[Game] Kings v. Thunder - Wednesday, Dec. 11 - 7PT, 10ET

[Livinthedream]

So Beli 22min,Bagley 23min,Holmes 24 min I am down with a 3 man Big rotation, But why only 69 min for our bigs?
I understand Bagley needs to ease back into his minutes, but why not more min for Belly and Holmes? Was it the 4 fouls?
I kept on wondering why Beli was not in more after he kicked butt for last two games, Is Luke afraid to play Marvin and Holmes together?

Beli was not having a good game. Neither was Cojo. Neither was Yogi. They all got sat in the 2nd half.

 

[Kingster]

You said virtually the same thing in the Holmes thread so I'll make a similar response.

Walton didn't leave him in too long so what's your point?

LOL. Indeed. Walton left Bagley in just long enough to get some of the rust off and to get the win. It was a win-win.

 

[Jkbiker]

Beli was not having a good game. Neither was Cojo. Neither was Yogi. They all got sat in the 2nd half.

So Beli was 2for3 on 3s, 4for8 FG, 5 reb that was not a good game?

 

[Livinthedream]

So Beli was 2for3 on 3s, 4for8 FG, 5 reb that was not a good game?

4 fouls in 20 minutes. Couple of turnovers. He was having a hard time defending.

To be fair, the whole team was off to start the game, but the fouls really dictated minutes for the bigs this game.

 

[Kingster]

We wanted to know from whom the minutes would be subtracted for Bagley. Bagley played 23 minutes last night. Bjelica played 22 minutes; Holmes 24.5 minutes. The 22 minutes of Bjelica is six minutes below his average minutes over the last five games (28 min/game) and Holmes played eleven minutes below his minute average over the last five games (35.5 min/game).

 

[LPKingsFan]

We wanted to know from whom the minutes would be subtracted for Bagley. Bagley played 23 minutes last night. Bjelica played 22 minutes; Holmes 24.5 minutes. The 22 minutes of Bjelica is six minutes below his average minutes over the last five games (28 min/game) and Holmes played eleven minutes below his minute average over the last five games (35.5 min/game).

foul trouble (Holmes) and matchups (OKC only really plays one big at a time) undoubtedly played some role. Will be interesting to see how that plays out moving forward. The Knicks have about 8 power forwards in their rotation, so Walton may be more likely to play two-big lineups on Friday. I’m hoping to see the Holmes/Bagley pair get some run and be successful.

 

[Kingster]

foul trouble (Holmes) and matchups (OKC only really plays one big at a time) undoubtedly played some role. Will be interesting to see how that plays out moving forward. The Knicks have about 8 power forwards in their rotation, so Walton may be more likely to play two-big lineups on Friday. I’m hoping to see the Holmes/Bagley pair get some run and be successful.

Agreed. I'm hoping that when Bagley gets more comfortable his outside shot is going to be good enough to play with Holmes. The athleticism of those two in the lineup would be dynamic.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

So Beli 22min,Bagley 23min,Holmes 24 min I am down with a 3 man Big rotation, But why only 69 min for our bigs?
I understand Bagley needs to ease back into his minutes, but why not more min for Belly and Holmes? Was it the 4 fouls?
I kept on wondering why Beli was not in more after he kicked butt for last two games, Is Luke afraid to play Marvin and Holmes together?

Remember, they just came off their 3rd game in 4 nights on Monday. It was the first home game after the roadie. They likely had some tired legs. And it was MB3’s first game back, with completely fresh legs.

 

[Kingster]

Remember, they just came off their 3rd game in 4 nights on Monday. It was the first home game after the roadie. They likely had some tired legs. And it was MB3’s first game back, with completely fresh legs.

That's why it's going to be interesting to look at this after, say, 10 games. Bagley's minutes aren't going down from 23 minutes, that's for sure. He's just getting his feet wet.

 

[FoxOnTheRun]

That ending was so great for this team. Bogi, whose clearly playing through pain (you can see it in his face) shows incredible patience and knocks down what would be the game winning shot followed up by some sticky D on CP3 by RH. You can just tell that CP3 and his cocky self was trying like hell to break RH's ankles for the highlight instead of just going for the best shot available. When RH turned into Fred Astaire, CP3 panicked and settled for a fade away jumper instead. Womp Womp.

I will say this about OKC, Nader and SGA are very nice players. I wouldn't mind both of those guys in a King's uni.

