[Game] Kings v. Magic - Monday, Jan. 13 - 7PT/10ET

[ESP47]

That's not at all what @Gguod is saying. He's saying instead of spending big money on role playing veterans, that we should have first looked to trade that cap space away for bad contracts w/ picks tied to them.

Whether that team we build following this process is successful is completely irrelevant. He's stating a process that we should have followed for a rebuild and he's calling out that we didn't follow it. We could easily have drafted the next Papagiannis with that pick we acquired. That's not his point. His point is we should have been in the business of collecting young assets/picks by trading away our cap space and we simply were looking to cut corners and use our cap space to sign veterans to help us win now.

That's not a proper rebuild.



No, this isn't correct. We received Iman Shumpert, Joe Johnson, draft rights to Dimitrios Agravanis, & MIA 2020 2nd (which is projected for #55 right now).

You and Gguod have the right idea in mind as far as trading cap space for bad contracts +picks but that's not really what the market is dictating these days. Teams aren't really trading away first round picks to get rid of bad contracts anymore. The idea is great but I don't believe the deals are available since other teams aren't really getting those deals either.

 

[twslam07]

You and Gguod have the right idea in mind as far as trading cap space for bad contracts +picks but that's not really what the market is dictating these days. Teams aren't really trading away first round picks to get rid of bad contracts anymore. The idea is great but I don't believe the deals are available since other teams aren't really getting those deals either.

These trades just happened this offseason:

• Andre Iguodala/2024 1st for Cap Space
• Maurice Harkless/2023 1st for Cap Space
• TJ Warren/#32 for Cap Space
• Crabbe/#17/2020 1st for Prince/2nd

I would have loved any of those over paying Joseph, Ariza, & Dedmon 8 figure salaries.

The funny thing is Iguodala, Harkless, & Warren are probably just as impactful or more impactful than those 3 vets we signed too.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

That's not at all what @Gguod is saying. He's saying instead of spending big money on role playing veterans, that we should have first looked to trade that cap space away for bad contracts w/ picks tied to them.

Whether that team we build following this process is successful is completely irrelevant. He's stating a process that we should have followed for a rebuild and he's calling out that we didn't follow it. We could easily have drafted the next Papagiannis with that pick we acquired. That's not his point. His point is we should have been in the business of collecting young assets/picks by trading away our cap space and we simply were looking to cut corners and use our cap space to sign veterans to help us win now.

That's not a proper rebuild..

And I am saying (well, what I am also saying) is that there isn't one and only path to a proper rebuild. It's not like there's a checklist, and you have to get all ten out of ten for it to "count." You are both on some, "Well, the Kings didn't manage to take back a bloated contract, attached to a bunch of picks, therefore it wasn't a rebuild." And I'm not with that: the Kings dumped their star player, replaced their entire veteran core with a young one, and got enough picks to do something with. That's close enough to a "proper" rebuild to count. Whether the Kings maximized those picks is for y'all to discuss.

 

[twslam07]

And I am saying (well, what I am also saying) is that there isn't one and only path to a proper rebuild. It's not like there's a checklist, and you have to get all ten out of ten for it to "count." You are both on some, "Well, the Kings didn't manage to take back a bloated contract, attached to a bunch of picks, therefore it wasn't a rebuild." And I'm not with that: the Kings dumped their star player, replaced their entire veteran core with a young one, and got enough picks to do something with. That's close enough to a "proper" rebuild to count. Whether the Kings maximized those picks is for y'all to discuss.

The bolded is where you're misrepresenting us. We never said it "wasn't a rebuild." We said it "wasn't a proper rebuild." And your definition of a "proper" rebuild likely differs from ours.

A mistake you see made with rebuilding team's make is locking up their cap space with veteran role players before they even know if they have any established stars on the roster. That's what happened here in Sacramento. Fox & Bagley are still not established stars. Fox could still top out as a Jeff Teague. Bagley could become the next Anthony Randolph. We don't really know at this point.

I've used this analogy before, but Vlade essentially went all-in with a 10 (Barnes), Jack (Bogdan), & Queen (Hield) after the flop hoping to hit a King (Fox) & Ace (Bagley) on the turn & river. It's possible but it wasn't a smart bet at the time and it's not looking like a smart bet now.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I would say in rebuttal that the bolded part cannot be isolated from the "checklist" part. That's still only one out of a series of elements that "should" be included in a "proper" rebuild, and I challenge the idea that a rebuild can't be considered a "proper" one without it.

 

[twslam07]

I would say in rebuttal that the bolded part cannot be isolated from the "checklist" part. That's still only one out of a series of elements that "should" be included in a "proper" rebuild, and I challenge the idea that a rebuild can't be considered a "proper" one without it.

You’re the one who mentioned a “checklist.” Nowhere did we say a rebuild can’t be classified as a “proper” rebuild without making a salary dump trade. So it seems (again) like you’re misrepresenting us.

