If the Kings end up with John Wall..
- Thread starter vedder=truth
- Start date
ElRey
Starter
hammystyle
Starter
Except for the part about being a good ball handler.
King-Da-Yah
Starter
Ceilngs are so iffy though swish, I mean don't get me wrong, I like wall a lot and I think he will be great. But there is always the possibility he could wind up as another Telfair. Not saying he will be, nor do I think it is even probable*, but crazier things have happened. Remember TJ Ford? Jay Williams? They were no where near Wall IMO but I guess I am just saying things happen, life is crazy.
Ok maybe I makig a crappy point, I am really just trying to defend my boy, who you seem to have some innate ability to belittle sometimes. I just bet my brother in law $200 that Evans will have a better career in Curry, so I got a lot of faith in #13. Gonna be a long time before I can claim I win the bet though. Could you guys ever see Wall as an MVP? Just wondering, very early to try and guage something like that though. How about Tyreke for that matter? Swish you are not to answer this question!
Last edited:
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Who the hell cares if they considered him a #1 pick. These are the same people who said Rubio would be a #2 pick, and maybe the 2nd best player in the draft. These same people also said the 2009 draft class was one of the worst ever.
Maybe people aren't aware, as you put it, because Wall has yet to play in an nba game. A players ceiling is very subjective. No one knows. I don't. You don't. You act like Wall having a better career than Tyreke is written in stone.
Wall isn't even the consensus #1 THIS year. Either Turner or Cousins can go ahead depending on the where certain teams pick.
Chupacabra
Starter
I wouldnt bet on any player in next years draft ever being better than Tyreke. With that said, why would i want to move Tyreke to another position to make room for a lesser player?
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Having watched both Wall and Turner play numerous times this season, I feel fairly confident in both players current abilities. I say current, because I expect both players to improve in the future. Its to what extent both improve that will determine their place in the NBA. So I have a question. Why do most of you seem to believe that Wall will ultimately be the better player? I understand why he's valued. He's a point guard with a lot of skill and upside. I get that part. But thats just about value, which is one, if not the main reason he's ranked as high as he is. But thats not a reason he will be better than Turner.
So please don't give me vague answers like, he has more upside. Give me particular things about his game that you believe will make him a better player. Explain to me where he excells over Turner, other than being able to run faster and jump higher. And I'm not saying thats all he can do. I just want someone to explain to me in what areas of basketball he's superior to Turner..
So please don't give me vague answers like, he has more upside. Give me particular things about his game that you believe will make him a better player. Explain to me where he excells over Turner, other than being able to run faster and jump higher. And I'm not saying thats all he can do. I just want someone to explain to me in what areas of basketball he's superior to Turner..
I love his speed and athleticism. I like that Calipari thinks that he's already better than Rose or Evans were, particularly since I think he's right. I like Wall's leadership, character, work ethic, and how he makes his team so much better. Sometimes he seems to get his team to win just by his sheer determination. None of these things are comparisons to Turner, they're just reasons why I'd love to see him in purple.
Turner isn't such a freak of nature, but I think his game is extremely balanced and polished for his age. Being 6'7" and able to play PG is pretty amazing, too. He may have a little less upside remaining, but I don't think the comparisons to Scottie Pippin are out of line, and I think that any team in the NBA would be very fortunate to get him.
I'd be ecstatic about getting a player who was as talented and special as either of them.
Unless Cousins turns into a taller version of Ron Artest, I really see no way to go wrong with a top 4 pick this year. Looking over the possibilities, what this summer could mean for the team is finally starting to sink in. June 24th is really starting to look like Christmas to me.
ElRey
Starter
Rose and Wall are very comparable and share many similarities. Rose had nearly as much hype as John Wall coming out of high school. Both are explosive athletes with elite leaping ability. Both can attack the rim, but has mediocre jumpshots. Both with great size for pg. Both are scoring PGs. Wall is a little taller than Rose, but Rose is stronger. Rose took his team much deeper into the Tournament (final four) than Wall did. I'm not entirely convinced Wall will be better than Rose.
