MOCK DRAFTS: consensus from the experts?

[ovrush]

Still awaiting the first badass physical Euro to make the talk go away. The Argentinians are almost uniformly scrappy (if floppy), but its hard to ignore the habitual (and ingrained -- its a coaching/basketball culture thing) finesse of the vast majority of Euro big men. Doesn't suffice as a scouting report in and of itself, but there is certainly always that suspicion until we see that first pioneer. For some reason I'm thinking maybe he'll be Russian -- some big ole blown up AK47-with-muscles brute who gobbles boards and takes a sinister pleasure in splatting driving guards.

We already saw him... he just coldn't run or jump by the time he got here .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R88SiQPI5ck

although Brick did use the example of a 50 year old plumber with a pot belly to describe soft and Athritis did sorta look that part at least when he got here

 

[Dime Dropper]

I always rail against the word "soft" for any basketball player. Doesn't say a thing. In Europe the game is fundamentals. It has to be as the game of basketball is generally new there for the elementary-middle school age kids and only the American High Schools play it in grades 9-12. Euro kids, rather the schools they attend, don't appear to have middle school-high school basketball programs but there seems to be a plethora of "club" type teams.

So they learn basketball fundamentals and team basketball. Look what that led to and what the Euros and Argentina did to top NBA teams in international competition the past 4-6 years up to last summer. As part of the team concept you don't have the bangers and muscle types laying a hurt on someone trying to do a layup down the middle. It is not in the fundamental "culture" of Euro basketball.

Consequently, they are more finesse type players, 15-20 ft "shooters" and slashers and pick-and-roll types. The flopping comes from everyone over there (and in Argentina) watching international soccer where they have taken flopping and moaning to a much higher art form than even Vlade Divac did 98-04.

I prefer the word "finesse" for "big" Euros, like Gasol, like Nowitski and Zydrunas and even Peja. And its taken Yao 4 years to learn you don't win by being polite on the court.

The black kids referred to by Dime Dropper above start playing street and playground BB when they are 6, 8 and 10 years old. They watch the older kids playing on every playground. You can play BB with only a ball and a rim almost anywhere so in a city its easy to do whereas soccer is not. And every playground in NY city, and Chicago and LA, etc., has BB courts. It's easy for inner city kids to start there. And to win on the playgrounds you have to start knocking the other team kids on their butts. Finesse on the playgrounds of NYC is "soft" if you want to get to the next level.

I grew up as a yound kid playing stickball in New York City then later two years playing BB at American High Schools in Germany so I've seen both sides. Then and now is not a lot different. A "beaner" in stickball is the same as a hard foul on someone trying to layup down the paint. You learn to try to intimidate as there is no one around to show you how to win with "finesse". In Europe all the "club" teams for kids from 14-15 on up start with and stress fundamentals and finesse.

But then the Euros and Argentines using teamwork and finesse put it to the USA and our bang-bang style for a few years didn't they??

My book says watch Ajinca and Hibbert as the "bigs" at the 12 then wait for the annual GP surprise pick. Either of those guys in a year or two could bring some defensive presence to the Kings as well as getting 10 pts mostly on offensive rebounds and swatting away enough to start to eliminate the layup drills we've seen the past 4-5 years. And both have been written as better than average passing bigs.

Very well thought out post. Must have taken alot of time and effort, well done. Pretty much agree with everything.

Brick, I have to disagree that Gasol is soft. He may not be an intimidating force, but his defense is average at worst, and his rebounding is good. Not spectacular, but good. And going by your logic, the vast majority of big men in the NBA, Euros or Americans, are soft in some way, shape or form.

As pointed out above, the game is taught differently in Europe. But ALOT of European big men have came over and shown they can adapt. None are going to be Dwight Howard or Mutumbo when it comes to rebounding or blocking shots. That's more to do with being white than being European. Off the top of my head, I think their are probably more "star" Euro big men, than their are white American big men. Does that say anything? I think it says that despite athletic abilities or lack thereof, if you have excellent fundamentals and skills, they will be effective enough to make you into a very good player.

