Oh yeah and the Mobley for Nene deal seems very implausible to me. A great deal from our standpoint, but 99% sure it's not going to happen. I'm not even sure Denver has to do a sign and trade to get Mobley. I've heard differing accounts on that. But hey, I'd concede the Pierce trade too if the Nene/Mobley deal came with it.
OFFICIAL trade thread. Post trade proposals HERE! (merged)
- Thread starter CaminoChaos
- Start date
Peja's running around is NOT primarily system related. If it were in fact, any player you plugged int here would be just as effective at it. Peja's running around is an essential part of HIS game. Peja's. The system can take advantage of that and features a lot of cutting on its own, but he would still be running around, system or no.
KG...have you seen him play? His acquisition doesn't rework our system. He revitalizes it and brings it back to what it was in our glory days, which was a versatile inside/out PASSING system, not a one-dimensional jumpshooting system. He is the truest heir to the Webber/Vlade tradition int he game today. And that includes Brad (who lacks the mentality to control the game).
Pierce is the least of the "Kobe class" of players -- Kobe, TMac, Wade, LeBron -- but he's still one of them. He does EVERYTHING better than Peja, except shoot. Well, except for last year when he settled down and shot better than Peja too. The acquisition of a Pierce or a KG doesn't change the system at all -- what it does is restore what was lost in Vlade/Webb/Christie. Restores an initiator. That is where people get confused about our "core". This was never our core. These were the guys AROUND our core. The recipients and beneficiaries of the system, not the people who made it. We want back into the elite club we need a player or players who CREATE the system. Then we can surround them with whatever softy little jumpshooters we need to to convert on all those open looks that are created. Pierce is the least of the Kobe class players, and so he needs the most help. He can't carry as big a load as can the other players in that group (descendants of Michael/Pippen). But if you can get him back into town without giving up more than one of our "core" jumpshooters, then maybe he's got that help. A player of that type certainly gives you a better chance than trying to CHANGE the whole system to center around a bunch of jumpshooters and a #1 option who is solely concerned with creating opportunities for himself. That doesn't work.
KG...have you seen him play? His acquisition doesn't rework our system. He revitalizes it and brings it back to what it was in our glory days, which was a versatile inside/out PASSING system, not a one-dimensional jumpshooting system. He is the truest heir to the Webber/Vlade tradition int he game today. And that includes Brad (who lacks the mentality to control the game).
Pierce is the least of the "Kobe class" of players -- Kobe, TMac, Wade, LeBron -- but he's still one of them. He does EVERYTHING better than Peja, except shoot. Well, except for last year when he settled down and shot better than Peja too. The acquisition of a Pierce or a KG doesn't change the system at all -- what it does is restore what was lost in Vlade/Webb/Christie. Restores an initiator. That is where people get confused about our "core". This was never our core. These were the guys AROUND our core. The recipients and beneficiaries of the system, not the people who made it. We want back into the elite club we need a player or players who CREATE the system. Then we can surround them with whatever softy little jumpshooters we need to to convert on all those open looks that are created. Pierce is the least of the Kobe class players, and so he needs the most help. He can't carry as big a load as can the other players in that group (descendants of Michael/Pippen). But if you can get him back into town without giving up more than one of our "core" jumpshooters, then maybe he's got that help. A player of that type certainly gives you a better chance than trying to CHANGE the whole system to center around a bunch of jumpshooters and a #1 option who is solely concerned with creating opportunities for himself. That doesn't work.
Last edited:
He may still run in another system, but how would we know? He's only played in Coachie's system.
I won't argue that Peja has to make his own shot often, and in fact, presses too hard at times.
But when he puts his mind to it, he can be one of the best players to move without the ball in the NBA, IMO. And as far as executing the cutting plays of the Princeton offense, he's one of the better Kings to pull it off consistently.
Where Peja gets in trouble is when a physical, energetic defender plays in his face. He struggles to get his shot off, and seems to make questionable plays when frustrated.
Sure, Peja runs. But give Carrill some credit. He's worked several years directly with Peja and his game, and the running and moving has been a large part of it...
I won't argue that Peja has to make his own shot often, and in fact, presses too hard at times.
But when he puts his mind to it, he can be one of the best players to move without the ball in the NBA, IMO. And as far as executing the cutting plays of the Princeton offense, he's one of the better Kings to pull it off consistently.
Where Peja gets in trouble is when a physical, energetic defender plays in his face. He struggles to get his shot off, and seems to make questionable plays when frustrated.
Sure, Peja runs. But give Carrill some credit. He's worked several years directly with Peja and his game, and the running and moving has been a large part of it...
I don't see where Webb was ever an initiator. He could make some crisp passes, but he doesn't do any more from the high post than Miller can do except maybe dunk it with authority back in the day, but that isn't exactly about initiating anything. He was a dominating presence and that changes the game more than anything else. Certainly we miss that, but you don't just create a dominating presence out of nothing. We'd have to give up all of our players to get one and then that certainly would change the system. Paul Pierce is not going to give us that. And Christie really only grew into a quality passer his last couple years here and that was mainly because Bobby wasn't playing so we didn't have a backup PG. He was good at making pinpoint passes, but other than that he was never really a play creator. In that respect, he was more of a role player than the three guys we have now are. His value was in assigning him to the opponents best offensive perimeter player. Now Vlade was an intiator, but he never really controlled a game. Not any more so than Miller does now. He maybe had a few more creative passes in his arsenal, but standing at the top of the key and passing looks pretty much the same whether it's Miller doing it or Vlade. And Miller can actually make that shot too if there's no one to pass to. Jason Williams was an initiator when he was here. He got everything going. Bibby settled into more of a shooter role as he deferred to Webber, but he can definately be an initiator himself.
