OFFICIAL trade thread. Post trade proposals HERE! (merged)

funkykingston · Jun 17, 2005

The Pacers are losing some outside shooting and a guy who hits big shots in crunchtime. Would they want Mobley? I don't know.

Indiana has said all the right things about Artest since the incident in Detroit. Maybe they believe that Ron-Ron has learned from it and will be a huge contributor next season. Or maybe they are still quietly planning on shopping him. I don't know.

Peja for Artest? I never liked the idea of it. Cuttino for Artest? Quick, fax the papers.

Cat for Artest or Cat for Nene. Any remote chance of either one happening? I seriously doubt it. But hey, isn't that the idle chat that goes on during TDOS?

Dream, the impossible dream . . .

slugking50 · Jun 18, 2005

funkykingston said:

The Pacers are losing some outside shooting and a guy who hits big shots in crunchtime. Would they want Mobley? I don't know.

Indiana has said all the right things about Artest since the incident in Detroit. Maybe they believe that Ron-Ron has learned from it and will be a huge contributor next season. Or maybe they are still quietly planning on shopping him. I don't know.

Peja for Artest? I never liked the idea of it. Cuttino for Artest? Quick, fax the papers.

Cat for Artest or Cat for Nene. Any remote chance of either one happening? I seriously doubt it. But hey, isn't that the idle chat that goes on during TDOS?

Dream, the impossible dream . . .

Why would we want Nene? Isn't he just another undersized PF? How would we be getting better?

Bricklayer · Jun 18, 2005

slugking50 said:

Well he's at least listed at 6'11" 260, and actually started playing like it last season (I was not amused in his first couple of seasons with his sad rebounding and mediocre shotblocking). Also shows some eye-opening ball handling and pasing skills at times.

thesanityannex · Jun 18, 2005

true, Nene definitely stepped up his game this season, especially later in the year.

VF21 · Jun 19, 2005

Okay, I have a new proposal I don't think has been made before:

Peja to Indiana for Stephen Jackson and Fred Jones.

It was sent to me in a PM by a Pacer fan. Here's his rationale:

Any thoughts? I've thought about it a little and am honestly a bit intrigued...

foretaz · Jun 19, 2005

VF21 said:

unlike most fans....let me give u the downside of these guys...as well as maybe some plusses...

fred is an undersized 2....hes not long....hes athletic and most know he can jump out of the gym...hes the second best defender we got outside of artest....outside of his height...he doesnt have any real negatives....his shot has improved....before he broke his knuckle late in the season he had turned into quite a 3 point threat...once he broke the knuckle it got ugly...to be honest...he was streaky at best...but prior to that he was probably our most consistent outside shooter....yes...even reggie...reggies shooting percentage dropped dramatically from outside the arc the last couple of years...hes our 6th man now...

jack....hes long...he makes some bad decisions at times-primarily with shot selection...hes fiercely intense and can be a hothead at times...anyone that saw the brawl knows hes got a bit of thug in him....

both are very good defenders....anyone that has watched the pacers this year knows that for a fact....they both are legitimate 3 point threats...they both have no problem driving and getting their own shot....fred takes it to the rim relentlessly and is a good finisher....

we have a bit of a glut on the wing....these happen to be the 2nd and 3rd best wing players we have outside artest....theres no doubt they would come in and start with peja leaving...and they definitely would bring a different mindset....

so effectively we probably get ur best wing player for our second and third best....both are very reasonably priced and jack is locked in at a very reasonable rate for a number of years....fred would be a starter on quite a few teams now if not behind artest and jack....and he started quite a few games this year...especially after the brawl...and had a number of 30 point nites....he only seems to need the playing time...

slugking50 · Jun 19, 2005

Bricklayer said:

Theres no way he is 6-11. The guy who took that measurement must been handed some whiskey just before the measurement. He's 6-9 at most. Everytime I see him he looks shorter then the other big men surrounding him by at least several inches. Heck, I think he could easily be mistaken for a midget.

Bricklayer · Jun 19, 2005

VF21 said:

I just don't beleive we would do that. Trading down effectively for depth.

SacTownKid · Jun 19, 2005

VF21 said:

No and No. Neither are really any better than Peja on D. If the Kings made this sort of move I would finally agree with you that the Maloofs have lost it.