 

[Bricklayer]

Very well thought out post. Must have taken alot of time and effort, well done. Pretty much agree with everything.

Brick, I have to disagree that Gasol is soft. He may not be an intimidating force, but his defense is average at worst, and his rebounding is good. Not spectacular, but good. And going by your logic, the vast majority of big men in the NBA, Euros or Americans, are soft in some way, shape or form.

As pointed out above, the game is taught differently in Europe. But ALOT of European big men have came over and shown they can adapt. None are going to be Dwight Howard or Mutumbo when it comes to rebounding or blocking shots. That's more to do with being white than being European. Off the top of my head, I think their are probably more "star" Euro big men, than their are white American big men. Does that say anything? I think it says that despite athletic abilities or lack thereof, if you have excellent fundamentals and skills, they will be effective enough to make you into a very good player.

Gasol is neither a good rebounder (8 a game is sad in major minutes for a 7 footer) nor a good defender. He blocks shots with that length but scares nobody.

As for that silly "ooh they won they the WCs" bunk, that was always kind of sad. Yes, the cohesive team of guys who played together since they were 15 did indeed beat the mismatched All Star teams we would throw out there with 2 weeks practice time, but that had nothing to do with talent and everything to do with sensible team structure. There hasn't been a "WC" team yet that would beat the Celtics team that just won the NBA title.


And yes, some of the Euro big men have come over and adapted. But that is the problem. The vast majority come over soft, after being basically encouraged to be soft throughout their developing years (I have repeatedly agreed that FIBA rules, that artificial lane, and coaching culture are the culprits, not skin color), and they have to adapt just to get to even a reasonable level of physicality. And its not about being "white". Jeff Ruland was white. Bill Laimbeer was white. At best its a limit on athleticism (debatable). It is no limit at all on toughness. Europe needs a pioneer -- right now big kids growing up there have no hugely successful role model for physical play.

P.S. yes ovrush, that's why I mentioned Sabas -- minor tragedy for European ball that the Cold War and his injuries slowed him before he could make the jump. If he could have come over in his prime an been a perennial All-Star type big man in the NBA, a guy with skill who was still a big post player and dominant rebounder, it could have changed how a whole generation of European kids thought about using their size.

 

[nbrans]

Brick, I have to disagree that Gasol is soft.

I take it you didn't watch the game last night.

 

[Dime Dropper]

Gasol is neither a good rebounder (8 a game is sad in major minutes for a 7 footer) nor a good defender. He blocks shots with that length but scares nobody.

I never said he scares anybody. He is not below average in terms of rebounding or defense. I'd say average at worst.

As for that silly "ooh they won they the WCs" bunk, that was always kind of sad. Yes, the cohesive team of guys who played together since they were 15 did indeed beat the mismatched All Star teams we would throw out there with 2 weeks practice time, but that had nothing to do with talent and everything to do with sensible team structure. There hasn't been a "WC" team yet that would beat the Celtics team that just won the NBA title.

Do I sense some bitterness? You can't blame people for using that, particularly since the majority of Americans I've came across were always arrogant when it came to international basketball. Americans acted like all they had to do was show up and they'd win. Times have changed. Anyway, nowhere did I even mention the WCs. Although, the reasons you gave aren't entirely valid. Senior international teams have new additions and subtractions all the time. They have not played with each other since 15, although it's true they've had far more time to gel than what USA teams usually have. Still, though, maybe the US national team can learn something. It's better to send over a team of matching pieces than a team of all superstars. In the international game, shooting is as important as athleticism. And to be honest, it was blatantly obvious that far too many of the US players were too interested in playing the individual game than the team game. Alot of the play was simply one on one.

And yes, some of the Euro big men have come over and adapted. But that is the problem. The vast majority come over soft, after being basically encouraged to be soft throughout their developing years (I have repeatedly agreed that FIBA rules, that artificial lane, and coaching culture are the culprits, not skin color), and they have to adapt just to get to even a reasonable level of physicality. And its not about being "white". Jeff Ruland was white. Bill Laimbeer was white. At best its a limit on athleticism (debatable). It is no limit at all on toughness. Europe needs a pioneer -- right now big kids growing up there have no hugely successful role model for physical play.