I think you're missing the point about what made the Kings succesful in the 'Chris Webber' period. The team game requires five players. You need a center, a point guard, a shooting guard, a small forward, and a power forward to make the team game work. We had a quality guy at each of those positions who played the passing game well and knew each other well enough to coordinate their actions. Right now our problem is that we haven't had a full team. We didn't have a center when Miller was out and we haven't had a PF since we lost Webber. And we haven't had a SG who played the team game either. You can't have that many holes and expect that offense to work. What we need is a legitimate PF and a legitimate SG who know their roles and play the team game. Having a dominant PF too would be nice but only a half dozen teams in the league have one of those. We were lucky enough to have one for 7 years and now we don't. Now if you know of one that is available for trade, let me know. I seriously doubt KG is.
And yeah, the running is part of the system more than it is a part of Peja's game specifically, but Peja knows that system inside and out and he does it well. Not true of Pierce. I give Carill all the credit, but do you honestly expect Pierce to come in and learn that system? He's a Kobe-type like you said. He wants the ball and he wants it a lot. He wants to dribble with it and drive and that means the ball is in his hands and not anyone else's. And like Pete himself says, if you pass the ball after trying to do something else it isn't really a pass.
I think you're missing the point about what made the Kings succesful in the 'Chris Webber' period. The team game requires five players. You need a center, a point guard, a shooting guard, a small forward, and a power forward to make the team game work. We had a quality guy at each of those positions who played the passing game well and knew each other well enough to coordinate their actions. Right now our problem is that we haven't had a full team. We didn't have a center when Miller was out and we haven't had a PF since we lost Webber. And we haven't had a SG who played the team game either. You can't have that many holes and expect that offense to work. What we need is a legitimate PF and a legitimate SG who know their roles and play the team game. Having a dominant PF too would be nice but only a half dozen teams in the league have one of those. We were lucky enough to have one for 7 years and now we don't. Now if you know of one that is available for trade, let me know. I seriously doubt KG is.
And yeah, the running is part of the system more than it is a part of Peja's game specifically, but Peja knows that system inside and out and he does it well. Not true of Pierce. I give Carill all the credit, but do you honestly expect Pierce to come in and learn that system? He's a Kobe-type like you said. He wants the ball and he wants it a lot. He wants to dribble with it and drive and that means the ball is in his hands and not anyone else's. And like Pete himself says, if you pass the ball after trying to do something else it isn't really a pass.
Last edited:
Wow. I mean, just WOW.
You don't see how Webb was an initiator. We only ran the entire freaking offense through him. The #1 or #2 offense in the NBA for the entire era. But other than that.
Doug Christie wasn't much of a passer until the last two years. Averaged 3.6, 4.2, 4.7, 4.2, 4.9 assists for the Kings and was one of the best OG passers in the league before arriving too. But other than that.
Vlade didn't control the game. Despite of course that being just about ALL he did at an elite level. His calling card. What set him, and us apart. But other than that.
I mean, what is there even to discuss in such a universe? I don't even understand the ground rules, other than a definite revisionist bent. You apparently were either watching a different team than I was, or perhaps IMHO weren't understanding/appreciating exactly what you were watching. It does explain why everything seems so hunky dorry for you though -- somehow you seem to not even be aware of what we have lost.
You don't see how Webb was an initiator. We only ran the entire freaking offense through him. The #1 or #2 offense in the NBA for the entire era. But other than that.
Doug Christie wasn't much of a passer until the last two years. Averaged 3.6, 4.2, 4.7, 4.2, 4.9 assists for the Kings and was one of the best OG passers in the league before arriving too. But other than that.
Vlade didn't control the game. Despite of course that being just about ALL he did at an elite level. His calling card. What set him, and us apart. But other than that.
I mean, what is there even to discuss in such a universe? I don't even understand the ground rules, other than a definite revisionist bent. You apparently were either watching a different team than I was, or perhaps IMHO weren't understanding/appreciating exactly what you were watching. It does explain why everything seems so hunky dorry for you though -- somehow you seem to not even be aware of what we have lost.
Last edited:
I actually didn't mind Kenny speaking up this season. He SHOULD NOT be backing up Darius Songaila. He is way more talented overall then Darius. But if Tim Duncan is ahead of him and he's complaining, then I would have a problem.
But yes, I as well think that he would be great off the bench for any team in the league. Right now, and last season post trade, I think he is the most talented player we have at the PF position. But in regards to what Mad D said ealier, that isn't necessarily what the Kings need right now. Sure Kenny Thomas is very talented, but the Kings need a post presence that has a legit shot of altering a game with his defense/shot blocking. With a guy like Ben Wallace, Kenny would be matched up perfect.
Our situation is quite a bit different. We still have two perimeter big men and we need as little redundency on the court as possible.
