Otto Porter Jr

[sactowndog]

they look at his usage rate and that turns them off....discounting how his game is expanding beyond just being a shooter, which was his forte coming out of Florida

It is his usage rate / assist ratio. A hi usage rate when your setting up your teammates like Harden and Lebron is one thing. A high usage rate when you are hunting your own points is another.

 

[206Fan]

I just feel like Wall/Beal have become the East Coast version of Lillard/McCollum in that everybody knows they're super talented and yet nobody takes them seriously in the playoffs. That's a problem. I've been waiting years for them to take the mantle of "best backcourt in the league" yet there's something unmistakably empty about their individual achievements.

Porter is the guy on that team I covet the most because he has the single most elite skill (truly elite 3pt efficiency) along with the least drawbacks. Sure we never see him trying to take over games but that can be a blessing and a curse with other players. He also never shoots Washington out of games or gets overly aggressive and costs them important possessions at crucial times. I suppose it says something that the Wizards fan I know still considers Otto Porter the most expendable of their "big 3" but then you have to figure in all the years we've suffered through watching high-usage one on one scoring guards try to lead this team when what we desperately needed was a competent 3 and D wing who could consistently knock down shots and defend their position in the same game. This is something unique to Kings fans (or at least a subset of fanbase that includes the Kings) and you can trace it all the way back to Pre 2000 when we watched Mitch Richmond absolutely ball out for years on terrible teams with no chance of winning anything because he never had any help. We all have our personal histories and I'm getting rather tired of seeing the Kings franchise hand over the keys to a little guy only to watch him dribble around and launch off balance jumpers for 40 min a game. Don't get me wrong, those guys can be spectacular to watch but give them a $30 million dollar contact and drudge up the worst that the NBA has to offer in wings and big men and the fun starts to feel like a recurring nightmare instead. At least a guy like Porter takes smart shots. I'm cool with Doncic in that role because he knows how to pass and get to the line. He's also a wing so he's got a little more of a chance of imposing his will on the game as a scorer. If you're an average height or below guard you're really only imposing your will on the game right now by launching threes and making them consistently. Plenty of guys get the first part right, very few manage to do both. Which is also why I'm reluctant to package Buddy Hield in any trades right now. If he's going to stick in the 40-45% range from three for his career we've hit the jackpot there and we'd be better served slowly ramping up his attempts per game instead of switching to a guy who's going to score twice as many points on three times as many shots. Efficency is what wins right now not volume (unless you're using elite defense to secure significantly more possessions than your opponent every night).

I can't help but you're massively overrating role players. Yes you need them to win, but they are not guys who you give $30million contracts to. They are not guys who you'd rather take instead of an All-Star because he "defends his position" and takes smarts shot.

but then you have to figure in all the years we've suffered through watching high-usage one on one scoring guards try to lead this team when what we desperately needed was a competent 3 and D wing who could consistently knock down shots and defend their position in the same game.

Not trying to argue, but I'm really not sure who these scoring guards are that try to lead our team. The only ones I can think of are Tyreke(only here for 4 years during our "rebuild") and IT. If you're referring to IT, then I just don't see it.
Are you saying if we replaced IT with someone like Porter Jr, we'd make the playoffs with Cousins-Gay-Porter Jr? Or are you saying if we had a player like Porter Jr instead of Cousins who was a high usage one on one scorer, we'd be better off? Or do you mean Porter Jr instead of Rudy Gay? Because I don't see that at all.

Are you suggesting that Wall-Beal is the problem at Washington? No way. I'll give you a list of reasons that don't include either names.

