[Game] Kings vs Jazz 2/28/12

[The Hammer]

Very intriguing question.

If it is a choice between:
* IT running the show in crunchtime, the offense working and winning regularly (but icing out Tyreke and him not getting any better)
or
* Tyreke running the show, having the offense slow to a crawl with many failed offensive possessions in crunchtime and losing regularly (but leaving open the possibility of Tyreke somehow getting better)

I'd choose IT.
Tyreke had his chance to run this offense for over 2 years - and he ran it into the ground. If he can't find a way to improve without the ball in his hands as the primary ballhandler, than I'm sorry - the Kings can't afford him learning at the glacial pace he's shown.

The team is more important than Tyreke.

Not sure if you watched the last two years, or if you did, knew at all what was going on. Outside of a about three vauge plays, more like motifs, there literally was no offensive system in place. There was no offense. Let me say that one more time. There was no offense.

We now have an offense, still pretty rudimentary, but getting more established every game. When Smart first put that offense in, Tyreke was primary in running it, and his numbers were phenomenal for that time period. I don't have it in front of me, but before IT's emergence, and after Smart took over, Reke jumped up from like 4.8 ast per game to around 7.5, and scoring something like 22 a game and grabbing 6 boards over that stretch of games. This was really the first point guard role within a professional offense he had been in his entire pro career. And he didn't have much of it in his one year of college.

Thing is, IT has had what four solid years at running a team within a legitimate offense. He has the floor director thing down pat, plus the little dude can dribble his *** off and keep the dribble alive very well.

 

[Kingster]

He can't make the offense flow because he no longer has the ball to do it. Simple enough concept really. Isiah is very ball dominant. Now if we can pry it out of his hands long enoguh to get both he and Reke going at the same time -- an art which Beno had somewhat mastered in the past, then we are better off. If we instead gain Isiah and lose Reke, we are no better off.

Tyreke is going to have to learn to move without the ball. He's done some of that in the past; he just needs to do a lot more.

 

[Kingster]

Not sure if you watched the last two years, or if you did, knew at all what was going on. Outside of a about three vauge plays, more like motifs, there literally was no offensive system in place. There was no offense. Let me say that one more time. There was no offense.

We now have an offense, still pretty rudimentary, but getting more established every game. When Smart first put that offense in, Tyreke was primary in running it, and his numbers were phenomenal for that time period. I don't have it in front of me, but before IT's emergence, and after Smart took over, Reke jumped up from like 4.8 ast per game to around 7.5, and scoring something like 22 a game and grabbing 6 boards over that stretch of games. This was really the first point guard role within a professional offense he had been in his entire pro career. And he didn't have much of it in his one year of college.

Thing is, IT has had what four solid years at running a team within a legitimate offense. He has the floor director thing down pat, plus the little dude can dribble his *** off and keep the dribble alive very well.

People talk about the number of years that IT and Tyreke has played pg, but they fail to mention the number of games that they played during that time. If you look at games, not years, then IT doesn't have an advantage. Also, how many years or games do you think it should take before a player who is a poor outside shooter should realize that he shouldn't take a 3 point shot (while guarded) in the last 2 minutes of a closely contested game?

 

[upinsmoke]

So i think it has been established that Cuz is better than the jazz's frontcourt combined right? I used to think Big Al would be good for us because of his post presence but I can see clealy now he is totally unmotivated on D and on the glass.

Cuz = Beast on route to the HOF

 

[Bricklayer]

Tyreke is going to have to learn to move without the ball. He's done some of that in the past; he just needs to do a lot more.

Which is just dumb. That's a waste of a unique talent. That's like saying DeMarcus should park it at the three point line.

+IT -Reke we go backwards. We don't even go very far forward in ball movemnet -- their Ast/36 + Ast/percentges are nearly identical. Its only a step forward if you get both guys going at once and find them both moments to shine.

 

[Npliam]

Which is just dumb. That's a waste of a unique talent. That's like saying DeMarcus should park it at the three point line.

+IT -Reke we go backwards. We don't even go very far forward in ball movemnet -- their Ast/36 + Ast/percentges are nearly identical. Its only a step forward if you get both guys going at once and find them both moments to shine.