That's where we see things differently. The big men here aren't coached to be "soft" as you insinuated (sp?). The game is taught differently in Europe, with coaches stressing fundamentals and the team game. That doesn't require dumping the ball into your freak athlete big man to dunk it home as much as it does on the NBA (sweeping generalisation, but you get the point). I didn't say it was just about skin colour. But if you're looking for an intimidating force who is going to jump 40 inches and block your shot, far more often than not, that guy is going to be black. I never said toughness comes with skin colour. That's a different story completely. You don't watch European basketball, do you? Their are plenty of big men here with alot of toughness. Do they go to the NBA? No, because, as pointed out earlier, GMs are looking for the next Dirk, the next Pau, the guy who can shoot the ball and has good fundamentals with potential to be great. They don't want the seven footer with good fundamentals who will just hustle and play tough defense, they'd rather pick a "raw" American athlete with limited skills in hope of him turning into a star. European kids have plenty of basketball athletes to look up to, and that is becoming even more clear as European basketball continues to improve and become more popular. Now there are potential superstars on the rise such as Ricky Rubio, who is an absolute magician if you've ever seen him play.

P.S. yes ovrush, that's why I mentioned Sabas -- minor tragedy for European ball that the Cold War and his injuries slowed him before he could make the jump. If he could have come over in his prime an been a perennial All-Star type big man in the NBA, a guy with skill who was still a big post player and dominant rebounder, it could have changed how a whole generation of European kids thought about using their size.

Again, that's just an assumption that their are no tough big men in Europe. Granted, Sabonis had that and alot more in great skills, but their are tonnes of tough big men who make no bones about using their big bodies to get position. A few have been mentioned earlier in the thread.
Brick, do you ever watch European basketball? That's a genuine question. You won't see poster dunks every game (although they do happen far more than people would imagine), but you do see big men go at it physically. They're not always the most athletic, but you can't question their toughness.

I take it you didn't watch the game last night.

I tend to base my opinions on more than one game. By the way, is that the game in which the Lakers got blown out by 38? Yeah, that's a true reflection on the talent on the losing team. Kobes' nothing special.

 

[bajaden]

Whether you like Gasol or dislike him, the Lakers were going nowhere until they made the trade for him. If thats the difference a soft white Euro can make on my team, please torture me with more of them.

The truth is, there have been several european players that were tough. Marsillonis, Petrovic, even Hedo is considered a tough player. The truth is that the players coming from europe are more fundamently sound and that makes up for their lack of athleticism. Thats more of a general statement than a specific one.

To say that the reason the Euro's have beaten us in the WC's is because they have played together since they were 15 yr's old and all we had was a two week training camp is the height of arrogance and certainly denial that the world has caught up.

I was taught when I played ball, that if you stepped on the field of play, there were no excuses. Don't tell me later that you have an injury, or you didn't have enough time to prepare. Thats your problem. If your not ready to play. Don't play. In other words, Put up, or shut up....

 

[Vlade4GM]

Gasol plays pretty solid D on most PF's, he's got really good length and decent lat. quickness. He defends Duncan pretty well.

 

[nbrans]

No one's saying Gasol's bad, but you'd have a hard time convincing me he's tough.

 

[Bricklayer]

To say that the reason the Euro's have beaten us in the WC's is because they have played together since they were 15 yr's old and all we had was a two week training camp is the height of arrogance and certainly denial that the world has caught up.

No, its the height of truth. And you may have been taught something trite like "put up or shut up", but that has little to do with the vagaries of real life. Its a nice motto for high school coaches teaching kiddies, but circumstances make all the difference. You take a dozen Serbain players who have never played together before and give them two weeks of training and see how well they do as a "team" out there in the WCs. On a similar note you take the Celtics in the Finals, have KG get hurt in Game 1, and you can say "put up or shut up" all you want, the injury would be an enormous factor. As it was for us when Webb wnet down. Or even Peja in that WCF.

