Monday morning 2-16-09 trade talks
- Thread starter Entity
- Start date
Henkel
Starter
I also doubt this happens, hell i wouldn't be surprised if Amare isn't traded and Kerr is shown the door at the end of the season.
As for whether Amare is a max contract player. Near 21ppg 9rpg player for his career who has had a couple good season after that knee surgery and he is only 26. I also wouldn't discount what he has done in the playoffs. He played Duncan evenly in two playoff series. Thats a big deal and something only one other big man has done in the last 10 years. To me he is worth it.
What would we be giving up in the draft and 2010? A 20 something pick in a weak draft. If you draft well a average starter to a good role player probably. In 2010 we are not getting a super star. At least not an established one. Bosh, Lebron, and Wade are not a possibility for us. What kind of player does that leave us? Are we going to sign anyone better then Amare? In the market place for NBA players anyone of Amares caliber is going to cost you near a max contract. There is also the possibility that you would have to overpay any number of borderline superstar/all-star players to come to a small market with a below average team. Maybe we get lucky and manage to do what Atlanta did a few years ago with Joe Johnson but 2010 doesn't guarantee us a great signing.
I Like JT a lot. I like him as a player and as a person. Jason has a way to go before he is anywhere near a 20ppg player or a fist option on offense. Odds are Jason will probably be a good player and a above average starter. These players are great when you have a star player but when you don't they lead you nowhere. They put up inflated numbers on bad teams, like John Salmons and Kevin Martin. They are not easy to come by but i would rather try to find players of Jason's caliber to put around a star player then the other way around. Jason could surprise me and be that star player but i would be willing to bet against it and trade him for a player like Amare.
You bring up some good points. Maybe it isn't a sure fire great move but overall i still think its worth the risk.
Last edited:
The whole bird rights thing is about giving the team that has the player the best chance at resigning them. It benefits the team, and it benefits the player.
The league benefits, too, because you don't have teams that can come in and outbid the home team for a free agent (except with exceptional second round players, like Boozer and Arenas). For instance, if Baseball had a bird rights system and max contracts like the NBA, the Angels would have been able to offer Teixeira more money and more years than any other team.
So if a team trades for an expiring contract player with the intention of signing him to a long-term contract, they have the ability to outbid all the other teams in the league. It's a part of the contract that they traded for.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
I know for a fact I wouldn't. I'd hate it if we gave up our lotto pick and JT. STAY AWAY FROM AMARE PETRIE!!!!
The thing about spending our assets now on Amare is that we forego other possibilities in the near future. It's an opportunity cost thing. And personally I don't see Amare as some "Savior" to a franchise type player. He's a lesser player than C-Webb was. He shouldn't even be compared to that. It's ridiculous.
Say no to Amare, so that way we have the pieces to continue a proper rebuild.
Say no to Amare, so that way we have the pieces to continue a proper rebuild.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Yeah and when you watch Amare get that 25 you realize it has a lot to do with his PG, the pick and roll, and dunks. At least Thompson shows somewhat of a post game.
Entity
Hall of Famer
while you were crunching the numbers did you bother to see average min per game and shot attempts. You have noted that JT could possibly rebound as well. Did you notice attempts for each player? Jason averages 8 Amare averaged 10 his rookie season. And when he was JT's age he averaged 17 shots a game to get that 25pts. Now with JT averaging 8 shots and 10 pts do you think it may be feasible that with another 9 shots he would be around the same number definatley over 20.
I really don't like PPG comparisons when 1 player takes twice as many shots as the other. I mean Kenny Thomas would probably average 30pts a game if he shot the ball 40 times and he would have 12 rebounds if he played 40 min. Does that make him better than Amare or JT??
Basically Amare is averaging 21pts 8reb in 37 min. Now take 11 min away from him and 7 less shots and he is averaging 12pts 6reb. What does this matter you asd? that is the same min and same shot attempts JT gets.