SacTownKid · Jun 19, 2005

slugking50 said:

I would agree that he may have some sort of Big Nasty thing going. He has never looked around 7 ft to me especially when he matched up with Duncan this year in the PO. I would say 6' 9" to 6' 10" could be right. That or because of his mass he may just look shorter.

foretaz · Jun 19, 2005

SacTownKid said:

ummmm.....for what its worth...and i have no desire to get in an argument...but they are both better defenders than peja....

peja is the better shooter of the three...a premium in anyones eyes, i agree...

both are clearly better defenders....

they are the 2nd and third best defenders we have on the wing or in the backcourt, only behind artest....do u think peja would be? uh...no..

peja is a great shooter....but an argument could definitely be made that hes a bit on the soft side....neither one of these guys even know what the soft side is....

as i said, peja is ur best wing player....these guys are numbers 2 and 3 on our team behind artest....

an argument could be made u could use 2 good wing players right now for the one....

the only real thing u would lose is the 40-45 percent shooting behind the arc....both of these guys appear to be the 35-40 type....

for a team wanting to get better defensively, this trade would make all kinds of sense, not to mention the different attitude u would incorporate....

if ur simply not willing to give up the premier shooter for those things, then i understand.....but understand what it is ud be getting.....and 2 significantly better defenders is definitely one of things ud be getting, a different attitude and the ability to take ur man off the dribble are two other noticeable things as well....

that being said, shooting is at a big premium in the league, so id understand if someone didnt want this deal because of that.....

foretaz · Jun 19, 2005

funkykingston said:

we actually have a player like mobley....fred jones....hes only younger, more athletic and a better defender...and cheaper too

as far as mobley for artest.....thank you...but no thank you

funkykingston · Jun 19, 2005

Peja for Jackson and Jones?

No.

The long held NBA axiom states that the team that comes away with the best player got the better end of the trade. Peja is significantly better than Jones and Jackson.

I like Fred Jones, but his size will always be a problem and probably prevent him from ever being a starter on a good team. I simply don't like Jackson. I have a hard time believing that Petrie would bring in a starter with such a low basketball IQ. Keep in mind that Jackson had virtually no takers when he was on the free agent market two seasons ago, which is why he had to sign with the Hawks to try to showcase himself.

Bobby and Kevin could easily provide what Jones would give us as a guard off the bench, and I'd much rather have Peja starting than Stephen Jackson.

I'm not really opposed to Geoff dealing anyone, but right now Peja is probably the best trade bait the Kings have and if Stephen Jackson and Fred Jones is the best Petrie could get for him I'd be really disappointed.

funkykingston · Jun 19, 2005

As far as Nene goes, at the Chicago pre-draft camp in 2002, he was measured out at 253 lbs, and 6 foot 9 & 1/4 inches without shoes. That makes him slightly bigger than Webber and easily more than 6'10" in shoes. Furthermore, he has an above average wingspan for his height at 7 feet, 4 & 1/2 inches.

I'm sure everyone knows that he is undersized, but at Chicago Fred Jones measured out at barely more than 6'2" without shoes.

http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/predraft_sizes_02.pdf

PS Just a quick edit. I only mentioned Chris Webber as a basis of comparison for prototypical PF height. I don't think anyone saw CWebb as undersized, so it makes for a nice reference. I certainly don't want a discussion comparing the two, or to drudge up old Webber arguments. I'm not Aileen.

foretaz · Jun 19, 2005

funkykingston said:

i understand this statement fully....i also understand it could be argued just how much better peja actually is...but i also understand we all have a tendency to overvalue our own and undervalue others....

the perception would be that peja is better in most eyes....as far as what they actually bring to the court....well im sure that could be debated as well....if u dont like the guy....that cant be debated, and i respect that....i think he might bring alot of what u guys seem to be wanting in the way of toughness and defensive presence, but thats probably not gonna change the fact u dont like him....and as mentioned fred is short-long wingspan-but short....a cheaper, better, less experienced, mobley...

for discussion purposes, how would u feel about jeff foster? another defensive presence, great rebounder....probably great addition to brad....hes probably got alot of what ur looking for in a complement to brad-though most of his offense comes in the way of putback, garbage type stuff....

does foster + jones interest u at all?

funkykingston · Jun 19, 2005

I really like Jeff Foster. And as mentioned previously, I like Fred Jones. The problem I have is that they are both fantastic role players but neither will ever be a star. Which is not to say that Peja is a star, but he and Bibby are as close as the Kings have right now.

