One more move

[Troy]

Very true...but is that player out there....what other troubled, pyshotic can we bring in...Rodman said he is availiable...

That is funny, but I do love Rodman. I'm from Chicago and I can only try to recall all the anticts that Rodman brought. He also brough extreme effort and was a rebounding machine. I don't know how he would do though with his age, it would be an improvement though for a team like the Kings. I loved how he would get in people's heads on opposing teams and have his way with them physically and mentally. Rodman was awesome, a true entertainer both on and off the court. You will be missed in my book.

 

[Troy]

Very true...but is that player out there....what other troubled, pyshotic can we bring in...Rodman said he is availiable...

Rodman was a true class act. I loved how he would get in opponents heads and dominate them physically and mentally. He was a rebounding machine. I don't know what condition he is in, but either way I think he would be a great improvement on our team and show guys how it's done. I had the great privelege of watching the Bulls in their hay day and Rodman was definately a piece of the puzzle. He had his good and bad, but brought all he had and then some on the court. We would have loved him here in Sacto and still might. What is up to anyways these days???

 

[Troy]

I like Bryan Skinner but he's still only 6'9", big enough to play against the opposition's reserves but not start against guys 7'2" - 7'4".

Very true, I like Skinner, but we need someone to give Shaq and other big guys a fit. I love how Skinner has done in limited minutes, hopefully we will see a lot more of him with trading Corliss and Kenny. Like I've been saying, as well as other here, unless we start Kenny long term, then trade him, he isn't good off the bench either on purpose or what.

 

[SkinnerBox]

Here's a semi-important difference:

Ben Wallace - 2004-2005 Defensive Player of the Year
Brian Skinner - not so much

Artest = Defensive player of the year. We've already got one, you want two? Come on, Skinner is a Ben Wallace-type player who simply doesn't get enough minutes to make an impact. He is actually STONRGER than big ben. I'm just hoping that for some reason with Artest here we see a little more of him. Peja needed as many offensive facilitators as he could get on the court at a time, but Artest doesnt. That should allow Brad to sit and not have our offense dissapapear.

EDIT: Now THIS is a physical defensive lineup the Kings haven't been able to field in YEARS:

PG - Hart
SG - Wells
SF - Artest
PF - Corliss
C - Skinner

Not the tallest, but no one is getting to the hoop without getting injured

 

[nbrans]

Artest = Defensive player of the year. We've already got one, you want two? Come on, Skinner is a Ben Wallace-type player who simply doesn't get enough minutes to make an impact. He is actually STONRGER than big ben. I'm just hoping that for some reason with Artest here we see a little more of him. Peja needed as many offensive facilitators as he could get on the court at a time, but Artest doesnt. That should allow Brad to sit and not have our offense dissapapear.

EDIT: Now THIS is a physical defensive lineup the Kings haven't been able to field in YEARS:

PG - Hart
SG - Wells
SF - Artest
PF - Corliss
C - Skinner

Not the tallest, but no one is getting to the hoop without getting injured

Just because they're both undersized centers doesn't mean you can even come close to comparing the two. It's like comparing Kenny Thomas to Elton Brand. Yeah. They're both undersized power forwards. But there's one big difference: Elton Brand is a thousand times better. Same with Ben Wallace vs. Skinner.

The fact is that while Skinner has shown some good shotblocking ability he's not that great of a defender. He doesn't have the leaping ability or the long arms of Ben Wallace and thus can't make up for being undersized in the Center spot. He's really a power forward, but because we don't have a backup center on the roster he's been pressed into service as a Center. As a full-time Center he might improve help defense but he'd get killed by good centers.

I'd be interested to see how Skinner worked while playing PF along with Brad at Center -- that might be the type of Skinner solution that would work. But then, we'd need an actual backup Center.

P.S. And yes, I'd want two defensive players of the year! That's a no-brainer. Unfortunately I don't think the Kings could get Ben Wallace.

 

[rexb_kings]

when the Peja/Artest deal first went down, i initially thought the Heat might offer some trades for Peja. My first thought was a trade for Mourning/Posey in return. Peja could have been perfect for Miami and it would perfectly balance their team compared to what they have now. Although i'm not sure if the salaries would work.

i agree that we need a big guy that can rebound and block shots but who else is available? and i don't agree that Kings have to trade Miller for some obvious reason because of the Princeton thing. if Kings were to look for a big guy SAR might be the one on the move here and one of the Philly 3.

