McGrady = Truly Great (MERGED)

[Bricklayer]

Singlehandely makes the worst team in the WC back into a surging contender. And was huge tonight exactly when great players are supposed to be huge -- down the stretch.

And to think a couple of years ago when he was on the market I wasn't 100% sure making a play for him would be a good idea. Oops.

 

[Fillmoe]

yao = softer than charmin tp


thats why that team was sucking it up when tmac was out

 

[Mad D]

I dont think Yao is soft, just finesse. I think the Rik Smits comparison is pretty accurate. Maybe even an asian Pau Gasol would fit him too. I never saw him as the next big center, but he's more than decent enough now with the centers we have around now.

It is McGrady's team, he pullled off some shots tonight that made me go 'how'd he do that'

 

[Purple Reign]

It goes to show you in order to compete in the NBA, you need a superstar. I know that many of you may say that Detroit does not have one, but in my opinion, Chauncy Billups is the most underrated superstar in the league.

But back to the original point. McGrady is a Superstar.

 

[BMiller52]

Yeah, TMac is really awesome. Too bad when he was on the block we didn't trade for him. TMac's shot looks so effortless and perfect it's scary. Good defender too and an excellent passer. Even with his back problems he's having he can get by on smarts/veteran savvy.

 

[AleksandarN]

Singlehandely makes the worst team in the WC back into a surging contender. And was huge tonight exactly when great players are supposed to be huge -- down the stretch.

And to think a couple of years ago when he was on the market I wasn't 100% sure making a play for him would be a good idea. Oops.

I would rather have Kobe by a mile he is more clutch and actually plays defence plus is a better playmaker. Too bad Kobe is not on the market. How about a Pedja and Mike for Kobe and Odom.(I know I am dreaming)

 

[BMiller52]

I would rather have Kobe by a mile he is more clutch and actually plays defence plus is a better playmaker. Too bad Kobe is not on the market. How about a Pedja and Mike for Kobe and Odom.(I know I am dreaming)

Wow.
Wow.
WOW
WOW
WOW
WOW
WOW
Kobe is more clutch??? Whatabout 13 points in 35 seconds against the world champs last year? Howabout the fact that he got 14 points tonight in the fourth when he was basically cold most of the night. Kobe being more clutch is simply not true. Don't let his 3 championship rings fool you, that was shaq's work. Bad back Mac and Shaq together get you 3 rings too.

Kobe is a better playmaker? WOW. Kobe is a BALLHOG. Tracy is a better playmaker, no doubt about it. He doesn't take THIRTY shots a game either. Mcgrady makes his teammates MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better. They're 9-4 with him, and 0-8 without him. They're FG % is higher with him. When tracy was in orlando, his teams usually sucked and he was over .500%. Kobe's LA teams have sucked and last year he got like 34 wins. Sorry, but tracy is better.

As for Defence, I'm takin TMac.

 

[AleksandarN]

Wow.
Wow.
WOW
WOW
WOW
WOW
WOW
Kobe is more clutch??? Whatabout 13 points in 35 seconds against the world champs last year? Howabout the fact that he got 14 points tonight in the fourth when he was basically cold most of the night. Kobe being more clutch is simply not true. Don't let his 3 championship rings fool you, that was shaq's work. Bad back Mac and Shaq together get you 3 rings too.

Kobe is a better playmaker? WOW. Kobe is a BALLHOG. Tracy is a better playmaker, no doubt about it. He doesn't take THIRTY shots a game either. Mcgrady makes his teammates MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better. They're 9-4 with him, and 0-8 without him. They're FG % is higher with him. When tracy was in orlando, his teams usually sucked and he was over .500%. Kobe's LA teams have sucked and last year he got like 34 wins. Sorry, but tracy is better.

As for Defence, I'm takin TMac.

What are you crazy Kobe is the better clutch player by a mile it is not even funny. I remember a poll on NBA.com where they asked the GM who would you have take the last shot to win the game. Do you what the result was like 90% voted for Kobe. I the GM of league would know than you and me. Also how many times has Tmac being named to the NBA all defensive team? As to a better playmaker Kobe wins that one too. He has better court vision than Tmac.