If the Kings had a superstar player I could see dealing Peja for good role players, but as it is, they don't have a real star. Dealing Peja without getting back a bonafide 1st option scorer would put even more pressure on Bibby to score which is too much to ask.

Honestly I can't see a major trade between Indy and Sacramento. The Kings don't have anyone good enough to deal for O'Neal and none of the other Pacers have the star power the Kings need. Peja for Artest would seem to be an even trade talent wise but Petrie seems to agree with me that it isn't a deal in the Kings' best interest.

I don't think I'm overvaluing Peja. I WOULD mention that his defense is much better than what he is given credit for nationally or by the casual fan. He guards guys like Rashard Lewis and Dirk Novitzki as well as anyone in the league.

That being said, I understand his limitations: never shown himself to be a clutch performer, has been underwhelming in the postseason (although he looked good against Seattle this year), questionable if he'll get any better, still bothered by physical play, reticent to play through pain and is fails to make any hustle plays (crashing the boards, diving for loose balls, taking charges)

And yet despite all of that, the fact remains that Peja is one of the most reliable scorers in the NBA and, if not the best, among the top three in terms of pure shooters. Watching the Kings, it can be seen that he stretches the defense as an outside shooting threat. His mere presence opens things up for the rest of the team.

As the Kings most valuable asset (in terms of a trade) I don't want to see him dealt for a couple "good" players. I want a star, or a guy with the potential to be a star. The Kings don't have enough tradeable pieces to screw up in a trade for Peja.

foretaz · Jun 19, 2005

funkykingston said:

you know....ur one of the first people i read on here....you seem to be pretty intune with how things work....

i agree....i dont see anyway artest goes to sacramento...for reasons i mentioned before...if that was gonna happen....it wouldve happened last year....

but i am curious....do u truly think that artest and peja are even in the talent category?

funkykingston · Jun 19, 2005

Depends on what you mean by talent.

Artest clearly has superior physical gifts. He's stronger, quicker, more explosive, a better rebounder and has the fierce, "anything it takes" mentality that the Kings need. He may even be a better ballhandler, which is saying something since Peja is no slouch as a SF in terms of dribbling.

Even if we ignoring the brawl, the problem with Artest is that one of his greatest gifts (his intensity) is also his greatest weakness. He sometimes picks up inexplicable fouls and was out of control to the extent that the Bulls had him seeing a psychiatrist who had him on medication.

But what worried me the most about Artest was what I saw last year in the playoffs. He exhibited some of the dumbest offensive basketball I've ever seen, diving into the lane 1 on 3 only to get a number of shots blocked. He launched up some AWFUL shots. As long as the Kings are a team based on precise offensive execution (read: as long as RA is coach and/or Petrie is GM) I just don't see Artest being effective in Sacramento.

If he can play within himself, Artest certainly has the ability to be better than Peja (though he'll never be the shooter nor, I suspect, the scorer) but Stojakovic is a much better fit for the Kings offense.

Alacron · Jun 19, 2005

Peja and Skinner for Elton Brand. I checked it at Realgm, therefore, it's bound to happen.

~~

foretaz · Jun 19, 2005

funkykingston said:

this is why i like reading u...obviously very informed....and quite impartial it seems.....and the even talent thing struck me as being out of character and uninformed....

yes...ron definitely has issues....and if left unresolved, he will have more serious things to worry with than basketball...basketball will only be the most public forum for his life falling apart...

now assuming those things arent happening because he appears to be getting the proper help....

then the basketball issues, at least to me, seem to be pretty clear....and i think not far from what u are saying....they appear to be similarly talented on the offensive end....peja is the better shooter, though ron seems to be improving-he was shooting the 3 at 40% for the brief early part of the season...but peja is just a great shooter....period....ron is probably considered more versatile offensively....he is very effective in the post-dominant when defended by any other 3...as well as being better off the dribble as far as penetration goes...

this obviously doesnt take into account anything regarding rons defensive game....or level of intensity and what that does to the players around him...ron can do what very few can do, dominate a game on the defensive end.....he can take a guy like peja and take him completely out of the game...

but now i feel like im just rambling on about how great a pacer is...and thats always a bit ridiculous.....heres what i was really getting at....and u touched on this too...

ron has all the makings of being a star....of course this is predicated on the obvious....

peja, to me, is a bit different.....he doesnt strike me as star.....star shooter yes...star player...not necessarily....

now in ur offense, or any offense that can highlight a spot up 3 shooter, he will shine....but his ability to take over a game or dominate a game seems to be pretty much limited to outside shooting....and if guarded effectively that threat can be greatly eliminated....