 

[twslam07]

I was happy with Bagley's effort defensively last night. I hope he keeps it up. His perimeter defense was impressive. He still looked a bit shaky in the pick & roll when he wasn't just completely switching off to the ball handler, but I'm hopeful that will improve (along with understanding rotations better) with time, experience, & coaching. I was also surprised how we didn't seem out muscled when Bagley & Adams were out there as the Cs.

I've said it before, but for the Kings to reach their full potential with this group, they are going to need Bagley to...

1. Become a good defender
2. Be able to handle the C spot to end games
3. Become a consistent 3pt shooter

I think these are all things he can do. He has the work ethic and he gives effort on defense currently. I'll be really interested to see how he looks going into his 3rd-4th season in the league (as big men can take a bit longer to develop), but a big man who can do those 3 things above combined with his athleticism & rebounding is going to be a lot to handle for other teams.

 

[Folsomkingsfan]

I was happy with Bagley's effort defensively last night. I hope he keeps it up. His perimeter defense was impressive. He still looked a bit shaky in the pick & roll when he wasn't just completely switching off to the ball handler, but I'm hopeful that will improve (along with understanding rotations better) with time, experience, & coaching. I was also surprised how we didn't seem out muscled when Bagley & Adams were out there as the Cs.

I've said it before, but for the Kings to reach their full potential with this group, they are going to need Bagley to...

1. Become a good defender
2. Be able to handle the C spot to end games
3. Become a consistent 3pt shooter

I think these are all things he can do. He has the work ethic and he gives effort on defense currently. I'll be really interested to see how he looks going into his 3rd-4th season in the league (as big men can take a bit longer to develop), but a big man who can do those 3 things above combined with his athleticism & rebounding is going to be a lot to handle for other teams.

I’d add we absolutely need him to be able to use his right hand. Last night he left between 6 - 8 points on the board on plays where he had to spin into a defender just to get a shot off with his left hand when he could’ve spun the other way to get a clean shot off with his right.

 

[twslam07]

I’d add we absolutely need him to be able to use his right hand. Last night he left between 6 - 8 points on the board on plays where he had to spin into a defender just to get a shot off with his left hand when he could’ve spun the other way to get a clean shot off with his right.

I think that’s secondary to be honest. If he can’t defend or shoot but can use both hands around the rim, that doesn’t catapult him to being a high impact player. Show me a big man who is not a good defender, good shooter, or good passer, and I’ll show you a big man who’s not a team’s cornerstone.

Having an athletic big who can defend multiple positions well (C being one of them), knock down the three, and be a great lob threat is already quite the weapon.

Playmaking, ball handling, & off hand would be in the 2nd tier of development IMO, and would be what takes him from star to superstar level.

 

[63royals]

No the point is despite Bagley’s hype currently Richaun is the much better player. If the Kings want to win and make the play-offs Richaun is going to have to play more minutes than Bagley. This short term goal may be in conflict with the long term plan. It’s going to be a tough balancing act going forward.

Now I remember why I had you on ignore. Bagley's first game back and - surprise surprise - he had problems at times. And here you are, arguing that proves something definitive. Buh-bye!

 

[twslam07]

Now I remember why I had you on ignore. Bagley's first game back and - surprise surprise - he had problems at times. And here you are, arguing that proves something definitive. Buh-bye!

I think his/her assessment is right at this point in time, but I think we need to see Bagley over a 10-15 game stretch to feel confident in that assessment. Just like we needed to give Walton a 10-15 game stretch to start the year to feel good abut gauging him as a coach.

It shouldn't stop us from comparing their impact on the court in the meantime (this is a forum after all), but it's hard to make any definitive statements about Bagley's impact after his 1st game back. Let's give him his sample size of games just like we gave everyone else.

Having said that, Holmes has set a pretty high bar in terms of impact on the floor this season, but Bagley does have a lot potential. Whether that potential translates into impact on the floor this season remains to be seen. If his impact is not close to Holmes, it does spark an interesting discussion of limiting Bagley's minutes in favor of Holmes to help us win now vs. sticking with Bagley as a high minute player knowing that this team really will only go as far as Fox & Bagley can take them. I'd lean towards giving Bagley big minutes this season even if that sacrifices some wins this year.

We're in the endgame now.