Ben Wallace would have been sooo perfect..but it's out the question maybe just maybe next season. another one is Mourning. he's old i know but he still can play as evident when Shaq was down. A Marcus Camby would have been nice too except that Denver wouldn't think of trading him and is ofcourse injury prone. Darko would be a nice prospect just because he is young with skills. I believe some of the poster here prefer a much younger player that had experience already that's why names like Chandler,Nene,Dalembert came up.

well right now i don't see any one we can get in the near future and might as well see how this current team play out. i hoping Artest can lead this team in terms of toughness and hustle. if he can bring his intensity and grit to Bmiller,SAR and Bibby who knows what this current team can bring into. i feel Kings can make a run and be in the playoffs this year but will surely need that extra piece (of the puzzle?) to really contend for the ring. hopefully by next season.

ohh...please...please... Garnett anyone?

 

[SkinnerBox]

Just because they're both undersized centers doesn't mean you can even come close to comparing the two. It's like comparing Kenny Thomas to Elton Brand. Yeah. They're both undersized power forwards. But there's one big difference: Elton Brand is a thousand times better. Same with Ben Wallace vs. Skinner.

Thats why Thomas and Skinner are both on our bench (Well, we'll see about Thomas). Think of them as the bench Brand and Wallace

The fact is that while Skinner has shown some good shotblocking ability he's not that great of a defender. He doesn't have the leaping ability or the long arms of Ben Wallace and thus can't make up for being undersized in the Center spot. He's really a power forward, but because we don't have a backup center on the roster he's been pressed into service as a Center. As a full-time Center he might improve help defense but he'd get killed by good centers.

No one is saying he should start. I'm just saying that he already has some of the things we are looking for in power, shotblocking and defensive presence. I think we should see how our defense looks with Artest in there and Skinner with biggger minutes before we look at trading in Brad and pieces for a 7' defensive starting center.

 

[Troy]

Here's mine:

Miller/Webber/Artest/Wells/Bibby.

Why did we trade Webber anyways??? We should have traded Peja all along and kept Webber. Although he isn't what he used to be before the injury, he does everything he can and makes the players around him better. We want to take back our trade Philly, C-Webb was a loaner for you, now give him back.

 

[tradepeja]

all this trading Brad and/or Bibby is nonsense (unless its to pick up KG). Unless you want to go into FULL rebuild mode where we lose 50-60 games a year, we need some type of offense. If we got rid of either or both of them we'd have a starting line-up of non-scorers. Bibby and Miller play too well together. SAR has been great, but he's the one to move to get a defense big man. Or, better yet, moving some or all of the Philly 3.

 

[mbkings10]

It is interesting to hear that some would want to trade Garcia especially in a package deal for somebody like Wilcox. I personally really like Garcia, sure he makes his share of mistakes, but he plays hard on both sides of the floor. I think he can become a Tayshaun Prince type of player for us, he has those long arms and quickness to harass opposing players on defense and his shooting is improving. Unless it is part of a package for a really good player, I think we should hold on to Garcia.

 

[tradepeja]

me too, we should hold on to our young talent for all its worth...i'd hate to see Garcia go just as trade filler a la Matt Barnes

there's definitely pieces on this team (Skinner, Corliss, Hart, KT, Sampson, SAR) that can and should be moved and teams would bite for (except maybe KT with his huge contract...unless we'll dealing him for another overpaid guy i.e. Tyson Chandler)

 

[nbrans]

It is interesting to hear that some would want to trade Garcia especially in a package deal for somebody like Wilcox. I personally really like Garcia, sure he makes his share of mistakes, but he plays hard on both sides of the floor. I think he can become a Tayshaun Prince type of player for us, he has those long arms and quickness to harass opposing players on defense and his shooting is improving. Unless it is part of a package for a really good player, I think we should hold on to Garcia.

I don't know if it's as much a reflection on Garcia as it is a recognition that the Kings are pretty well set at the 2/3 position with Bonzi (assuming he stays, I have my doubts), Artest, Martin and Corliss, and then going into a draft which is stocked to the max with 2/3s. Garcia has value, and he's probably not going to have minutes to grow with the Kings, hence him being a logical trade piece.

 

[mbkings10]

I don't know if it's as much a reflection on Garcia as it is a recognition that the Kings are pretty well set at the 2/3 position with Bonzi (assuming he stays, I have my doubts), Artest, Martin and Corliss, and then going into a draft which is stocked to the max with 2/3s. Garcia has value, and he's probably not going to have minutes to grow with the Kings, hence him being a logical trade piece.

True, but that is if the Kings decide to resign Bonzi in the offseason and if Artest can remain sane. Plus with all the injury problems we have had in the past it is nice to have a few players off the bench that can come in and contribute.