It was the height of arrogance to assume that approach could continue to work in the face of the developing competence of the rest fo the basketball world. It is the height of intelligence to recognize that it could not and that all the chest puffing of Euro ballers over a result matching their carefully constructed teams, full of guys truly passionate about the WCs, with a random group of American stars trying to sell sneakers is what's pathetic. Its a yeah, yeah, whatever moment.


As an aside, the tough players you noted from Europe have been little players. We were talking bigs. There is a vast difference -- European little players often suffer from lack of defense, at least traditionally because of footspeed and an overreliance on zones, but they have not as a group been nearly as soft as the bigs. We saw a scrappy one in these Finals in Vujacic. Nor is a "soft" small player NEARLY the problem that a soft big player is. Your depend on your bigs to do all the things that a small player cannot -- rebound, block shots, defend the post and the rim, post up. For whatever reason (and that whatever is ruleset, coaching, culture) Euro ball has traditionally promoted skilled but soft bigs, not littles. This is no huge secret in the basketball world. It is even sometimes a matter of pride and huffing and puffing from Euro ball fans. It is however a major problem once you try to bump those players up to a league full of bigger, tougher interior players.

So far as I can recall we are 0-fer forever on a Euro big winning a title as the main guy, or maybe even as a rotation guy. 0-fer forever on a Euro big being a top 5 rebounder. 0-fer forever on a Euro big being on any of the all-defensive teams. And there is a definitive connection -- KG, Shaq, Duncan, Wallace, Robinson, Rodman, Hakeem, Grant, Laimbeer, McHale etc. have won every title for the last 20 years. They've all been top rebounders, top defenders, top post players. Sooner or later its going to happen. But if your resume as a 6'11"+ player starts off with "good shooter" and "plays team ball" and does not prominently mention rebounding, defense, post play, then you are soft and ill suited to get it done in the NBA. I have been eagerly waiting the exception to that rule, the guy who will change that, for at least the last decade as the ebst European players have flooded into the league. I still have yet to see it.

 

[bajaden]

It was the height of arrogance to assume that approach could work. It is the height of intelligence to recognize that it could not and that all the chest puffing of Euro ballers over a result matching their teams, apssionate about the WCs, with a random group of American stars trying to sell sneakers is what's pathetic. Its a yeah, yeah, whatever moment.


That, Bricky my friend, was the arrogance I was refering to, and it doesn't take the height of intelligence of recognize it. A moron could do it. Why the USA couldn't do it is beyond me. As far as belittling the euro's for their part. Well, they showed up and won.

My point about put up or shut up, means that if you get beat by someone, admit you got beat by the better player that day. Don't whine about it. Just shut up and go figure out how to win the next time. A question Bricky. If you were a euro baller, and year after year the USA threw together a random team and kicked your ***. Wouldn't you do a little chest pounding when you finally won? We pounded our chests more than a few times when we won. And we probably did it with an arrogance that they didn't appreciate. Don't get me wrong. I enjoyed it as much as the next person. But I can't complain when it comes full circle.

 

[Bricklayer]

It was the height of arrogance to assume that approach could work. It is the height of intelligence to recognize that it could not and that all the chest puffing of Euro ballers over a result matching their teams, apssionate about the WCs, with a random group of American stars trying to sell sneakers is what's pathetic. Its a yeah, yeah, whatever moment.


That, Bricky my friend, was the arrogance I was refering to, and it doesn't take the height of intelligence of recognize it. A moron could do it. Why the USA couldn't do it is beyond me. As far as belittling the euro's for their part. Well, they showed up and won.

My point about put up or shut up, means that if you get beat by someone, admit you got beat by the better player that day. Don't whine about it. Just shut up and go figure out how to win the next time. A question Bricky. If you were a euro baller, and year after year the USA threw together a random team and kicked your ***. Wouldn't you do a little chest pounding when you finally won? We pounded our chests more than a few times when we won. And we probably did it with an arrogance that they didn't appreciate. Don't get me wrong. I enjoyed it as much as the next person. But I can't complain when it comes full circle.

Your response indicated that I may have misinterpreted your initial post.

