[Game] Nets @ Kings - 11/18/12

[hrdboild]

What in the world would substantiate you saying Howard's offensive game is poor and Cousins' is better? That is absolutely silly. Howard is a much, much better finisher around the basket. Howard is much stronger in the post. Howard has much better go to moves. What, you think Cousins is better because he can shoot an outside shot? lol, come on...I don't want my big bruising center to linger outside of the paint. Cousins' FG% for a center is atrocious at 40.5% and 43.7% for his career. To say Cousins has more offensive talent is mind boggling! Maybe one day, but certainly not now and not even close.

Talent and production are not the same thing. You watched the game today, presumably. Doesn't it frustrate you to watch Cousins go through the motions for most of the game and then suddenly turn it on and look like he can do anything he wants on a basketball court for the last 3 minutes? We're talking about a guy who led the NBA in offensive rebounds and charges drawn last season, at 21 years old. We've seen him attack the basket off the dribble from the three point line and toss in soft floaters. We've seen him rock the rim on putbacks. We've seen him pop fade-aways from 15 feet and hit backdoor cutters with textbook bounce passes. And yes, he's got a better looking outside shot than a lot of guards do (sorry Tyreke). Now some of those skills are probably not best-utilized in a guy with his frame, and it often looks like he's tripping over himself trying not to get in his own way, but if he does manage to put it all together and become a consistent player? Wow. He could demolish the league with the tools he's shown. That's what I was referring to.

It's probably unfair to pick on Howard. He's the best individual defensive presence in the league and his offensive limitations are well known. It was just a way of emphasizing my point -- we're all waiting for Cousins to morph into the monster he could be and he showed signs today that the monster is still there, waiting to get out.

 

[tyreeeke]

Talent and production are not the same thing. You watched the game today, presumably. Doesn't it frustrate you to watch Cousins go through the motions for most of the game and then suddenly turn it on and look like he can do anything he wants on a basketball court for the last 3 minutes? We're talking about a guy who led the NBA in offensive rebounds and charges drawn last season, at 21 years old. We've seen him attack the basket off the dribble from the three point line and toss in soft floaters. We've seen him rock the rim on putbacks. We've seen him pop fade-aways from 15 feet and hit backdoor cutters with textbook bounce passes. And yes, he's got a better looking outside shot than a lot of guards do (sorry Tyreke). Now some of those skills are probably not best-utilized in a guy with his frame, and it often looks like he's tripping over himself trying not to get in his own way, but if he does manage to put it all together and become a consistent player? Wow. He could demolish the league with the tools he's shown. That's what I was referring to.

It's probably unfair to pick on Howard. He's the best individual defensive presence in the league and his offensive limitations are well known. It was just a way of emphasizing my point -- we're all waiting for Cousins to morph into the monster he could be and he showed signs today that the monster is still there, waiting to get out.

One, I think Howard's offensive limitations are highly overrated. Just look at the numbers and his success in the win/loss column. Two, I agree Cuz has elite talent at both ends.

 

[Chupacabra]

One, I think Howard's offensive limitations are highly overrated. Just look at the numbers and his success in the win/loss column. Two, I agree Cuz has elite talent at both ends.

Do you mean his limitations are over stated? Or do you mean his offensive limitations have little to do with his impact on the game?

 

[tyreeeke]

Do you mean his limitations are over stated? Or do you mean his offensive limitations have little to do with his impact on the game?

I mean he's very good offensively, despite the propaganda.

 

[Npliam]

I mean he's very good offensively, despite the propaganda.

He uses his possessions efficiently and he is very athletic but if you have one possession and you need a basket Cousins is much better than Howard. As far as who helps their team win more? That isn't really even a question.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

He uses his possessions efficiently and he is very athletic but if you have one possession and you need a basket Cousins is much better than Howard...

... And, for context, this is coming from the guy who thinks that Cousins is not as good as Derrick Favors.

 

[Npliam]

... And, for context, this is coming from the guy who thinks that Cousins is not as good as Derrick Favors.