 

[sactowndog]

I think his/her assessment is right at this point in time, but I think we need to see Bagley over a 10-15 game stretch to feel confident in that assessment. Just like we needed to give Walton a 10-15 game stretch to start the year to feel good abut gauging him as a coach.

It shouldn't stop us from comparing their impact on the court in the meantime (this is a forum after all), but it's hard to make any definitive statements about Bagley's impact after his 1st game back. Let's give him his sample size of games just like we gave everyone else.

Having said that, Holmes has set a pretty high bar in terms of impact on the floor this season, but Bagley does have a lot potential. Whether that potential translates into impact on the floor this season remains to be seen. If his impact is not close to Holmes, it does spark an interesting discussion of limiting Bagley's minutes to help us win now vs. sticking with Bagley as a high minute player knowing that this team really will only go as far as Fox & Bagley can take them. I'd lean towards giving Bagley big minutes even if that sacrifices some wins this year.

We're in the endgame now.

From a total impact I would agree. But from a defensive impact, Holmes is proving to be an elite interior defender who does a great job of showing on the pick and roll, switching into guards and also recovering.

Marvin may well shine offensively. Defensively, it would be unfair to Marvin, who has historically struggled on defense, to expect him to replace Holmes impact this year. To even think he will approach Holmes level in 10 games seems a stretch for something that has historically last year and in college been a significant weakness. The Defensive end has been the end that has made a difference

Luke played it perfectly last night but again it wouldn’t be fair to expect him to hit it that finally grained. Luke is going to have to make a call depending on the organizational priorities.

 

[sactowndog]

We're all traumatized from bad coaching for over a decade with the only exception getting fired when he started having success... and yes, Grant has seemingly been part of the "campaign" for whatever PR mission may seem to be at odds with our success. However Walton strikes me as completely competent for managing minutes, egos, and culture.

Bagley has also earned that hype though, and he will be given time based on past performances. I expect Holmes and Bags will be our starting 4/5 going forward, in about two weeks. I could see end of game situations alternating between Belly, Holmes, and Bags depending on matchups, offense/defensive possessions, and situations.

I have no reason to doubt Walton.

Nor have I, nor am I. My point was not doubting Luke. My point is he is facing somewhat conflicting priorities that it will be virtually impossible to balance. No coach in the world plans, I will give this guy 25 min and we should still be able to win by 1. What he chooses to do regarding minutes going forward will be interesting to watch.

 

[sactowndog]

So Beli 22min,Bagley 23min,Holmes 24 min I am down with a 3 man Big rotation, But why only 69 min for our bigs?
I understand Bagley needs to ease back into his minutes, but why not more min for Belly and Holmes? Was it the 4 fouls?
I kept on wondering why Beli was not in more after he kicked butt for last two games, Is Luke afraid to play Marvin and Holmes together?

As C. Dave said the answer to this question is yes. Neither can spread the floor and defenders sag off both. It’s why WCS and Marvin played so few minutes together and why they signed Dedmon.

 

[kingdivac]

With everyone healthy, there's absolutely no reason to be playing Dedmon. HG should be getting all those remaining minutes between Holmes/Bags/Bjelly.

I see Dedmon as a stopgap bench player --- who I've termed Koufos+. And I agree that Giles should get minutes too; there's no reason not to cut down minutes for the front line player a small chunk.....playing say 26-28min in instead of 35 or 40 each. i haven't looked at the minutes average. Big believer in all-hands on deck, and resting to play at a higher level when on court.

 

[63royals]

I think his/her assessment is right at this point in time, but I think we need to see Bagley over a 10-15 game stretch to feel confident in that assessment. Just like we needed to give Walton a 10-15 game stretch to start the year to feel good abut gauging him as a coach.

It shouldn't stop us from comparing their impact on the court in the meantime (this is a forum after all), but it's hard to make any definitive statements about Bagley's impact after his 1st game back. Let's give him his sample size of games just like we gave everyone else.

Having said that, Holmes has set a pretty high bar in terms of impact on the floor this season, but Bagley does have a lot potential. Whether that potential translates into impact on the floor this season remains to be seen. If his impact is not close to Holmes, it does spark an interesting discussion of limiting Bagley's minutes in favor of Holmes to help us win now vs. sticking with Bagley as a high minute player knowing that this team really will only go as far as Fox & Bagley can take them. I'd lean towards giving Bagley big minutes this season even if that sacrifices some wins this year.

We're in the endgame now.