I interpreted it as "America COULD NOT have put together a team good enoguh to win those WCs". Which is false.

Now it appears that you actually agree with me that "America DID NOT put together a team good enough to win those WCs". That I agree with. Nor do I disagree that it was arrogance that caused us not to do so. Nor, for that matter, was I particularly rooting for us to win those last few tourneys, as it was quite clear to me both the arrogance of or approach, and the inevitabilty of an eventual loss.


However, and the key point here, the lesson learned from those losses is NOT that Euro ball with whatever stresses it puts on shooting and team play or whatever is "better". Its that for the Europeans (and rest of the world) the WCs and international competitions have (or at least formerly did) have at least as much status as "club play". That if your opponent takes a tournament seriously, prepares for it, assembles teams months ahead of time, puts them together in logical fashion with the sole purpose of winning, not pandering to egos or agents, you had better do the same or you will eventually get your *** handed to you.

I am not at all unhappy to see that lesson learned. I am however perpetually annoyed by the "you just spotted your little brother a rook and a bishop before playing him in chess, and then have him dancing around the table after he wins proclaiming how it proves he's better than you now" dynamic. It doesn't take a genius to compare our approach and preparation to that of the rest of the world and realize to what degree we half assed those tourneys.

We deserved to lose. That is not the same thing as saying we could not have won under different circumstances.

 

[bajaden]

Your response indicated that I may have misinterpreted your initial post.

I interpreted it as "America COULD NOT have put together a team good enoguh to win those WCs". Which is false.

Now it appears that you actually agree with me that "America DID NOT put together a team good enough to win those WCs". That I agree with. Nor do I disagree that it was arrogance that caused us not to do so. Nor, for that matter, was I particularly rooting for us to win those last few tourneys, as it was quite clear to me both the arrogance of or approach, and the inevitabilty of an eventual loss.


However, and the key point here, the lesson learned from those losses is NOT that Euro ball with whatever stresses it puts on shooting and team play or whatever is "better". Its that for the Europeans (and rest of the world) the WCs and international competitions have (or at least formerly did) have at least as much status as "club play". That if your opponent takes a tournament seriously, prepares for it, assembles teams months ahead of time, puts them together in logical fashion with the sole purpose of winning, not pandering to egos or agents, you had better do the same or you will eventually get your *** handed to you.

I am not at all unhappy to see that lesson learned. I am however perpetually annoyed by the "you just spotted your little brother a rook and a bishop before playing him in chess, and then have him dancing around the table after he wins proclaiming how it proves he's better than you now" dynamic. It doesn't take a genius to compare our approach and preparation to that of the rest of the world and realize to what degree we half assed those tourneys.

We deserved to lose. That is not the same thing as saying we could not have won under different circumstances.

We are in perfect agreement... All is well with the world..

 

[CruzDude]

First, this is a thread about MOCK DRAFTS

It is not a thread about the Lakers or Gasol or the Finals.

However, in the vein of Euro BIGS and the "soft" label (which I disagree with) as it might relate to potential draftees this year I think Gasol played the same in the regular season as the playoffs/finals. So did Radmonavich and Vujicic tho' Vuj did show better perimeter defense than Rad. You can't do that.

The Lakers got away with it against a poor Nugget team, a fading Spurs team and a younger, more inexperienced team in the Hornets. But the Celtics played an uptempo defense in all 6 games with one let down in game 3. And not a green Euro in sight from BeanTown.

But there too is the other issue with Euros for draft consideration.

They play perimeter defense period. Their inability to switch or know when to switch is not yet part of fundamentals from Euro ball. And stopping the slasher is not in their DNA either nor moving laterally quickly to stop moves to the basket.

Back to Ajinca. A lot of us love his apparent stats and measurements and "upside". But is he a starter for a lottery team or a project? And if a project is it 1-2 years or 3-4 years? Would love him at #42 but he won't be around then.

Batum and Gallinari could be in the same mold. Great offensive Euros, smart but with an NBA defense? or "upside" to play NBA defense? I don't think so. And that could be their rub.