 

[KingKong]

Kobe been hitting game winners all his life. Tmac has had a few stints here and there. 13 points in 35 seconds was very impressive though. Still I would build a team around Kobe rather the Tmac.

 

[BMiller52]

You guys are crazy. Kobe's a cancer AND a ballhog. Tracy is amazing. I don't get how you're saying Kobe has great court vision. He has a career average of 4.4 APG, and that's WITH having Snaq to pass to and dominating the ball like he does. TMac is also a better rebounder. Mcgrady's also making his teammates better, a tnt stat showed that when he's off the court they shoot 5% less. Naturally Tmac is a better defender, he has really long arms. When he was in toronto all he did really was defend because VC was there. Also TMac is so clutch it's not even funny, THIRTEEN POINTS IN THIRTY FIVE SECONDS. Oh yeah, last night's block against Jason Richardson's buzzer beater could also be considered clutch too. Tracy has range out to like 40 feet, did you watch the hurricane katrina relief game on tnt? He hit two 40 footers in a row.

Sorry but I would rather have mcgrady on my team than mcgreedy.

 

[VF21]

What are you crazy Kobe is the better clutch player by a mile it is not even funny. I remember a poll on NBA.com where they asked the GM who would you have take the last shot to win the game. Do you what the result was like 90% voted for Kobe. I the GM of league would know than you and me. Also how many times has Tmac being named to the NBA all defensive team? As to a better playmaker Kobe wins that one too. He has better court vision than Tmac.

Um, okay. You think Kobe is the best.

But it's not totally CRAZY for someone to have a differing opinion, and if they're going to pick someone else, I think T-Mac is a pretty good alternative.

GMs of the league DON'T know everything. If they did, Brad Miller would have been drafted...

 

[4cwebb]

At this point, Kobe by himself has as many playoff series wins to his credit as TMac.

To me, it's probably six of one, half dozen of the other in the Kobe vs. Tmac debate. Both are great players.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Hey, I still think we should have offered Doug and Peja for T-Mac that summer! Of course, I didn't think Orlando would bite, but then months later they take Doug for Cat Mobley...

Remember all the pro/con T-Mac avatars?!

Edit: now it's all coming back to me.

My summer 2004 offseason plan:

1. Peja and Doug for T-Mac

2. Sign Brent Barry for MLE

New lineup:
Miller
Webb
T-Mac
Barry
Bibby

Ooh man, what a squad. Now why wasn't I made GM then?

 

[BMiller52]

Hey, I still think we should have offered Doug and Peja for T-Mac that summer! Of course, I didn't think Orlando would bite, but then months later they take Doug for Cat Mobley...

Remember all the pro/con T-Mac avatars?!

Edit: now it's all coming back to me.

My summer 2004 offseason plan:

1. Peja and Doug for T-Mac

2. Sign Brent Barry for MLE

New lineup:
Miller
Webb
T-Mac
Barry
Bibby

Ooh man, what a squad. Now why wasn't I made GM then?

Man, that line up is just CRAZY. Miller/Tmac/Barry/Bibby/Webber would've been a championship squad and fun as hell to watch. *shakes head*

 

[ONEZERO]

Wow, I hate kobe, but he's WAY better than tmac... Tmac just shoots and shoots and shoots... He has no passion or aything... Like a dead dog out there.... Can't win a playoff series... Everytime him and kobe match up, kobe dominates him.... He's the most overrated player... I don't care what he does he'll never win a ring... EVER... Now do I think kobe will get one? Hell no... But he's still miles ahead of tmac in talent alone... His shot is better.... His defense is better... Did I mention his shot is better?.. His handles are better... And no, tmac and kobe are both NOT clutch... Kobe hasn't made a huge playoffs shot except for that one against detroit.... And as for tmac? He's not even available to take the big shot... He just stands at the 3 point line and passes the ball up... Other than that 13 point miracle he hasn't done much....

And remember I hate kobe more than anything.... I like tmac, but I don't respect his game at ALL.