King-Da-Yah
Starter
***deck the halls with Walls of holly, fa ra ra ra ra... Ra ra ra ra***
ElRey
Starter
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I appreciate your response, but my question was about comparing Turner and Wall, not Rose and Wall. Of course you may not have been responding to my question. In which case, just ignore this...
ElRey
Starter
Kings Faithful
Starter
Does anyone else find it funny that at first it was... "EVANS IS A SG! NOT A PG!!!". Now its.. "EVANS IS A PG!! WE NEED A SG!"
I know the argument is that both Wall and Evans are "ball dominant', but i still find it kind of ironic.
I know the argument is that both Wall and Evans are "ball dominant', but i still find it kind of ironic.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
So is it fair to say that you really like Wall, as do I, but you really don't have anything substantial other than athleticism to give Wall the edge over Turner?
For the hell of it lets look at some stats. Wall averaged 16.6 PPG, and Turner averaged 20.4 PPG. They played similar minutes. Wall at 34.8 MPG, and Turner at 35.7 MPG. All in all, not really that big a deal when you consider that the scoring was spread around more because of the talent at Kentucky. Maybe a slight edge to Turner. Shooting percentage gives a little better edge to Turner who shot 51.9% overall and 36.2% from 3pt range. While Wall shot 46.1% overall and 32.5% from 3pt range.
Wall averaged 6.5 APG and 4.0 turnovers a game. Turner averaged 6.0 APG and 4.3 turnovers a game. Pretty similar numbers there. But remember its Wall thats the point guard. And they aquired their turnovers in different ways. But it doesn't really matter. A turnover is a turnover.
Its not close in the rebounding dept. Wall averaged 4.3 RPG, which really isn't bad for a pt guard. Turner averaged 9.2 RPG, which is above average for a SG. Steals were very close. Wall with 1.8 steals a game and Turner with 1.7 steals a game. All in all, their results are pretty darn similar except for a little tweek here or there. If you had to give one player an edge statisticaly, it would have to be Turner. But not by much.
So why do I like Turner better for the Kings. Because he has an almost magical feel for the game. He's one of the most fluid players I've seen. And though some on this fourm might dispute this, Turner is the better ballhandler of the two. Just because you can go from one end of the court to the other in 2 seconds while dribbling the ball doesn't make you a great ballhandler. Most of Wall's turnovers came because he was going that fast and usually into traffic, and many times out of control. I admit that as the season went on, he became more controled.
I saw Turner do things with a basketball in traffic that just amazed me. Like Evans he can get to the basket at will. But he doesn't have to. He has more stuff in his offensive bag of tricks than a player his age has a right to. Remember! His job at Ohio St. was to be the defacto pt guard. He was responsible for starting the offense and trying to keep everyone involved. In almost every game I watched, he only scored when he had to. And yet he still averaged 20 points a game. If he had been a selfish player, or if Ohio St. had a legitimate pt guard to handle the ball, I think he could have easily scored 30 plus points a game.
There's no doubt that Wall is a terrific athlete and has great leaping ability. But Turner isn't a slug. He's an above average athlete and he's reported to have close to a 7 ft. wingspan. He's listed at 6'7", but I think he's closer to 6'6". Think of the problems Evans and Turner would give other teams when the two of them are playing defense together. One of the points of the pick and roll is to get switchs and mismatches. So now when the 6'9" PF for the other team gets the switch he wants, he's now being guarded by a 6'6" pt guard or a 6'6" SG, both with great wingspans, and its not much of a mismatch anymore.
The reverse becomes true at the other end of the floor. Who does the other team put on Tyreke, when you also have Turner to deal with. The other teams point guard has to guard somebody, so its pick your poison. By the way, Turner has an excellent post up game, and he's a great passer out of a double team. Turner is also very good at getting to the line, and is a good freethrow shooter.