Jason averages 10pts 7reb in 26min. now figure it out giving Jason 7 more shots at his current 50% and another 2 trips to the foul line at 70% thats exactly 10 more pts and he averages 1reb every 3 1/2 min and give him the extra 11 min that Amare has thats eaxtly 3 more reb. Giving you this
Jason Thompson with the same shot attempts and min played as Amare Stoudemire would give you 20pts 10reb on averge vs. Amare 21pts 8reb.
captain bill
All-Star
he averaged 20 ppg the year before nash got there, and like was mentioned earlier scored more per game as a rookie than jt does now and was a couple years younger. i think it also cuts both ways- nash's numbers (assists at least) went through the roof when he started playing with amare. they are different players and think they would compliment each otehr excellently- i martin/jt/amare would be an amazing core and would sell the rest of the team plus 1st rounder to make that happen. otherwise i am sitting on the fence.
nbrans
All-Star
What other opportunities are there? Players of Amare's caliber hardly ever come available via trade, let alone anyone better. No one is coming here in Free Agency 2010. This is about as good of an opportunity that anyone can expect to come along in the near future. Sure, don't give away everything, but I sure hope our front office is trying everything they can to make it happen.
captain bill
All-Star
pure fallacy. shoulda woulda coulda. more minutes=more tiring on your body and more attention from defenders=less efficient productivity. arguing based on per48 stats makes no sense because it ignores the reality of what happens when you play 5 more minutes per game over teh course of 82 games against the best basketball players in the world.
Henkel
Starter
Really. Amare has much better ball skills then most big men. Great finisher with either hand, Has the range out to 18 feet. His foot speed and quick rising ability lets him get to the basket in the half court against most bigs in the league along with running the floor. He isn't a product of Nash, like any player he benefits from playing with a great pg.
He is suited to playing a up and down game like most athletic bigs but he can play in the half court as a face up player and on the block depending on the match up. Amare is a great offensive player. Seriously if you want to bash Amare while sounding like you know what you are talking about then talk about one of his short comings like defense or being an average rebounder.
ParniValjak
All-Star
And JT is 4 years older than Amre when he entered the league. JT's doesn't have a great deal of improvement left in him. He will peak by 26. Amare is already in his prime and alredy miles better than JT ever will be.
I love JT but the problem with our fans is that they are overly unrealistic in their assesment of our young players. Peja, Martin and now JT have all been placed under the same umbrella. They are good player but not MAX type players. JT will be good by he won't be a perennial All-Star like Amare is.
And people keep mentioning that Amare has played with Nash. True, but Amare is a finisher. I can mount an argument that a lot of Nash's assist numbers in Phoenix are due to Amare being a strong finisher. Would his assist numbers be as great if he was throwing it to Miller, KT, Mikki or JT?!
Its a two way argument.
Fact is, in 2010 we would be absolutly over the moon if we could sign Amare! No ONE can deny that. It would be the biggest FA signing in franchise's Sacramento history. Players like Amare don't become available too often. Here, we are presented with a chance to get our player BEFORE 2010. We have minimal chance of getting a MAX type player in 2010. Those players never leaver their teams via FA.
Also, getting Amare, pairing him with Martin, automatically becomes a very attractive option for other players. If you were a free agent, what would be more of an attactive offer to you, a team with Amare and Martin or a team with only Martin as a legit NBA player?!
Considering what is being offered for Amare out there, he is being shopped cheaply. We can get him for less than he is worth. If you can get Amare for a bunch of expirings (that we have no plans to re-sign), a good young player and a first round pick (Houstons), you do it in a second.
Getting Amare, keeping Martin and keeping your lottery pick? Thats some very good foundation to build from. You have a direction. Not to mention that you would still have some good players in Hawes and Garcia to surround these guys with.
Entity
Hall of Famer
Are you ****ing kidding me??? Yeah because JT is awful shape and playing another 10 min he would be worthless.
Jason has played in 7 games where he did get over 35 min and got a double double in all but 2 of them and 1 of them was 9reb. In those same games he had 2 games over 20pts and 1 at 19 the rest except for 1 was over 15pts all and only attempted over 10 shots in 1 of those 7 games.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Amare is certainly going to be a good scorer even without a great PG, but I'd expect his FG% to drop with more focus on him creating his own ofense, that's not really that big of a deal though. He'll find his scoring opportunities though without being that great of a creator. The problem is though that if we trade our rebuilding pieces for Amare then we're basically saying that this is our guy because we're going to take ourselves out of the top pick range, so unless we luck out in the draft we aren't going to get all-star type player there. Something else we do is we put ourselves in a position where we have to go find a center who can play very good post D (and no I'm not just talking about Thabeet's one defensive skill of shot blocking unless you just want to be the denver nuggets) and plus rebounding.
