Otto Porter Jr

J

Joshoua

All-Star
#1
#1
It’s evident Washington will trade one of Wall, Porter, Beal. Doubt it’s beal Wall contract is too big that leaves Porter who has A good backup behind him.

Porter is an elite 3D player who can be a lot more with opportunity, he averaged 18-7 when Wall was out. At only 24 he hasn’t hit his prime yet and would be a great fit at SF/PF for us. He’s an elite elite shooter last 3 years he’s shot 41, 43, and 36% from 3.

Washington according to John Wall needs a young big to run with them and Gortat is old and his contract is about to be up.

I’d offer them WCS/Skal/JJ
for Porter/Mahinmi

For us we get to keep our pick while getting Porter
Washington would get a young big, project SF, and more importantly save 33million next 2 years.

At draft time I’d still take Bridges at 7 and slide Porter to PF. Everybody is going small so Porter at 4 won’t hurt us only 5-6 teams have PF that would hurt us. Porzingis, maybe Love, Aldridge, Davis, Griffin, and Bagley. That’s not a lot of bad matchups.

Fox-Bogdan-Bridges-Porter-Giles

That lineup has 3 elite shooters and 5 good defenders or projected good defenders. We’d also become one of the fastest teams and athletic, we’d be able to switch a lot of matchups as well. Also with Bogdan, Bridges, and Porter we’d have 3 players we could run off picks which boldes well for half court offense.

But
More than likely if we did the trade we probably draft Bamba or Carter.

Fox/Mason
Bogdan/Buddy
Porter/Hezonja
Giles
Carter/KK
 
kingsboi

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#2
#2
I'd be down for a trade for Otto...I watch every Wizards game and he is the one who never gets enough touches, even though he is the most efficient shooter on the team. As you said, they have Kelly Oubre behind him waiting for a starters role so it would make sense for these two teams to link up and work something out. With a trade of Willie, the Kings could then take Bamba :)
 
upinsmoke

upinsmoke

All-Star
#3
#3
I'm all in for Porter but not at the cost of adding Mahinni to our books. Porter also has a trade kicker so add 15% to his salary and then add Mahinni's albatross.
 
upinsmoke

upinsmoke

All-Star
#8
#8
Joshoua said:
That’s not happening and if we let Mahinmi get in the way of grabbing a 24 year old SF averaging 15-6-2 than we’re in serious trouble
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I can see why on the surface it could seem like a decent deal but your not factoring in leverage and market conditions. Mahinmi contract is real dollars it's not just numbers on trade machine and there are only a few teams who they could even begin to negotiate with. Look I'm all in with exploring Porter...
https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/trading-this-years-1.68985/
But it has to be the right deal at the right price.
 
J

Joshoua

All-Star
#9
#9
upinsmoke said:
I can see why on the surface it could seem like a decent deal but your not factoring in leverage and market conditions. Mahinmi contract is real dollars it's not just numbers on trade machine and there are only a few teams who they could even begin to negotiate with. Look I'm all in with exploring Porter...
https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/trading-this-years-1.68985/
But it has to be the right deal at the right price.
Click to expand...
What’s this imaginary deal that they’re accept without getting the 7th pick or dealing Mahinmi too. They could just keep Porter while we overpay for WCS and continue to look for a phantom SF to fall from the sky
 
itzcoatl

itzcoatl

Bench
#11
#11
I'd love to get Porter without giving up a draft pick. But I'm pretty sure those salaries don't come remotely close to matching. We'd probably need to send them a Zbo or a KK and even Shumpert. Which at that point, they are only really shaving a year off Mahinmi's contract, so it's not such a good deal for them.
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#13
#13
Somebody else can chime in here if I'm wrong but I believe salaries only need to match (to within 125%) if you're over the cap meaning Washington can't take back more than 125% of the salary that they're sending out. On the reverse side, if we're far enough under the cap we can absorb contracts into our cap space without penalty or restriction but that cap space does include cap holds for player or team options (until they're declined) and rookie scale contracts and a minimum for each roster spot up to 12 players.

So theoretically we can take in Otto Porter and Ian Mahimi provided we have at least 42 million in available cap space. The cap is expected to go up to 101 million for next season. We would need Shumpert to opt out and it's still very close at that point because we owe about $5 million combined to Papagiannis, Barnes, and Butler and that counts against the cap. The rookie scale for the #7 pick probably puts this trade out of range even if we send them Cauley-Stein and Justin Jackson. We have to throw in another contract like Frank Mason and/or Skal Labissiere. At that point it's a tougher sell for me. Maybe if they include the #15 pick too.
 