I know this has been more about Turner than Wall. And to be fair to Wall, I think he's an amazing player. I've truely never seen a player go from one end of the court to the other as fast as Wall does. He's a human highlight reel. Both are going to be great players for years to come, and we'll be blessed a second time if we have a shot at either one. But if I have to choose between them. I would take Turner. He's a special, special player.
King-Da-Yah
Starter
I watched both whenever I got a chance this year, and was beyond bummed when both didn't make it to the Final Four (little did I know I wanted to watch two players we could very well draft, considering we were losing less). Admittingly, I am hoping for Wall, and praying he is somehow the missing piece (or one of them) to the puzzle for us. But I obviously want him for the wrong reasons. It is like it's my inner child hoping for Wall, and the more mature me (I'm 23 with a 10 month old boy named Evan) knows what will be just great for this team instantly.
I am of course taking about Evan Turner, who from the 5-6 games I watched pre tournament, he was just fantastic. Your descriptions of him are spot on Baja, the guy just screams fluidity. He reminds me of B Roy, who is a phenominal passer IMO. There is just something about Turner that puts you at ease if he is handling the ball, the turnover problem will improve, and as you have alluded to before, could be partly attributed the way the Buckeyes used him. I am curious as to what you think about his back injury, and whether you factor that into draftig him? I donno, I just could no pass on turner, even for favors/cousins.
p.s. I am sure there are a lot of people who can admit Wall would be great, but he is appealing more to our Vince Carter through the legs blindfolded fantasies, when we should be thinking more Scottie Pippen in the clutch (one of my absolute favorites in my first days watching the NBA, D-FENSE!) Not trying to say that was the point you were trying to bring to the surface or anything Baja, just something I have been thinking about my own wants lately.
Uncia03
Starter
I'm not so certain that Wall will end up being a more dominant player than Tyreke. It is certainly possible and it wouldn't be surprising if Wall is, but I don't think anyone can say with certainty.
I think a lot of it still stems from the position people expect Tyreke to be playing 5 years from now. Five years from now I expect Tyreke to be playing the PG position.
And if he is playing the PG position then I don't think there is any question that he'll be the most physically dominant player at that position as he showed this season. Wall will be able to dominate at the PG position with his speed and athleticism while Tyreke will dominate with his strength and power. Two different types of dominate players, and both should be equally effective.
Now if Tyreke somehow gets moved over to the SG spot and isn't allowed to handle the ball as much as he needs, then I would agree that Wall has a better chance at dominating at the PG position compared to Evans dominating at the SG position.
--------------
I also want to talk about potential talent levels and where I see things standing.
I see both John Wall and Tyreke Evans at talent potential of Chris Paul.
At this point Tyreke is closer to reaching that sort of status just because we've seen what he can do. If he can develop a consistent jumpshot I don't think there is any question he'll get there. For Wall, we'll have to see how his first year plays out, but he has everything he needs to dominate.
For Evan Turner I see him more at the Brandon Roy talent level. Just a slight step down from Wall and Tyreke's potential.
So for me it's an easy choice. If both Wall and Turner do end up reaching those talent levels (Wall at CP3, Turner at B-Roy), then I'd rather have Turner simply because he plays a different position than Tyreke and Turner's game and talent will compliment Tyreke's game rather than duplicate it.
Now John Wall could end up becoming the LBJ of Point Guards. If he does reach that level while Turner ends up not reaching his potential and turns out to be more in the Lamar Odem level, then it would have obviously been a mistake to take Turner, but I honestly don't see that huge a disparity in talent/potential between Wall and Turner.
I'll be honest, I went into this season wanting to watch John Wall play, and I was fortunate to watch a lot of his games and am a huge fan. However, through the course of the season and the tournament Turner won me over as being the best talent and fit for our Kings team.
I know I shouldn't get my hopes up too high, but to have the chance to pick up either of these players or Cousins (who I love) or Favors would be incredible. We'll know soon enough, and then the real speculation can begin over the best draft choice for our given position.