The clock will start and we'd have to find a way to surround him with players that will make us contenders or there would be no point in trading for him, trading for him because we're tired of being cellar dwellers is a stupid reason that will get us nowhere. Amare is not a franchise player, he is not going to be a championship level shot creator or defender. He's a second fiddle guy, a very good 2nd fiddle, but a 2nd fiddle nonetheless. He'll be 27 by next year and he has a history of serious knee injuries, he's extremely athletic yes but once he starts slowing down even a bit his ofensive game is going to take a bit hit because he only has his jumper to fall back on. He doesn't have the strength, post skills, passing skills, or ball handling skills to still remain remotely effective. He's not a guy who is a long term prize despite being 27 by next year.
The clock will start and we'd have to find a way to surround him with players that will make us contenders or there would be no point in trading for him, trading for him because we're tired of being cellar dwellers is a stupid reason that will get us nowhere. Amare is not a franchise player, he is not going to be a championship level shot creator or defender. He's a second fiddle guy, a very good 2nd fiddle, but a 2nd fiddle nonetheless. He'll be 27 by next year and he has a history of serious knee injuries, he's extremely athletic yes but once he starts slowing down even a bit his ofensive game is going to take a bit hit because he only has his jumper to fall back on. He doesn't have the strength, post skills, passing skills, or ball handling skills to still remain remotely effective. He's not a guy who is a long term prize despite being 27 by next year.
kupman
Starter
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3912108
Well, as I suspected, all of our debating is probably all for not. Too bad for us.
Well, as I suspected, all of our debating is probably all for not. Too bad for us.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Good.
captain bill
All-Star
Are you ****ing kidding me??? Yeah because JT is awful shape and playing another 10 min he would be worthless.
Jason has played in 7 games where he did get over 35 min and got a double double in all but 2 of them and 1 of them was 9reb. In those same games he had 2 games over 20pts and 1 at 19 the rest except for 1 was over 15pts all and only attempted over 10 shots in 1 of those 7 games.
i'm not saying that at all (bad shape/worthless player), that those extra 10 minutes would be worthless, only that we should look at real returns and not potential ones. amare is a proven scorer and has shown up in the playoffs, a multi-year all star, near all-nba talent and only 26. jt has shown potential but also inconsistency. put up 6/6 in 36 minutes against the thunder. he will be a good player for a long time, but you can't say with any sort of certainty that jt will one day be a comprable player to amare.
add to that the fact that they are essentially different players in skills and playing styles and its even more complicated.
bottom line is amare is a known and proven commodity, jt is a young and up and coming one. very very tough call any way you slice it.
Entity
Hall of Famer
ah so you put up the 1 game he got over 35 min that he didn't do well. Now that is a good way to cherry pick for your argument. I used all 7 games and that was the only 1. now shall I cherry pick the bad games Amare had with 35+ min????? Or do you just want to end this? ahem 3pts 1reb ahem. Shall I mention how many games Amare shot over 20 times to get his 20+pts.
No matter how you look at. There is no argument that puts Amare at a much higher level than JT. My biggest argument is shot attempts. I think its no question that JT can rebound just as good if not better I mean Amare averages 1 more rebound in 11 more min. I don't think you can argue against that. but damn Amare shooting the ball over 20 times in 7 different games and Jason only shooting over 10 times in 11 games. Honestly do you not think that with 7 or 8 more attempts that Jason wouldn't hit the 20 mare more often and with 11 more min he wouldn't get 10+reb more often. Can you honeslty say that??
No matter how you look at. There is no argument that puts Amare at a much higher level than JT. My biggest argument is shot attempts. I think its no question that JT can rebound just as good if not better I mean Amare averages 1 more rebound in 11 more min. I don't think you can argue against that. but damn Amare shooting the ball over 20 times in 7 different games and Jason only shooting over 10 times in 11 games. Honestly do you not think that with 7 or 8 more attempts that Jason wouldn't hit the 20 mare more often and with 11 more min he wouldn't get 10+reb more often. Can you honeslty say that??