K

kpm308

G-League
#14
#14
If none of Shump, Koufos, or Temple opt out then Kings have about 21 million in cap space. Sending out Willie, Skal, and JJ would make up the difference to allow for absorbing Porter but not Porter and Mahinmi. In fact it would take two of the three player option guys to opt out without some creative cap maneuvering i.e. stretching other guys to make that deal work under the rules
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#15
#15
kpm308 said:
If none of Shump, Koufos, or Temple opt out then Kings have about 21 million in cap space. Sending out Willie, Skal, and JJ would make up the difference to allow for absorbing Porter but not Porter and Mahinmi. In fact it would take two of the three player option guys to opt out without some creative cap maneuvering i.e. stretching other guys to make that deal work under the rules
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Are you accounting for the cap going up next season? I'm rounding a bit here but I've got us with 26 million in cap space if no one opts out (75 million in contracts against a 101 million cap). That becomes 37 if Shumpert opts out. If we stay at pick #7 the first year rookie cap hold is 3.7 million. WCS and Justin Jackson add up to about 8.5 million. So that's 37-3.7+8.5=41.8 million in cap space. Not quite there unless we lose another contract. I didn't see a dollar value for the Nigel Hayes contract though but I would assume it's close to the minimum.
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#16
#16
I am on board with the basic premise of this suggestion provided we can work out the salary details. It's going to partially depend on what happens in the draft, but here's why it works for me:

(1) Mahinmi's ridiculous contract is off the books before we need to pay any of our current rookies. That would not be true of Cauley-Stein but he's going out in this proposed trade (sorry Bajaden, I know you like Willie :)) Essentially he's not going to be an impediment to keeping our core together, and in the mean time he might be a deterrent to some of those overpriced veteran contracts that all NBA GMs seem to love. He's also the bitter pill that might make this trade palatable for the Wizards.

(2) Otto Porter is such a perfect fit for our team that we already made him an offer last summer. He's top 5 in the league in 3pt percentage for the last 2 years now. He's a low usage offensive player which makes him an ideal second or third option scorer. We can quibble about defensive stats but most would agree he's a positive contributor on defense. No he's probably not a max salary player BUT we never sign those kinds of players anyway, we draft them if we're lucky. And similarly to Mahinmi, his 2+1 (player option on year 3) contract is up before we really need to dig into our coffers and start signing our rookie contract guys to big extensions. At that point he will have made 120 million already and might be willing to sign a more team friendly deal to stay on a playoff contender. If we're not that by then we probably won't want him back anyway.

(3) I alluded to this already but I'm okay with overpaying for an elite role-player for three years because we're not signing a superstar in Free Agency anyway and if we do manage to draft one (or if one of the guys we already drafted becomes one) we're way ahead of the game on salaries until they reach their 5th year in the league. Essentially we'd be paying Porter the contract we should be paying Fox or Hield or Giles or Doncic (being optimistic here...) and still coming out ahead because an Otto Porter level player should cost you 18-20 million a year and the rookie contracts we'd be paying the young guys are way under that.

(4) We're already in a place where we don't have enough minutes to distribute amongst our rookies so we should consider consolidating two or three players into one better player. If Washington wants a more athletic frontcourt and relief from salary cap hell we can do that for them and in return we turn Justin Jackson into his best-case scenario ceiling right now and no longer have to decide on what kind of extension to offer Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Cauley-Stein. That also frees up rotation minutes for Giles and we'll actually know exactly what we're getting from our starting SF every night instead of yet another season of musical chairs.

We could go all sorts of ways with the draft pick. Fox, Hield, Bogdanovic, and Porter would all be locked in as big minute rotation guys. We'd have Skal (possibly, unless he's part of the deal) and Giles in the frontcourt. Zach, Kosta, and Garrett are solid enough rotation guys that we shouldn't feel like we have any immediate holes to plug in the lineup. That frees us up to go BPA all the way in the draft (which we should be doing anyway...). Get one of the defensive bigs and we're okay because we're already an elite shooting team with Hield, Porter, and Bogdanovic. Get another wing and we're fine because Bogdan can play some PG and most of the wings in the draft can also play at multiple positions. Because Porter is a full-size wing who can shoot and defend he'll fit with pretty much anyone we draft.