How is a player moving without the ball dumb? How does it waste the unique talent that Tyreke has? Being a great slasher and moving without the ball aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[Section 101]

Which is just dumb. That's a waste of a unique talent. That's like saying DeMarcus should park it at the three point line.

+IT -Reke we go backwards. We don't even go very far forward in ball movemnet -- their Ast/36 + Ast/percentges are nearly identical. Its only a step forward if you get both guys going at once and find them both moments to shine.

Except Evans is way more efficient and effective when he gets the ball in motion vs going 1 on 5. I don't disagree he needs the ball more, but he needs it in the right spots. And that is more on him moving to free up than IT just giving him the ball.

 

[Bricklayer]

How is a player moving without the ball dumb? How does it waste the unique talent that Tyreke has? Being a great slasher and moving without the ball aren't mutually exclusive.

No they're not. And Reke needing to continue to get better off the ball is inarguable -- obviously that's all good. Reke actually being PLAYED off the ball is not. He is one of the most uniquely talented WITH ball players of his size that I have ever seen, and I have seen 30 years worth of NBA now. Only an idiot would take someone with that unique gift, and go make them play against their strengths. Along the way we can Jimmer into a postup guard, Cousins into Channing Frye, and Chuck Hayes into an alley opp target.

 

[pshn80]

Which is just dumb. That's a waste of a unique talent. That's like saying DeMarcus should park it at the three point line.

+IT -Reke we go backwards. We don't even go very far forward in ball movemnet -- their Ast/36 + Ast/percentges are nearly identical. Its only a step forward if you get both guys going at once and find them both moments to shine.

Brick, I agree that Tyreke's offensive talent is somewhat compromised with IT starting but the net effect is clearly, to me, good and getting better.

 

[pshn80]

No they're not. And Reke needing to continue to get better off the ball is inarguable -- obviously that's all good. Reke actually being PLAYED off the ball is not. He is one of the most uniquely talented WITH ball players of his size that I have ever seen, and I have seen 30 years worth of NBA now. Only an idiot would take someone with that unique gift, and go make them play against their strengths. Along the way we can Jimmer into a postup guard, Cousins into Channing Frye, and Chuck Hayes into an alley opp target.

I'm that idiot. I would do the IT pg thing again in a heart beat. I think it will lead to a better second half by the Kings.

 

[Bricklayer]

I'm that idiot. I would do the IT pg thing again in a heart beat. I think it will lead to a better second half by the Kings.

If you came to me and told me that we could have a better second half by getting Paul Milsap and letting him be the post guy whiel moving Cousins out to the three point line to shoot threes, I would tell you exactly what to do with yourself, and the horse you rode in on while you were at it. There are larger considerations.

 

[Kingster]

Which is just dumb. That's a waste of a unique talent. That's like saying DeMarcus should park it at the three point line.

+IT -Reke we go backwards. We don't even go very far forward in ball movemnet -- their Ast/36 + Ast/percentges are nearly identical. Its only a step forward if you get both guys going at once and find them both moments to shine.

It's never a waste to add something to your game. He should be able to get better off the ball during the season.

 

[Bricklayer]

It's never a waste to add something to your game. He should be able to get better off the ball during the season.

Of course its never a waste. He's better off ball now than he was before, he'll be better off ball in the future than he is now. But he'll never be elite off the ball, or anything close to it. On ball is where he can do things few can.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

I think the obvious reason Smart loves IT, and is putting the ball in his hands over Evans is the pace Thomas plays at .. the pace both Westy and Smart have been begging Evans to play at.

For whatever reason, and maybe its conditioning .. maybe its just that IT is faster, but Evans walks the ball up the court way to much. He always has. Off of rebounds or steals he'll push it, but after made baskets he lets the other teams defense set almost all the time. I don't think it has to do with playmaking, or running the offense, or assist/turnover numbers. Its pace .. its the run n gun league the NBA has become, and IT is playing that way.