i guess his impact is based, in large part, around what others can do...and to me....just like reggie miller....the only way a pure shooter ever reaches true star level is when that player finds a way to get off his shot under difficult circumstances-which the princeton offense sorta does and reggie did with the maze of screens.....and most importantly hit these shots repeatedly under duress in clutch situations....this is what reggie did and peja has probably got some work left...

theres a very fine line between reggie miller and steve kerr....and i wont even go into the tim legglers of the world....

so my thought process is if peja is a very good player....and not a star...getting two very good players in return might make some sense-or not.....but i cant help but think that with jack and fred on the wing for instance.....that u would be better than with peja and kmart on the wings....u factor in the sudden desire to emphasize defense then i really think its not even an argument....

but as u say....as long as ra is there....u have to wonder whats talk and what the fans want to hear....versus doing something about it.....if indeed the kings are serious about what they are saying...they will do something like this trade....maybe not this trade...but something similar.....

peja is marketable...and by that, i think his perceived value versus his actual value is high.....just the opposite of artest right now....

the kings would go along way in dealing him for some obvious defensive prowess.....i only mention jones and jackson as being those types that would merit consideration because while they both are very good defenders they both are scorers as well....and i think that type of player is probably how the kings shed their soft label while bettering their team....

NewMonkey · Jun 19, 2005

Alacron said:

I actually thought about something for Brand a while back. I like Brand a lot as a basketball player, but the problem is that he's like 6' 8" or 6' 9" (undersized). He does VERY well for his size, but as we saw in the last half of the season, it's tough playing defense with an undersized Power Forward, especially when you put him with a Center that can't jump. Still, I wouldn't reject that trade outright.

ParniValjak · Jun 20, 2005

NewMonkey said:

Yeah but Brand has a wingspan of someone who is 7 foot. He blocks shots, rebounds and scores in the low post despite his lack of height. Brand is a very good post defender regardless of who is his opponent.

Apart from KG, I think Brand would fit this team the best. Despite being undersized he still is a defensive presence and a 20/10 type guy who also happens to be a good passer and a smart player. Having Brand in our side would allow us to have that inside / outside scoring punch. In Peja and Bibby we have players that are legitimate threat from down town. In Brand you would have a legitimate threat from low post.

A BIG trick would be getting Brand without losing Peja, Bibby or Miller

. If Petrie could pull this sort of deal off then he truely would be exceptional and would make Kings a contender again.

Elektrik · Jun 20, 2005

Here's a trade that works on real GM. Trade Peja, Kenny Thomas, and Brian Skinner to New York for Jamaal Crawford, Kurt Thomas, and Malik Rose.
New York would get some needed scoring and we would get a tough interior defender who can rebound not to mention a young shooting guard with a bright future. Isaiah might just be dumb enough to bite. Thoughts?

Bricklayer · Jun 20, 2005

Elektrik said:

ISAIAH would be dumb enough to bite?

We just traded Peja for Jamaal Crawford -- somehow I'm not thining Zeke comes out looking like the dummy.

Wouldn't mind having Kurt Thomas, or wouldn't have minded a couple of years ago (would have been a nice backup while the frontline was still intact). But he's getting old, and while he's a tough S.O.B., and has good size, he's still a very middling PF. Perhaps better for us that a Kenny because of his physicality, but still very much in that same lower tier of PFs and leaving us in need of some really badass players at the other positions to counter what we lose in Duncan/Kurt Thomas matchups. And then of course ina couple of years we have to go get a new guy as age really starts to hit Kurt.

Meanwhile we've also picked up Corliss #2, and are running a complete knucklehead over at the SG spot hoping that one day he realizes what a bad shot is and shoots over 40%. Wouldn't mind having Jamaal either I guess and sit on him and wait. And hope. And pray. But I'm not giving up anything big to get such a shaky future.

funkykingston · Jun 20, 2005

One potential trade I liked before CWebb was ultimately dealt to Philly was Webber to New York for the Thomas boys, Kurt and Tim.

Tim is vastly overpaid and underperforming, but he would have been a good backup to Peja and his bloated contract is up after next year. Kurt Thomas is a player I like for his toughness and underrated skills.

That being said, there is a difference between trading a guy like Webber where you know you can't get equal talent back because of his contract and age/injury history and trading a guy like Peja who is right now the Kings biggest chip should they choose to make a deal or deals.