 

[CruzDude]

MOCK DRAFT UPDATES, 18-June

Some fascinating bits today from Eric Doerr in his 2008 Win Scores NBA Draft Preview of 18-June which delves down into complicated stats and evaluations as to the productivity of players including their measurements. He had the following bits about some of the players that could be around 10-20 with some embellishments by yours truly:

Roy Hibbert: Could be better than the Mocks indicate as he was definite lottery pick last year before pulling out..... unlike Jordan, Koufos and McGee, his success comes against good competition and players his size ^

Marreese Speights: Given his stellar production, Speights is a deserved lottery pick and even makes a solid statistical argument for a top 5 selection. ^

Darrell Arthur: Does not project well at all. His Assist/TO ratio was miserable 0.4 meaning he had 2.3 TOs for every assist. And he wasn't even the best rebounder on the KU team. Darnell Jackson was, a 6-8, 250 lb senior whose Ast/TO ratio was nearly twice as good as Arthur. But Jackson is a mid-second rounder at best due to poor defense. >

DeAndre Jordan: Tall and athletic but not necessarily productive. Limited minutes in college. Big upside (my view) but lots of questions. >

Anthony Randolph: Although a higher lottery pick initially, the comments were not flattering: "Statistically, Randolph clearly doesn’t warrant a lottery pick, and may not even be worth a guaranteed contract." or "While Randolph’s shot blocking is promising, other indicators bode poorly, such as his high turnover rate. Additionally, Randolph’s performances were significantly worse when playing top competition." and if that was not enough, "Overall, the statistics paint a bleak picture for Anthony Randolph and the team that drafts him" v

Jason Thompson: Who?? Well well, where would we be without a dark horse flying under the radar two weeks before the draft? and from a small school at that, Rider University, in New Jersey mid-way between Philly and New York. DX ranks him 3rd at C among all Seniors (yes, a 4-year guy!) and 12th overall among the Bigs. 6-11 and 250, in 34 min/gm he averaged 12 rebs, 20 pts, 2.7 asts AND 2.7 blocks but only 58% FT. Got injured in a workout mid-May and did not workout much after Orlando. ^

(Glossary: ^ moving up, v dropping, > not progressing

 

[Jerichoholic]

I am definitely a Speights fan and have been for awhile and he should be available when the Kings pick comes up, it may be a bit of a reach right now but we may not say that a couple years from now. This guy has great game on both ends of the floor and the Kings are in need of a future PF.

I actually Jordan a lot as well because even with his limited minutes and inconsistent production he stats weren't really that bad. The guy has talents that most players just don't have. If he stayed in school he would be a top 5 pick next year if not the first pick.

I haven't heard of the Kings working out either of these players and I am not a fan of the players they have worked out, other than Westbrook and Batum.

 

[dmj]

I am definitely a Speights fan and have been for awhile and he should be available when the Kings pick comes up, it may be a bit of a reach right now but we may not say that a couple years from now. This guy has great game on both ends of the floor and the Kings are in need of a future PF.

I actually Jordan a lot as well because even with his limited minutes and inconsistent production he stats weren't really that bad. The guy has talents that most players just don't have. If he stayed in school he would be a top 5 pick next year if not the first pick.

I haven't heard of the Kings working out either of these players and I am not a fan of the players they have worked out, other than Westbrook and Batum.

I seem to remember someone saying that Speights was either scheduled to work out for us or already had, but I haven't been able to find the post.

Can anyone confirm or deny this?

 

[TheRaven]

I seem to remember someone saying that Speights was either scheduled to work out for us or already had, but I haven't been able to find the post.

Can anyone confirm or deny this?

We have seen him workout at least once, as he was one of the players in the massive 24-player workout that was held by Golden State last weekend. I haven't heard whether or not Petrie himself was there, but our club was involved and in attendance in some form. The Salt Lake Tribune had reported Speights was scheduled to work out for us, but I haven't heard any followup on whether that has happened yet.