But yes, I as well think that he would be great off the bench for any team in the league. Right now, and last season post trade, I think he is the most talented player we have at the PF position. But in regards to what Mad D said ealier, that isn't necessarily what the Kings need right now. Sure Kenny Thomas is very talented, but the Kings need a post presence that has a legit shot of altering a game with his defense/shot blocking. With a guy like Ben Wallace, Kenny would be matched up perfect.
Our situation is quite a bit different. We still have two perimeter big men and we need as little redundency on the court as possible.
Darius was actually the veteran player on the squad. Thomas was brand-new and hadn't a clue about our set plays, etc. For him to act like he was a guaranteed starter at the 4 was naive at best and delusional at the worst. He was the new guy on the block and I don't think he'd earned the right to say a blasted thing. In addition, I did not appreciate how he chewed out some of our regular players as though he was some kind of leader or something. As a new guy, IMHO, NOT NAMED TIM DUNCAN he needed to show a little more respect to the guys whose team he had just joined.
Why am I seeing posts about the Kings trading for KG or the Lakers trading for KG?
Did I miss him demanding a trade out of Minny? Because if not, why on earth would the Timberwolves trade him? He just turned 29 which means he will be in his prime for the next three years or so. Besides, if Minnesota WAS to deal him it would have to be for either (a) another huge name that could be the new face of the franchise or (b) young players with potential and picks to rebuild, probably along with ending contracts.
The Kings (nor the Lakers for that matter) can pony up that kind of package.
Did I miss him demanding a trade out of Minny? Because if not, why on earth would the Timberwolves trade him? He just turned 29 which means he will be in his prime for the next three years or so. Besides, if Minnesota WAS to deal him it would have to be for either (a) another huge name that could be the new face of the franchise or (b) young players with potential and picks to rebuild, probably along with ending contracts.
The Kings (nor the Lakers for that matter) can pony up that kind of package.
A
wow... i was checking out some trade ideas on real gm and noticed that portland has their top 3 highest players coming off the books... well 2 and van exel next year but damn..... they have randolf, miles and telfair locked up for some time....randolff got robbed with his contract.... 6 years and he gets paid in 99 cent store peanuts.... he doesnt make enough to be traded.... not for the next 5 years atleast....
same goes for nene in denver... i doubt that either team wants darius or ostertag.....
chicago is the same way but how could we get chandler?
same goes for nene in denver... i doubt that either team wants darius or ostertag.....
chicago is the same way but how could we get chandler?
Bricklayer said:
Wow. I mean, just WOW.
You don't see how Webb was an initiator. We only ran the entire freaking offense through him. The #1 or #2 offense in the NBA for the entire era. But other than that.
Doug Christie wasn't much of a passer until the last two years. Averaged 3.6, 4.2, 4.7, 4.2, 4.9 assists for the Kings and was one of the best OG passers in the league before arriving too. But other than that.
Vlade didn't control the game. Despite of course that being just about ALL he did at an elite level. His calling card. What set him, and us apart. But other than that.
I mean, what is there even to discuss in such a universe? I don't even understand the ground rules, other than a definite revisionist bent. You apparently were either watching a different team than I was, or perhaps IMHO weren't understanding/appreciating exactly what you were watching. It does explain why everything seems so hunky dorry for you though -- somehow you seem to not even be aware of what we have lost.
You don't see how Webb was an initiator. We only ran the entire freaking offense through him. The #1 or #2 offense in the NBA for the entire era. But other than that.
Doug Christie wasn't much of a passer until the last two years. Averaged 3.6, 4.2, 4.7, 4.2, 4.9 assists for the Kings and was one of the best OG passers in the league before arriving too. But other than that.
Vlade didn't control the game. Despite of course that being just about ALL he did at an elite level. His calling card. What set him, and us apart. But other than that.
I mean, what is there even to discuss in such a universe? I don't even understand the ground rules, other than a definite revisionist bent. You apparently were either watching a different team than I was, or perhaps IMHO weren't understanding/appreciating exactly what you were watching. It does explain why everything seems so hunky dorry for you though -- somehow you seem to not even be aware of what we have lost.
Christie is a guy who makes the extra pass. What I meant to say was that he wasn't a playmaker until his last few years in Sacramento. Oh he helped a great deal in making the offense work, certainly. And he racked up the assists like every starter does in that system. And while I would agree with you that we need an initiator at SG to replace Doug, a system guy who is an above average passer, I don't think that's an impossible thing to find. That's why I keep pushing for guys like Marko Jaric and Julius Hodge. They're looking to pass the ball before they're looking for their own shot. I would strongly strongly disagree if you're suggesting that Pierce is that initiator we are looking for. There's a difference between an initiator and a guy who dominates the ball. An initiator is out there looking to make a play, make a pass and set somebody up for a shot. When has Pierce ever looked to set up his teammates before looking for his own shot? He's a scorer. He wants to create something for himself. And it's not like we have role players to surround him with who are going to wait at the three point line until he finds them with a pass. You're right that Bibby and Peja and even Brad in his years here have more often than not been the recipient of passes. The shooters we eventually want to get the ball to. But all of them have been more effective coming off screens than spotting up. And ultimately you're going to get a lot more open shots when you're constantly moving and setting screens and passing the ball than you're going to get with one player trying to create with his dribble.
