[Game] Kings @ Lakers - Sunday, Dec. 30 - 6:30PT/9:30ET
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So let’s assume I give you the first two (though an argument can be made for Skal). How has WCS improved beyond just a bit? He’s gone from 4 to maybe 5 points every 10 minutes. Has his range has not been greatly extended? Can you name his signature post moves?
I’m not bagging on WCS but it’s hard to make the case we have seen significant improvement other than more time when Cuz got traded.
I’m not bagging on WCS but it’s hard to make the case we have seen significant improvement other than more time when Cuz got traded.
You may be right but I hope his "demotion" to Stockton is more related to the terms of his contract than their opinion of him as a player. I also think the Kings feel obligated to give Jackson every chance to fail / succeed because of the investment they made in him. It is not so much Jackson deserves minutes over Williams, it is that we need to find out definitively if he is a player or not. I know the answer but I understand the bias of those who made personal and professional commitment to him. A player has it or he doesn't. Jackson doesn't have it. He is not good enough. He is Papa G and Malachi in another form. He was a mistake the Kings are not willing to admit yet. By contrast there is something to Williams, it just needs to be refined.
For a #2 pick, he totally sucks. You know the Lakers won that game last night partially when they took him off the floor. They were better without him. And they lost the game against the Grizzlies when they didn't. He lost that game for them and he probably would have lost the game for them against us if Walton kept him on the floor. Walton knows better or has learned from experience. When Josh Hart is better than you, that's not good. That would be like Mason being better than D-Fox.
The defense is not good enough especially when we get B or B- level games from Buddy, Fox and Bogs. That is what happen last night. This is not a playoff team as constructed because we cannot win when not firing on many to all cylinders offensively. Perimeter shooting is not constant but defensive resistance can be. That is how you win when you are not lights out scoring. We are not going to be a playoff team without 20-30% improvement defense which will likely require trade. To expect internal improvement is precarious strategy. MB3 will help with healthy return but I don't think it is enough. There's no reason not to pursue Otto Porter hard and make a real playoff run for the first time in over a decade. I mean WTF are we waiting for, go for it Vlade.
Willie is not a good starting center. It's not even a contentious debate. The #s speak for themselves. Just because he is better than the alternatives of Giles and Skal does not make him a good starting center. It simply means he's better than what we have. The reason we are 19-17 instead of 22-14 or something like this is because Willie is not the defender or rebounder we would like him to be. The argument pending this summer is not whether he's worth $20M per year. It is whether he is worth $10M per year.
I was good with how the team played except for basically one player.
I felt the Kings played winning basketball otherwise.
It was Justin Jackson.
He made so many costly mistakes...that he anchored the team the whole time he was in. And not anchoring in the good way.
He played like this the game before too.
I think he's starting to write a story:
It called
NBA Style
How to lose an NBA game by 50 points.
Written by Justin Jackson.
I felt the Kings played winning basketball otherwise.
It was Justin Jackson.
He made so many costly mistakes...that he anchored the team the whole time he was in. And not anchoring in the good way.
He played like this the game before too.
I think he's starting to write a story:
It called
NBA Style
How to lose an NBA game by 50 points.
Written by Justin Jackson.
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WCS needed playing time and received it when we traded Cousins away.
Those first summer league games when he was blocking all those shots a lot of us were thinking we have a winner.
Yes he can run the floor and and shows some good moves once in awhile on offense. But I just expect more from a player who is our center. Is he the best we have at that position well maybe he is but not 20m better.
I am enjoying this season and should not complain and hopefully we can fill in a few more pieces soon.
Those first summer league games when he was blocking all those shots a lot of us were thinking we have a winner.
Yes he can run the floor and and shows some good moves once in awhile on offense. But I just expect more from a player who is our center. Is he the best we have at that position well maybe he is but not 20m better.
I am enjoying this season and should not complain and hopefully we can fill in a few more pieces soon.
