If the Kings end up with John Wall..

Ha ha, your walking a pretty fine line there. But I'll accept it.. I won't take it as a given though..:)
I don't really take it as a given which is why if we won the lottery I am more in favor of going two for one (Lopez + NJ's pick) or trading down with another partner. We need size. I'm not convinced that if you had the two best guards in the league you could win jack with the front court we've assembled. But we would win enough games to make sure we never got another decent crack at a top pick.

I'm guessing you wouldn't draft Wall, but would you draft Turner at #1 or would you try to move down a few spots where you could still nab Cousins or Favors and get some other goodies out of it.
 
I don't like having 2 top level guys both in the back court. We already have talent ... very good talent in the back court in Tyreke. There is only ONE ball.

I would trade Wall + Spencer for NJ's pick + Brook Lopez. If they want Wall bad enough they'll do it. If not, we go after an established all star big who is on a team that doesn't want to pay him. I know that'll be tough but we need to try. Unload bad contracts such as Noc's and others + Wall for the all star big + their lottery pick (even if its at around 10-14). Pick up another quality big with that pick.
 
I don't like having 2 top level guys both in the back court. We already have talent ... very good talent in the back court in Tyreke. There is only ONE ball.

I would trade Wall + Spencer for NJ's pick + Brook Lopez. If they want Wall bad enough they'll do it. If not, we go after an established all star big who is on a team that doesn't want to pay him. I know that'll be tough but we need to try. Unload bad contracts such as Noc's and others + Wall for the all star big + their lottery pick (even if its at around 10-14). Pick up another quality big with that pick.

I doubt NJ would do that trade, but I would. But if I were them I'd take Turner. They already have a good point guard. although I think Wall would be better in the long term. With Turner they would have someone to play along side of Harris. Personally, I'd hang on to Lopez. Hard to find bigs like him..
 
I doubt NJ would do that trade, but I would. But if I were them I'd take Turner. They already have a good point guard. although I think Wall would be better in the long term. With Turner they would have someone to play along side of Harris. Personally, I'd hang on to Lopez. Hard to find bigs like him..

Agreed....

Some other options along with Nets option

Wiz Trade... Wall + Fillers for Blatche + Cousins/Favors
Blazers... Wall + filers for Oden
Raptors... Wall + fillers for Sign and Trade Bosh
Clippers... Wall + JT/Hawes for Blake + Cousins/Favors (I'm sure they would want a Baron Davis for Beno swap added)
 
The title of this thread makes it sound like it's a bad thing landing John Wall.

Also, why are some of you so quick to trade away this guy? Have any of you watched any college basketball this year? Dude is almost a sure shot to be a star.. Yeah lets pack him up and send him off before he steps foot on an NBA floor. :rolleyes:
 
Reke and Turner are not PG's, so while I think it would still be a nice pair, I don't think it possesses the same upside that a Wall/Evans backcourt would.

Reke 5.8 ast/gm (over 7.0 after All Star break, which would be top 10 in the NBA)

Other not a PGs:

Derrick Rose 6.0 ast/gm
Tony Parker 5.7 ast/gm
Chauncey Billups 5.6 ast/gm
Jameer Nelson 5.4ast/gm
Andre Miller 5.4 ast/gm
Mo Williams 5.3 ast/gm
Mike Conley 5.4 ast/gm

1) people continue to have wildly inflated opinions of what constitutes a PG and what most are capable of. Steve Nashes are a tiny minority, not a regularity.

2) given that for the second year in a row the two teams playing for the title are highly likely not to have a "PG" averaging even as many assists as Reke, the significance of such a player is highly in question. A Reke/Turner backcourt would EASILY have enough creative ability between them to be Top 10 in the league in that department.
 
