Maybe we should get him an ankle brace first.
[Game] Kings @ Warriors 10:30 PM EST 7:30 PM PST
- Thread starter lwc
- Start date
Maybe we should get him an ankle brace first.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
This is the longest fourth quarter of all time. They need to change the "two minutes to play" announcement to "two minutes to wait."
Ben would be a much better player if he got significantly stronger. He was all over that Brandon Rush dunk, but he wasn't strong enough to send it back. And it's the same problem with absorbing contact inside, not just getting to loose balls but actually securing them, pulling in rebounds in traffic, getting around screens. He's playing the right way most of the time he's just getting out-muscled by pretty much everybody. Also, Eric Moreland needs to play a lot more! C'mon George!
lawlman91
Starter
they are not the only reason. warriors are a good team
i didnt intend to make an excuse, just saying what i saw. warriors are good and got calls, and thats it
Boogie_Fever
G-League
The league is stupidly playing into the Warriors' hands by trying to emulate them. Get big and go slow. Smash this sissy a** small ball.
It's hard for me to think of a recent player who frustrates me more than Willie Cauley-Stein. He's exactly the type of player I usually love -- a speeding bullet of shotblocking, smothering defensive energy -- and yet more often than not he's hurting the team when he's out there. Like Ben he needs to spend a lot of time in the weight room and then he needs to learn to box out and attack rebounds the same way he attacks shots in the paint. That's your job man! You're 7 feet tall! We need him to get better because we're a poor defensive team without him and he's not playing well enough right now to really justify an increase in minutes. In the mean time, Eric Moreland should be a part of the rotation. Even in garbage time today he brought a level of toughness and physicality that our other PFs aren't capable of.
Or were you talking about Ben?
PurpleHaze
All-Star
Can we just get to girls, girls, girls, or something. This season has turned hopeful to frustrating so far. Ole!!
theclash4u5
Starter
Soon to be 6-13 after Dallas wins by 8-11 on Monday. Count on it.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Do we get Cuz back to see a DeMarcus Cousins vs. Zaza Pachulia matchup? Cuz if we do I'm not counting on it.
lawlman91
Starter
home sweet homeAfter all the hype in the off season, this team has been such a disappointment.
Just another "better luck next year" season to round out the decade long rebuild.
At least we got rid of the chance of blowing another high draft pick with that philly trade.
3-7 shooting in 27mins. 1opts 5asts 3 rebs 3stls 1blk.
You posted incorrect stats.
Believe it or not, Brick was talking about Ben.
After the 1st half, he said Ben was invisible. I don't know how you could call him invisible when he was one of our most active players all around the floor. Hustling on offense and defense, but just not getting a lot of shot opportunities. McLemore had 2 shot attempts entire 1st half... Casspi 6, Belinelli 8, and Gay 14(?).
McLemore played great D tonight, but it doesn't even matter when the other team has so many players who can score.
K
KingMilz
Guest
Yeah Memphis did a great job off that when they lost by 50
The Grizz actually gave the Warriors some fits. And the only effectiveness the Cavs had was by controlling the pace and playing defense. Grizz were a good wing player short of really challenging Golden State. Their window may be closing though. Not just due to age, but contracts and salary room to get the extra piece they need.
The Hammer
All-Star
Lol, it's posts like this that make me wonder what fans are watching. Holden state is not "sissy ball". They have dominant defensive players in green, bogut, igay and klay. They've been a top 3 defense this season and we're the best last year. They have an unstoppable offensive unit that no one in the league has come close to figuring out.
"Get big and go slow" has become a new cop out around here as I'd that's the root of all our problems. It isnt
One game and the Warriors can do that.
The Grizz won two out of the first three games last year.
Kingston Jamaica
Bench
I have a problem with this negativity. Remember, NOBODY has won them yet. It would have been surprising if the DMC-less Kings would have done it, especially when some of the Kings players did not have their best night.
KingsFanGER
Starter
I think it was encouraging, that we at least gave them fits in the first quarter and were respectable in the second. Warriors stepped on the gas pedal in the second half, but they at least needed to give full effort and couldn't coast the whole game.