 

[Spike]

Not sure if you watched the last two years, or if you did, knew at all what was going on. Outside of a about three vauge plays, more like motifs, there literally was no offensive system in place. There was no offense. Let me say that one more time. There was no offense.

We now have an offense, still pretty rudimentary, but getting more established every game. When Smart first put that offense in, Tyreke was primary in running it, and his numbers were phenomenal for that time period. I don't have it in front of me, but before IT's emergence, and after Smart took over, Reke jumped up from like 4.8 ast per game to around 7.5, and scoring something like 22 a game and grabbing 6 boards over that stretch of games. This was really the first point guard role within a professional offense he had been in his entire pro career. And he didn't have much of it in his one year of college.

Yes.

Thing is, IT has had what four solid years at running a team within a legitimate offense. He has the floor director thing down pat, plus the little dude can dribble his *** off and keep the dribble alive very well.

This probably has some more to do with why Smart has given the ball to IT over Evans, but it befuddles me given the progress that Evans WAS making. IT is just as prone to over-dribbling at times as others, and he has missed open layups to others on the team because of tunnel vision. Nobody is perfect, and everyone has flaws.

 

[Mal]

IT was NOT the point guard at Washington until about 1/3 of the way through his last season when starting point guard Abdul Gaddy tore his ACL. Washington's back up was Venoy Overton. IT handled the ball a great deal, but played off the ball most of the time. When he finally started at point he really shined, however. Overton remained the back up, change of pace guy. So, if you want to be correct, Evans has been playing point far longer than Thomas. Thomas is just better at it, and has better court vision and timing.

 

[Bricklayer]

I think the obvious reason Smart loves IT, and is putting the ball in his hands over Evans is the pace Thomas plays at .. the pace both Westy and Smart have been begging Evans to play at.

For whatever reason, and maybe its conditioning .. maybe its just that IT is faster, but Evans walks the ball up the court way to much. He always has. Off of rebounds or steals he'll push it, but after made baskets he lets the other teams defense set almost all the time. I don't think it has to do with playmaking, or running the offense, or assist/turnover numbers. Its pace .. its the run n gun league the NBA has become, and IT is playing that way.

I think that's distinctly possible, and its also absolutely the worst of all possible reasons. Pace is irrelevant and has nothing to do with winning. In fact the defining trait of most championship teams is their ability toi slow it down and bang it out in the halfcourt, the way most playoff wars are waged. We're already 4th in the league in pace -- yes you heard that right. For all Kings' fans constant complaining its because they simply have no clue what a normal pace looks like. We've been Top 10 all year. Right now we're 4th. And as far as that equaliing winning, we're tied with Washington, one notch ahead of OKC. Miami is 7th. Chicago 20th. Pace is for pretties and style, not for winning. The irrelevancies pulling down on Smart's tenure here are all largely born of Nellieitis.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

I think that's distinctly possible, and its also absolutely the worst of all possible reasons. Pace is irrelevant and has nothing to do with winning. In fact the defining trait of most championship teams is their ability toi slow it down and bang it out in the halfcourt, the way most playoff wars are waged. We're already 4th in the league in pace -- yes you heard that right. For all Kings' fans constant complaining its because they simply have no clue what a normal pace looks like. We've been Top 10 all year. Right now we're 4th. And as far as that equaliing winning, we're tied with Washington, one notch ahead of OKC. Miami is 7th. Chicago 20th. Pace is for pretties and style, not for winning. The irrelevancies pulling down on Smart's tenure here are all largely born of Nellieitis.

Pace may have been the wrong word .. well, the right word but the wrong statistical definition. The Pace stat just means how many possessions you use a game, which we are 4th in .. and is pretty meaningless.

'Playing fast' is just a way for athletic teams who don't understand how to run an offense get easy buckets. Athletic, young buckets. I absolutely agree that running and running and running doesn't = winning .. at least not at a championship level. But that also requires a level of defense we are not even close to playing.

When I say pace I mean 'getting into the offense as fast as possible' and 'running while getting good shots' .. Not just running for the sake of running, then throwing up junk to increase where we land in the pace statistic.