I did mention at the beginning that my approval of the trade would partially depend on what we do in the draft. What I meant by that is that Porter and Mahinmi wipe out any chance we have of pursuing free agents for the next 2 years and potentially the next 3 years. If we can't draft someone that has a decent shot at developing into either a first option scoring threat or an elite defender I'd be a little wary of committing to a course of action that puts us on a treadmill of mediocrity we can't recover from. I have enough faith in Fox, Hield, and Bogdanovic based on what we saw this season that I don't think this will be a problem. It would help if we nailed the draft pick though.
 
LPKingsFan

LPKingsFan

All-Star
#17
#17
hrdboild said:
Are you accounting for the cap going up next season? I'm rounding a bit here but I've got us with 26 million in cap space if no one opts out (75 million in contracts against a 101 million cap). That becomes 37 if Shumpert opts out. If we stay at pick #7 the first year rookie cap hold is 3.7 million. WCS and Justin Jackson add up to about 8.5 million. So that's 37-3.7+8.5=41.8 million in cap space. Not quite there unless we lose another contract. I didn't see a dollar value for the Nigel Hayes contract though but I would assume it's close to the minimum.
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Hoops rumors has Kings cap space at $21.6 million, assuming no one opts out: https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2018/04/2018-nba-offseason-salary-cap-digest-sacramento-kings.html Maybe you're missing the waived players that still count against the cap?
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#18
#18
LPKingsFan said:
Hoops rumors has Kings cap space at $21.6 million, assuming no one opts out: https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2018/04/2018-nba-offseason-salary-cap-digest-sacramento-kings.html Maybe you're missing the waived players that still count against the cap?
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No, I had those included too. The salary numbers on that page are the same ones I used (75 million total including the buyouts) but I forgot that the cap hold is actually 120% of the rookie wage scale so thats 3.7 * 1.2 which is 4.4 million if we stay at #7. I'm also assuming we would waive our rights to Vince Carter, Bruno Caboclo, and Jakarr Sampson to make the trade work. We could always add Sampson or Caboclo later on minimum deals if we wanted to. That puts us at exactly 21.6 million in cap space. I was wrong about WCS and JJ adding up to 8.5 million though -- it's actually 7.5 million so we're up to 40.1 million if Shumpert opts out and we trade WCS and JJ (21.6+7.5+11). Adding Frank Mason to the deal almost gets us there (41.5) but if we move up in the lottery we need to lose someone else. And we're also losing a roster spot by sending 3 players and only taking back 2 so you have to add in another cap hold there (the rookie minimum or about 850,000 I believe for every player we are under the 12 man minimum).

So yeah, I guess ultimately I end up in the same place you are on the likelihood of the trade being legal -- realistically, we probably need two guys to opt out or we need to make a smaller move first that clears 2-3 million more to get us enough wiggle room.
 
S

sactowndog

All-Star
#19
#19
hrdboild said:
No, I had those included too. The salary numbers on that page are the same ones I used (75 million total including the buyouts) but I forgot that the cap hold is actually 120% of the rookie wage scale so thats 3.7 * 1.2 which is 4.4 million if we stay at #7. I'm also assuming we would waive our rights to Vince Carter, Bruno Caboclo, and Jakarr Sampson to make the trade work. We could always add Sampson or Caboclo later on minimum deals if we wanted to. That puts us at exactly 21.6 million in cap space. I was wrong about WCS and JJ adding up to 8.5 million though -- it's actually 7.5 million so we're up to 40.1 million if Shumpert opts out and we trade WCS and JJ (21.6+7.5+11). Adding Frank Mason to the deal almost gets us there (41.5) but if we move up in the lottery we need to lose someone else. And we're also losing a roster spot by sending 3 players and only taking back 2 so you have to add in another cap hold there (the rookie minimum or about 850,000 I believe for every player we are under the 12 man minimum).

So yeah, I guess ultimately I end up in the same place you are on the likelihood of the trade being legal -- realistically, we probably need two guys to opt out or we need to make a smaller move first that clears 2-3 million more to get us enough wiggle room.
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Or you just add one of our many one year contracts as filler.
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#21
#21
It would depend on FA for me. Both of them will cost a little under $42million. If we could get TWO players of this list: Aaron Gordon, Zach LaVine, Jusuf Nurkic, Julius Randle, or Jabari Parker for that price, I would much rather spend that money on FA.

Then I would just draft a wing at #7.