 

[Vlad]

What are you crazy Kobe is the better clutch player by a mile it is not even funny. I remember a poll on NBA.com where they asked the GM who would you have take the last shot to win the game. Do you what the result was like 90% voted for Kobe. I the GM of league would know than you and me. Also how many times has Tmac being named to the NBA all defensive team? As to a better playmaker Kobe wins that one too. He has better court vision than Tmac.

I think Kobe and T-Mac are both extremely clutch. I might even go as far as saying that T-Mac might be a tiny bit more clutch. He just has that swagger... And he looks sleepy.

 

[Bricklayer]

He just has that swagger... And he looks sleepy.

For some reason...

 

[foretaz]

Singlehandely makes the worst team in the WC back into a surging contender. And was huge tonight exactly when great players are supposed to be huge -- down the stretch.

And to think a couple of years ago when he was on the market I wasn't 100% sure making a play for him would be a good idea. Oops.

a couple years ago, when he ended up going to houston, the pacers offered artest and harrington...and they said no, they wanted artest and bender...and we said no....

funny how things work out sometimes....

he is a stud no doubt....

 

[Bricklayer]

Holding onto Bender too long has to be one of those real Indiana regrets. Passed up so many deals over the years for him with misplaced hope/confidence. Sounds familiar.

 

[AleksandarN]

Holding onto Bender too long has to be one of those real Indiana regrets. Passed up so many deals over the years for him with misplaced hope/confidence. Sounds familiar.

Sounds like what Dumars is doing in Detriot with Darko. I think it is time to cut bait.

 

[DirkAB]

Kobe and TMac are very comparable, hard to say that one is better than the other. TMac might be a better team player than Kobe, seems like he isn't as concerned about personal glory. Kobe hasn't even proven he can make the playoffs without Shaq, so one could almost make an arguement for TMac in the playoff department, since he has gotten there time and time again on his own. I would be willing to bet that the Lakers would have been just a leathal with TMac in place of Kobe. I personally would rather have Wade than both of them.

 

[KA_2]

Wow.
Wow.
WOW
WOW
WOW
WOW
WOW
Kobe is more clutch??? Whatabout 13 points in 35 seconds against the world champs last year? Howabout the fact that he got 14 points tonight in the fourth when he was basically cold most of the night. Kobe being more clutch is simply not true.

I have to assume you're a young kid if you truly believe 13 in 35 makes Tmac more clutch than Kobe Bryant. No one (but you, apparently) would take Tmac over Kobe in the clutch.

Don't let his 3 championship rings fool you, that was shaq's work. Bad back Mac and Shaq together get you 3 rings too.

Reality; Kobe Bryant has 3 rings and Tracy McGrady doesn't. Deal with it.

Kobe is a better playmaker? WOW. Kobe is a BALLHOG. Tracy is a better playmaker, no doubt about it.

You are very convincing.

He doesn't take THIRTY shots a game either.

Neither does Kobe Bryant. See http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kobe_bryant.

Mcgrady makes his teammates MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better. They're 9-4 with him, and 0-8 without him.

That's because the Rockets have NBDL talent outside of Ming, not because Tmac is a god.

When tracy was in orlando, his teams usually sucked and he was over .500%.

The Magic averaged 37.5 wins per season when Tmac was there.

Kobe's LA teams have sucked and last year he got like 34 wins. Sorry, but tracy is better.

That's team, singular, without the "s". One season.

And FYI, teams win games, not players, otherwise it would be a one on one sport instead of the five on five sport it is in reality.

I bet you were one of those people that said "Tmac is a loser" or that "Brand is a loser". We all saw how that turned out.

As for Defence, I'm takin TMac.

I'll take the guy with the 5 All D awards (hint: not Tracy McGrady) who has shut down some of the most elite perimeter players in the game, including Ray Allen and Vince Carter just this season.

 

[KA_2]

You guys are crazy. Kobe's a cancer AND a ballhog. Tracy is amazing. I don't get how you're saying Kobe has great court vision. He has a career average of 4.4 APG, and that's WITH having Snaq to pass to and dominating the ball like he does.