Vlade's calling card was 'controlling the game'? See now I thought his calling card was superb passing and court vision. He was always looking to set his teammates up and hit them in a position to make a play. That's a tough player to replace. But let's get real here for a second. How many passing big men are there currently in the NBA? Duncan, KG, Brad. Umm, Bogut maybe? I agree that another Vlade would be fantastic but there aren't any. And with so many teams playing without a center or with a second rate center, I think we should be happy we have an All Star playing center for us instead of constantly bemoaning what he can't do.
I see your point about us lacking initiator's this year. That is a problem. However, I think players, good players anyway, change and adapt quite fluidly to fit their situation. We lost Webb at the trade deadline. We lost Christie halfway through the season. We lost Vlade just last summer. So in one season, or just half a season really, these superb initiators have left without enough time for everyone else to make a change. We saw Bibby taking over and becoming more of an initiator already. His assist numbers went way up. We didn't see enough of Brad after the Webber trade to really know much about how well he's going to play without him. I think he'll do just fine in that high post role. Peja has always been the sidekick. The second option shooter. It's more of a question whether he can step up his game, but then he did seem quite confortable as the obvious number one option last year. And since Webber left, there hasn't been ANY high post facilitator for the Kings except for that Seattle playoff series and even then Brad was hurt. The high post is bread and butter for the Kings. It's what gets Peja his shots. I still think he can be the number one option he was last year with Brad healthy again and the roles clearly defined from the start of the season.
I never said everything was hunky dorry. Vlade and Webber and Christie were huge losses. I'm not denying that. What I'm doing is moving on. And frankly, as a longtime Kings fan, I'm a little offended that some of you would rather trade away our whole team to get somebody else's superstar than let them play the game they've been thrilling us with for years. Yeah times change, and we move on. But these guys are our team. If you want to send them packing, then what is it exactly that you're rooting for? Is it just the name on the jersey? Is it just the thrill of winning? The thrill of winning means nothing to me if I don't have some connection to the players on the floor. I'm sure I could adjust to new players, I'm not living in the past. But seriously, we have three All-Star players on our team. We have one of the best centers, one of the best shooters, one of the best point guards. Alright we don't have Duncan or KG or Lebron, but neither does 95% of the league. We went to the playoffs this season, and the one before, and the one before.
And what is this about me not "understanding/appreciating" what I was watching? What I was watching was basketball. Probably I didn't see all of the same games you did, maybe I saw one or two you didn't. I don't know. But I certainly was appreciating it, and understanding it? Well I've got as much claim to that as you don't you think, fellow fan?
"I mean, just WOW." ...please.
Oh geeez. Spare us the righteous indignation, okay?
It's the name on the front, not the name on the back that make the team.
Trade away our whole team? Have you been living in a cave? That pretty much already happened. There are FOUR members of the team left who were here two years ago. FOUR - count 'em.
"These guys are our team." Well, look around. The guys that are currently on the team are, for the most part, recent additions. Sorry if I don't get all warm and fuzzy about KT, for example. I love this team. I have since 1985. I've loved it regardless of who wore the uniform. That doesn't mean I can't wish about making the team better.
As far as your diatribes about Webber, Doug and Vlade go, it seems you're the one not moving on. In case you didn't get the memo, those three are now part of the glorious past of the Kings. If you want to move on, look to the future...
It's the name on the front, not the name on the back that make the team.
Trade away our whole team? Have you been living in a cave? That pretty much already happened. There are FOUR members of the team left who were here two years ago. FOUR - count 'em.
"These guys are our team." Well, look around. The guys that are currently on the team are, for the most part, recent additions. Sorry if I don't get all warm and fuzzy about KT, for example. I love this team. I have since 1985. I've loved it regardless of who wore the uniform. That doesn't mean I can't wish about making the team better.
As far as your diatribes about Webber, Doug and Vlade go, it seems you're the one not moving on. In case you didn't get the memo, those three are now part of the glorious past of the Kings. If you want to move on, look to the future...
Found a couple of trades you guys might be intersting with Utah and Boston and Memphis:
#1
Sac Trades:
Cuttino Mobley in a sign and trade
Corliss Williamson
Kevin Martin
to Utah for
Matt Harpring
Gordon Giricek
Kirk Snyder
#27
Kings roster now looks like this
PG Bibby, Jackson
SG Giricek, Snyder (hopefully Evans re-signs)
SF Stojakovic, Harpring, Ilyasova??
PF Kenny Thomas, Brian Skinner, Villanueva??
C Miller, Ostertag
#2
Sac trades- Peja/K-9/Bobby Jackson for Swift/Marcus Banks/Posey
Grizz trades- Swift/Posey/J-Will/Wells for Pierce/K-9/Blount/Bobby J.
Boston trades- Pierce/Banks/Blount for Peja/J-Will/Wells
.........................................................................
The dollars would come close but a scrub or two might have to be added to make salaries match depending on how much Swift gets in the S&T.
Sac gets a PF in Swift, Posey to replace Peja and Banks for the future back-up to Bibby.
Grizz get Pierce to co-captain with Gasol, another center for toughness and so Gasol can stay at PF, plus K-9 to help round-out the front court. They also get to dump J-Will/Wells who are both clashing with the coach in an upgrade to Pierce.