Yep, and it’s because he just cannot be relied on to bring it every night. He’s an elite 7th man/3rd big...a true luxury for a playoff team with their starting bigs set in stone. Now, maybe that’s us next year with Bagley starting and we’re able to get WCS on $10-$11M per year...that would be amazing. He can do things, like shut down Ingram and Hart driving to the basket in the 1st, that I don’t think any other big in the league can do. If you only needed him to give you 22 full effort minutes a night, then I think he’d be tremendous.
It’s clear Willie just wants life changing money...what’s the number he needs to feel comfortable and just play a role going forward? I don’t know. I want him on this team going forward, but he has to feel comfortable with his place in it...and I just don’t know if the dollar value he brings is commiserate with what he thinks he needs. If the Kings offered 4/48 (probably a slight overpay) is he good with that?
Edit to add: in this scenario there would be plenty of nights where he closed games with Bagley at the 4. It would just depend. So, a very important role, but one where negative impacts could be minimized the nights he’s not locked in.
It’s clear Willie just wants life changing money...what’s the number he needs to feel comfortable and just play a role going forward? I don’t know. I want him on this team going forward, but he has to feel comfortable with his place in it...and I just don’t know if the dollar value he brings is commiserate with what he thinks he needs. If the Kings offered 4/48 (probably a slight overpay) is he good with that?
Edit to add: in this scenario there would be plenty of nights where he closed games with Bagley at the 4. It would just depend. So, a very important role, but one where negative impacts could be minimized the nights he’s not locked in.
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The Lakers double teamed Hield in the game the Kings won; they double teamed him in the last game the Kings lost. If a Laker was within 10-12 feet of Hield they would go after him if he had the ball, regardless of whether there was another Laker already on him. Buddy just kept jacking up shots, regardless. He was so fixated on shooting the ball he apparently didn't realize he was double teamed or that there was a King wide open if he got him the ball. Going forward, this must change for Buddy to be successful and the Kings to be successful. Teams are just not going to allow Buddy Hield to win the game by himself. It's up to Buddy to recognize the situation and pass out of the double team. It's frustrating for me as a fan to see Buddy not seeming to identify the problem or to find the solution by passing out of it.
Joerger obviously sees what's going on. So why doesn't he call a play or plays to attack this "Buddy rule" for the Lakers? My guess is that Joerger knows that Buddy needs to be mature enough as a player to recognize and adapt on the fly. Joerger can't always bail Buddy out of these situations; he only has so many time outs.
Joerger obviously sees what's going on. So why doesn't he call a play or plays to attack this "Buddy rule" for the Lakers? My guess is that Joerger knows that Buddy needs to be mature enough as a player to recognize and adapt on the fly. Joerger can't always bail Buddy out of these situations; he only has so many time outs.
The Willie hate on here is ridiculous. It’s always the same half dozen posters, but that is all they know how to do anyway is whine and complain. They think he should get every rebound and block every shot. They cut and paste the same comments over and over regardless of how the game really went down. Sometimes I even wonder if they watch the game. It’s just like propaganda, if you keep saying the same thing over and over, pretty soon people start to believe. Is Willie perfect? Not even close. Is he as bad as they say? Not even close.
You have this little clique of negative posters, that dominate the board especially after a loss, and it’s not just Willie. Everything is negative with them, it’s what they live for. They remind me of certain sets of parents I used to have to deal with when I was involved with Little League baseball a few years ago. A bunch of whiney entitled whiners who didn’t know jack about baseball, always looking for somebody to blame.
It was a game they should have won, but trying to put all the blame on Willie is ridiculous. Willie played a good game. It was a team loss. They lost because they couldn’t make shots that they normally make. It happens. I’ve watched that 4th quarter four times now and comparing it to ESPNs GameCast play-by-play, here is the way the game went down. (I apologize for the length, but it is what it is).
At the 7:26 mark, Fox gets a +1 putting the kings up 108 – 101, 7-point lead. It started to fall apart after that.
7:16 mark, Bogdanovic gets caught on a Chandler screen Willie switches and does a nice contest of a 15 foot pull up jump shot, but Ingram makes the shot. It was a basketball play, not Bogdanovic’s “fault” not Willie’s “fault”. 108 – 103.