• Don't have a legitimate #3 scoring option. Praise Porter Jr for whatever you want, but creating his offense leaves a lot to be desired
• Lack of a starting C, Gortat is 34yearsold and he's pretty bad
• Lack of a quality backup PG, Satoransky is more of a SG, and he isn't cutting it. They don't have anyone aside from Wall and Beal who can consistently get inside. Tim Frazier is their true backup "PG"
• Lack of a backup C, Ian Mahimni got his lucky payday in the stupid 2016 offseason
• Gortat being a cancer, not much to say about their drama in DC

Look at the core around Wall-Beal, they just aren't good enough to get anywhere in the playoffs: Porter Jr, Gortat, Markieff, Oubre Jr, Satoransky, Scott, Mahimni, Meeks, and Frazier.
Compare that to the Houston support cast around CP3 and Harden: Capela, Gordon, Anderson, Ariza, Green, Mbah a Moute, Nene, Tucker, and Black.

You're really telling me there's nothing wrong with Washington's support cast? Their 3rd best player would be Houston's 5th best player. Their 4th best player would be Houston's 8th best player. Let that sink in... But yeah, the problem clearly lies between Wall and Beal... no it doesn't.

You're massively overrating the value of role players over All-Stars. I don't know anyone would take Porter Jr over Bradley Beal except Kings fans on this forum.

 

[macadocious]

Give me Porter/Mahimi for WCS/Shump/JJ/Zbo

Currently does not work on the trade machine, but will after July 1. We take on about 20MM in more salary from Zbo to Ian. We fill our SF position with an elite defender and 3p% shooter. We can then draft BPA without worrying about position. He's also only 5 months older than Buddy and younger than Bogi. It fits our timeline.

Fox/Mason
Bogi/Buddy/Temple
Porter/VC?
Giles/Skal
KK/Mahimi

Draft any of Porter Jr., Bridges, Bamba, etc.

 

[kingsboi]

It is his usage rate / assist ratio. A hi usage rate when your setting up your teammates like Harden and Lebron is one thing. A high usage rate when you are hunting your own points is another.

when Wall was out, Beal was distributing the ball quite well and often. When Wall came back, Beal played second fiddle and become more of a scorer which is understandable considering Wall is the better playmaker and ball handler.

 

[Joshoua]

when Wall was out, Beal was distributing the ball quite well and often. When Wall came back, Beal played second fiddle and become more of a scorer which is understandable considering Wall is the better playmaker and ball handler.

What did you want to give up for Beal?

 

[kingsboi]

What did you want to give up for Beal?

I'd give up anything except Fox & Giles, one choice of Willie, Skal, Buddy or Bogs and the draft pick this year ought to be enticing enough for them.

 

[Joshoua]

I'd give up anything except Fox & Giles, one choice of Willie, Skal, Buddy or Bogs and the draft pick this year ought to be enticing enough for them.

So WCS-Skal-Buddy-7th
We probably would still need to take in Mahinmi to outbid other teams

What do we do at PF/C in this situation then do we sign Ariza and Bjlecia.

Also does anyone have Beals stats when Wall was out

 

[Joshoua]

So WCS-Skal-Buddy-7th
We probably would still need to take in Mahinmi to outbid other teams

What do we do at SF/PF in this situation then do we sign Ariza and Bjlecia. Unless we start Bogdan at SF he’d only struggle against Lebron, Giannis, Durant, and Kawhi.

Also does anyone have Beals stats when Wall was out

 

[ESP47]

Without Wall - 20.7ppg 4.4rpg 6apg 3.3tov

His shooting percentages without Wall were basically exactly the same as his year end percentages. Basically his scoring went down by 2ppg and his assists went from 4.5 to 6 but his turnovers went up about the same amount as well so he didn't become a more efficient playmaker without Wall. Just made a few more plays with the same efficiency.

 

[kingsboi]

So WCS-Skal-Buddy-7th
We probably would still need to take in Mahinmi to outbid other teams

What do we do at PF/C in this situation then do we sign Ariza and Bjlecia.

Also does anyone have Beals stats when Wall was out

WCS, Skal & Buddy plus the draft pick is too much, you add one of those three and the draft pick, that's two solid young building blocks to build upon while taking the Mahinmi contract...

 

[Joshoua]

WCS, Skal & Buddy plus the draft pick is too much, you add one of those three and the draft pick, that's two solid young building blocks to build upon while taking the Mahinmi contract...