I don't think Cousins helps his team win as much as Favors helps his team win....that isn't the same thing.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I don't think Cousins helps his team win as much as Favors helps his team win....that isn't the same thing.

I don't really believe that's true, either: the Jazz certainly win more than the Kings, but I don't believe that much, if any, of that can be attributed to Derrick Favors, one way or the other. He's as much along for the ride as anything else. It's sort of like saying that Marreesse Speights helps his team win more, or Jordan Hill helps his team win more. Which is to say, not really.

Favors might be, maybe, the fifth-most important player for the Jazz. I don't buy the notion that there's anybody in the world who says that the Jazz will only go as far as Derrick Favors can take them, not even other Jazz fans. Frankly, I'm not really convinced as to what extent Favors helps the Jazz win, as they could challenge for the playoffs, with or without him.

 

[tyreeeke]

He uses his possessions efficiently and he is very athletic but if you have one possession and you need a basket Cousins is much better than Howard. As far as who helps their team win more? That isn't really even a question.

No, i'd rather have Dwight have the ball. Cousins' 43% career fg rate from a center is atrocious. He puts up horrible shots at times. I don't get what you're saying, Howard's low post game is an automatic foul line trip or basket for the most part. Definite double or triple team.

 

[rainmaker]

Reke can play (and has played) 3 positions. MT deserves 30+ minutes every night just like Evans. It's the 10 minutes that went to Jimmer, or the 16 that went to Johnson as the backup 3 that need to be redistributed, not Thorntons 26. We can't keep playing Brooks/Thomas/Jimmer. Smart needs to pick 2 out of those 3.

And none of it had to do with with Smarts relationship with Thorntons family. It just didn't. That's what I was responding to, really. Like I said .. If the accusation is favoritism that it's clearly not there. Evans has kept the starting job while having a sub par year. Evans played more minutes. Evans averages the same amount of minutes.

Disagree, although we might be talking about different things. Your contention seems to be that it's Jimmer minutes or Johnsons minutes which should have gone to Reke. I'd agree it shouldn't be MT getting his minutes cut and Reke should be getting someone elses. I think we'd both like to see more of a Reke/MT backcourt.

However, that's not what Smart is doing. He's playing Reke far less at the 3, if playing him there at all recently. He's played him at the point, but only a minimal amount of time. So if Smart isn't playing Reke at SF, and is barely playing him at point, then currently it's MT he's in direct competition with at the 2, and Smart appears to have a very long leash with MT. If Reke is playing well, he still might sit, and sit for ridiculously long stretches. MT however will stay out there no matter how he's playing. If he's playing well there's no question he stays in.

As for favoritism, I see it from this coach. Some players have a much longer leash than others. When your 2nd best player routinely can barely get 30 mins, there's obviously favoritism to those taking those minutes. You saying Reke is getting the same amount of minutes is bogus, if you're referring to what he used to get or should get.

His mins are getting cut. Last five games he's averaging under 30 per. He's been sat in favor of others while the 2nd and 4th quarters get blown open. He's shooting over 47% during those last five games. MT's been at 37% over those last five. 26%from 3. He's not impacting the game defensively either. If Smart doesn't consider Reke a PG and is playing all three of our PG's instead, doesn't consider him a SF as Salmons/JJ are splitting those minutes, then it's Smart riding MT instead during these key stretches, and many times for long stretches, and MT has not been playing well enough to keep Reke on the bench. If Smart did consider Reke more a PG or a SF and played him there, then I'd probably feel differently.

I'm not looking to argue though. If we don't agree we don't agree.

 

[rainmaker]

What in the world would substantiate you saying Howard's offensive game is poor and Cousins' is better? That is absolutely silly. Howard is a much, much better finisher around the basket. Howard is much stronger in the post. Howard has much better go to moves. What, you think Cousins is better because he can shoot an outside shot? lol, come on...I don't want my big bruising center to linger outside of the paint. Cousins' FG% for a center is atrocious at 40.5% and 43.7% for his career. To say Cousins has more offensive talent is mind boggling! Maybe one day, but certainly not now and not even close.