 

[MrBiggs]

Bibby/Skinner/Rahim for Kenyon Martin/Andre Miller/Veshon Leonard

Martin's been dissapointing for Denver but his shot blocking ability would look good next to #52. Kenyon's post defense combined with Brads offensive abilities could bring this Sacramento team to another level. Andre is the antithesis of Mike. He's a PG who can create, defend, and rebound. Denver wants to trade Leonard and he'd be that spot up 3 point shooter we need.

If I'm GM, that's the kind of move I'm lookin for.

C-Miller/Martin
PF-Martin/Thomas/Corliss
SF-Artest/Garcia/Corliss
SG-Bonzi/Kev Martin
PG-Andre Miller/Garcia/Hart

 

[tradepeja]

if, in fact, we do resign Bonzi in the offseason, Garcia is moveable...as it stands now we need to keep him under lock in regards to the future

 

[tradepeja]

Bibby/Skinner/Rahim for Kenyon Martin/Andre Miller/Veshon Leonard

Martin's been dissapointing for Denver but his shot blocking ability would look good next to #52. Kenyon's post defense combined with Brads offensive abilities could bring this Sacramento team to another level. Andre is the antithesis of Mike. He's a PG who can create, defend, and rebound. Denver wants to trade Leonard and he'd be that spot up 3 point shooter we need.

If I'm GM, that's the kind of move I'm lookin for.

C-Miller/Martin
PF-Martin/Thomas/Corliss
SF-Artest/Garcia/Corliss
SG-Bonzi/Kev Martin
PG-Andre Miller/Garcia/Hart

wow, that is an extremely off-balanced trade...we trade 3 guys in their prime for a good point guard, a crappy SG who shouldn't be int he league anymore, and one of the most overrated players ever

no way, no how

 

[MrBiggs]

wow, that is an extremely off-balanced trade...we trade 3 guys in their prime for a good point guard, a crappy SG who shouldn't be int he league anymore, and one of the most overrated players ever

no way, no how

Skinner's a bench warmer who gets no play (though he deserves it), Bibby's defense is horrendous and his contract is inflated, and I'd take Kenyon Martin over Shareef anyday.

Leonard is a throw-in as his contract is up at the end of the year.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Like it or not, Bibby/Miller/Artest is the core now. Bibby and Miller have demonstrated the ability to play at a high level together, and Miller's also our best choice to keep Artest from blowing up. Artest may light a defensive fire under Brad too.

I'd like to see SAR play with Artest before counting him out, but I'd surely move him before the above three.

 

[PFFFT!!]

Like it or not, Bibby/Miller/Artest is the core now. Bibby and Miller have demonstrated the ability to play at a high level together, and Miller's also our best choice to keep Artest from blowing up. Artest may light a defensive fire under Brad too.

I'd like to see SAR play with Artest before counting him out, but I'd surely move him before the above three.

I think all 5 starters are good right now. We need a bench spark. Only bench players I would keep are Martin and Francisco. Everyone else can be traded. I wish we can get a PG sparkplug. I'd give up KT and Hart for a PG/6th man. Bibby plays way too many minutes (#11 in NBA) and thats not boding well for injury probabilities.

 

[tradepeja]

Skinner's a bench warmer who gets no play (though he deserves it), Bibby's defense is horrendous and his contract is inflated, and I'd take Kenyon Martin over Shareef anyday.

Leonard is a throw-in as his contract is up at the end of the year.

hey, if we wanna talk about inflated contracts, lets talk about Kenyon Martin. The only thing that guy can do is dunk ont he fast break and he gets paid $10.6 million to do it. Sure, Bibby gets paid the same about but there's one difference, bad defense or not, he is a premier player in this league (or at least a premier PG). Kenyon Martin, however is not.

Either way, we already have one K-Mart (who is turning out to be a more skilled and versatile player than the "real" K-Mart). We don't need another.

 

[DaMan]

all this trading Brad and/or Bibby is nonsense (unless its to pick up KG). Unless you want to go into FULL rebuild mode where we lose 50-60 games a year, we need some type of offense. If we got rid of either or both of them we'd have a starting line-up of non-scorers. Bibby and Miller play too well together. SAR has been great, but he's the one to move to get a defense big man. Or, better yet, moving some or all of the Philly 3.

We could live without Brad, we might not be able to live with out bibby, it depends. This lineup is pretty good offence team even if they lose brad or bibby, maybe even both. Sar and Artest are more then capable of scoring 20 plus. And wells could give u 15 to 20 on many nights.