At 7:01 mark, Bogie attempts a 17-foot pull up jumper, but Ingram blocks the shot. Kuzma gets the rebound off the blocked shot. Maybe, Bogie hesitated just a bit, but again, it was a basketball play.
6:46 mark, Ball misses 29-foot shot, Willie gets the defensive rebound.
6:34 mark, Jackson misses wide open 25-foot shot, off a pass from Willie at the top of the key, but it didn’t go. It was good shot selection, certainly within the Kings normal offense. Lakers had 4 guys in the paint including Chandler, Buddy battled for the rebound but Ball came away with it.
6:20 mark, Kuzma posts Jackson and drives to the basket, but misses the layup, Willie gets the defensive rebound, brings the ball up the court and at the 6:16 mark, passes to an open Buddy for a 25-foot attempt that is in and out. Again, good shot selection, within the Kings normal offense.
6:11 mark, Willie hustles for the offensive rebound, secures it and passes off to Bogie.
6:04 mark, Fox passes to Willie breaking to the basket, but Ball fouls him on the floor preventing the basket or Willie would have had a dunk. Smart play by Ball.
5:51 mark, Fox misses a 13-foot jumper, a bit of a forced shot, but there was less than 3 seconds left on the shot clock when the ball left his hand. Chandler gets the rebound, it’s what he does.
5:41 mark, Fox blocks Balls 26-foot shot, Willie gets the rebound and brings it up court and attempts to drive to the basket. Probably poor judgement (let’s shoot him now), but he was trying to make something happen and in fact in the previous game did almost the same thing resulting in a made basket. The reality is Chandler fouled him hard with a fore arm shiver separating Willie from the ball and it was not called, Ingram is credited with the steal.
5:28 mark, Pope misses a layup, Kuzma misses tip, and the ball goes off of Kings for Laker’s possession.
5:24 mark, Willie blocks Chandler’s layup attempt, Jackson gets the rebound and the Kings have a potential 2 on 1 fast break, but, Joeger has called timeout. Armchair warriors up in arms, Joerger cost them the game! Ridiculous! Just bad luck, Joerger had already determined to call timeout as soon as Kings gained next possession. No way to know how the change in possession would play out.
5:06 mark, Shump misses wide open 13-foot shot after putting ridiculous move on Hart, but shot wouldn’t go down. Again, good shot selection within Kings normal offense. McGee gets the defensive rebound.
4:45 mark, Kuzma works his way into the lane for a 6-foot jumper, but misses and Fox gets the defensive rebound.
4:30 mark, Fox makes a nice 17-foot jump shot, Kings up 110 – 103, 7-point lead, first score by either team in over 2-1/2 minutes.
4:20 mark, Willie deflects the ball away from Ingram, Fox and Hart chase it into the back court before Hart comes up with it with 12 seconds on shot clock, defense is now disorganized leaving Pope open for a corner 3, both Willie and Jackson close on him
4:11 mark, Pope misses 3 point shot, with Willie and Jackon out of the paint, McGee corrals the offensive rebound, Willie hustles back to the paint, McGee finds Pope for what at first appears to be an uncontested layup, but Willie hustles over and prevents the shot forcing Pope to pass the ball back out to Ingram, the Lakers swing the ball around the horn finding Kuzma for an open 3 point shot at the 4:02 mark which he makes. Kings still up 110 – 106. Just good hustling basketball by both teams.
3:44 mark, Jackson misses a challenged driving layup, not the greatest shot selection, but certainly within the Kings offense (despite the Jackson haters opinion). Willie gets the offensive rebound, passes the ball out to Fox who finds an open Shump for a corner 3 pointer, but it misses, again good shot selection, within Kings normal offense. McGee gets the defensive rebound.
3:34 mark, Ingram just absolutely blows by Fox and has a wide-open straight path to the basket. He has the angle, Willie picks him up about 10 feet out, but Ingram does what you’re supposed to do and gets into Willie’s body limiting his leaping ability and pretty much pinning Willies left arm to his body and Ingram makes the layup. Maybe Willie could have played it better, but I am not sure how, Ingram deserves some credit for being a good offensive player, but it really started with Fox letting him blow by him. Kings up 110 – 108.