Tracy has a career average of 4.3 apg to Kobe's 4.4.

You're on a roll!

 

[Gargamel]

You guys are crazy. Kobe's a cancer AND a ballhog. Tracy is amazing. I don't get how you're saying Kobe has great court vision. He has a career average of 4.4 APG, and that's WITH having Snaq to pass to and dominating the ball like he does. TMac is also a better rebounder. Mcgrady's also making his teammates better, a tnt stat showed that when he's off the court they shoot 5% less. Naturally Tmac is a better defender, he has really long arms. When he was in toronto all he did really was defend because VC was there. Also TMac is so clutch it's not even funny, THIRTEEN POINTS IN THIRTY FIVE SECONDS. Oh yeah, last night's block against Jason Richardson's buzzer beater could also be considered clutch too. Tracy has range out to like 40 feet, did you watch the hurricane katrina relief game on tnt? He hit two 40 footers in a row.

Sorry but I would rather have mcgrady on my team than mcgreedy.

There's no way McGrady is more clutch than Kobe other than in your mind (because their track records don't match up in reality). That's just the way it is, no matter your personal opinions of his personality or whatever.

And the Lakers have a better record than Houston, despite being ranked lower at the start of the preseason by nearly everyone.

 

[Gargamel]

And no, tmac and kobe are both NOT clutch... Kobe hasn't made a huge playoffs shot except for that one against detroit....

Kobe won Gm2 of the 2000 WCSFs by 1 pt with a shot over Kidd at the 1 sec mark. He also hit a couple 3 pt plays that pulled LA over and ahead of Houston (last min of OT) in Gm4 of the 2004 WCQFs. He scored 8 pts in OT in Gm4 of the 2000 Finals, including the winning putback with about 2 secs left. He scored the game winning putback at SA in Gm4 of the 2002 WCSFs over Robinson at about the 2 sec mark. He took the rebound from Robinson off a Fisher miss with his left hand.

Defensively, he blocked Sabonis' game-tying layup at the buzzer in Gm3 of the 2000 WCFs. He had a last second strip of Pippen in the 1999 WCQFs in Gm1 that lead to a 1 pt win from behind (can't remember if it was the final play tho).

Beyond that, Kobe sank those 2 impossible threes to win the Pacific Div title in Gm82 in 2004. He also tapped in a missed free throw at the buzzer in 1999 at GS. Actually, Horry slapped the rebound away from the basket and Kobe jumped in and slapped Horry's slap into the rim. That's an ultra-rare NBA play. Plus, Kobe takes his game-winners by and large out of a timeout with a defender right on him who he has to shake.

This discussion comes like 2 days after Kobe just hit a 29 foot fadeaway 3 to beat the Mavs.

Now...remind me what McGrady has done besides 13 in 35 being that he's more clutch than Kobe.

 

[Gargamel]

Tracy has a career average of 4.3 apg to Kobe's 4.4.

You're on a roll!

He averaged more assists than McGrady LAST YEAR and that's WITH TMac having Yao to pass to.

 

[Gargamel]

I'll take the guy with the 5 All D awards (hint: not Tracy McGrady) who has shut down some of the most elite perimeter players in the game, including Ray Allen and Vince Carter just this season.

Who do you think Michael Redd would rather have defending him, KA? I wonder.

 

[TheEnemy]

Wow.
Wow.
WOW
WOW
WOW
WOW
WOW
Kobe is more clutch??? Whatabout 13 points in 35 seconds against the world champs last year? Howabout the fact that he got 14 points tonight in the fourth when he was basically cold most of the night. Kobe being more clutch is simply not true. Don't let his 3 championship rings fool you, that was shaq's work. Bad back Mac and Shaq together get you 3 rings too.

Kobe is a better playmaker? WOW. Kobe is a BALLHOG. Tracy is a better playmaker, no doubt about it. He doesn't take THIRTY shots a game either. Mcgrady makes his teammates MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better. They're 9-4 with him, and 0-8 without him. They're FG % is higher with him. When tracy was in orlando, his teams usually sucked and he was over .500%. Kobe's LA teams have sucked and last year he got like 34 wins. Sorry, but tracy is better.