Beal is an alleged star it would take all 3 plus the pick. Washington isn’t just gonna give Beal or Porter away.

Without Wall - 20.7ppg 4.4rpg 6apg 3.3tov

His shooting percentages without Wall were basically exactly the same as his year end percentages. Basically his scoring went down by 2ppg and his assists went from 4.5 to 6 but his turnovers went up about the same amount as well so he didn't become a more efficient playmaker without Wall. Just made a few more plays with the same efficiency.

Those are pretty good numbers and they were winning during that stretch as well.

 

[bajaden]

I would normally participate in one of these conversations, but the pure lunacy of some of them makes it impossible. It would be like trying to talk to an insane person with logic. Thank God that some of you aren't the Kings GM.. Also, in my humble opinion, Buddy is on the verge of becoming a star in the league, and a player that I believe will be a better player than Beal, who I like by the way. So here's a thought, why don't we leave our acquisitions to the draft, and free agency, and stop trading away the players we have, before we know what we have.

 

[Hoovtrain]

I would normally participate in one of these conversations, but the pure lunacy of some of them makes it impossible. It would be like trying to talk to an insane person with logic. Thank God that some of you aren't the Kings GM.. Also, in my humble opinion, Buddy is on the verge of becoming a star in the league, and a player that I believe will be a better player than Beal, who I like by the way. So here's a thought, why don't we leave our acquisitions to the draft, and free agency, and stop trading away the players we have, before we know what we have.

Wow that’s high praise. I hope it comes to fruition.

 

[hrdboild]

I can't help but you're massively overrating role players. Yes you need them to win, but they are not guys who you give $30million contracts to. They are not guys who you'd rather take instead of an All-Star because he "defends his position" and takes smarts shot.


Not trying to argue, but I'm really not sure who these scoring guards are that try to lead our team. The only ones I can think of are Tyreke(only here for 4 years during our "rebuild") and IT. If you're referring to IT, then I just don't see it.
Are you saying if we replaced IT with someone like Porter Jr, we'd make the playoffs with Cousins-Gay-Porter Jr? Or are you saying if we had a player like Porter Jr instead of Cousins who was a high usage one on one scorer, we'd be better off? Or do you mean Porter Jr instead of Rudy Gay? Because I don't see that at all.

Are you suggesting that Wall-Beal is the problem at Washington? No way. I'll give you a list of reasons that don't include either names.

• Don't have a legitimate #3 scoring option. Praise Porter Jr for whatever you want, but creating his offense leaves a lot to be desired
• Lack of a starting C, Gortat is 34yearsold and he's pretty bad
• Lack of a quality backup PG, Satoransky is more of a SG, and he isn't cutting it. They don't have anyone aside from Wall and Beal who can consistently get inside. Tim Frazier is their true backup "PG"
• Lack of a backup C, Ian Mahimni got his lucky payday in the stupid 2016 offseason
• Gortat being a cancer, not much to say about their drama in DC

Look at the core around Wall-Beal, they just aren't good enough to get anywhere in the playoffs: Porter Jr, Gortat, Markieff, Oubre Jr, Satoransky, Scott, Mahimni, Meeks, and Frazier.
Compare that to the Houston support cast around CP3 and Harden: Capela, Gordon, Anderson, Ariza, Green, Mbah a Moute, Nene, Tucker, and Black.

You're really telling me there's nothing wrong with Washington's support cast? Their 3rd best player would be Houston's 5th best player. Their 4th best player would be Houston's 8th best player. Let that sink in... But yeah, the problem clearly lies between Wall and Beal... no it doesn't.

You're massively overrating the value of role players over All-Stars. I don't know anyone would take Porter Jr over Bradley Beal except Kings fans on this forum.

You're oversimplifying this to the point where it's meaningless. I don't have a clue who Houston's fifth best player is or what that even means. A guy who is a perfect fit next to James Harden and Chris Paul may be a disaster playing with say, Russell Westbrook and Paul George. If you want to make lists of who you think the best players are in the league and rank them head to head have at it but I don't think that has any relevance at all to building a winning team.