No problems with any of this. I use ignore for some posters I find too bombastic. Just a personal choice.

If you looked at what Bjelica did last year, I don't think you could predict what he's doing this year. Everything we know about Bagley's play is based on last year. I don't think you can say anything definitive about this year until at least 10-15 games. You can predict what he's likely to do based on past performance, but you can't predict for sure until we have a larger sample size, and we've seen how he fits with this year's team.

 

[Folsomkingsfan]

I think that’s secondary to be honest. If he can’t defend or shoot but can use both hands around the rim, that doesn’t catapult him to being a high impact player. Show me a big man who is not a good defender, good shooter, or good passer, and I’ll show you a big man who’s not a team’s cornerstone.

Having an athletic big who can defend multiple positions well (C being one of them), knock down the three, and be a great lob threat is already quite the weapon.

Playmaking, ball handling, & off hand would be in the 2nd tier of development IMO, and would be what takes him from star to superstar level.

I agree that defense and the 3 are more important skills in this day and age, but this is a rare case that I don't think should be a secondary issue. Bagley's right hand is so bad he prefers to drive into players and take awkward fadeaways from weird angles rather than take open shots he could easily get by just going to his off hand. For a guy like Bagley, who has very strong basketball instincts close to the basket, this is a major issue. I'd put it right there with defense and being able to shoot the 3 as very high priority issues.

 

[twslam07]

From a total impact I would agree. But from a defensive impact, Holmes is proving to be an elite interior defender who does a great job of showing on the pick and roll, switching into guards and also recovering.

Marvin may well shine offensively. Defensively, it would be unfair to Marvin, who has historically struggled on defense, to expect him to replace Holmes impact this year. To even think he will approach Holmes level in 10 games seems a stretch for something that has historically last year and in college been a significant weakness. The Defensive end has been the end that has made a difference

Luke played it perfectly last night but again it wouldn’t be fair to expect him to hit it that finally grained. Luke is going to have to make a call depending on the organizational priorities.

I don't think it's unfair to expect something from Bagley. I think it's unfair to get upset if he doesn't have that type of impact this season (e.g., meaning I'm preaching patience), but the expectation should always be to become a good defender and be as impactful as Holmes on the defensive end one day. We spent a #2 pick on him. Expectations should be high, but that doesn't mean patience is low.

 

[kingdivac]

Maybe I wasn't referring to their 10-13 record as a success?
Maybe I was referring to their more recent play, after Luke trimmed down the rotation?
I would also like to see James and Giles get some regular minutes so they can be better prepared if needed down the stretch or in the playoffs.
And I would like Dedmon to get some minutes so he has a chance to redeem himself and regain some trade value. And who knows, maybe he becomes the port to Bagley's chocolate. I've almost lost hope in that pairing.
But I'm tipping my hat to Luke and the rotation that has most Kings fans pretty excited these days.

I'm not a mind reader, Jeez....say what you mean and mean what you say - please. Lose the snark ,thanks. Have a good day.

 

[Kingster]

Nor have I, nor am I. My point was not doubting Luke. My point is he is facing somewhat conflicting priorities that it will be virtually impossible to balance. No coach in the world plans, I will give this guy 25 min and we should still be able to win by 1. What he chooses to do regarding minutes going forward will be interesting to watch.

I can understand why one would think there are conflicting priorities if one were looking at the here and now. But Walton isn't looking at the here and now. Will playing Bagley over Bjelica or Holmes possibly lose some games this year. Yes, it's possible. Guess what? Walton doesn't care. He's looking longer term. That's why I don't think he's conflicted in the least when it comes to Bagley. When you hear him talk about Bagley he is positively effusive. He's thinking months and even years into the future and he's absolutely not going to let either Bjelica or Holmes get in the way of riding the Bagley gravy train.

 

[sactowndog]

R

I don't think it's unfair to expect something from Bagley. I think it's unfair to get upset if he doesn't have that type of impact this season (e.g., meaning I'm preaching patience), but the expectation should always be to become a good defender and be as impactful as Holmes on the defensive end one day. We spent a #2 pick on him. Expectations should be high, but that doesn't mean patience is low.

I was talking about expectations in this year.