So if Wall and Evans can't play together, then whose fault is it. Wall's or Evans? If your the star of the team and another player comes to the team and doesn't fit, is that the stars fault? There are ill fits on basketball teams. And yeah, you can make the best of it. But if you have the opportunity to aquire someone that fits better, then why not do it. Was it Tyreke's fault the it didn't work with Martin? Or was it Martin's fault. Or, was it no ones fault. Just one of those unfortunate situations that happens. Martin didn't fit here. But he fits perfectly in Houston. So it appears he can play somewhere else.

My point is that Tyreke and Wall can play with each other because they both have extraordinary talent. Just as Lebron and Wade could play together because they have extraordinary talent. It's the lesser talents that you have to worry about skill incompatibility. Regarding Martin, he could have easily played with Tyreke, but his ego wouldn't allow it. It wasn't that their skills were incompatible. So my opinion is that if Wall/Tyreke didn't work it would be because of ego incompatibility, not skill incompatibility.
 
My point is that Tyreke and Wall can play with each other because they both have extraordinary talent. Just as Lebron and Wade could play together because they have extraordinary talent. It's the lesser talents that you have to worry about skill incompatibility. Regarding Martin, he could have easily played with Tyreke, but his ego wouldn't allow it. It wasn't that their skills were incompatible. So my opinion is that if Wall/Tyreke didn't work it would be because of ego incompatibility, not skill incompatibility.

I should note I am actually not sure Wade and LeBron would play that well together, and neither I think are they, or they'd probably just do it.

My best hope for a Wall/Reke pairing is that Wall is best in the open court, Reke best in the halfcourt (or at least beastly strong in the halfcourt). So the outlet often goes to Wall, he tries to push it, if nothing's there, he dishes it to Reke, and we set up the halfcourt offense. Maybe.
 
I should note I am actually not sure Wade and LeBron would play that well together, and neither I think are they, or they'd probably just do it.

My best hope for a Wall/Reke pairing is that Wall is best in the open court, Reke best in the halfcourt (or at least beastly strong in the halfcourt). So the outlet often goes to Wall, he tries to push it, if nothing's there, he dishes it to Reke, and we set up the halfcourt offense. Maybe.

That's what I'd thought too. I think your goal is to push the pace as much as possible and play a trapping harassing defense that hopefully has a goalie at the rim. Something like the Celtics in the Russell days with Cousy, Jones and Havliceck.
 
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I should note I am actually not sure Wade and LeBron would play that well together, and neither I think are they, or they'd probably just do it.

My best hope for a Wall/Reke pairing is that Wall is best in the open court, Reke best in the halfcourt (or at least beastly strong in the halfcourt). So the outlet often goes to Wall, he tries to push it, if nothing's there, he dishes it to Reke, and we set up the halfcourt offense. Maybe.

I think you make a good point. Thats certainly one way of looking at the possibilites. There's no doubt that Wall is great open court player. Especially when it comes to creating for others out of the open court. Tyreke on the other hand is also a good open court player, but at his best in the open court at creating for himself.

I was actually surprised this year that he didn't push the ball more than he did. I figured that he was slowing things down to a more stable halfcourt game in order to improve his creative skills. Tiny steps you know... As I've said, I'm not oppossed to a Evans/Wall duo. I still think Turner is a better fit, but I'd be estatic with either one of them.
 
The title of this thread makes it sound like it's a bad thing landing John Wall.

Also, why are some of you so quick to trade away this guy? Have any of you watched any college basketball this year? Dude is almost a sure shot to be a star.. Yeah lets pack him up and send him off before he steps foot on an NBA floor. :rolleyes:

I don't think that there have been that many people that want to trade Wall away. Kingster only proposed it as a last resort in the event that the two of them ended up being a bad pairing. I did propose the possibility of trading down. But not because I didn't like Wall, but because he would be treasured by another team and we might end up with more talent overall as a result.

But I don't think anyone dislikes Wall. The discussion is more about fit than it is talent.:)
 
I should note I am actually not sure Wade and LeBron would play that well together, and neither I think are they, or they'd probably just do it.