You’re the one who stated that our rebuild was a “proper” rebuild. @Gguod and I disagree with your assessment.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I am aware that I am the one who mentioned a checklist. That's the reason why I said that those two statements cannot be taken in isolation. It is essential to question of whether the Kings' rebuild "counts" as a "proper" rebuild (Which yes, I did state, but was not the person who introduced the concept into the conversation, so you can't put that on me).

I do not believe that I misrepresenting you: @SLAB claimed that the Kings have not done a "proper" rebuild. I claimed that they have. Then @Gguod disagreed, based on the premise that the Kings' rebuild does not count as a "proper" rebuild, because the veterans they traded for weren't good enough ("We had tons and tons of cap space while there were teams giving up first round picks (for example Demarre Carrol) or all star players (Russel) for salary dumps"). I challenged the validity of that premise, and then you shifted gears to saying that it still doesn't count as a "proper" rebuild, because it did not include a step where the Kings took on a bad contract, in exchange for multiple draft picks, which I also challenged. Where in that am I misrepresenting either of you?

 

[steelevt]

What’s this? The 6th game this year?

Well the and 1 put them up 2, they would have been up regardless. It was the last play I was hoping we would get the INC on that could have given us free throws to win it. Oh well.

 

[Livinthedream]

Our core players are 1 - 3 years into their careers. This is the rebuild......

76ers didn't make playoffs until Embiid's 4th year. Warriors didn't make the playoffs until Curry's 4th year. In the meantime, those teams kept drafting and losing. There doesn't appear to be the stomach for a full rebuild with this fan base or organization.

 

[sactowndog]

These trades just happened this offseason:

• Andre Iguodala/2024 1st for Cap Space
• Maurice Harkless/2023 1st for Cap Space
• TJ Warren/#32 for Cap Space
• Crabbe/#17/2020 1st for Prince/2nd

I would have loved any of those over paying Joseph, Ariza, & Dedmon 8 figure salaries.

The funny thing is Iguodala, Harkless, & Warren are probably just as impactful or more impactful than those 3 vets we signed too.

Let see
Iggy trade: Memphis Grizzles- Out of play-offs 2 years.

Harkless Trade: Clippers enough said

Warren Trade: Indiana

Funny how the same organizations seem to make the right move over and over. How many Kings fans would trade places with Memphis right now?

 

[jellyfish]

Let see
Iggy trade: Memphis Grizzles- Out of play-offs 2 years.

Harkless Trade: Clippers enough said

Warren Trade: Indiana

Funny how the same organizations seem to make the right move over and over. How many Kings fans would trade places with Memphis right now?

I would trade Fox/Bagley/Hield for JJJ/Ja in a heartbeat

 

[twslam07]

I am aware that I am the one who mentioned a checklist. That's the reason why I said that those two statements cannot be taken in isolation. It is essential to question of whether the Kings' rebuild "counts" as a "proper" rebuild (Which yes, I did state, but was not the person who introduced the concept into the conversation, so you can't put that on me).

I do not believe that I misrepresenting you: @SLAB claimed that the Kings have not done a "proper" rebuild. I claimed that they have. Then @Gguod disagreed, based on the premise that the Kings' rebuild does not count as a "proper" rebuild, because the veterans they traded for weren't good enough ("We had tons and tons of cap space while there were teams giving up first round picks (for example Demarre Carrol) or all star players (Russel) for salary dumps"). I challenged the validity of that premise, and then you shifted gears to saying that it still doesn't count as a "proper" rebuild, because it did not include a step where the Kings took on a bad contract, in exchange for multiple draft picks, which I also challenged. Where in that am I misrepresenting either of you?

@Gguod did not say it wasn’t a proper rebuild because we didn’t acquire good enough veterans. That’s a misrepresentation.

You said I think the Kings need to hit a specific “step” (making a salary dump trade) for it to be considered a “proper” rebuild. That’s a misrepresentation.

Making a salary dump trade is not a prerequisite for it to be called a “proper” rebuild. However, signing role player veterans to big money over multiple years when we do not have established stars on the roster yet is a disqualifier for calling it a “proper” rebuild (from my point of view). That’s where I think you’re getting confused with your “checklist” comment and your interpretation of my posts.

 

[AMR42700]

You might want to go back and watch some of the Kings games towards the end of last season. They lost a lot and they lost a lot of close ones. This team has trouble finishing and it is not just this year.

You're right they did. But there was never really a sense it was the system, and there was a sense another year of maturity would help refine the teams bad habits which led to those losses. I dont even know what this team is. What their identity is. If you dont know who you are or what you are it is more difficult to turn it around

 

[Noble]

I don't know what/who this team is anymore.

 

[Showtime]

Everybody is blaming the players but this team (sans Barnes and Bagley) was running teams off the floor last season. It is clearly an issue of not having the right talent that forms an identity. We have a mixed bag of talent and no direction from coaching.