I'm not sure you understand what talent means. Just because Cuz becomes more efficient down the road doesn't mean he gained a bunch of talent, it means he's then better using the talent he has. Efficiency does not equate to talent. Is Kevin Martin more talented than Kobe/Wade because he's more efficient?

As for sheer talent, Cuz possesses a hell of a lot more offensively than D12. D12 is the better player now and a far better defender, but when Cuz gets it going he does things D12 could never dream of. That's his talent showing. Vlade was also more talented offensively than D12. Doesn't mean he was a better player.

 

[tyreeeke]

I'm not sure you understand what talent means. Just because Cuz becomes more efficient down the road doesn't mean he gained a bunch of talent, it means he's then better using the talent he has. Efficiency does not equate to talent. Is Kevin Martin more talented than Kobe/Wade because he's more efficient?

As for sheer talent, Cuz possesses a hell of a lot more offensively than D12. D12 is the better player now and a far better defender, but when Cuz gets it going he does things D12 could never dream of. That's his talent showing. Vlade was also more talented offensively than D12. Doesn't mean he was a better player.

Efficiency = talent. No need to sugarcoat. Winning = talent. No need to sugarcoat.

 

[Bricklayer]

Efficiency = talent. No need to sugarcoat. Winning = talent. No need to sugarcoat.

Methinks you need to lookup the word talent. Amongst others.

 

[spudfan]

Methinks you need to lookup the word talent. Amongst others.

You don't agree that Carl Landry is currently the #2 most talented player in the NBA!?!? With an efficient .613 FG% only behind DeAndre Jordan who is .689. BLASPHEMY!

 

[tyreeeke]

You don't agree that Carl Landry is currently the #2 most talented player in the NBA!?!? With an efficient .613 FG% only behind DeAndre Jordan who is .689. BLASPHEMY!

Is Carl Landry winning at a high rate and being the main contributor? No, but Dwight has and will continue to do so.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Disagree, although we might be talking about different things. Your contention seems to be that it's Jimmer minutes or Johnsons minutes which should have gone to Reke. I'd agree it shouldn't be MT getting his minutes cut and Reke should be getting someone elses. I think we'd both like to see more of a Reke/MT backcourt.

However, that's not what Smart is doing. He's playing Reke far less at the 3, if playing him there at all recently. He's played him at the point, but only a minimal amount of time. So if Smart isn't playing Reke at SF, and is barely playing him at point, then currently it's MT he's in direct competition with at the 2, and Smart appears to have a very long leash with MT. If Reke is playing well, he still might sit, and sit for ridiculously long stretches. MT however will stay out there no matter how he's playing. If he's playing well there's no question he stays in.

As for favoritism, I see it from this coach. Some players have a much longer leash than others. When your 2nd best player routinely can barely get 30 mins, there's obviously favoritism to those taking those minutes. You saying Reke is getting the same amount of minutes is bogus, if you're referring to what he used to get or should get.

His mins are getting cut. Last five games he's averaging under 30 per. He's been sat in favor of others while the 2nd and 4th quarters get blown open. He's shooting over 47% during those last five games. MT's been at 37% over those last five. 26%from 3. He's not impacting the game defensively either. If Smart doesn't consider Reke a PG and is playing all three of our PG's instead, doesn't consider him a SF as Salmons/JJ are splitting those minutes, then it's Smart riding MT instead during these key stretches, and many times for long stretches, and MT has not been playing well enough to keep Reke on the bench. If Smart did consider Reke more a PG or a SF and played him there, then I'd probably feel differently.

I'm not looking to argue though. If we don't agree we don't agree.

I understand your points, I just think it has nothing to do with favoritism, but I guess that's not something we'll agree on

Thornton is slumping now, but was better earlier in the season. Evans may be coming on now, but we have no idea what we are going to get from him on any given night. I want both those guys at 32+ minutes every night, no matter how bad / good they are playing. If Reke was in a hard slump I don't think you or anyone would/should suggest his minutes get cut.