And I just think IT is doing it better than Evans was right now. I saw Thomas do something last night that I can't remember seeing the Kings do for a long time. Thomas brought the ball up the court off a made basket, and withing 4 seconds his FIRST pass was to Cousins in the post. Cousins with the ball, in the post, with about 20 seconds to spare. I love that. Its literally our best possible halfcourt option.

 

[sidney]

Tyreke does struggle with his timing to his first move. Several times a game he crosses half court at 17-18 seconds. Dribbles and evaluates for another 5-7 and hangs out by the 3 point line. Makes his first move or pass under 10 and now guys are scrambling and making bad choices. I think if he makes that first move at 15 instead of 10 we'd have a much better chance at higher % shots. Just one of those things he has to learn.

 

[The_Jamal]

I think that's distinctly possible, and its also absolutely the worst of all possible reasons. Pace is irrelevant and has nothing to do with winning. In fact the defining trait of most championship teams is their ability toi slow it down and bang it out in the halfcourt, the way most playoff wars are waged. We're already 4th in the league in pace -- yes you heard that right. For all Kings' fans constant complaining its because they simply have no clue what a normal pace looks like. We've been Top 10 all year. Right now we're 4th. And as far as that equaliing winning, we're tied with Washington, one notch ahead of OKC. Miami is 7th. Chicago 20th. Pace is for pretties and style, not for winning. The irrelevancies pulling down on Smart's tenure here are all largely born of Nellieitis.

Pace is certainly not irreleveant. You just noted the two best teams in the NBA are in the top 10 for running. The difference (and a mighty big one) is that Miami and OKC can play defense with playing an uptempo style. What needs to happen is to get Reke at the 2 guard, get a real SF, and let IT+Reke develop a back-court chemistry

 

[Bricklayer]

Pace is certainly not irreleveant. You just noted the two best teams in the NBA are in the top 10 for running. The difference (and a mighty big one) is that Miami and OKC can play defense with playing an uptempo style. What needs to happen is to get Reke at the 2 guard, get a real SF, and let IT+Reke develop a back-court chemistry

Its a fluke at best, adn those teams haven't won anything yet.. The third best team (CHI) is 20th. Last year's champs are 17th. Last year those Mavs were 20th. The Lakers two title teams were 13th and 6th. The championship Celtics were 19th. And so on. Pace does not track with winning big. In fact truly excessive pace tracks with coming up short, because it invariably means you are run n gunning instead of playing the serious halfcourt basketball it takes to win in the playoffs. Just ask Don 25 years of postseason failure Nelson for a resume.

 

[sidney]

Pace is certainly not irreleveant. You just noted the two best teams in the NBA are in the top 10 for running. The difference (and a mighty big one) is that Miami and OKC can play defense with playing an uptempo style. What needs to happen is to get Reke at the 2 guard, get a real SF, and let IT+Reke develop a back-court chemistry

how are the two most ball dominant, best ball handlers going to ever work well together? That's like putting rubio and nash together and telling them to develop chemistry. Each guy needs the ball in their hands

 

[pshn80]

Tyreke does struggle with his timing to his first move. Several times a game he crosses half court at 17-18 seconds. Dribbles and evaluates for another 5-7 and hangs out by the 3 point line. Makes his first move or pass under 10 and now guys are scrambling and making bad choices. I think if he makes that first move at 15 instead of 10 we'd have a much better chance at higher % shots. Just one of those things he has to learn.

Well said. It's the kind of thing that has happened so many times. At times I would wonder at Evans' inability to understand this. He may get better but IT is already much better - not a hard thing to do.

 

[bajaden]

Wow, a lot of different issues being discussed here, along with IT > Tyreke. Well, I think everybody is right to some degree. Bricky is right about our winning record not matching our running game, and that to ever win a championship, you better have a good halfcourt game. Ask the Suns and the Warriors. Now my personal opinion is that we're not playing better simply because IT is the PG and Tyreke is the SF. I think its because IT is on the floor and Salmons isn't. However, now when the bench comes in, things tend to go south at times.