Rockmeister
All-Star
Then I guess, the Kings will not make any trade. <sigh>
Circa_1985_Fan
All-Star
Not if it means us getting the bad end of the deal...if there's a trade out there for us to make that makes sense, do it...if not, I'm all for saving money for after next season.
KevinSalvadori
Bench
Wasn't 1998 sort of similar, IIRC?
KevinSalvadori
Bench
Amen. Well said.
Henkel
Starter
Amare was on a true championship contending team without a great defensive big man besides him. It would be nice to have but I'm not sure its something you have to have.
When Phoenix was contending Nash was considered the Suns best player but if you have the chance go back and watch Amare in some of those series you can't tell me he wasn't the best player on the Suns and without a doubt the first option on offense. Two conference finals and 2nd round robbery to the Spurs while averaging 25+ and 10+ over that 3 year run. Those were great teams, like any championship contender, and Amare didn't do it alone but as much as any other player he was responsible for the Suns success.
HighTopKicks
Bench
A 26 yr old who along with one of the most dominant centers in basketball and 2 other all-stars can't even make it into the Western Finals. So, what is he going to do for the Kings, when they have no bench, one premier shooter, and a bunch of role players. The answer is nothing. And, for that spactacular improvement your willing to pay him $20M & give up 2 high draft picks. Thanks, but no thanks.
I'd rather wait until we are a contender, before I start paying one player 1/3 of our team salary. If we were in Portland's position, and needed a star to take us to the Finals, then I'd jump on the deal. But, we're not and won't be even with Amare. He'll see it, won't like losing and will jump the first chance he gets.
kingsnation
All-Star
And round and round we go... Someone wake me when something happens...
A
AriesMar27
Guest
amare wouldnt be worth it if we trade thompson... if it were hawes and we get lopez in the deal then maybe.... i wouldnt want to risk trading jt and then lose amare the next year... but if we trade hawes then lose amare we have jt and lopez...
i like hawes more than jt but if we can get a player like amare for hawes and fillers then im okay with it. is the rockets pick lottery protected? a move that id be willing to make would be for tyson chandler... it wont cost us jt since they have west. the hornets want to cut salary by trading tyson. i say we go for it. bobbyj/moore/douby for chandler.
i like hawes more than jt but if we can get a player like amare for hawes and fillers then im okay with it. is the rockets pick lottery protected? a move that id be willing to make would be for tyson chandler... it wont cost us jt since they have west. the hornets want to cut salary by trading tyson. i say we go for it. bobbyj/moore/douby for chandler.
Aenadin
Starter
if you guys want to lower our lottery or heavens forbid lose it and at the same time lose a potential stud in thompson then this trade is for you...
there are potential trades out there with out losing any of our key young guys
Toronto could still use SAlmons....
Salmons
Douby
2nd round
for
Kapono
Ukic
For miller and Shelden we can trade them for washingtons
Brendan Haywood
Etan Thomas
Javale Mcgee
Udrih and Moore and houstons first round to bucks
Joe alexander
Dan gadzuric
Charlie Bell
line up would be
Ukic/Brown/Jackson
Martin/Garcia
Alexander/Greene/Kapono
Thompson/Haywood
Hawes/Mcgee/Thomas
thats a pretty young line up... and with the top 5 pick in this draft.... either rubio or griffin and a good developing coach...
there are potential trades out there with out losing any of our key young guys
Toronto could still use SAlmons....
Salmons
Douby
2nd round
for
Kapono
Ukic
For miller and Shelden we can trade them for washingtons
Brendan Haywood
Etan Thomas
Javale Mcgee
Udrih and Moore and houstons first round to bucks
Joe alexander
Dan gadzuric
Charlie Bell
line up would be
Ukic/Brown/Jackson
Martin/Garcia
Alexander/Greene/Kapono
Thompson/Haywood
Hawes/Mcgee/Thomas
thats a pretty young line up... and with the top 5 pick in this draft.... either rubio or griffin and a good developing coach...
Similar threads
- Locked
- Poll
- Locked
- Locked
- Poll