I watch the game and look at the box score and see Thornton with 26 minutes, and say to myself 'Thats wrong, Thornton should have been on the court at least 6 more minutes' He's our best perimeter scorer, and we once again struggled on offense. I see Evans with 31 mpg and I'm not happy about that either, but at least it's closer to the minutes he should have got last night.

I know we agree that Smart needs to keep both players minutes up. Thornton is so clearly one of the top 3 players on our team, and if he's playing poor he has earned the right to keep playing and get himself out of the funk.

Smart, like Westphal before him, has suffered from 'too many toys'. If you give Westy Cousins, JT, Dalembert, and Landry he's going to play all 4 of them until none of them are effective. Remember how much better Cousins/JT/Dally played at the end of that season once Landry was shipped out? It was night and day.

Smart has Evans, Thornton, Jimmer, Brooks, and IT. The minute share is crazy. Realistically, he needs to straight up bench two of those guys. He won't do it though. Someone is going to have to go. I don't think it will be Jimmer because he has little value, and as a top 10 pick I doubt Geoff is going to admit he was wrong so soon. Brooks and IT have more value and are both on good contracts. Ship one, or both of them out tomorrow and this team will be better off. I'd like to keep IT, but I'm not as attached to him as others seem to be.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Is Carl Landry winning at a high rate and being the main contributor? No, but Dwight has and will continue to do so.

Indeed. A very high rate, .500 is.

 

[Padrino]

Efficiency = talent. No need to sugarcoat. Winning = talent. No need to sugarcoat.

this is just getting embarrassing for you, friend. you really don't seem to have much knowledge of how the contemporary nba works...

 

[jalfa]

Indeed. A very high rate, .500 is.

precisely the same as Landry and the Warriors, too.

 

[tyreeeke]

Indeed. A very high rate, .500 is.

Oh come on, you're being silly.

 

[mac]

I understand your points, I just think it has nothing to do with favoritism, but I guess that's not something we'll agree on

Thornton is slumping now, but was better earlier in the season. Evans may be coming on now, but we have no idea what we are going to get from him on any given night. I want both those guys at 32+ minutes every night, no matter how bad / good they are playing. If Reke was in a hard slump I don't think you or anyone would/should suggest his minutes get cut.

I watch the game and look at the box score and see Thornton with 26 minutes, and say to myself 'Thats wrong, Thornton should have been on the court at least 6 more minutes' He's our best perimeter scorer, and we once again struggled on offense. I see Evans with 31 mpg and I'm not happy about that either, but at least it's closer to the minutes he should have got last night.

I know we agree that Smart needs to keep both players minutes up. Thornton is so clearly one of the top 3 players on our team, and if he's playing poor he has earned the right to keep playing and get himself out of the funk.

Smart, like Westphal before him, has suffered from 'too many toys'. If you give Westy Cousins, JT, Dalembert, and Landry he's going to play all 4 of them until none of them are effective. Remember how much better Cousins/JT/Dally played at the end of that season once Landry was shipped out? It was night and day.

Smart has Evans, Thornton, Jimmer, Brooks, and IT. The minute share is crazy. Realistically, he needs to straight up bench two of those guys. He won't do it though. Someone is going to have to go. I don't think it will be Jimmer because he has little value, and as a top 10 pick I doubt Geoff is going to admit he was wrong so soon. Brooks and IT have more value and are both on good contracts. Ship one, or both of them out tomorrow and this team will be better off. I'd like to keep IT, but I'm not as attached to him as others seem to be.

The problem is Jimmer/IT/Brooks are far far far less valuable at the moment than Landry/JT/Daly was. So at least with Westphal you could understand why he was playing all 4 of them. But what has Jimmer/Brooks done so far to warrant being played every game for major minutes? It's one thing to say PW had too many toys, but in the case of Smart it's like he has a few toys and some scraps of rolled up cardboard, but insists on playing with all of them.