3:32 mark, Kings call full timeout.
3:17 mark, Fox again finds Shump for wide open corner 3, but he misses. Repeat again, good shot selection, within Kings normal offense. McGee gets the defensive rebound.
2:55 mark, Ingram hits a contested 19 foot pull up jump shot with 5 seconds on the shot clock that bounces all over the rim before dropping through. Tie game, 110 – 110.
2:42 mark, Fox misses floater in the lane, Willie battles 3 Lakers for rebound, but McGee come out with it. Willie haters will say he should have come up with rebound, even though surrounded by 3 Lakers, and give no credit to Lakers for doing what they are supposed to do.
2:21 mark, McGee misses 8-foot contested hook shot over Willie, Willie goes for the rebound and has to reach back over his head for it and McGee knocks it out of bounds and according to the ref, off of Willie, Laker’s possession. The argument can be made that Willie should have secured the ball better (draw and quarter him?). The argument can also be made that McGee came over his back when he knocked the ball loose. A foul could have been called and it really looked like McGee should have been the one the ball was called off of when he knocked it loose, but the ref was right there and it was not reviewable at that point.
2:19 mark, Kuzma misses a 24-foot shot, badly, it barely catches the underside of the rim and comes straight down, no kick back at all. Willie haters will say he should have had rebound, but this one is on Buddy. Willie had leaked out on McGee about 10 feet from basket. When the shot went up, Willie was closing to the basket in good rebounding position on that side of the basket, but the ball came down to Buddy and Pope, and Buddy did not block Pope out and he got the offensive board.
2:13 mark, after Pope passed the ball out to McGee, he found Ingram for the open 25 foot shot and the Lakers go up 113 – 110.
2:01 mark, Fox finds Buddy for an open 26-foot shot, Buddy misses. Repeat again, good shot selection, within Kings normal offense. Ingram gets the defensive rebound.
1:46 mark, Pope drives on Fox for a layup, Willie leaves McGee and attempts to challenge shot. The argument can be made that maybe Willie was a little late, but maybe Fox needed to do a better job of staying in front of Pope, it was just a one-on-one move, you would think that Fox is a better defender than that or maybe you just have to give some credit to Pope. Lakers lead 115 – 110.
1:39 mark, Buddy missed 3 second defensive violation FT.
1:31 mark, Fox misses 13-foot pullup shot, well short off front of rim. 4 Lakers, 2 Kings (Willie and Fox) in the paint, Kuzma gets the defensive rebound.
After a Shump foul and a Laker timeout, at the 1:08 mark, Shump steals the ball from Ingram and makes layup, could have been a +1, Lakers 115 – 112.
0:54 mark, Hart gets by Buddy for a layup, another blow by, Willie contested the shot well, made Hart change his shot in mid-air, but he still made it. Willie haters will say he should have made some spectacular super human play and blocked the shot. Give some credit to Hart. Maybe Buddy should have stayed in front of him, it was just a one-on-one move. Lakers up 117-112.
0:38 mark, Fox misses 24-foot 3-point shot, ball goes half way down and comes out. Pretty much the game at that point. Lakers make their FT, Bogie has a 26-footer in and out like Fox’s. Lakers win 121 – 114.
You have this little clique of negative posters, that dominate the board especially after a loss, and it’s not just Willie. Everything is negative with them, it’s what they live for. They remind me of certain sets of parents I used to have to deal with when I was involved with Little League baseball a few years ago. A bunch of whiney entitled whiners who didn’t know jack about baseball, always looking for somebody to blame.
It was a game they should have won, but trying to put all the blame on Willie is ridiculous. Willie played a good game. It was a team loss. They lost because they couldn’t make shots that they normally make. It happens. I’ve watched that 4th quarter four times now and comparing it to ESPNs GameCast play-by-play, here is the way the game went down. (I apologize for the length, but it is what it is).
At the 7:26 mark, Fox gets a +1 putting the kings up 108 – 101, 7-point lead. It started to fall apart after that.
7:16 mark, Bogdanovic gets caught on a Chandler screen Willie switches and does a nice contest of a 15 foot pull up jump shot, but Ingram makes the shot. It was a basketball play, not Bogdanovic’s “fault” not Willie’s “fault”. 108 – 103.