I'm not a fan of that Mahimni contract. 2 years is still 2 years, and I think Otto Porter Jr is massively overpaid. He's a high level role player, and that's it. If the Wizards weren't in their own little cap hell(Mahimni and Gortat contracts), then they probably would've let him go to the Nets for the max. He's much better than Allen Crabbe, but it's essentially the same scenario Portland faced.
 
J

Joshoua

All-Star
#22
#22
206Fan said:
It would depend on FA for me. Both of them will cost a little under $42million. If we could get TWO players of this list: Aaron Gordon, Zach LaVine, Jusuf Nurkic, Julius Randle, or Jabari Parker for that price, I would much rather spend that money on FA.

Then I would just draft a wing at #7.

I'm not a fan of that Mahimni contract. 2 years is still 2 years, and I think Otto Porter Jr is massively overpaid. He's a high level role player, and that's it. If the Wizards weren't in their own little cap hell(Mahimni and Gortat contracts), then they probably would've let him go to the Nets for the max. He's much better than Allen Crabbe, but it's essentially the same scenario Portland faced.
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Absolutey not we better not even sit down with LaVine or Nurkic
 
kingsfan1984

kingsfan1984

Starter
#23
#23
I think we need to know what other team would be competing against to get Porter?

If no one wants to give up anything because or Porter's contract, then maybe WCS would be enough for Porter PLUS there #15 haha I can dream.

I think more likely Washington would be looking to deal either Wall or Beal. Wall, IMO is very overrated and plays the sort of game that is akin to any post up oriented dinosaur offense. Is Wall a worse 3pt shooter than Ronda even? Just as bad as Westbrook. That is HUGE in todays game. Their teams will always be 1 to 2 tiera below the top teams. I bet the Wiz will look to trade Wall and get something back.

OR, Washington might try to trade their 15th to unload Mahini

Would we take on Mahini for the 15th? Could be Sexton, Knox, Miles, Carter or Shai there
 
J

Joshoua

All-Star
#24
#24
If we’re not taking on Mahinmi contract then we’d probably have to give up 7 and get 15 back

WCS-7
For
Porter-15

I don’t think Bridges will be as good as Porter do trading down isn’t that bad. Take Jontay Porter at 15 who we groom for 2-3 years and resign KK
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#25
#25
Joshoua said:
Absolutey not we better not even sit down with LaVine or Nurkic
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I'm a big fan of both. I think LaVine is better than both Bogdan and Buddy. He's also a year younger than Buddy. I also think he has potential to be a franchise player based on what we saw in the 2016-17 season. Smaller sample size of only 47 games, but I think his athleticism would fit right next to Fox. He can handle the ball a bit, so it would help give Fox a secondary handler. I think a Fox/LaVine backcourt would be dangerous. Defense does leaves some question marks though. His injury could also leave some concerns, although it did look like his athleticism is back.

Nurkic is extremely underrated and he's only 23yearsold. I see him as a 2-way center who can expand his offensive game. Here's his numbers this season.

26.4mins: 14.3pts 9rebs 1.4blks 0.8stls 1.8asts 2.3tos on 50.5/0/63. I usually dislike using per36 numbers, but I think it's ok in this scenario. I doubt he'd be able to keep up the offensive production, but here's how they would like:

per36: 19.5pts 12.2rebs 1.9blks 2.5asts
 
J

Joshoua

All-Star
#26
#26
206Fan said:
I'm a big fan of both. I think LaVine is better than both Bogdan and Buddy. He's also a year younger than Buddy. I also think he has potential to be a franchise player based on what we saw in the 2016-17 season. Smaller sample size of only 47 games, but I think his athleticism would fit right next to Fox. He can handle the ball a bit, so it would help give Fox a secondary handler. I think a Fox/LaVine backcourt would be dangerous. Defense does leaves some question marks though. His injury could also leave some concerns, although it did look like his athleticism is back.

Nurkic is extremely underrated and he's only 23yearsold. I see him as a 2-way center who can expand his offensive game. Here's his numbers this season.