Boston turns Pierce into Peja AND Wells. Blount isn't needed with Raf/Jefferson/K.P. as the three bigs and J-Will helps at the PG spot post Payton.
Line-ups:
Sac:
Bibby/evans/posey/swift/miller
Mem:
Bobby/Pierce/Miller/Gasol/Blount
Bos:
Jwill or gp/wells or ricky davis/peja/jefferson/raef
________________________________________________________________-
IMO the first one is better.
#1
Sac Trades:
Cuttino Mobley in a sign and trade
Corliss Williamson
Kevin Martin
to Utah for
Matt Harpring
Gordon Giricek
Kirk Snyder
#27
Kings roster now looks like this
PG Bibby, Jackson
SG Giricek, Snyder (hopefully Evans re-signs)
SF Stojakovic, Harpring, Ilyasova??
PF Kenny Thomas, Brian Skinner, Villanueva??
C Miller, Ostertag
#2
Sac trades- Peja/K-9/Bobby Jackson for Swift/Marcus Banks/Posey
Grizz trades- Swift/Posey/J-Will/Wells for Pierce/K-9/Blount/Bobby J.
Boston trades- Pierce/Banks/Blount for Peja/J-Will/Wells
.........................................................................
The dollars would come close but a scrub or two might have to be added to make salaries match depending on how much Swift gets in the S&T.
Sac gets a PF in Swift, Posey to replace Peja and Banks for the future back-up to Bibby.
Grizz get Pierce to co-captain with Gasol, another center for toughness and so Gasol can stay at PF, plus K-9 to help round-out the front court. They also get to dump J-Will/Wells who are both clashing with the coach in an upgrade to Pierce.
Boston turns Pierce into Peja AND Wells. Blount isn't needed with Raf/Jefferson/K.P. as the three bigs and J-Will helps at the PG spot post Payton.
Line-ups:
Sac:
Bibby/evans/posey/swift/miller
Mem:
Bobby/Pierce/Miller/Gasol/Blount
Bos:
Jwill or gp/wells or ricky davis/peja/jefferson/raef
________________________________________________________________-
IMO the first one is better.
Both trades make the Kings worse than they are now.
But the second deal? Why wouldn't the Kings trade directly with Boston to get Pierce? Instead they deal away Peja for . . . Slowmile?
The Kings run an offense predicated on the players having a high BBall IQ and they would trade for a guy who has had problems learning/remembering plays?
But the second deal? Why wouldn't the Kings trade directly with Boston to get Pierce? Instead they deal away Peja for . . . Slowmile?
The Kings run an offense predicated on the players having a high BBall IQ and they would trade for a guy who has had problems learning/remembering plays?
No offense meant in any way, but where in **** did you "find" these trades? Sorry but giving up our future (Kevin Martin) and/or the best shooter in the league for those players pretty much sucks.
PG Bibby, Jackson
SG Giricek, Snyder (hopefully Evans re-signs)
SF Stojakovic, Harpring, Ilyasova??
PF Kenny Thomas, Brian Skinner, Villanueva??
C Miller, Ostertag
Bibby, Evans, Posey, Swift and Miller?
God, just shoot me now.
PG Bibby, Jackson
SG Giricek, Snyder (hopefully Evans re-signs)
SF Stojakovic, Harpring, Ilyasova??
PF Kenny Thomas, Brian Skinner, Villanueva??
C Miller, Ostertag
Bibby, Evans, Posey, Swift and Miller?
God, just shoot me now.
Last edited:
Bricklayer made some comments about Webber, Christie, and Vlade and I responded with my opinion. How is that not moving on? Call them 'diatribes' if you will, I just call them paragraphs. 'Diatribe' applies some kind of axe to grind which I don't have. I disagree and I explained why. Doug Christie was my favorite player on the Kings. I loved Chris and Vlade. I'm not selling them short, I'm just being honest about what I saw.
And I was referring to the two All Stars, former sixth man of the year, and Mike Bibby as the team not KT and friends. I thought that was pretty clear, but I didn't do a very good job of explaining that. Sorry. You guys aren't just talking about trading Kenny Thomas, you're talking about trading Bibby/Miller/Peja. That is the team in the same way that Duncan/Bowen/Ginobili/Parker are the Spurs. No I haven't been living in a cave and really, I don't understand the need for a comment like that. Obviously I know about the Webber and Christie trades or I wouldn't have talked about them in my post.
"It's the name on the front, not the name on the back that make a team."
