If only Peja could have some of Bonzi's toughness...

[treewoman]

I was very impressed with Bonzi tonight. Not only for his aggression and hard playing but for his toughness. He got beat up over and over and was obviously in pain and yet that man was like the energizer bunny and just kept going strong.

Peja jams a finger and it takes him forever to heal... I am just not getting it. He needs to toughen up. He could also use a little of Bozi's spirit. Peja looked like a zombi tonight. There was a shot of him towards the end of the game where he was just standing there with a glazed look in his eye... while everyone else appeared to be working on strategy to turn the game around.

I love Peja but sometimes he makes me crazy.

 

[Evenstar]

i agree. just having 10% of that toughness would make peja such a better player.

 

[VF21]

You have to wonder about the ride home tonight:

Peja, sitting and nursing his hurt pinky...

Bonzi, with a welt on his forehead the size of a grapefruit and his ankle swollen up to the size of a basketball, talking to Miller, whose face is probably very sore with a possible black eye...

 

[Stojakovic]

You have to wonder about the ride home tonight:

Peja, sitting and nursing his hurt pinky...

Bonzi, with a welt on his forehead the size of a grapefruit and his ankle swollen up to the size of a basketball, talking to Miller, whose face is probably very sore with a possible black eye...

Yeah, Peja is a complete wuss, and Bonzi's Hulk...we get the point.

It's one thing to be nursing a legit injury to your hand (while being a shooter, not a scrappy player like Bonzi who could get away with playing with Peja's injury and probably still play well) and running into a big guy which'll leave you dizzy for a few minutes or so. If anything Bonzi starts feeling the pain tomorrow.

I have been Peja's critic for a long time, but here it seems like there is no way for him to win. People were screaming for him to play because he is such a softie, and now that he's playing with an injury everybody's yelling "he's still so soft, trade him, ship him, just get him outta here".

But when it comes to Peja, it seems that irrationality is quite fashionable here lately.

 

[KingKong]

Peja with Bonzi's toughness???? What's next Bonzi with Peja's shooting touch????

 

[QueensFan]

I do think Peja is soft but I don't presume to know what kind of pain he is in or the extent to which his injury affects his ability to play. Although many great players have played well through pain, it isn't fair of us to judge Peja's toughness based on how well he plays injured.

The reason that I think he is soft is because of how he plays when he is HEALTHY. He doesn't seem to have any killer instinct.

 

[DirkAB]

Yeah, Peja is a complete wuss, and Bonzi's Hulk...we get the point.

It's one thing to be nursing a legit injury to your hand (while being a shooter, not a scrappy player like Bonzi who could get away with playing with Peja's injury and probably still play well) and running into a big guy which'll leave you dizzy for a few minutes or so. If anything Bonzi starts feeling the pain tomorrow.

I have been Peja's critic for a long time, but here it seems like there is no way for him to win. People were screaming for him to play because he is such a softie, and now that he's playing with an injury everybody's yelling "he's still so soft, trade him, ship him, just get him outta here".

But when it comes to Peja, it seems that irrationality is quite fashionable here lately.

Thank you! Finally somebody who feels the same way as I do, Peja is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. If you want him to play through this injury then expect him to play poorly and even less aggressive. People need to quit wishing Peja was better than he really is, if you haven't figured out his limitations yet then you might never figure it out. He's never going to be Larry Bird and people need to come to terms with that.

I don't think that anybody on this board really should be questioning if this is a legit injury. He's a lot of things like slow, passive, a poor rebounder, and generally soft but I would never accuse the guy of unnecessarily sitting out games. Talk about character assassination.

 

[VF21]

Yeah, Peja is a complete wuss, and Bonzi's Hulk...we get the point.

It's one thing to be nursing a legit injury to your hand (while being a shooter, not a scrappy player like Bonzi who could get away with playing with Peja's injury and probably still play well) and running into a big guy which'll leave you dizzy for a few minutes or so. If anything Bonzi starts feeling the pain tomorrow.