Also, Jonathan Givony of Draftexpress is reporting that he has heard from unnamed sources that we are very interested in Darrell Arthur. That may be based on the fact that Arthur reportedly decided to cancel any remaining workouts after his workout for us. There could be a lot of reasons for him to have done so, but one small possibility is that he was given a promise by us. Just a rumor at this point, but something to think about.

 

[BritishColumbia]

Also, Jonathan Givony of Draftexpress is reporting that he has heard from unnamed sources that we are very interested in Darrell Arthur.

It sounds scary .. very scary. I hope it is just a rumor or bad dream. May be I am wrong, may be Arthur is gonna be a great player BUT right now, he is the last player I want to take withing our range.

 

[dmj]

We have seen him workout at least once, as he was one of the players in the massive 24-player workout that was held by Golden State last weekend. I haven't heard whether or not Petrie himself was there, but our club was involved and in attendance in some form. The Salt Lake Tribune had reported Speights was scheduled to work out for us, but I haven't heard any followup on whether that has happened yet.

Also, Jonathan Givony of Draftexpress is reporting that he has heard from unnamed sources that we are very interested in Darrell Arthur. That may be based on the fact that Arthur reportedly decided to cancel any remaining workouts after his workout for us. There could be a lot of reasons for him to have done so, but one small possibility is that he was given a promise by us. Just a rumor at this point, but something to think about.

Can someone explain this to me? I feel like I'm missing something here. As far as I can tell, the speculation that we are drafting Arthur at #12 is based around his cancellation of a number of workouts for other teams. If I remember correctly, at least some of those workouts were for teams working out in front of us, like the Pacers. Assuming we gave him a promise at 12 (I still don't understand why we would promise anything with there being a chance someone else falls to us), why wouldn't he continue to workout for teams in front of us in an effort to get drafted higher?

 

[ParniValjak]

We have seen him workout at least once, as he was one of the players in the massive 24-player workout that was held by Golden State last weekend. I haven't heard whether or not Petrie himself was there, but our club was involved and in attendance in some form. The Salt Lake Tribune had reported Speights was scheduled to work out for us, but I haven't heard any followup on whether that has happened yet.

Also, Jonathan Givony of Draftexpress is reporting that he has heard from unnamed sources that we are very interested in Darrell Arthur. That may be based on the fact that Arthur reportedly decided to cancel any remaining workouts after his workout for us. There could be a lot of reasons for him to have done so, but one small possibility is that he was given a promise by us. Just a rumor at this point, but something to think about.

I ****ing hope not!

A tweener, non-rebounding forward is the last thing we need.

 

[ParniValjak]

Can someone explain this to me? I feel like I'm missing something here. As far as I can tell, the speculation that we are drafting Arthur at #12 is based around his cancellation of a number of workouts for other teams. If I remember correctly, at least some of those workouts were for teams working out in front of us, like the Pacers. Assuming we gave him a promise at 12 (I still don't understand why we would promise anything with there being a chance someone else falls to us), why wouldn't he continue to workout for teams in front of us in an effort to get drafted higher?

I think its because the player doesn't want to risk injury. If he has a promise somewhere, and he goes on works for other teams, gets injured seriously then he could miss out all together.

I hope its not true BUT, if Arthur has a promise from us, then he would potentially have a lot more to lose than win if he goes on and works out for Indiana and gets injured. This way he is keeping himself out of trouble until he gets drafted and still gets his paycheck which is not a hell of a lot smaller than the one he would get if drafted by Indiana or NJ.

 

[BritishColumbia]

It does not look like a Jeff's style ...


... besides, he promised one PG from Washington some years ago too

 

[BMiller52]

It does not look like a Jeff's style ...


... besides, he promised one PG from Washington some years ago too

Which PG?

 

[dmj]

Which PG?

I think he is talking about Arenas.

 

[Jerichoholic]

I read this yesterday as well and it better not be true, I mean is it Geoff's life mission to do the exact opposite of what Kings' fans want as often as possible?

Arthur has a good base as he is almost a legit 6'10" with a long wingspan but it doesn't matter because he has no athleticism to go with it. How can a guy that size playing major minutes only average 6 boards a game in college?