The only time i would trade bibby and brad togetter is if we do get a pure point guard and a def minded center or for KG in return. But other then that i would not even consider doing a trade getting rid of both, espeailty bibby with the artest trade going down. But i am more then willing to trade Brad for a def minded center.

 

[DaMan]

hey, if we wanna talk about inflated contracts, lets talk about Kenyon Martin. The only thing that guy can do is dunk ont he fast break and he gets paid $10.6 million to do it. Sure, Bibby gets paid the same about but there's one difference, bad defense or not, he is a premier player in this league (or at least a premier PG). Kenyon Martin, however is not.

Either way, we already have one K-Mart (who is turning out to be a more skilled and versatile player than the "real" K-Mart). We don't need another.

I really hate k-mart but Don't underrate his talent, yea he is a great dunker and fastbreak player. But when healthy he is a suburb defence player with a decent off game. He is a better vison of a tyson chandler, that could run.

 

[Bricklayer]

I'm really not interested in trading Garcia or Kevin at this point unless we got back something pretty nifty. But there is a looming minutes crunch there that is going to have to be resolved somehow. There are minutes for any three of Artest, Bonzi, Kevin, Cisco. But that 4th guy is going to be warming the bench unless Rick goes completely nuts and decides to move Artest to PF and have Cisco play backup PG.

Kind of a tough situation:

1) REALLY like the potential of an incredibly tough Bonzi/Artest OG/SF combo. Nobody in the league at those positions will want to see those two showing up. But the flipside is those two guys could also implode and take down the whole team ala Portland.
2) Kevin has shown flashes of being a real contributor, maybe even a starter in this league. On the other hand he seems to have mental issues, expecially off the bench, where he slips into passivity and ineffectiveness.
3) Cisco has the versatility to be a good/perfect swingman off the bench behind Artest/Bonzi. But only if he can learn how to shoot. And he hasn't shown the offensive potential of Martin and may be more of a roleplayer.

Who's the odd man out + best trading piece? Maybe Kevin? Might be Bonzi, but I really want to see what he and Artest can accomplish together before we wouls ship him out.

 

[whozit]

I'm really not interested in trading Garcia or Kevin at this point unless we got back something pretty nifty. But there is a looming minutes crunch there that is going to have to be resolved somehow. There are minutes for any three of Artest, Bonzi, Kevin, Cisco. But that 4th guy is going to be warming the bench unless Rick goes completely nuts and decides to move Artest to PF and have Cisco play backup PG.

Kind of a tough situation:

1) REALLY like the potential of an incredibly tough Bonzi/Artest OG/SF combo. Nobody in the league at those positions will want to see those two showing up. But the flipside is those two guys could also implode and take down the whole team ala Portland.
2) Kevin has shown flashes of being a real contributor, maybe even a starter in this league. On the other hand he seems to have mental issues, expecially off the bench, where he slips into passivity and ineffectiveness.
3) Cisco has the versatility to be a good/perfect swingman off the bench behind Artest/Bonzi. But only if he can learn how to shoot. And he hasn't shown the offensive potential of Martin and may be more of a roleplayer.

Who's the odd man out + best trading piece? Maybe Kevin? Might be Bonzi, but I really want to see what he and Artest can accomplish together before we wouls ship him out.

I'm not sure that there won't be minutes (not many for two of them) for all four. Kevin backing up Bonzi and Cisco backing up Artest. I would hate to give either of the youngsters up not knowing the fate of Bonzi this off-season. With Adelman being forced to play them, when they go back to the bench there may actually be a bench.

One move I could see happening is hard to swallow contract-wise. I could see them trading Skinner (who hasn't been getting minutes) for the very unfriendly contract of Mark Blount. A meddling big who shouldn't get in the way of the offense and because of that might get minutes.

 

[Venom]

Actually, sliding Cisco over to PG isn't such a bad idea. He can handle well enought to intiate the offense. He'll get beat to the lane by most PGs, but that's no different from Bibby.

 

[Bricklayer]

I'm not sure that there won't be minutes (not many for two of them) for all four. Kevin backing up Bonzi and Cisco backing up Artest. I would hate to give either of the youngsters up not knowing the fate of Bonzi this off-season. With Adelman being forced to play them, when they go back to the bench there may actually be a bench.

One move I could see happening is hard to swallow contract-wise. I could see them trading Skinner (who hasn't been getting minutes) for the very unfriendly contract of Mark Blount. A meddling big who shouldn't get in the way of the offense and because of that might get minutes.