I have been Peja's critic for a long time, but here it seems like there is no way for him to win. People were screaming for him to play because he is such a softie, and now that he's playing with an injury everybody's yelling "he's still so soft, trade him, ship him, just get him outta here".

But when it comes to Peja, it seems that irrationality is quite fashionable here lately.

Peja did NOTHING out there on the court tonight. Nothing, nada, zip, zero, zilch - that contributed to the game. Towards the very end, as someone else pointed out, he was looking vacantly while the rest of the team strategized.

I'm very sorry you have a problem with my comments but I'm being honest about how I feel. If you don't feel the same, that's perfectly fine but it doesn't negate my opinion.

It's a source of unending amazement to me that it's so wrong for me to be critical of Peja yet it was so okay for a whole lot of people to be lambasting Chris Webber when he was putting all out there on the court, doing everything he could to exort the team to win, etc.

I am a KINGS fan - then, now and forever. I am NOT primarily a player fan but I will always root for the guy who's willing to leave it all out there on the court before I'll root for the guy who just feels he has to show up for work, put in his couple of hours, and head home without a second thought.

I've taken a lot of heat about how I feel about Peja Stojakovic right now, as though I should apologize for losing faith in him. I have tried my very best to be fair about judging him. Right now, he's a one-trick pony looking for a maximum contract from the team I've loved for 20 years. He's not worth it, IMHO, and I'm not going to make excuses for him.

I don't call him names. I don't impune his character, unless you consider comments in response to "I don't do basketball at home" or "I don't think this team needs a leader" to be character assassination.

Do we need Peja? Right now, we need a perimeter shooter and looking at the roster, there are only two names that fit the bill and Peja is one of them. Could we find someone to fill the role and meet the needs of the team better? I think so.

I have never shied away from saying that I respect the players with the hunger and the heart the most. Peja doesn't have either...

But, for some strange reason, I still get chills when I see him throwing up effortless threes from close to mid-court. And then I get a little sad, because I honestly think he could have been much more than he is but he just didn't have whatever it is inside some athletes that makes them HAVE to strive to push the outside of the envelope.

 

[SacDoug]

I wish Peja didn't need to have Bonzi's toughness. Peja was in the game for 41:29, was 3-10 and only scored 9 pts. If Martin and Garcia had done better than 0-5 shooting, zero pts combined and some dumb mistakes, then Peja's minutes could have been cut down and we would have had a better shot at winning the game.

I hope Jeoff can move one of the Phili three and get someone who can make shots off the bench.

 

[Bricklayer]

Here's the thing though -- Peja has an owied pinky. Ok, fine. So maybe his shot is off. But he is giving us NOTHING. No hustle, no nothing. And that is inexcusable. Is all mental with him. Always has been. If he just shot 5-16 or whatever I'd chalk it up to the pinky and shrug, but to go out there and do NOTHING -- that's the part where the softness kicks in again. He appears to basically be intimidated by his pinky. (or the pain it can give him). Which is almost unbearably frustrating.

I have never demanded competence, especially not from somebody who is hurt. The 3-10 does not bother me. But what about just leaving it all on the floor if you have nothing else to give?

 

[VF21]

Thank you! Finally somebody who feels the same way as I do, Peja is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. If you want him to play through this injury then expect him to play poorly and even less aggressive. People need to quit wishing Peja was better than he really is, if you haven't figured out his limitations yet then you might never figure it out. He's never going to be Larry Bird and people need to come to terms with that.

I don't think that anybody on this board really should be questioning if this is a legit injury. He's a lot of things like slow, passive, a poor rebounder, and generally soft but I would never accuse the guy of unnecessarily sitting out games. Talk about character assassination.

Character assassination?

People on this board - and anywhere else - have every right to question whether or not the injury is legitimate. It's one of the main reasons message boards exist. True debate about issues like this is what Kingsfans.com has always been about. People on both sides of this issue feel very strongly about it, and they're voicing their opinions as honestly as they can while they respect those whose opinions don't necessarily match their own.