Brick has it exactly right, Crawford is a gunner without a concience. If people thought Mobley jacked up a bunch of ill-advised shots, wait until they got a load of Crawford. Also, his knee injuries would worry me.

Skinner isn't far below Thomas in terms of bringing toughness and rebounding to the Kings and at this point in their careers I'd rather have KT than Rose. So for me it boils down to Peja for Jamal. No thanks.

Elektrik · Jun 20, 2005

I guess I had a better impression of Crawford. I suppose I should have reviewed his stats better. I only looked at his scoring average as opposed to his FG%. I didn't realize he had a rep as a gunner. Probably because I dont follow the east coast as closely as the West. Certainly dont want a gun after Cuttino. I thought his youth and potential might be worth a shot though.
I still like Kurt Thomas, but you are right about him creeping up there in his age. I would consider both Thomas's if we could unload KT. I've always liked Malik Rose and never really understood why Pop always had him in the doghouse in San Antonio. I guess I'm grasping at straws as I think we have to find a way out of Kenny Thomas's deal. Perhaps making this trade would give us better flexibility in other trades. I just dont see the value in Corliss, KT, and Skinner. To me they are pretty much stiffs. Gotta find a way to dig out of that hole.

funkykingston · Jun 20, 2005

Kenny Thomas is undersized, overpaid, reportedly a possible locker room problem waiting to happen and in general not the PF that the Kings need. But that's not a reason to find any way possible to dump his contract.

Sure, if a great deal for Peja came along and KT's contract balanced things, it would be great to get his contract off the books. But it seems like too many Kings fans have the attitude that he needs to be moved at all costs. I just don't like this line of thought. The Kings don't have the luxury of making any trades that bring in less talent than they send out anymore.

In fact, as I've mentioned earlier, I think Kenny, because of his contract and limitations, is more valuable to his current team than he could possibly net in a trade. In fact, if the Kings can find a way to upgrade the PF spot, I wouldn't have any problems with Thomas providing energy and hustle off the bench, so long as he doesn't grumble about it.

But I'm certainly not in favor of dealing him just to deal him.

Bricklayer · Jun 20, 2005

HUGE amount of money for anything less than a starter though. And a starter on an elite team he's not -- particularly not a team with Brad Miller at center. And that's before we even get to the potential attitude problems about being a bencher. He could be productive in our system, but that contract really spoils it (although I'm sure that he's not feeling that its so spoiled as he walks to the bank every morning). If you can escape that contract, you just have to give it a try. Not for nothing unless we are going into full rebuild. But a decent draft pick? Sure. A strong roleplayer with a shorter deal? Got to look at it. Even setting aside the max contract stupidity, you throw a big non-max new contract at Peja and he, Brad, Mike and Kenny will be eating virtually the entire cap for the rest of the decade.

Still would rather see him used as a throw in in a larger deal to get a big player -- in that sort of situation his excessive $$$ could actually work for us by letting us go after a big contract guy.

funkykingston · Jun 20, 2005

I suppose I should clarify. As I mentioned previously, the proposal we bantered around earlier (KT for Uncle Cliffy and the Nets pick) would be somthing I would jump all over. Moving Kenny by himself for cap relief or for a solid role player would be fine by me.

But the idea of packaging him with Peja or Bobby without getting equal value (such as the Knicks deal proposed here) just to get out from under his contract i just lunacy.

Elektrik · Jun 20, 2005

funkykingston said:

Nor do I. My point was not to deal him for players that cannot help us get better. If we could acquire a player or players equal to talent and skill level but have shorter and lesser contracts then it makes it easier to move them in a package deal. There are more suitors so to speak. There are very few teams that would have use for a Kenny Thomas as you pointed out in a previous post. We only did to unload Webbers contract. (Something I never did agree with BTW but that's water under the bridge now). In fact the only way that we can move him is if he is A) packaged with another King or two or B)traded straight up for another player with limitations and a crippling contract. I think everyone would agree that choice A is really the only option. Obviously to get any quality out of the trade we would have to give up a name player such as Peja, Bibby, or Miller for a quality player and one (or two) of their liabilities as well.
I also think that the only way to get an impact player (certainly none of the Knicks) is to take a risk. We did it with Webber. We need to see if there is a player out there with some baggage if you will who may just need a second chance. Ron Artest and Kwame Brown initially come to mind. However it happens, Kenny Thomas never was or ever will be the answer.

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