The Warriors broadcasting team was actually talking about us very respectful and was pointing out our good game planning, when we broke up nearly every alley-oup play by Green and Ezeli in the first half.
I'm not worried, that the Warriors, who are the rightful champion and a dominant force for years to come, were blowing us out, but more that we don't see the same kind of effort and gameplanning every night.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Anyone that went into this game thinking that the Kings were going to come away with a victory was living in fantasy land. The Warriors are the current world champions, and have yet to lose a game. loyality and optimism is one thing, but I think some of you are in denial. Did I personally hope that we would be the team to end the Warriors winning streak? Sure! Would I go to Las Vegas and put money on it? No! Do you think I'm stupid? Currently, we're not a good basketball team. Why we're not a good team is a topic I won't go into right now, and I'm sure everyone has their opinion on the subject.
No, we don't have Cousins right now, which is a decent excuse. But the league doesn't care about excuses. Excuses are only for coaches trying to hold on to their job, and for fans trying to make sense out of the losing. You go to war with what you have, and if that's not enough, you lose. Pure and simple. So personally, I'm tired of excuses. I'm tired of hearing that if Willie Cauley-Stein could put on some muscle. we might win more games. There are a lot of problems with this team, and WCS is the least of them. Am I angry? Your damm right I'am. Once again we're underachieving. Why? I don't have a definitive answer there, but it appears on the surface that we have a team divided. Some are buying into Karl's scheme, and some aren't. Not surprisingly, the one's that are, are players whose style of play fits what Karl is trying to do.
By no means am I endorsing what Karl is doing, and it wouldn't even be a subject to bring up if the team was winning. Example: I loved Gerald Wallace when we drafted him, and like everyone else, I wanted to see him play. But Adelman is like a lot of experienced coaches. He doesn't like rookies. They give coaches grey hair. Point is, I really couldn't complain too much because the team was winning. That's not the case right now. So, should Willie Cauley-Stein be playing more, or less minutes. Well, given his position, and our lack of depth at that position without him, I think you could make a case that more is better. Cousins has the highest Per rating on the team at 27.2. Not a surprise. Surprisingly, maybe, Koufos is second at 17.1. Well, you have to admit he doesn't make many mistakes. Gay is third at 16.9 and Rondo fourth at 16.7. Our boy Omri comes in fifth at 14.3, and guess who comes in sixth at 13.6? Our boy Willie.
For those who are big McLemore fans, or maybe a better word would be apologists, his rating is 9.3, the worse of the rotational players. Now I don't think that stats alone give the whole picture, but when I look at a bad stat, and it doesn't surprise me, then there must be some truth there. In other words, the stat backs up what my eye's have been seeing. Please, don't mistake hustle and aggressiveness for good results. They should be a part of good results, but they alone don't complete the picture. Doesn't mean I want to get rid of Ben, but I don't think he would be an important part of the rotation for any contending team. Because he's improving, doesn't mean he should start. I can watch Curry play for five minutes, and see that he knows more about how to play the game than Ben does. Ben is learning, but he's still behind the curve. Of course Curry was born with a basketball in his hands, so no surprise there. It's not about being aggressive, it's about knowing how to use that aggression.
If and when everyone gets on the same page, and starts playing like a team, we'll start winning. But it better happen sooner than later, because we're digging a hole right now, and that hole can become too deep to crawl out of. This is a talented team, but all the pieces aren't perfect fits for what Karl is trying to do. Not easy being a head coach. Sometimes a simple decision can have bigger negative results than one might expect. Example: Lets say that Karl thinks that Curry is a better overall player than McLemore. But that McLemore is a close friend of Cousins. If you bench Ben in favor of Curry, how does Cousins, who is already on the edge of rebellion respond? Now I have no idea how close Ben and Cuz are, but these are things a coach has to think about when dealing with the only superstar on the team. Please remember, I just made up this scenario, so respond in kind.