My best hope for a Wall/Reke pairing is that Wall is best in the open court, Reke best in the halfcourt (or at least beastly strong in the halfcourt). So the outlet often goes to Wall, he tries to push it, if nothing's there, he dishes it to Reke, and we set up the halfcourt offense. Maybe.

To me, if either one of them gets a rebound, the Kings should score 90% of the time. They should be able to play fast tempo or slow tempo, and the defensive pressure they could put on would be tremendous.
 
Can't Miami and NY afford both of them this offseason? Maybe even NJ.

Definitely Miami could. I think NY barely could. But in Miami"s case, remember that you do have to have more than two players on your team. If they use all their available cap space on two players that would leave them with Beasley and not much money left for filling out the rest of the roster.
 
Let me elaborate a little more on the subject of signing two big name freeagents. Lets assume that the cap is going to 56.5 mil, which I think is what David Stern suggested it would be for this coming year. The max starting salary for signing someone like James would be close to 17 million with increases every year of the contract. Of course James can resign with his own team for more money and a longer contract.

So lets say for the hell of it that James wants to play with Wade and he signs with Miami for 17 mil. and lets say that Wade wants to be nice and he resigns for 18 mil. Both starting salarys. Then we add in the rest of the players that the team is already commited.

James: 17 mil
Wade: 18 mil
Beasley: 5 mil
Cook: 2.2 mil
Jones: 4.6 mil
Chalmers: slightly under 1 mil.

Six players! Thats all they would have on their roster at this point and the total in salary would be 46.8 mil. You have to carry 13 players on your roster. So that would leave them around 10 mil to sign the other 7 players. Not much money, and not likely that they would, or could do it. Remember that there's not midlevel or bi-annual exception when your under the cap.

So while it may be financially possible to sign two megastars to one team, its not very likely. And remember. I'm probably low on the starting salaries of Wade and LeBron.
 
I think you make a good point. Thats certainly one way of looking at the possibilites. There's no doubt that Wall is great open court player. Especially when it comes to creating for others out of the open court. Tyreke on the other hand is also a good open court player, but at his best in the open court at creating for himself.

I was actually surprised this year that he didn't push the ball more than he did. I figured that he was slowing things down to a more stable halfcourt game in order to improve his creative skills. Tiny steps you know... As I've said, I'm not oppossed to a Evans/Wall duo. I still think Turner is a better fit, but I'd be estatic with either one of them.

Can you imagine what the other team would have to do with a Wall/Tyreke backcourt? On offense, their pg, 2-guard, and three, would have to immediately start running backwards as soon as someone shot the ball. Nobody would be going for offensive rebounds. It would just be shoot and run like hell back to to defend against the twin terrors coming down the court.
 
First, I think John Wall is going to be a spectacular player.
Second, I think that the Kings only select and keep John Wall if they think that a Wall/Evans backcourt will actually work.
So if they go with this, I'll put my faith in Petrie and Westphal to maximize these two elite talents.

With all that said, I'd far, far rather have an Evans/Turner backcourt than an Evans/Wall backcourt. Let me explain why:

1.) Tyreke is a point-guard.
I think a lot hinges on what position you think Tyreke will play. If people believe that Tyreke will ultimately be a SG then it makes perfect sense to keep John Wall, as Wall would become the elite PG next to an elite SG in Evans.
For me, after watching Tyreke develop, there isn't a doubt in my mind that Tyreke is a PG, and I actually have my doubts that Tyreke will ever thrive playing as an SG.

In my opinion, the first reason why I believe he will continue to be a PG is the fact that he can guard the PG position. I think that the only PG that he really had trouble with all last year was Tony Parker. Nash had big games against him, but that was Nash working screens beautifully and not really Nash beating him due to quickness.

The second reason why I believe that Tyreke is a PG is due to his improved ability to create scoring opportunities for his teammates by forcing the defense to collapse or double and then making the right pass to open shooters. I think we saw that he can create an open shooting opportunity for a teammate whenever he wants. He does this with so much ease, and he's only going to get better in making the right decisions.
The ability to create open shots for teammates is what you want out of your PG and especially down the stretch of the season, I think we saw that Tyreke has elite potential in this area.