As for Defence, I'm takin TMac.

You gotta be crazy to take Mac on defense. This is not even debatable. Kobe can be a lock down defender when he wants to be. Just ask Mac himself, Carter, Ray Ray. Kobe does gamble a lot on defense though but he gives twice the effort on the defensive end. Kobe 4x 1st team defensive. Mac 0.

I would say playmaking is about even. This is debatable but there is no hard evidence to support either or. Both players averaged almost exactly the same amount of assists per game throughout their careers. Kobe4.4 Mac4.3

I think both players are pretty clutch. I've seen Tracy drop some clutch bombs but again this one has to go to Kobe. He's hit some big shots in his career and there's clear evidence that Kobe has hit many more game winners than T Mac. It also really depends on your definition of clutch. Game winner clutch? Tough shot clutch? Kobe wins this one on statictics but I don't doubt T Mac's ability and wilingness to take the big shots.

I think both players are pretty close talent wise but I would have to take Kobe. Kobe is a 3x Champion. You can say what you want about it was all Shaq but truth of the matter is those Championships were won by playing as a team.From Phil to Kobe and Shaq making eachother better to the role players like Horry, Fisher, Fox, Shaw, Harper. Arguing it was all Shaq is not a rational argument. Tracy also has on his resume two of the biggest choke job series in playoff history.

I would say the main thing that separates the two is desire. I would take Kobe and his selfish play at times but also his competitive nature and desire over Mac's complacency at times. I'm a big T Mac fan too, he's a lot of fun to watch and a lot more likeable than Kobe but Kobe is competitive to the point of being a prick. You know you're good when everyone hates you.

 

[Zyphen]

I give Kobe the edge. They have very similar talents but Kobe has a more competitive mindset. This is not to say Mac isn't competitive, just less so than Kobe.

Mac has the ability to be a premiere defender but he got lazy after Toronto. Now in Houston, he's suddenly realizing that he needs to be more complete to be at the top. (credit Gundy)

Mac still has to erase that black mark in Orlando. Kobe is pulling crap teammates around too but Mac just completely mailed that season after the horrid start. Now Mac has a better coach and a solid #2. So I'm not surprised his more promising situation led him to try harder and display his full talents. But the difference with Kobe is that he never mails it in no matter how hopeless it seems or how bad his team is. At least I haven't seen it.

 

[KingKong]

You gotta be crazy to take Mac on defense. This is not even debatable. Kobe can be a lock down defender when he wants to be. Just ask Mac himself, Carter, Ray Ray. Kobe does gamble a lot on defense though but he gives twice the effort on the defensive end. Kobe 4x 1st team defensive. Mac 0.

I would say playmaking is about even. This is debatable but there is no hard evidence to support either or. Both players averaged almost exactly the same amount of assists per game throughout their careers. Kobe4.4 Mac4.3

I think both players are pretty clutch. I've seen Tracy drop some clutch bombs but again this one has to go to Kobe. He's hit some big shots in his career and there's clear evidence that Kobe has hit many more game winners than T Mac. It also really depends on your definition of clutch. Game winner clutch? Tough shot clutch? Kobe wins this one on statictics but I don't doubt T Mac's ability and wilingness to take the big shots.

I think both players are pretty close talent wise but I would have to take Kobe. Kobe is a 3x Champion. You can say what you want about it was all Shaq but truth of the matter is those Championships were won by playing as a team.From Phil to Kobe and Shaq making eachother better to the role players like Horry, Fisher, Fox, Shaw, Harper. Arguing it was all Shaq is not a rational argument. Tracy also has on his resume two of the biggest choke job series in playoff history.

I would say the main thing that separates the two is desire. I would take Kobe and his selfish play at times but also his competitive nature and desire over Mac's complacency at times. I'm a big T Mac fan too, he's a lot of fun to watch and a lot more likeable than Kobe but Kobe is competitive to the point of being a prick. You know you're good when everyone hates you.

Couldn't have summed it up better.