At 7:01 mark, Bogie attempts a 17-foot pull up jumper, but Ingram blocks the shot. Kuzma gets the rebound off the blocked shot. Maybe, Bogie hesitated just a bit, but again, it was a basketball play.
6:46 mark, Ball misses 29-foot shot, Willie gets the defensive rebound.
6:34 mark, Jackson misses wide open 25-foot shot, off a pass from Willie at the top of the key, but it didn’t go. It was good shot selection, certainly within the Kings normal offense. Lakers had 4 guys in the paint including Chandler, Buddy battled for the rebound but Ball came away with it.
6:20 mark, Kuzma posts Jackson and drives to the basket, but misses the layup, Willie gets the defensive rebound, brings the ball up the court and at the 6:16 mark, passes to an open Buddy for a 25-foot attempt that is in and out. Again, good shot selection, within the Kings normal offense.
6:11 mark, Willie hustles for the offensive rebound, secures it and passes off to Bogie.
6:04 mark, Fox passes to Willie breaking to the basket, but Ball fouls him on the floor preventing the basket or Willie would have had a dunk. Smart play by Ball.
5:51 mark, Fox misses a 13-foot jumper, a bit of a forced shot, but there was less than 3 seconds left on the shot clock when the ball left his hand. Chandler gets the rebound, it’s what he does.
5:41 mark, Fox blocks Balls 26-foot shot, Willie gets the rebound and brings it up court and attempts to drive to the basket. Probably poor judgement (let’s shoot him now), but he was trying to make something happen and in fact in the previous game did almost the same thing resulting in a made basket. The reality is Chandler fouled him hard with a fore arm shiver separating Willie from the ball and it was not called, Ingram is credited with the steal.
5:28 mark, Pope misses a layup, Kuzma misses tip, and the ball goes off of Kings for Laker’s possession.
5:24 mark, Willie blocks Chandler’s layup attempt, Jackson gets the rebound and the Kings have a potential 2 on 1 fast break, but, Joeger has called timeout. Armchair warriors up in arms, Joerger cost them the game! Ridiculous! Just bad luck, Joerger had already determined to call timeout as soon as Kings gained next possession. No way to know how the change in possession would play out.
5:06 mark, Shump misses wide open 13-foot shot after putting ridiculous move on Hart, but shot wouldn’t go down. Again, good shot selection within Kings normal offense. McGee gets the defensive rebound.
4:45 mark, Kuzma works his way into the lane for a 6-foot jumper, but misses and Fox gets the defensive rebound.
4:30 mark, Fox makes a nice 17-foot jump shot, Kings up 110 – 103, 7-point lead, first score by either team in over 2-1/2 minutes.
4:20 mark, Willie deflects the ball away from Ingram, Fox and Hart chase it into the back court before Hart comes up with it with 12 seconds on shot clock, defense is now disorganized leaving Pope open for a corner 3, both Willie and Jackson close on him
4:11 mark, Pope misses 3 point shot, with Willie and Jackon out of the paint, McGee corrals the offensive rebound, Willie hustles back to the paint, McGee finds Pope for what at first appears to be an uncontested layup, but Willie hustles over and prevents the shot forcing Pope to pass the ball back out to Ingram, the Lakers swing the ball around the horn finding Kuzma for an open 3 point shot at the 4:02 mark which he makes. Kings still up 110 – 106. Just good hustling basketball by both teams.
3:44 mark, Jackson misses a challenged driving layup, not the greatest shot selection, but certainly within the Kings offense (despite the Jackson haters opinion). Willie gets the offensive rebound, passes the ball out to Fox who finds an open Shump for a corner 3 pointer, but it misses, again good shot selection, within Kings normal offense. McGee gets the defensive rebound.
3:34 mark, Ingram just absolutely blows by Fox and has a wide-open straight path to the basket. He has the angle, Willie picks him up about 10 feet out, but Ingram does what you’re supposed to do and gets into Willie’s body limiting his leaping ability and pretty much pinning Willies left arm to his body and Ingram makes the layup. Maybe Willie could have played it better, but I am not sure how, Ingram deserves some credit for being a good offensive player, but it really started with Fox letting him blow by him. Kings up 110 – 108.