That's a very poetic little phrase, but honestly, I don't agree. The name on the front is the franchise. But I'm not cheering for Sacramento because I'll cheer any team that's the local team. I've moved to LA but I'm still a Kings fan. The reason for that is that I feel a closeness with the players on the Kings that I don't feel with any other team. We've shared good times and bad times together. It's a silly sentiment, but in a way it's kind of true. They don't know who I am and I don't really know who they are, but I've seen aspects of who they are. I've seen them succeeding against all odds and feeling the crushing blow of defeat. In a way this whole professional sports business is quite silly. It is just a game after all. And I've asked myself why I care enough to go out of my way to watch games, and it isn't easy sometimes. Why I feel like I'm walking on air when they win and I feel crushed when they lose. It's all so pointless right? And I can't really watch sports if I don't have a team to root for. That's what supplies the drama. That's what makes it interesting. It's not because the jersey says Sacramento, it's because I care about what happens to the guys in the jerseys. And speaking from the perspective of a teammate, I know it means a hell of a lot more than just the name that's on the jersey. And it's not surprising to me that the Kings went out the way they did because of that. Because they probably had more talent on their side than Seattle, but they didn't have the teamwork thing established yet. What they call chemistry. When you know what your teammate is going to do and you trust each other. That's why Vlade and Doug were so good for Peja and why Webber was so good for Bibby. Because they anticipated each other and trusted each other. And that there is what allows you to succeed when you face a challenge. And that's what it means to be on a team. And that, for me, is what it means to be a fan of a team. I'm a fan of the guys. And when one or two of them go, I'll miss them but I wish them well and wait to meet the new faces. I guess because I'm not in Sacramento anymore, or maybe just because I have a different notion of what 'fandom' is, but I suspect I would have a hard time still rooting for the team if they moved everybody and implemented a totally new style of play. I know Bibby and Peja and Brad and Bobby and they're good guys. Maybe KG is a better "basketball player" but in terms of the drama, the story, those guys are my heroes and if they all go, who am I going to root for? Probably nobody.
I'm not trying to be self-rightous, but I felt a little like my opinion was being disrespected, and all I ask is that you respect my opinion, even if you disagree with me.
And I was referring to the two All Stars, former sixth man of the year, and Mike Bibby as the team not KT and friends. I thought that was pretty clear, but I didn't do a very good job of explaining that. Sorry. You guys aren't just talking about trading Kenny Thomas, you're talking about trading Bibby/Miller/Peja. That is the team in the same way that Duncan/Bowen/Ginobili/Parker are the Spurs. No I haven't been living in a cave and really, I don't understand the need for a comment like that. Obviously I know about the Webber and Christie trades or I wouldn't have talked about them in my post.
"It's the name on the front, not the name on the back that make a team."
That's a very poetic little phrase, but honestly, I don't agree. The name on the front is the franchise. But I'm not cheering for Sacramento because I'll cheer any team that's the local team. I've moved to LA but I'm still a Kings fan. The reason for that is that I feel a closeness with the players on the Kings that I don't feel with any other team. We've shared good times and bad times together. It's a silly sentiment, but in a way it's kind of true. They don't know who I am and I don't really know who they are, but I've seen aspects of who they are. I've seen them succeeding against all odds and feeling the crushing blow of defeat. In a way this whole professional sports business is quite silly. It is just a game after all. And I've asked myself why I care enough to go out of my way to watch games, and it isn't easy sometimes. Why I feel like I'm walking on air when they win and I feel crushed when they lose. It's all so pointless right? And I can't really watch sports if I don't have a team to root for. That's what supplies the drama. That's what makes it interesting. It's not because the jersey says Sacramento, it's because I care about what happens to the guys in the jerseys. And speaking from the perspective of a teammate, I know it means a hell of a lot more than just the name that's on the jersey. And it's not surprising to me that the Kings went out the way they did because of that. Because they probably had more talent on their side than Seattle, but they didn't have the teamwork thing established yet. What they call chemistry. When you know what your teammate is going to do and you trust each other. That's why Vlade and Doug were so good for Peja and why Webber was so good for Bibby. Because they anticipated each other and trusted each other. And that there is what allows you to succeed when you face a challenge. And that's what it means to be on a team. And that, for me, is what it means to be a fan of a team. I'm a fan of the guys. And when one or two of them go, I'll miss them but I wish them well and wait to meet the new faces. I guess because I'm not in Sacramento anymore, or maybe just because I have a different notion of what 'fandom' is, but I suspect I would have a hard time still rooting for the team if they moved everybody and implemented a totally new style of play. I know Bibby and Peja and Brad and Bobby and they're good guys. Maybe KG is a better "basketball player" but in terms of the drama, the story, those guys are my heroes and if they all go, who am I going to root for? Probably nobody.
I'm not trying to be self-rightous, but I felt a little like my opinion was being disrespected, and all I ask is that you respect my opinion, even if you disagree with me.
hrdboild - You have the right to your opinion and I do respect that. Quite honestly, you were beginning to sound like a very clever troll and that's what got my hackles up. Believe me, I know what you're talking about when you talk about feeling a connection with the guys even though you don't know them and they don't know you.
You're making it sound as though we want to ship the last four from the good old days. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't. It's the off-season. We talk about trades. I would be willing to move ONE of our core if it could vastly improve the team.
What you may not realize is that the old team is gone. Period. It's over. Those days were wonderful but they're now memories. The new team isn't built yet. Petrie brought us - over the course of a couple of years - a team that took us to the edge. He may well be able to do it again. Right now, however, we're in transition and it's a terrible place to be.
I don't think they're going to move everyone but I am realistic that there is a chance they may move one of the core. Then again, they just might be able to do magical things without touching the Big Three of Bibby, Peja and Brad.
Aren't you at all curious to think about how good Bibby could be if he was setting up plays for Kevin Garnett? Doesn't the idea of Garnett in the Princeton offense make you drool just a little?
You're making it sound as though we want to ship the last four from the good old days. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't. It's the off-season. We talk about trades. I would be willing to move ONE of our core if it could vastly improve the team.