 

[CruzDude]

As of yesterday, june 18, Arthur and Randolph have both fallen in the draft rankings as may have DeAndre Jordan. But Speights and Hibbert seem to be rising again based on skills, size and rebounding vs. good competition. Then there is the new dark horse, Jason Thompson, suddenly coming into the lime light until an injury in late May cut down his workouts.

From my thread #74:

Jason Thompson: Who?? Well well, where would we be without a dark horse flying under the radar two weeks before the draft? and from a small school at that, Rider University, in New Jersey mid-way between Philly and New York. DX ranks him 3rd at C among all Seniors (yes, a 4-year guy!) and 12th overall among the Bigs. 6-11 and 250, in 34 min/gm he averaged 12 rebs, 20 pts, 2.7 asts AND 2.7 blocks but only 58% FT

 

[CruzDude]

One Week To Go And Here Is My Mock

Really this is a concensus of many inputs. Most Mocks are for entertainment value and not all that good. I said most. A few are quite good. But when adding in the feedback from workouts the past 4-6 days the lottery ranking picture looks a bit, IMHO. Brook Lopez seems to be slipping as does Anthony Randolph and Arthur looks to be falling out of the lottery group all-together. So here goes my "ONE-WEEK-TO-GO" Mock Draft unfortunately based on quite a bit of logic, which can be the death nell considering how teams look at one player so differently.

MY UPDATE TUE, 24 JUNE
1 Bulls - Derrick Rose a no brainer
2 Heat - Beasley somewhat of a no brainer as well
3 Wolves - OJ Mayo somehow I see OJ at Miami, don’t know how but he is a Riley type
4 Sonics - Jerryd Bayless 2nd best PG and Ridnour and Watson are not the solutions
5 Grizzlies - Kevin Love with Jason Collins and Kwame Brown in the middle, the Grizz need help
6 Knicks - DJ Augustin stock is skyrocketing from recent workouts and Knicks need PG help or Westbrook
7 Clippers - Russell Westbrook Shaun Livingston is giant ? and Smush and Dickau not much help at 1-2
8 Bucks - Joe Alexander looks like Bucks really want Joe and he speaks Mandarin to talk with Yi
9 Bobcats - Brook Lopez Okafor better at the 4 and Mohammed and Hollins not the 5's to get to next level
10 Nets - Danilo Gallinari anyone else takes Danilo and he goes to Euro for 3-4 years
11 Pacers - Eric Gordon stock falling but is from Indiana and is a 6-4 guard who can play the point
12 KINGS - Anthony Randolph he keeps falling to #12 in many mock, if not Jason Thompson is GP type
13 Blazers - Roy Hibbert with Oden and Aldridge, they need reliable backup for Oden
14 Warriors - Jason Thompson I see them trading down to get a vet

Trades can drastically change it all but for now, this is my concensus from about 20 hours of research and ignoring most other Mocks. FYI: I see the good Mock Drafts as being ESPN, SI.COM and DraftExpress.

 

[joemama]

Arthur is hurt (nothing else)

1st Good Mock, but Gordon is definately not a PG, meaning Indy wouldn't take him.

2nd Arthur is not working out for teams because he hurt his back and hamstring: "Arthur was claiming to have a hamstring problem that kept him from attending the workout"

http://torontosun.com/Sports/Basketball/2008/06/14/5875616-sun.html

3rd if Augustin isn't readily available I want to see Speights, Hibbert, or Thompson because we don't need a project (high risk high reward) player.

 

[BritishColumbia]

Arthur has a good base as he is almost a legit 6'10" with a long wingspan but it doesn't matter because he has no athleticism to go with it. How can a guy that size playing major minutes only average 6 boards a game in college?

Actually, he is not that big. I would say, he is undersized.

6'8.5" with shoes, 216lb, wingspan is less than 6'11".

 

[Jerichoholic]

Actually, he is not that big. I would say, he is undersized.

6'8.5" with shoes, 216lb, wingspan is less than 6'11".

Hmm, are you sure, I thought the report had him bigger? If you're right then there are no redeeming qualities and we shouldn't touch this guy with a ten foot pole.