3:32 mark, Kings call full timeout.
3:17 mark, Fox again finds Shump for wide open corner 3, but he misses. Repeat again, good shot selection, within Kings normal offense. McGee gets the defensive rebound.
2:55 mark, Ingram hits a contested 19 foot pull up jump shot with 5 seconds on the shot clock that bounces all over the rim before dropping through. Tie game, 110 – 110.
2:42 mark, Fox misses floater in the lane, Willie battles 3 Lakers for rebound, but McGee come out with it. Willie haters will say he should have come up with rebound, even though surrounded by 3 Lakers, and give no credit to Lakers for doing what they are supposed to do.
2:21 mark, McGee misses 8-foot contested hook shot over Willie, Willie goes for the rebound and has to reach back over his head for it and McGee knocks it out of bounds and according to the ref, off of Willie, Laker’s possession. The argument can be made that Willie should have secured the ball better (draw and quarter him?). The argument can also be made that McGee came over his back when he knocked the ball loose. A foul could have been called and it really looked like McGee should have been the one the ball was called off of when he knocked it loose, but the ref was right there and it was not reviewable at that point.
2:19 mark, Kuzma misses a 24-foot shot, badly, it barely catches the underside of the rim and comes straight down, no kick back at all. Willie haters will say he should have had rebound, but this one is on Buddy. Willie had leaked out on McGee about 10 feet from basket. When the shot went up, Willie was closing to the basket in good rebounding position on that side of the basket, but the ball came down to Buddy and Pope, and Buddy did not block Pope out and he got the offensive board.
2:13 mark, after Pope passed the ball out to McGee, he found Ingram for the open 25 foot shot and the Lakers go up 113 – 110.
2:01 mark, Fox finds Buddy for an open 26-foot shot, Buddy misses. Repeat again, good shot selection, within Kings normal offense. Ingram gets the defensive rebound.
1:46 mark, Pope drives on Fox for a layup, Willie leaves McGee and attempts to challenge shot. The argument can be made that maybe Willie was a little late, but maybe Fox needed to do a better job of staying in front of Pope, it was just a one-on-one move, you would think that Fox is a better defender than that or maybe you just have to give some credit to Pope. Lakers lead 115 – 110.
1:39 mark, Buddy missed 3 second defensive violation FT.
1:31 mark, Fox misses 13-foot pullup shot, well short off front of rim. 4 Lakers, 2 Kings (Willie and Fox) in the paint, Kuzma gets the defensive rebound.
After a Shump foul and a Laker timeout, at the 1:08 mark, Shump steals the ball from Ingram and makes layup, could have been a +1, Lakers 115 – 112.
0:54 mark, Hart gets by Buddy for a layup, another blow by, Willie contested the shot well, made Hart change his shot in mid-air, but he still made it. Willie haters will say he should have made some spectacular super human play and blocked the shot. Give some credit to Hart. Maybe Buddy should have stayed in front of him, it was just a one-on-one move. Lakers up 117-112.
0:38 mark, Fox misses 24-foot 3-point shot, ball goes half way down and comes out. Pretty much the game at that point. Lakers make their FT, Bogie has a 26-footer in and out like Fox’s. Lakers win 121 – 114.
Great post and breakdown of the final minutes. Somehow those you speak of will find a way to disregard the breakdown because, as you said, all they know what to do is armchair qb and whine. Somehow, some way, some one is to blame for each loss and they are going to keep hacking away at their agenda.....I think mainly to make themselves feel intelligent.
I agree this was a team loss. We lost due to the way we usually seem to lose. Not rebounding at the end of games. The easiest way for people to pin that on someone is the on the tallest player that “should” get the rebounds but I feel with the lead, they should have gang rebounded instead of trying to leak out. It’s on the team or the coach for not reinforcing that. Maybe in recent games we had our 3s fall to make up for it but not this game yet we still tried to chuck 3s instead of driving.