Tyreke and IT are both very good ball handlers, which is Jimmer's biggest problem at the moment, (a different discussion) and what is limiting his minutes. And both IT and Tryeke handle the ball a lot. So size aside, there is some similarity to their games, except a big glaring one. The ability to hit a jumpshot with consistency. Its the only thing standing between Tyreke and stardom. It doesn't even have to be a 3 pt shot. If he could just shoot 46 or 47% from 15 feet with a pull up stop and pop, his whole offensive world changes. Wade seldom takes a 3 pt shot, although he has gotten more consistent with it. But Wade has a terrific midrange game.

I've said before, I don't care what you want to call Tyreke. PG, SG, Combo guard, whatever. He's uniquely skilled, and a valuable piece of the team going forward. Again, personally, I think Westphal set the team back at least a year with his lack of developing our young players. You have to have a big ego and thick skin to be a head coach, and Westphal had neither. Which is why he went head to head with Cousins. He thought Cousins questionling was disrespectful. At Kentucky, Calapari thought Cousins was the most intelligent player on his team because of? His questioning! All a matter of how you look at things.

Bottom line is, the team has some problems. No depth off the bench, and a few parts that just don't fit together. Put Hickson on the Suns with Steve Nash, and he's a better player from the get go. Salmons from 5 years ago might be helpful, but he appears to have lost a step on defense, (he's still not bad) and he's always been undersized at the SF position. His offensive game has been very inconsistent, and thats being kind. Hayes next to Cousins just doesn't work as well as Thompson next to Cousins. But Hayes and Hickson together is terrible. Remove Hickson, and replace him with Kaman, and you improve immediately. It would be an expensive move though at 14 mil this year for a guy off the bench. But hey, winning costs money!

 

[IfAt1st]

At this point, I think it's impossible to say that Tyreke isn't aware that he initiates the offense too slowly.

How many hundreds of failed possessions would it take to convince him?
How many times would the coach have to publicly implore him to bring the ball up quicker, and say "that's something Tyreke needs to work on"?

At this point, we HAVE to assume that Tyreke's slow play initiation is purposeful.
We all know he can read the clock.

The real question is - WHY would Tyreke go against his coach's demands, constantly for years?
He's basically lost the Ballhandler title for this team to IT because of it.

Why would he stubbornly refuse to initiate the offense quicker?

 

[Glenn]

At this point, I think it's impossible to say that Tyreke isn't aware that he initiates the offense too slowly.

How many hundreds of failed possessions would it take to convince him?
How many times would the coach have to publicly implore him to bring the ball up quicker, and say "that's something Tyreke needs to work on"?

At this point, we HAVE to assume that Tyreke's slow play initiation is purposeful.
We all know he can read the clock.

The real question is - WHY would Tyreke go against his coach's demands, constantly for years?
He's basically lost the Ballhandler title for this team to IT because of it.

Why would he stubbornly refuse to initiate the offense quicker?

You must know the answer so why not let us know? Either you know or are just trying to stir up an argument.

 

[Npliam]

Of course its never a waste. He's better off ball now than he was before, he'll be better off ball in the future than he is now. But he'll never be elite off the ball, or anything close to it. On ball is where he can do things few can.

While this is true I am not sure that him doing those things that few can, leads to winning basketball.

 

[Bricklayer]

I simply can't wait if we get Van Gundy next year to hear the howls from this board as he is racing up and down the sideline screaming at Reke "slow it up"' "slow it up!"

 

[IfAt1st]

You must know the answer so why not let us know? Either you know or are just trying to stir up an argument.

Actually, no, I don't know and can't imagine what could explain it.

Don't tell me I'm trying to stir up an argument.
I'm asking a question.

 

[BMiller52]

I simply can't wait if we get Van Gundy next year to hear the howls from this board as he is racing up and down the sideline screaming at Reke "slow it up"' "slow it up!"

LOL. To be honest with you though I think Reke's future in this league is like a TMac type player at the 2 with a worse J. I think that's how he'd be the best. I wouldn't really want Jeff Van Gundy as coach though, he might fix our defense but I'd rather have Jerry Sloan or someone like that. I wish we could still get Adelman, I am still upset at the Maloofs for letting him go. He would've been the perfect coach for these guys IMO.