 

[sactowndog]

I can understand why one would think there are conflicting priorities if one were looking at the here and now. But Walton isn't looking at the here and now. Will playing Bagley over Bjelica or Holmes possibly lose some games this year. Yes, it's possible. Guess what? Walton doesn't care. He's looking longer term. That's why I don't think he's conflicted in the least when it comes to Bagley. When you hear him talk about Bagley he is positively effusive. He's thinking months and even years into the future and he's absolutely not going to let either Bjelica or Holmes get in the way of riding the Bagley gravy train.

He’s a coach who is paid to win. He coaches a franchise who hasn’t been to the play-offs for years. There is no way there isn’t a conflict. It would be an interesting poll to see if Kings fans would be willing to miss the play-offs this year on the expectation of growth from Bagley. Of course, half will be unwilling to vote at all which ignores the choice Walton might be facing. To be honest, I’m not sure how I would vote which is why I find this such a fascinating question. There are no easy answers.

 

[parker]

He’s a coach who is paid to win. He coaches a franchise who hasn’t been to the play-offs for years. There is no way there isn’t a conflict. It would be an interesting poll to see if Kings fans would be willing to miss the play-offs this year on the expectation of growth from Bagley. ....

This wouldn't be a difficult decision for me. This team needs short-term success. I don't see how Bagley and Fox wouldn't grow from a playoff push. It's not a mutually exclusive choice.

 

[Kingster]

He’s a coach who is paid to win. He coaches a franchise who hasn’t been to the play-offs for years. There is no way there isn’t a conflict. It would be an interesting poll to see if Kings fans would be willing to miss the play-offs this year on the expectation of growth from Bagley. Of course, half will be unwilling to vote at all which ignores the choice Walton might be facing. To be honest, I’m not sure how I would vote which is why I find this such a fascinating question. There are no easy answers.

Oh, there may be conflict between Walton and some fans. When is there not conflict between a coach and some fans? But Walton doesn't care about that. The reason there is no conflict is that he and Vlade are like conjoined twins. To give you some insight into Walton's outlook I heard him on the radio that there's going to reach a point sometime this season (maybe sooner rather than later) where he is not going to call a timeout when the team is not doing what they are supposed to do on the floor and might even lose a game because of it. He said, laughingly, that the Kings fans will go crazy when that happens, especially when a game(s) is lost because of it. And why would he do such a thing? Why would he put winning as a lower priority? Why would he really not care (and laugh) that the Kings' fans would go nuts when OBVIOUSLY a time out was required to tell his guys how to get their act together? Because he's thinking long term, that's why. He knows he has to take the training wheels off and have these guys take matters into their own hands. He wants to see them take ownership on the floor and do the things they need to do without his micro-management. That's what mature, good teams do.

 

[NewArena]

Oh, there may be conflict between Walton and some fans. When is there not conflict between a coach and some fans? But Walton doesn't care about that. The reason there is no conflict is that he and Vlade are like conjoined twins. To give you some insight into Walton's outlook I heard him on the radio that there's going to reach a point sometime this season (maybe sooner rather than later) where he is not going to call a timeout when the team is not doing what they are supposed to do on the floor and might even lose a game because of it. He said, laughingly, that the Kings fans will go crazy when that happens, especially when a game(s) is lost because of it. And why would he do such a thing? Why would he put winning as a lower priority? Why would he really not care (and laugh) that the Kings' fans would go nuts when OBVIOUSLY a time out was required to tell his guys how to get their act together? Because he's thinking long term, that's why. He knows he has to take the training wheels off and have these guys take matters into their own hands. He wants to see them take ownership on the floor and do the things they need to do without his micro-management. That's what mature, good teams do.

im just glad he knows we aren’t at that level yet. PLEASE please please call timeouts when we need them, Luke. This isn’t the time to get cute and too experimental

 

[Livinthedream]

He’s a coach who is paid to win. He coaches a franchise who hasn’t been to the play-offs for years. There is no way there isn’t a conflict. It would be an interesting poll to see if Kings fans would be willing to miss the play-offs this year on the expectation of growth from Bagley. Of course, half will be unwilling to vote at all which ignores the choice Walton might be facing. To be honest, I’m not sure how I would vote which is why I find this such a fascinating question. There are no easy answers.

Nice. Crowdsource the GM job. My vote would be to build me a contender. I don't care about an 8th seed one year, then 5 more years of no playoffs. Maximize the talent of your draft picks.

Half the issues this organization has had up to this point results from too often bending to public perception and not focusing on the steps for building a solid foundation.