Secondly, Otto Porter is not a role-player. The way he's shot the ball the last two seasons is comparable to Hall of Famer Reggie Miller. If that's a role-player, I no longer know what that word means. What do you have to do to qualify as a star? Is it pure scoring volume? Do you need to score out of isolation? Are leading scorers on last place teams helping their teams win more than a player who is one of the top 5 most accurate shooters in the league and the best perimeter defender on his team? I'm more interested in skillsets and how they fit together at this point than percieved "star potential".

The only point I was making bringing up Mitch is that nobody can do it alone. Mitch Richmond was an incredible player... That's why he's got his jersey retired and a spot in the Hall of Fame. If you want to sell out multiple assets to get a Bradley Beal thinking that the rest of the pieces will fall into place once you have your star there's a real life counter-example. Stars get credit for team accomplishments in the media and among the fans because they're the visible leaders on the floor but none of them can do it alone (with the possible exception of LeBron who continues to defy common sense). Do you remember what happened when Bibby became the defacto leading scorer? We were terrible that year. Or when Tyreke Evans became just the 4th player ever to average 20/5/5 in a rookie season (the others being Oscar Robertson, MJ, and LeBron). Multiple championships guaranteed with that company right? Or DeMarcus' many accomplishments. If we already had an elite SF prospect on the team I'd join you in wanting a Bradley Beal trade but as fate would have it, our best talents are at the SG position. Buddy Hield and Bogdan Bogdanovic were pretty great this year. I suppose we could try to trade them for someone else or try to get Beal and draft a SF or something but you're speculating on further moves which may or may not be available to us at that point.

Part of the reason I like the idea of an Otto Porter trade is the opportunity cost. Because Washington is capped out and Wall/Beal are their established stars and Otto Porter is overpaid due to the nature of restricted Free Agency we should be able to get him for less than it would cost to get Beal. Then you factor in how he compliments the players we already have without requiring us to find another trade (which is also problematic if you think like I do that Buddy Hield is just beginning to show his potential because you're now trading him at his current value while whoever gets him will see his value increase). I like to look for trades for players who are undervalued not guys who are at their peak which are going to require you to overpay for past production which won't benefit this team. What if Porter is Harrison Barnes in this scenario and immediately vaults into the top scoring ranks once he's no longer in a situation where he's third banana to two high volume guards?

Also you lose all credibility with me when you bag on Satoransky. Not cutting it? Seriously? He was one of the best backup guards in the league this year. Where does that even come from? Because he had a poor playoff series against Toronto? That was only 6 games.

*I guess the other guards I was thinking of besides Tyreke and IT are Marcus Thornton, Jimmer Fredette, John Salmons, and Nik Stauskas. There was a period of time where we kept using draft resources and Free Agency money to pile on more and more scoring guards when we desperately needed someone who can play defense and a competent starting small forward. Beal is closer to Mitch Richmond than any of those players but as I said above my general point was mostly about team construction. The actual position of it is circumstantial. If we'd had a string of 5 or 6 defensive bigs in a row instead who couldn't score the ball to save their lives and the worst of the worst in guards my attitude toward scoring guards would probably be different. As it happens, we had Olden Polynice and Greg Ostertag and Mikki Moore. We had Donte Green and Andres Nocioni and Travis Outlaw. The last time we had a competent SF we were a playoff team. It's not entirely logical, I'm just acknowledging my own confirmation bias here. Isn't it somewhat reasonable to want to see us try a different solution after years of failing the same way? I mostly became obsessed with defense in the NBA because those Chris Webber led teams got right to the brink of contention but couldn't get all the way and I didn't see any realistic way to improve on the efficiency of that offense. Obviously the NBA has changed a lot since then but there's always a nagging voice in my head somewhere that says offense alone is not going to get it done or the Kings would have won a championship in 2002 or 2003.