Last edited:
Big Cuz 15
All-Star
our starting 5 if we get turner
spencer
mandry
donte or casspi
turner
reke
our excess players
brockman thompson, nocioni, garcia, beno
our starting 5 if we select cousins
cousins
mandry
donte or casspi
beno
reke
excess players spencer, brockman thompson, nocioni, garcia
either player drafted would make me happy
spencer
mandry
donte or casspi
turner
reke
our excess players
brockman thompson, nocioni, garcia, beno
our starting 5 if we select cousins
cousins
mandry
donte or casspi
beno
reke
excess players spencer, brockman thompson, nocioni, garcia
either player drafted would make me happy
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
to appropriately complete the thread title's sentence::
...I will not be shedding any tears.
...I will not be shedding any tears.
Who says so?
YOU, who also thought Tyreke Evans ( the 20/5/5 kid ) won't be that SPECIAL eversince the beginning of his rookie year?
After Evans just got a 20/5/5 stats in his rookie year and is now in the company of Lebron James, Michael Jordan, and Oscar Robertson as the only players to average 20/5/5 in their rookie season, I don't know how you figured that Wall's ceiling is higher than Evans' as if you are certain/dead sure about it.
Maybe Wall has been projected as the second coming of the messiah from God Neismith the same way Rubio was hyped last year?
Last edited:
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
It remains a very valid concern, and when you've got a rookie who's upside is superstar you don't want to go screwing with that -- Wall is an amazing prospect, but there is very little room for him to be actually better than the one we've already got. On the other hand you don't want to end up being the team that traded Kobe for Vlade on draft day. When you say "we should trade him for a big" the list of bigs who could remotely keep you from looking like a chucklehead who just pissed away one of the game's great players (if Wall works out) is painfully short. Like maybe 10 guys short. And most of the 10 are either unavailable or are FAs.
NME
Starter
Although, if we look at what Turner did as a freshman, he averaged 8.5/4.4/2.6 in 27 minutes. What numbers would Wall be putting up if he stayed for a second and third year?
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Actually I mean't to give Wall some credit for being a freshman vrs Turner. Obviously Turner has more experience, and I'm not going to go back and do Turners history at Ohio St. and explain why it shouldn't be held against him. Lets just say that there were expectations on him and he grew into those expectations. Lets also say that his role changed.
This isn't mean't to be a knock on Wall, but Turner didn't have Cousins, Patterson, Bledsoe, and Orton to take the pressure off him. Turner was the man, and just about every team he faced made him the focus of their defense. Now you can do the same thing with Wall, but then you'll get killed by the rest of the crew.
I doubt that most people on this fourm can even name another player on the Ohio St. team. But most know the names of the Kentucky players. None the less, Wall had an impressive freshman year, and certainly didn't disappoint anyone. But one also has to take note that Turner improved every year at Ohio St.. And thats an important thing to look at when judging a young player. Its usually an indication that the improvement will continue. We don't have that same body of work with Wall. But it would be ridiculous to think that he won't get better. I think both are going to be great players. So it then comes down to which player is the better fit, and not if I can make the player that doesn't fit as well work or not.
Just my opinion, and I really hope that we'll still be having this debate after may 18th..
hammystyle
Starter
That's a fair point. I'm usually a big proponent of factoring in age between prospects. It stands to reason that a 21 year old should be better and more developed than a 19 year old.
However, Turner's numbers his freshman year just illustrate what an upward arc his game is on. He's just beginning to tap into what it means to be 6'7" and have all the skills that he has at his disposal. I really believe that he's got more upside than Wall because he's taller and more skilled.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
I still think Wall has more "star potential" than Turner, if thats what you want to call it. Wall has more hype, is flashy, will be all over sports center, will be a better scorer, more athletic, and probably more fun to watch for the average fan.
Wall is a stud, no doubt about it. But wherever Wall ends up, I bet that this time next year, the team who takes him will want to put a Turner type sg next to him. IMO, Turner might be the most well rounded/versatile sg to come into the league since Roy. I don't think Turner will be the scorer Roy is, my guess is 17-20ppg, but he will be a better defender and rebounder.