Having a backup OG and a bacup SF really doesn't work unless you have weak starters ahead of them to free up lots of minutes. But in our situation just kind of means that neither guy gets into a real rhtyhm and both end up getting 10-12 min a night, which isn't enough for anybody to do anything. Just kind of a waste. Gotta kind of pick you best 8 + go with it. Unfortunately that means somebody gets squeezed if you have more than 3 swingmen types. We've hitched our boat to Artest. And I think Cisco can do well as a versatile bench type. That kind of leaves it as a Bonzi or Kevin choice at OG. And the only fair thing to do with the other guy is trade him someplace where he can play rather than try to pin him to the bench (and obviously Bonzi would not accept that anyway). Because of the Bonzi contract status, I could see us trying to move him too. But I just think that would be foolish given the Bonzi/Artest combo's potential.

Only way around that I can see is if we kept the kids around just in case either Bonzi or Artest went nuclear. Could make sense for us, but meanwhile you have an unhappy frustrated kid wasting away on the bench waiting for something to go wrong.

 

[nbrans]

Having a backup OG and a bacup SF really doesn't work unless you have weak starters ahead of them to free up lots of minutes. But in our situation just kind of means that neither guy gets into a real rhtyhm and both end up getting 10-12 min a night, which isn't enough for anybody to do anything. Just kind of a waste. Gotta kind of pick you best 8 + go with it. Unfortunately that means somebody gets squeezed if you have more than 3 swingmen types. We've hitched our boat to Artest. And I think Cisco can do well as a versatile bench type. That kind of leaves it as a Bonzi or Kevin choice at OG. And the only fair thing to do with the other guy is trade him someplace where he can play rather than try to pin him to the bench (and obviously Bonzi would not accept that anyway). Because of the Bonzi contract status, I could see us trying to move him too. But I just think that would be foolish given the Bonzi/Artest combo's potential.

Only way around that I can see is if we kept the kids around just in case either Bonzi or Artest went nuclear. Could make sense for us, but meanwhile you have an unhappy frustrated kid wasting away on the bench waiting for something to go wrong.

Definitely agree with this assessment.

If you're Petrie and the Maloofs, and there are other holes in the roster (i.e. defensive 4/5), Bonzi's an expiring deal and stands to make $7-$9 million vs. Kevin's $1 million. With the possibility that Bonzi can walk for free, I really think Bonzi's the one to go before the deadline, as I outlined in the trade thread. I'm as excited about the idea of Bonzi and Artest as anyone, but there are financial (luxury tax) and practical (two crazies together) aspects to consider.

And don't forget about the draft. It's highly likely that even if the Kings trade both Bonzi and Garcia they could get a servicable/promising 2/3 through the draft.

 

[whozit]

Because of the Bonzi contract status, I could see us trying to move him too. But I just think that would be foolish given the Bonzi/Artest combo's potential.

I agree on this. It would be good to see the potential and see what happens the rest of the year. I would also be hesitant of moving another starter at this time. Bonzi and the youngsters know the system. The Kings already have to work one starter in, working two in could ignite choas.

Only way around that I can see is if we kept the kids around just in case either Bonzi or Artest went nuclear. Could make sense for us, but meanwhile you have an unhappy frustrated kid wasting away on the bench waiting for something to go wrong.

That is if you don't move one of them over the summer. Keeping the swingmen "as is" for the rest of the season leaves more options (is flexibilty a dirty word?) this summer. You trade one away (Martin/Garcia) and you give the bargaining power to Bonzi's agent. He could easily set the price (using the same reasoning that you used for Peja)

 

[Bricklayer]

Well we can't, or at least shouldn't, let Bonzi make it to the offseason without an extension. Same principle as the Peeja situation -- that's just a GMing mistake. All the leverage shifts to the polayer, and they can walk and leave you high and dry. Unfortunately we only have a month to get it done, but we have to make a choice here and soon, and at least get some sort of verbal committment from Bonzi if that's the way we are going.

 

[nbrans]

Well we can't, or at least shouldn't, let Bonzi make it to the offseason without an extension. Same principle as the Peeja situation -- that's just a GMing mistake. All the leverage shifts to the polayer, and they can walk and leave you high and dry. Unfortunately we only have a month to get it done, but we have to make a choice here and soon, and at least get some sort of verbal committment from Bonzi if that's the way we are going.

Extensions just don't happen in the middle of the season. They either happen before the season begins or after they end. I can't remember the last time an extension was agreed upon midseason. By the time they hit midseason, players want to see what they can get on the open market in the offseason, they don't have the incentive to take themselves out of the free agency auction.