No, we don't have Cousins right now, which is a decent excuse. But the league doesn't care about excuses. Excuses are only for coaches trying to hold on to their job, and for fans trying to make sense out of the losing. You go to war with what you have, and if that's not enough, you lose. Pure and simple. So personally, I'm tired of excuses. I'm tired of hearing that if Willie Cauley-Stein could put on some muscle. we might win more games. There are a lot of problems with this team, and WCS is the least of them. Am I angry? Your damm right I'am. Once again we're underachieving. Why? I don't have a definitive answer there, but it appears on the surface that we have a team divided. Some are buying into Karl's scheme, and some aren't. Not surprisingly, the one's that are, are players whose style of play fits what Karl is trying to do.
By no means am I endorsing what Karl is doing, and it wouldn't even be a subject to bring up if the team was winning. Example: I loved Gerald Wallace when we drafted him, and like everyone else, I wanted to see him play. But Adelman is like a lot of experienced coaches. He doesn't like rookies. They give coaches grey hair. Point is, I really couldn't complain too much because the team was winning. That's not the case right now. So, should Willie Cauley-Stein be playing more, or less minutes. Well, given his position, and our lack of depth at that position without him, I think you could make a case that more is better. Cousins has the highest Per rating on the team at 27.2. Not a surprise. Surprisingly, maybe, Koufos is second at 17.1. Well, you have to admit he doesn't make many mistakes. Gay is third at 16.9 and Rondo fourth at 16.7. Our boy Omri comes in fifth at 14.3, and guess who comes in sixth at 13.6? Our boy Willie.
For those who are big McLemore fans, or maybe a better word would be apologists, his rating is 9.3, the worse of the rotational players. Now I don't think that stats alone give the whole picture, but when I look at a bad stat, and it doesn't surprise me, then there must be some truth there. In other words, the stat backs up what my eye's have been seeing. Please, don't mistake hustle and aggressiveness for good results. They should be a part of good results, but they alone don't complete the picture. Doesn't mean I want to get rid of Ben, but I don't think he would be an important part of the rotation for any contending team. Because he's improving, doesn't mean he should start. I can watch Curry play for five minutes, and see that he knows more about how to play the game than Ben does. Ben is learning, but he's still behind the curve. Of course Curry was born with a basketball in his hands, so no surprise there. It's not about being aggressive, it's about knowing how to use that aggression.
If and when everyone gets on the same page, and starts playing like a team, we'll start winning. But it better happen sooner than later, because we're digging a hole right now, and that hole can become too deep to crawl out of. This is a talented team, but all the pieces aren't perfect fits for what Karl is trying to do. Not easy being a head coach. Sometimes a simple decision can have bigger negative results than one might expect. Example: Lets say that Karl thinks that Curry is a better overall player than McLemore. But that McLemore is a close friend of Cousins. If you bench Ben in favor of Curry, how does Cousins, who is already on the edge of rebellion respond? Now I have no idea how close Ben and Cuz are, but these are things a coach has to think about when dealing with the only superstar on the team. Please remember, I just made up this scenario, so respond in kind.
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rainmaker
Hall of Famer
That's our biggest issue, Karl's philosophy doesn't align with Vlade's philosophy and the proof of that is in the players Vlade acquired last summer. And it's a byproduct of hiring the coach before the GM.
You're right the league doesn't care about excuses. The league doesn't care about Karl not having a roster which follows his Den model. The league doesn't care that we twice now have hired the coach before the GM under Vivek. The league doesn't care if our roster is more suited for one style and Karl is stubborn about fitting it into another. Our organization has no one to blame but itself for creating this current 6-12 mess.
Simply put, Karl not having the pieces he wants matters not. The underlying issue is can another coach with a different system get more out of this roster. I think the answer is clearly yes. And it's no one's fault but our own for creating that situation. Some Kings fans have a habit at looking at our situation thru more of a victim's perspective. But ask any neutral/outsider, and this would also be true if we were asked about any other team in the league which hasn't cracked 30 wins in 7 years and is currently 6-12, and there'd likely be no other conclusion than that organization is poorly run and there's a clear breakdown before the players even hit the court.