My concern about about pairing Wall and Tyreke together in the same backcourt, is that they both are ball dominant. I would even say that a player like Turner, is the perfect side kick next to either Wall or Tyreke. Obviously a Wall/Turner backcourt won't happen, but my point is that I think a Wall/Turner backcourt or a Tyreke/Turner backcourt will ultimately be better than Tyreke/Wall backcourt. The same problem we face with who do we pair next to Tyreke, I think, will come up next year wherever Wall ends up.
Don't know how well I explained that, but I think Tyreke and Wall will both be allstar pg's, and eventually, both will need a Turner type next to them. This isn't about me thinking a Tyreke/Wall backcourt won't fit as well as a Tyreke/Turner backcourt, because I wouldn't complain if we throw both out there on starting night. But I think eventually, in both their careers, Wall and Tyreke will need a Turner type next to them.
Wall is a stud, no doubt about it. But wherever Wall ends up, I bet that this time next year, the team who takes him will want to put a Turner type sg next to him. IMO, Turner might be the most well rounded/versatile sg to come into the league since Roy. I don't think Turner will be the scorer Roy is, my guess is 17-20ppg, but he will be a better defender and rebounder.
My concern about about pairing Wall and Tyreke together in the same backcourt, is that they both are ball dominant. I would even say that a player like Turner, is the perfect side kick next to either Wall or Tyreke. Obviously a Wall/Turner backcourt won't happen, but my point is that I think a Wall/Turner backcourt or a Tyreke/Turner backcourt will ultimately be better than Tyreke/Wall backcourt. The same problem we face with who do we pair next to Tyreke, I think, will come up next year wherever Wall ends up.
Don't know how well I explained that, but I think Tyreke and Wall will both be allstar pg's, and eventually, both will need a Turner type next to them. This isn't about me thinking a Tyreke/Wall backcourt won't fit as well as a Tyreke/Turner backcourt, because I wouldn't complain if we throw both out there on starting night. But I think eventually, in both their careers, Wall and Tyreke will need a Turner type next to them.
Last edited:
NME
Starter
I agree with the position that Turner is the perfect fit next to Evans, I'm just not sure the similarity of last season's numbers means that Wall isn't that superstar that you have to take regardless of fit. Mind you, I have no proof that he is either other than the conventional wisdom or the one or two eyepopping athletic plays he seems to make per game. If Wall is "only" as good as Rose for example, and not a generation-defining player, then I don't think there needs to be much heartache over ending up with Turner instead.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Exclamation while watching a play by Wall: Wow, that was absolutely spectacular.
Exclamation while watching a play by Turner: Wow, he really made that look easy.
Bear in mind that many, including myself consider Chris Paul one of the best there is in the NBA at point guard, and a borderline superstar. But even he, without the right players around him can't win. Put Evan Turner next to him and I think his team would take a dramatic leap. Put Wall next to him and I don't know if the result would be the same. Simply because your duplicating what you already have, and not adding a totally different element.
If you've added salt to the soup your cooking, and after adding it you stumble accross a rare sea salt from the middle east, and you decide to also add it to the soup. You may have a soup with a special ingredient, but its also possible that your soup is too salty. I just love metaphor's, don't you?
Exclamation while watching a play by Turner: Wow, he really made that look easy.
Bear in mind that many, including myself consider Chris Paul one of the best there is in the NBA at point guard, and a borderline superstar. But even he, without the right players around him can't win. Put Evan Turner next to him and I think his team would take a dramatic leap. Put Wall next to him and I don't know if the result would be the same. Simply because your duplicating what you already have, and not adding a totally different element.
If you've added salt to the soup your cooking, and after adding it you stumble accross a rare sea salt from the middle east, and you decide to also add it to the soup. You may have a soup with a special ingredient, but its also possible that your soup is too salty. I just love metaphor's, don't you?
Similar threads
- ClutchPoints | San Antonio Spurs News
- Kings News Links