What you may not realize is that the old team is gone. Period. It's over. Those days were wonderful but they're now memories. The new team isn't built yet. Petrie brought us - over the course of a couple of years - a team that took us to the edge. He may well be able to do it again. Right now, however, we're in transition and it's a terrible place to be.
I don't think they're going to move everyone but I am realistic that there is a chance they may move one of the core. Then again, they just might be able to do magical things without touching the Big Three of Bibby, Peja and Brad.
Aren't you at all curious to think about how good Bibby could be if he was setting up plays for Kevin Garnett? Doesn't the idea of Garnett in the Princeton offense make you drool just a little?
Yeah, I admit I'd like to see KG in a Kings jersey running the pick and roll with Mike Bibby. That would be a beautiful thing. It just seems so unlikely, why talk about it you know? But then I guess probably nobody takes these trade proposals that seriously. We are fans after all.
Definately the team is going to have to rebuild in a new direction at this point and there's numerous opinions about which direction we should take. I lean towards the less drastic direction of keeping the key players we currently have, but I guess if you honestly believe that path falls short of the championship in the end, then why go down that road at all right? Makes sense. I'm not opposed to moving a key guy to bring in a higher ceiling player. I just haven't heard one yet that is both ( A ) reasonably plausible (IMO of course) and ( B ) a player I'd love to watch. I'm not that impressed with Paul Pierce, if you can't tell. People hate Kobe down here in LA. They're always talking about how much they hate him and how no one wants to play for the Lakers as long as he's there because they don't want to play with him. I really don't want someone like that taking over the team, no matter how good of a basketball player they are individually. When people say something like "Paul Pierce? How can you not want him? He's great!" I have to explain why and people are already skeptical, so that's a hard argument to make. Just like the "Hey Peja's actually pretty good guys!" argument hasn't gone over too well here. I guess I'll just have to accept that I have some pretty extreme views.
A very clever troll, heh no. I'm not a troll. I just don't won't back down from an argument when I feel it isn't settled. And arguments are good right? Especially on message boards. The exchange of ideas is why this whole place exists. And I wouldn't be here if I didn't think it was worth my time.
Definately the team is going to have to rebuild in a new direction at this point and there's numerous opinions about which direction we should take. I lean towards the less drastic direction of keeping the key players we currently have, but I guess if you honestly believe that path falls short of the championship in the end, then why go down that road at all right? Makes sense. I'm not opposed to moving a key guy to bring in a higher ceiling player. I just haven't heard one yet that is both ( A ) reasonably plausible (IMO of course) and ( B ) a player I'd love to watch. I'm not that impressed with Paul Pierce, if you can't tell.
People hate Kobe down here in LA. They're always talking about how much they hate him and how no one wants to play for the Lakers as long as he's there because they don't want to play with him. I really don't want someone like that taking over the team, no matter how good of a basketball player they are individually. When people say something like "Paul Pierce? How can you not want him? He's great!" I have to explain why and people are already skeptical, so that's a hard argument to make. Just like the "Hey Peja's actually pretty good guys!" argument hasn't gone over too well here. I guess I'll just have to accept that I have some pretty extreme views.A very clever troll, heh no. I'm not a troll. I just don't won't back down from an argument when I feel it isn't settled. And arguments are good right? Especially on message boards. The exchange of ideas is why this whole place exists. And I wouldn't be here if I didn't think it was worth my time.
I would love to keep all of them but I have to believe Mike is the least expendable right now, followed by Brad and then Peja. Peja - as a pure shooter - is probably the most valuable commodity we have right now and would garner the most interest from other teams.
Our problem is with salaries. We have taken on a huge burden with players that aren't as good as what they replaced. It's not going to be easy to get rid of them, IMHO, regardless of what others might say. So, when push comes to shove, we just might see a deal addressing our defensive woes that takes Peja away and brings back a couple of decent defenders in return.
I would really like to see us be able to do that without losing the core three, but I'm concerned. Joe and Gavin have both said they want to rebuild around the core, which scares me. They also said they wouldn't trade Jason Williams AND they pretty much promised Webber a home as long as he wanted. I actually feel better when they say nothing now than when they make some "assurances" in the media.
More than all this, however, I'm afraid the lockout will happen and we'll really be up **** creek without a paddle. It's not going to be easy for Petrie to do any magic if he's severely restricted in the amount of time he has to do it. I think a key component of our next season will be what Petrie can do with trades and perhaps a couple of free agents (Evans, Barnes, Darius, for example). If the lockout occurs on July 1, the Kings will be one of the teams most hampered because there is so much work Petrie has to do...
I'm keeping my fingers and toes crossed.
Our problem is with salaries. We have taken on a huge burden with players that aren't as good as what they replaced. It's not going to be easy to get rid of them, IMHO, regardless of what others might say. So, when push comes to shove, we just might see a deal addressing our defensive woes that takes Peja away and brings back a couple of decent defenders in return.
I would really like to see us be able to do that without losing the core three, but I'm concerned. Joe and Gavin have both said they want to rebuild around the core, which scares me. They also said they wouldn't trade Jason Williams AND they pretty much promised Webber a home as long as he wanted. I actually feel better when they say nothing now than when they make some "assurances" in the media.