Remember all the fans who acted insulted the national media didn't give us more respect in Sept/Oct? The fans who seem to think the national media has it out for Sacramento? Well right now their perspective would be correct, one of if not the the best bigs in the game, a Rondo career resurrection but in the end, same old Sacramento. Losers don't put it together and win for a reason.
Also, as great as Vlade's off season was and as great of a presence he's been, that too matters not if Karl doesn't align with his vision and he keeps him around and has kept him around. We're not a rebuilding team. This is a results based league and situation. And keeping Karl for this season right now is an enormous knock against Vlade/Vivek. Those two bet on Karl working this year when they had an entire off season to replace him. And that's a lost bet right now as well as the most important bet made towards this season.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
rainmaker said:
Spot on! Fans tend to lose their objectivity when they talk about their own team. Of course no one wants to believe the national media when it's all negative. Myself included. But to think that a team that has dwelled in the bottom half of the league for the last eight years is going to suddenly blossom into a world beater isn't realistic. Yes, miracles do happen on occasion, but they're rare. On paper, yes, we look like a vastly improved team, and maybe we would be with different leadership. Maybe! The irony to me, is that our two best players are the worse fit for Karl's system. I think Karl knows that and that's why the whole lets trade Cousins thing came up.
Vlade is in a tricky situation. He didn't hire Karl, but to some extent, he's responsible for Karl's results. I think he has respect for Karl's accomplishments, and he knows the national media is looking over his shoulder waiting for the whole thing to blow up. They expect it to blow up. So even if he thinks the Karl experiment isn't going to work, he wants it to appear that Karl had a legit shot at making it work before firing him. However, while waiting, the season is going down the toilet. So when is enough, enough? That's a question that Vlade has to answer. And if you do indeed fire Karl, who do you replace him with? I don't envy Vlade right now. In his heart of hearts he most likely wishes that Cuz returns and the Kings reel off 8 or 9 wins in a row. But right now, that would seem like a miracle.
Blob
Starter
The point you are missing is Vlade advocated for Karl hire when he was a consultant before being named GM. Vlade has bet on his success through behind the scenes endorsement. The question to ask is to what degree does Vlade hold Karl responsible for the performance of the team minus Boogie? It has been pathetic besides Milwaukee and the first three quarters of Charlotte (and first quarter last night v GSW before his premature subs).
This degree of culpability is an unknown because on one hand (1) he has to acknowledge the void without the best player and (2) be disgusted by their sporadic performance in his absence.
The revelation for me in the absence of Boogie is that our secondary scorers who need to do more in the absence of Boogie are incapable of doing more. Namely Ben and Marco and Rudy. Ben has no game IMHO worthy of a legitimate starting SG. Marco cannot create his shot as maybe was hoped in the pre-season. He needs multiple screens and passing game a la San Antonio.
Rudy is a streaky scorer whose efficiency is hindered by lack of 3 ball and ability to get to the stripe. Then there's WCS who doesn't look at the rim unless he is standing under it. This is what Karl has to work with and these variables will not change with a new coach.
On the defensive side there is no one who can defend on the wing because Vlade did not acquire a wing defender this summer. All these factors have to go into a decision whether to replace Karl or not.
Finally there is the intangible quality. A team takes on its persona of a coach. This may be Karl's biggest negative. He does not seem to have the ability rally and inspire. His guys seem to play hard in spite of him not because of him. I don't know I can't get a good read on it but I don't think his relationship with his players is particularly strong and this does not bode well long term.
K
KingMilz
Guest
Than they lost 3 out of the last 3
bajaden
Hall of Famer
First, I base my posts on what I think are facts, not rumors. Vlade may or may not have advocated for Karl before he was hired. I never heard him say he did, but then maybe I missed it. And if he did, was it an either/or of Karl/Corbin? That's an easy choice. Regardless, it has nothing to do with what I posted, other than the fact that I mentioned that Vlade didn't hire Karl. I do think that Vlade did his best to improve the team overall, and to find players that fit Karl's system. Doesn't mean he accomplished everything he set out to accomplish. It's not like you go down to Macy's with a bag full of money and buy what you want. It's a tad more tricky than that. I mean he did go after a very good perimeter defender who decided to go to Dallas instead.