26.4mins: 14.3pts 9rebs 1.4blks 0.8stls 1.8asts 2.3tos on 50.5/0/63. I usually dislike using per36 numbers, but I think it's ok in this scenario. I doubt he'd be able to keep up the offensive production, but here's how they would like:

per36: 19.5pts 12.2rebs 1.9blks 2.5asts
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Nurkic got ate alive in the post season Rather keep WCS/Giles than go down that road. You can’t win with centers like that

LaVine is a joke defender who is also a chucked and looks for his shot and his shot only. Bulls fans don’t even like the guy
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#27
#27
206Fan said:
It would depend on FA for me. Both of them will cost a little under $42million. If we could get TWO players of this list: Aaron Gordon, Zach LaVine, Jusuf Nurkic, Julius Randle, or Jabari Parker for that price, I would much rather spend that money on FA.

Then I would just draft a wing at #7.

I'm not a fan of that Mahimni contract. 2 years is still 2 years, and I think Otto Porter Jr is massively overpaid. He's a high level role player, and that's it. If the Wizards weren't in their own little cap hell(Mahimni and Gortat contracts), then they probably would've let him go to the Nets for the max. He's much better than Allen Crabbe, but it's essentially the same scenario Portland faced.
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Even with a whole slew of salary related hoops to jump through, I think this Porter trade is still more likely than even one of the guys you listed signing with us as a free agent. All of them are restricted status for one thing. And even if we give them an offer so big that their current team doesn't want to match (which is probably unwise) they're not picking us. We might have a shot at Hezonja (unrestricted, some connection to Peja) and we might have a shot at somebody who wants a short-term contract to try and rebuild value (Greg Monroe maybe?) but those options aren't going to be reasons to turn down Otto Porter.

If we do want this to happen though, I'm pretty sure Mahinmi has to be included. Porter is a good player and they're a playoff team with their current group so there must be a pretty compelling reason (like 40 million off the salary cap) for them to make a deal. Grunfeld has to feel like he can get far enough under the cap to potentially sign an impact player so they don't lose ground. Even so, I'm sure his preference would be to trade for an established player rather than cap space because even a lopsided trade like this one only puts them 10 million under the cap for next year. They need to make changes somehow but it's hard to see where they can realistically go from where they are now.
 
upinsmoke

upinsmoke

All-Star
#28
#28
hrdboild said:
Even with a whole slew of salary related hoops to jump through, I think this Porter trade is still more likely than even one of the guys you listed signing with us as a free agent. All of them are restricted status for one thing. And even if we give them an offer so big that their current team doesn't want to match (which is probably unwise) they're not picking us. We might have a shot at Hezonja (unrestricted, some connection to Peja) and we might have a shot at somebody who wants a short-term contract to try and rebuild value (Greg Monroe maybe?) but those options aren't going to be reasons to turn down Otto Porter.

If we do want this to happen though, I'm pretty sure Mahinmi has to be included. Porter is a good player and they're a playoff team with their current group so there must be a pretty compelling reason (like 40 million off the salary cap) for them to make a deal. Grunfeld has to feel like he can get far enough under the cap to potentially sign an impact player so they don't lose ground. Even so, I'm sure his preference would be to trade for an established player rather than cap space because even a lopsided trade like this one only puts them 10 million under the cap for next year. They need to make changes somehow but it's hard to see where they can realistically go from where they are now.
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If they want to include Mahinmi with Porter in exchange for expirings I don't include our pick.
 
kingsfan1984

kingsfan1984

Starter
#29
#29
Baynes from Celtics is a nice fit as a big strong defensive and rebounding defender, with ability to knock down that corner 3. Ainge has sone a masterful job with the celtics
 
kingsfan1984

kingsfan1984

Starter
#30
#30
206Fan said:
I'm a big fan of both. I think LaVine is better than both Bogdan and Buddy. He's also a year younger than Buddy. I also think he has potential to be a franchise player based on what we saw in the 2016-17 season. Smaller sample size of only 47 games, but I think his athleticism would fit right next to Fox. He can handle the ball a bit, so it would help give Fox a secondary handler. I think a Fox/LaVine backcourt would be dangerous. Defense does leaves some question marks though. His injury could also leave some concerns, although it did look like his athleticism is back.

Nurkic is extremely underrated and he's only 23yearsold. I see him as a 2-way center who can expand his offensive game. Here's his numbers this season.

26.4mins: 14.3pts 9rebs 1.4blks 0.8stls 1.8asts 2.3tos on 50.5/0/63. I usually dislike using per36 numbers, but I think it's ok in this scenario. I doubt he'd be able to keep up the offensive production, but here's how they would like:

per36: 19.5pts 12.2rebs 1.9blks 2.5asts
Click to expand...
Biggest issue with Lavine is his BBIQ seems about as high as my Cat.
 
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