More than all this, however, I'm afraid the lockout will happen and we'll really be up **** creek without a paddle. It's not going to be easy for Petrie to do any magic if he's severely restricted in the amount of time he has to do it. I think a key component of our next season will be what Petrie can do with trades and perhaps a couple of free agents (Evans, Barnes, Darius, for example). If the lockout occurs on July 1, the Kings will be one of the teams most hampered because there is so much work Petrie has to do...
I'm keeping my fingers and toes crossed.
Ok, I went back and re-read it. It doesn't hurt the team, but it doesn't really help either. Harpring is a nice toughnosed backup to Peja, but how many minutes will he really get? Snyder still has some potential, but he and Mo Evans are pretty interchangeable. Would this trade discourage Evans from re-signing? If so, it is essentially like we are trading Evans for Snyder. Giricek doesn't really interest me, certainly not enough to give up on Kevin Martin at this point.
Finally, why does Utah do this deal? Corliss is a nice scorer off the bench, but he isn't the defender Sloan would want, and Harpring is Jerry's kind of hard-nosed player. Plus, I think Sloan would pull his hair out trying to get Mobley to play under control and take good shots.
I think moves need to be made, but not just for the sake of making moves.
Finally, why does Utah do this deal? Corliss is a nice scorer off the bench, but he isn't the defender Sloan would want, and Harpring is Jerry's kind of hard-nosed player. Plus, I think Sloan would pull his hair out trying to get Mobley to play under control and take good shots.
I think moves need to be made, but not just for the sake of making moves.
hrdboild said:
Yeah, I admit I'd like to see KG in a Kings jersey running the pick and roll with Mike Bibby. That would be a beautiful thing. It just seems so unlikely, why talk about it you know? But then I guess probably nobody takes these trade proposals that seriously. We are fans after all.
Definately the team is going to have to rebuild in a new direction at this point and there's numerous opinions about which direction we should take. I lean towards the less drastic direction of keeping the key players we currently have, but I guess if you honestly believe that path falls short of the championship in the end, then why go down that road at all right? Makes sense. I'm not opposed to moving a key guy to bring in a higher ceiling player. I just haven't heard one yet that is both ( A ) reasonably plausible (IMO of course) and ( B ) a player I'd love to watch. I'm not that impressed with Paul Pierce, if you can't tell. People hate Kobe down here in LA. They're always talking about how much they hate him and how no one wants to play for the Lakers as long as he's there because they don't want to play with him. I really don't want someone like that taking over the team, no matter how good of a basketball player they are individually. When people say something like "Paul Pierce? How can you not want him? He's great!" I have to explain why and people are already skeptical, so that's a hard argument to make. Just like the "Hey Peja's actually pretty good guys!" argument hasn't gone over too well here. I guess I'll just have to accept that I have some pretty extreme views.
A very clever troll, heh no. I'm not a troll. I just don't won't back down from an argument when I feel it isn't settled. And arguments are good right? Especially on message boards. The exchange of ideas is why this whole place exists. And I wouldn't be here if I didn't think it was worth my time.
Definately the team is going to have to rebuild in a new direction at this point and there's numerous opinions about which direction we should take. I lean towards the less drastic direction of keeping the key players we currently have, but I guess if you honestly believe that path falls short of the championship in the end, then why go down that road at all right? Makes sense. I'm not opposed to moving a key guy to bring in a higher ceiling player. I just haven't heard one yet that is both ( A ) reasonably plausible (IMO of course) and ( B ) a player I'd love to watch. I'm not that impressed with Paul Pierce, if you can't tell.
People hate Kobe down here in LA. They're always talking about how much they hate him and how no one wants to play for the Lakers as long as he's there because they don't want to play with him. I really don't want someone like that taking over the team, no matter how good of a basketball player they are individually. When people say something like "Paul Pierce? How can you not want him? He's great!" I have to explain why and people are already skeptical, so that's a hard argument to make. Just like the "Hey Peja's actually pretty good guys!" argument hasn't gone over too well here. I guess I'll just have to accept that I have some pretty extreme views.A very clever troll, heh no. I'm not a troll. I just don't won't back down from an argument when I feel it isn't settled. And arguments are good right? Especially on message boards. The exchange of ideas is why this whole place exists. And I wouldn't be here if I didn't think it was worth my time.
As far as "Hey Peja's actually pretty good" goes, I'll be totally honest. I love Peja. His rainbow three from back around the garlic fries stand takes my breath away. But he committed a cardinal sin in my book and I've struggled with it for nearly a year. He said he wanted to be traded and he didn't even care where he went as long as he got away from the Kings. Them's fightin' words to this Kings fan.
Being in LA, you're actually lucky in some respects. Every single news cast on every single station in the extended Sacramento area made it their goal in life to make sure every single word uttered by Webber, Peja, the man on the street, etc. was blasted at us repeatedly. Things were blown out of proportion and taken out of context with criminal abandon. The Kings have been crucified by a columnist in our local paper to the point where she's known more by her nickname of "Poison" than her real name.
I have loved this team since the beginning. It's been tough, lately, because not only have I had to support them through the tough times I've had to watch as they seemed to disappear before my very eyes. I'm trying to get the feelings back and I suspect as soon as we know what's going to happen, it will all feel a lot better. Right now, it's just the not knowing that is so hard on some of us.