The final reason, and perhaps the most important, is the fact that he is a below-average offensive player when forced to play off the ball while being an elite player when he has the ball in his hands.

Here's a fun stat for you:
Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook, & Will Bynum

The four above PGs are the only players last year who had less of their field goals assisted by another player than Tyreke.
Tyreke only had 21.2% of his shots assisted, which basically means that he creates 80% of his own offense and you can tell just by watching these games that he doesn't know what to do with himself when he doesn't have the ball in his hands.

For comparisons to other SGs in the league:
Kobe 40.2%
Brandon Roy 34.4%
Joe Johnson 38.7%
Andre Iguodala 49.0%
Dwyane Wade 27.7%
Kevin Martin 62.3%
Eric Goordon 65.1%
Jason Terry 61.4%
O.J. Mayo 55.7%

Serious question here:
How many times did you see Beno or Sergio set up Tyreke with a shot in a half-court offense?
I'd say that he probably got one of these 1 every 2-3 games. He just doesn't play off the ball well.

And this is not new. When he was at Memphis, Calipari tried to play him at the SG and off the ball, and Tyreke and the team struggled. It was only when they decided to play him at PG and put the ball in his hands that he showed he had elite potential. When you take the ball out of Tyreke's hand, you make him ordinary.

2.) Tyreke's struggles at SG
So if we bring in John Wall, Wall will be the PG, I don't think there is any doubt there. Which means that Tyreke will have to move over to SG to accomodate.
Now my problem is that Tyreke playing a more off-the-ball role with-in the offense as a SG is going to make him struggle. It's not what is natural or comfortable for him, and it does not in the least maximize his elite talents, but rather magnifies his areas of weakness.

3.) Alph-Dog Clash
Tyreke is an Alpha-Dog as is Wall. Now typically the best way to get two Alpha-Dogs to work together is to have a veteran Alpha who can adapt and then bring in a younger Alpha, and hopefully you have a veteran team, with a veteran coach, working hard to brings things all together.

Unfortunately our Kings team do not meet any of the above conditions. So you have a 20 year-old Evans who for an entire season was hailed as potentially the greatest player to ever wear a Sacramento Kings jersey.
Then you bring in another 20 year-old player who some are hailing to be one of the most elite PGs to come around in the last 20 years.

Most likely there is going to be a lot of drama regarding who's team it is. Wall will come in as the PG, so he'll be bumping Tyreke out of a position of strength into a position that he is going to struggle with.

All the comfort levels that Tyreke had built up with the team as well as all the team chemistry is going to rush head-long into choppy waters.

4.) Drop in Tyreke's Production and Perceived Value
So if you consider Tyreke struggling in a position he does not do well in, (SG playing off the ball far more) while having to deal with a potential Alpha-Dog clash with John Wall, having doubts about his role on the team, and possibly dealing with chemistry issues on the team due to a drop in performance, I think it's highly likely that we see Tyreke's overall production and value drop.
Why is this important?
Well people say that if you bring in Wall and it just doesn't work, you can trade the player for another player to bring in value that fits better. The problem is that more than likely Tyreke's production and therefore value could drop to the point that we'd be unable to trade him for another superstar.

5.) Loss of Team Identity and Chemistry
This is another issue that I don't see many people bringing up.
The thought that many people have is that Wall is the elite talent so you have to bring him in. And if he and Evans do not work, then you trade the player who doesn't fit as well, and everything is wonderful.

Not so fast.

First, as mentioned above, if one player struggles then you lose potential value. Worse, perhaps is that as long as you have these two alphas going out there trying to prove that this is 'their' team, the rest of the team is going to have a hard time building the chemistry needed to be successful in the playoffs.
Also, from a FO standpoint, if you're questioning whether things will work for a year or two, you're not able to bring in the pieces necessary to best compliment your best player.
So we could lose 1-2 years of chemistry building and FO building around 'our guy', whoever that may be.