Everything else you mention is the nuts and bolts of the team, and I think we all know what they are. As far as Karl's ability to inspire, that's up to the players individually. I mean Casspi looks very inspired to me and he's playing very well. Of late, Belinelli is playing well. No problem with Koufos either, but then he played for Karl before. Rondo is certainly playing like an inspired player. Like I said in another post, I think this is a team divided, and if Cuz is the divider, then I don't see a resolution. And I don't mean to infer that Cuz is responsible for some players not buying in. I think Gay is struggling with the dribble drive offense. When Gay is on the floor with Cousins, he's at his best. He knows how to play off of Cousins when he gets doubled. Take Cousins off the floor, and in some situations Gay will struggle. Especially when a teams defense is focused on him.
Last night Gay went up against one of the better defenders in the league. The game before they doubled him every timed he touched the ball. There are explanations for everything, but at the end of the day, were still losing, and pointing fingers at any one player isn't going to solve that. Belinelli is exactly what I thought he would be, and I'm fine with that. I didn't expect him to be Dwayne Wade, and to expect him to suddenly be something he's never been is ridiculous. If I have a problem with him, it's that he turns the ball over too much. Other than that, he's as expected. McLemore I'd trade while he still has some value.
Spot on. One of the more strange narratives i've heard is that Vlade somehow has his hands clean of the Karl hire. Just not true. He had every opportunity this summer to go get "his guy", especially with all the Karl-Cousins rumors swirling around. But he didn't and he backed Karl as his coach.
I think some roster construction questions need to be asked as well. Yes, we got more talent this summer, but we're just as helpless as we've always been without Cousins on the floor. Why? With him on the floor, the roster is working as intended and we're playing .500 ball and basically had a chance to win every game he was on the floor. But that's the danger of having the highest USG player in the league; when he's not playing, where do the shots go? The other top USG guys in the league (Westy, Bron, Steph, Harden, etc.) all haven't missed time this season, but even if they did, those teams have #2 guys who can step up and fill that role in Love, Durant, Klay, Howard/Lawson. We don't. Koufos, WCS, Ben, Casspi and Beli need help from others to be effective. Rondo is probably the worst scoring PG in the league. Darren and Rudy are the only guys left who are able to create their own shot, but both aren't capable of filling that massive 35% USG hole that Cousins leaves when he's not playing.
That's not even touching on Cousins being our best rebounder and defensive anchor, both of which take a massive hit when he's on the sidelines.
This isn't me blaming Vlade or Karl either, just showing the reality of our roster construction. We're a team of role guys designed to fit around a high USG player. When he's not in, that game-plan goes out the window.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Well your right, but your just stating the obvious. Were not as good without Cousins on the floor. There was an implication that Vlade was at fault. Or that Karl, indirectly, was his hire, by his abdication of firing him. The question is, did Vlade have any influence on the hiring of Karl. Did Vivek give him a call and ask him who he would hire, and Vlade said I'd hire Karl, or did Vivek give Vlade a call and say I'm thinking of hiring Karl, what do you think of him? And Vlade said, well, he's certainly better than what you have now. Thing is, we have no idea what actually happened, or how it happened, or when it happened. I don't have an agenda here so I don't care. The question is, what do we do now if this continues?
I find it hard to put much blame on Vlade. When he took over, there were leaks coming from everywhere. Cousins agent was running a campaign to get rid of Karl. PDA was spreading lies all over the place to pull the rug out from under Vlade. Then you had the trade Cousins rumors, which Karl denied starting. If your Vlade, you don't know who to trust or believe. So, in my humble opinion, the last thing he needed to do was to create another issue by firing Karl. Vlade has always believed in bringing people to together. Why would he suddenly change? Not saying he made all the right choices, but his choices didn't surprise me.
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