I think he's averaging like 8 FT attempts a game.
Marshall, like Brick says, is a rebounding machine. He's lost minutes because the Raptors want to develop some younger talent but his productiveness per minute has not dropped off at all. Plus he averaged 16 pts as a starter so you can't leave him alone on the offense either.
My top pick used to be Lewis before the Sonics suddenly exploded this season. Now, the only way I can see trading for him is if his team fizzles out in the first round. No way we're dealing with a possible rival.
Pierce, like every other superstar on a 1-man team, will of course be accused of being a ballhog. Who's he going to pass to though? An aging Gary Payton? He doesn't even have that hack, Antoine Walker, to lose shots to anymore. Also, I don't understand why he isn't shooting MORE. He's not even averaging 16 shots a game. There's always going to be haters.
In the end, we're gambling on a change in team dynamic. This is not about getting better at what we already do. It's about getting something we lack and trading off something we do well. That's the other big reason why we should do this in the offseason if at all. We need to be sure that what we have doesn't work. Also, Petrie would have more time to jip those other teams out of cash, picks, and whatever else that isn't bolted down in the summer. A rushed trade is usually a bad trade.
Maggette and Marshall are at the front of my list because they're the most likely to be traded. I would definitely prefer either Lewis or Pierce but Petrie would have to pull some magic to get them.
Maggette has been struggling with his shot and a shoulder injury. What's impressive about him is that his scoring has actually gone up despite that. This is because he goes to the line, a LOT.... something the Kings aren't too familiar with. He's a slashing, rebounding, take it to them kinda player. I think he's averaging like 8 FT attempts a game.
Marshall, like Brick says, is a rebounding machine. He's lost minutes because the Raptors want to develop some younger talent but his productiveness per minute has not dropped off at all. Plus he averaged 16 pts as a starter so you can't leave him alone on the offense either.
My top pick used to be Lewis before the Sonics suddenly exploded this season. Now, the only way I can see trading for him is if his team fizzles out in the first round. No way we're dealing with a possible rival.
Pierce, like every other superstar on a 1-man team, will of course be accused of being a ballhog. Who's he going to pass to though? An aging Gary Payton? He doesn't even have that hack, Antoine Walker, to lose shots to anymore. Also, I don't understand why he isn't shooting MORE. He's not even averaging 16 shots a game. There's always going to be haters.
In the end, we're gambling on a change in team dynamic. This is not about getting better at what we already do. It's about getting something we lack and trading off something we do well. That's the other big reason why we should do this in the offseason if at all. We need to be sure that what we have doesn't work. Also, Petrie would have more time to jip those other teams out of cash, picks, and whatever else that isn't bolted down in the summer. A rushed trade is usually a bad trade.
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What you NEED to do is quit making comments that attack him at a personal level.
As far as Pedja's game has gone, it's evolving just like Webber's. Pedja's history with injury is frightening, especially if you know about his leg when he was younger. The fact he's still out there at all means something.
I don't think he's out there to live up to your expectations. And he's not out there to live up to Larry Bird's either.
Pedja is Pedja. He may not ever achieve the status some of us would like, but is that his fault or is it ours for expecting him to do something he simply cannot or will not do?
Bottom line for me is I think he will give it his best shot in the playoffs. I don't think he's dogging it and I don't think he'll give less than the best he can. And that's about all we can ask, isn't it?
As far as Pedja's game has gone, it's evolving just like Webber's. Pedja's history with injury is frightening, especially if you know about his leg when he was younger. The fact he's still out there at all means something.
I don't think he's out there to live up to your expectations. And he's not out there to live up to Larry Bird's either.
Pedja is Pedja. He may not ever achieve the status some of us would like, but is that his fault or is it ours for expecting him to do something he simply cannot or will not do?
Bottom line for me is I think he will give it his best shot in the playoffs. I don't think he's dogging it and I don't think he'll give less than the best he can. And that's about all we can ask, isn't it?
I am stunned and amazed by your great instincts in defending all of the Kings' players from bashers. It may appeat as if you're being incosistent, but I think it is a sign of true appreciation and being a hard core fan.
I'd just like to say that now I feel a little bit ashamed that I was picking on Webber the other day (or rather picking on what he said).
I'd just like to say that now I feel a little bit ashamed that I was picking on Webber the other day (or rather picking on what he said).
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Awwwww; did I hurt Peja's or your own precious feelings? Maybe you and Peja care share some tissues.
I can criticize Peja as much as I want; it's my right. It's like you think he's reading this board and is going to cry himself to sleep if he sees something he doesn't like. It's nice that you don't think he's dogging it, but the Peja I see (I think many others will agree) has shown alot of signs of disinterest this year. His overall FG% has dropped off along with his 3point shooting. Sometimes he's the Peja of old, on other nights he's nowhere to be found. His rebounding has been lackluster at best. The fact that his offense has been very unreliable on top of the fact that he doesn't do other things to make up for it such as hustling is a tremendous cause for concern. It's almost as if he already thinks it's the playoffs.
It doesn't exactly make me feel better that you say he'll "try" his best in the playoffs. Do you or anyone else think that's the best he could do in the playoffs last year?? I expected him to at least resemble himself in some manner, but he couldn't hit a 3 or hardly any shot to save his life.
The bottom line is one way or another, this guy has to start playing better and being more consistent.
You may think I'm not being loyal enough or that I'm being an *** by "personally insulting him" but I simply expect more out of him and the team.
I can criticize Peja as much as I want; it's my right. It's like you think he's reading this board and is going to cry himself to sleep if he sees something he doesn't like. It's nice that you don't think he's dogging it, but the Peja I see (I think many others will agree) has shown alot of signs of disinterest this year. His overall FG% has dropped off along with his 3point shooting. Sometimes he's the Peja of old, on other nights he's nowhere to be found. His rebounding has been lackluster at best. The fact that his offense has been very unreliable on top of the fact that he doesn't do other things to make up for it such as hustling is a tremendous cause for concern. It's almost as if he already thinks it's the playoffs.
It doesn't exactly make me feel better that you say he'll "try" his best in the playoffs. Do you or anyone else think that's the best he could do in the playoffs last year?? I expected him to at least resemble himself in some manner, but he couldn't hit a 3 or hardly any shot to save his life.
The bottom line is one way or another, this guy has to start playing better and being more consistent.
You may think I'm not being loyal enough or that I'm being an *** by "personally insulting him" but I simply expect more out of him and the team.