6.) Why Turner is the better fit

A.) I don't think that there is going to be too much difference between Turner and Wall as far as their careers go. From a potential talent perspective I'd say that Wall could be in Chris Paul's talent class, while Turner could be in Brandon Roy's talent class. So I think that Wall's potential is greater than Turners, but not so much greater that the organization looks foolish for taking Turner.

B.) As important as the talent level, is the position play. Turner would come in and play the SG. This will allow Tyreke to play to his strengths at the PG position while being the primary ball handler.
Turner can absolutely be a star player while playing off the ball.
So from an on-the-ball/off-the-ball pairing, a Tyreke/Turner pairing will allow both players to play to strengths while a Tyreke/Wall pairing would force one of the players to play to their weakness.

C.) Turner looks to be the kind of player who would never cause chemistry issues due to Alpha-Dog mentalities. So I think he would come right in and let Tyreke run the show, and I think in return, Tyreke would do everything in his power to help Turner win the ROY.
Even if there is some Alpha-Dog clashing, because they'll both be playing at their optimal positions (rather then both of them wanting to be the PG), I don't see this being as big of an issue, because they each will have the chance to shine while in the role they are most comfortable with.

D.) Ball-Handling, Length, Defense, and Size

I think that Turner's ball-handing is as good, if not better than Tyreke's ball handling. So having that SG who is a great ball-handler will absolutely take pressure off of Tyreke.
Turner is 6'7 and a fantastic defender. With Tyreke and Turner in the back-court you'd be looking at one of the better defensive back-courts in the league. Now Wall is going to be a good defender as well, but with Turner's size, you'll have a lot more versatility on defense.

Finally, if you pair up Tyreke and Turner you'd probably have the most dominate offensive back-court in the league by the end of the year. Having Turner on the court would force other teams to put their PG on Tyreke, and we know how much he'd abuse them.
If the team switches and puts their PG on Turner, then Turner would abuse that PG in the way that we all wanted to see Kevin dominate the other team's PG.

7.) Talent Perspective

I'll leave you all with this thought:

If you had Deron Williams as your point guard and Beno Udrich playing the SG along-side him, and had the opportunity to draft Chris Paul or Brandon Roy, who would you draft?

If Tyreke is a PG, then this is the type of scenario we are looking at. John Wall may end up being the best talent of the three. But if you were to pair Chris Paul with Deron Williams, odds are that you'd have to end up trading Deron Williams at some point. And depending on how long it took to make the trade you could have lost 1-3 years of building chemistry while seeing Deron William's value drop.

So I would draft Turner over Wall, as I see a Deron Williams/Brandon Roy pairing working out better from a team success/identity/chemistry perspective when compared to a Deron Williams/Chris Paul pairing.


This is all predicated on the fact that we get the #1 pick. I'd love to be in that position, and I'm hoping that we find ourselves in a position to have to make this sort of choice.

John Wall is going to be a star, but I have major concerns that he will help our team as much as Evan Turner.
 
If were unable to get Lopez or Turner this could be of interest. Wall/2011 1st pick *top 5 protected /Hawes/Nocioni For Curry/Beidrens. :o
 
James: 17 mil
Wade: 18 mil
Beasley: 5 mil
Cook: 2.2 mil
Jones: 4.6 mil
Chalmers: slightly under 1 mil.

Not to nitpick (actually, I'm nitpicking, sorry about that, but I've followed Miami's financial situation for some time, it fascinates me), but James Jones' contract is unguaranteed and virtually guaranteed to be terminated. Essentially, Miami controls the conracts of each of their players, excepting Wade, Cook, Beasley and Joel Anthony (why he has a player option is mindboggling to me). Some article two days ago suggested that the Heat trade away Cook and Beasley for nothing, because they could then ostensibly sign three maximum free agents. Mentioned the Kings as a destination, btw, anybody up for that.

Eh, sorry for the off-topic. So, Wall and Tyreke? Dunno, but if given the chance, the Kings should draft him, at any rate.
 
Wall is too good of a prospect not to draft if you get a chance. He probably won't go well with Tyreke, but you can get a major blockbuster player(s) for him.
 
Wall is too good of a prospect not to draft if you get a chance. He probably won't go well with Tyreke, but you can get a major blockbuster player(s) for him.

Thats a good point. Now ill make another point that ii think is a good one. How old is the player that we're going to trade Wall for? Is he under 25? If you have the number one overall pick you have to use it on a player that you intend to keep. Given Tyrekes success this year, I seriously doubt that Geoff selects John Wall. I highly doubt it.
 
Thats a good point. Now ill make another point that ii think is a good one. How old is the player that we're going to trade Wall for? Is he under 25? If you have the number one overall pick you have to use it on a player that you intend to keep. Given Tyrekes success this year, I seriously doubt that Geoff selects John Wall. I highly doubt it.


The player we would trade for would probably be under 27 and definitely a star quality player... or perhaps maybe a lower pick (2-6) and some good role players. You might think its smart to draft a player with the #1 that is a good fit and is going to stay with the team... but I would rather get the most bang for our buck... which in every case is John Wall. If the kings want Turner (or whoever) so bad their isn't very many teams in the league who wouldn't jump at the chance of acquiring Wall meaning we can get who the Kings really want (if not John Wall) and something extra on the side... If we get #1 Geoff selects Wall.
 
It is obvious that most people think that Wall is the best prospect in this draft as a big, athletic PG (most sites have him listed around 6'4, 195lbs). He could become a Superstar in the future if he continues to improve his game.

What I am wondering is if he measures out smaller than projected if it will lesson his worth to anyone. Say he measures out at 6'2.5 (w/shoes), 180lbs. Would he still be considered the consensus #1 pick, or would that make him drop down?

I haven't heard anything to dispute his size, just throwing this out there to see what everyone thinks.
 
It is obvious that most people think that Wall is the best prospect in this draft as a big, athletic PG (most sites have him listed around 6'4, 195lbs). He could become a Superstar in the future if he continues to improve his game.

What I am wondering is if he measures out smaller than projected if it will lesson his worth to anyone. Say he measures out at 6'2.5 (w/shoes), 180lbs. Would he still be considered the consensus #1 pick, or would that make him drop down?

I haven't heard anything to dispute his size, just throwing this out there to see what everyone thinks.


For me, it wouldn't change anything. His length and athleticism are what's important, and that's undisputed, despite what happens at the combine. Especially his athleticism - we already know he's a great athlete. His size makes little difference to me. He's a pure PG and he definitely won't be undersized for the position. So it's all good.

Now, whether he fits with Tyreke, that's clearly a different discussion.
 
Westbrook is one of the few guys that Tyreke couldn't guard this year. Wall could; he's got mega-quickness. That's a big reason to pick Wall right there because OKC is going to be the competition for years, barring some serious injuries.
 
A lot would depend on how much Tyreke improves at playing off the ball, as well as shooting, this offseason. Right now, both need the ball in their hands to be effective. It would be a somewhat forced pairing.

I'm curious as to how many teams have won a title with two ball-dominant guards. I prefer Turner. What model of success are we following by drafting both Tyreke and Wall? Is it wishful thinking, or has it worked before?
 
Westbrook is one of the few guys that Tyreke couldn't guard this year. Wall could; he's got mega-quickness. That's a big reason to pick Wall right there because OKC is going to be the competition for years, barring some serious injuries.


Wall can guard Westbrook? How do you know this? Have they played against each other? Westbrook is almost if not as explosive as John Wall. Tyreke is no slug on defense. Not many guards in the NBA can get by Tyreke one on one. The use of constant screens like Parker or Jennings don't count either.

In fact, if the end of the game comes down to an isolation play on defense, I would pick Tyreke to defend Westbrook over Wall.
 
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