 

[GoGoGadget]

People were screaming for him to play because he is such a softie, and now that he's playing with an injury everybody's yelling "he's still so soft, trade him, ship him, just get him outta here".

There is a difference between remarking on Peja's softness and wanting him to play through an injury.

Peja's clearly still hurting. Peja's clearly bothered enough by this injury to have a negative effect on his game. Peja clearly wasn't ready to play last night, and he certainly wasn't ready to log more minutes than anyone else tonight. All of that is painfully evident.

Peja is now playing injured to prove everyone wrong. Great. Doesn't change the fact that there is still a tremendous difference between Peja's willingness to play through injury and Bonzi's. The fight that Bonzi (and Mike, IMO) have shown so consistently is not going to be seen in Peja.

That fight, by the way, that willingness to WIN is not simply stepping onto the court with an injury -- its working around that injury and doing everything else possible to help your team. Shots not falling 'cause your shooting hand fell apart? Okay. Rebound more. Hustle more. Pass more. Defend more. Standing on the court with your mouth agape and your eyes completely glazed over isn't helping anyone.

THAT is why Peja is called soft. Not because he's in pain, but because a sprained pinky seems to have been enough to cause him to become completely, totally ineffective and useless to his team.

 

[DirkAB]

VF21 what in Peja's past has given any indication that he would be dishonest about how severe an injury is? I have no problem with people saying he is soft and doesn't go after rebound hard enough or play tough enough, but to question a shooter's injury on his shooting hand is just dumb. It is all speculation and nothing can ever be accomplished from it. As a matter of a fact I think he may have came back too early from the injury because all the negative hype surrounding it to try and prove a point. Look how ineffective he was the last 2 games, I would have rather had him nursing his hand and Garcia getting more experience.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

i agree. just having 10% of that toughness would make peja such a better player.

Thats entirely too much to ask of Peja...Peja is what Peja is, and always will be...just a great shooter, who vanishes during crunch time/4th qtrs, and we cant afford to settle for less than 100% anymore from his position In my mind, we should trade Peja(and not just saying this because it was a 'rumor', because we dont really know what the heck was going on with this), but I wish we could just ship him off to Chicago for Luol Deng, that guy play with grit, very Bonzi-esque, and I've liked that guy ever since he was in college. But I wonder if Chicago would even be open to a trade like this? Oh well, maybe just dreaming, but just a thought.

 

[DirkAB]

THAT is why Peja is called soft. Not because he's in pain, but because a sprained pinky seems to have been enough to cause him to become completely, totally ineffective and useless to his team.

What did you expect? He's a shooter with an injury to his shooting hand! He can't be something he's not just because everybody wishes he was. Take him or leave him for what he is. Personally I love Peja, but I think this team has gone as far as it's going to go with him, and Petrie needs to trade him this season before his contract expires and they get nothing in return. People need to get realistic about what Peja is, a shooter who can play average defense.

 

[VF21]

VF21 what in Peja's past has given any indication that he would be dishonest about how severe an injury is? I have no problem with people saying he is soft and doesn't go after rebound hard enough or play tough enough, but to question a shooter's injury on his shooting hand is just dumb. It is all speculation and nothing can ever be accomplished from it. As a matter of a fact I think he may have came back too early from the injury because all the negative hype surrounding it. Look how ineffective he was the last 2 games, I would have rather had him nursing his hand and Garcia getting more experience.

You make some very good points. I think G3, above, has made some excellent points, too.

Peja isn't easy to figure out. If he were, we wouldn't be having all of these discussions time and time again. He does what he does better than virtually anyone else in the league, especially when he's "on." But, for reasons known only to himself, it seems like he can be "not on" for the strangest of reasons...

I'm in total agreement that he most likely should not have come back and played. He was responding to the pressure he felt by the amount of criticism leveled his way, which is never a good thing to do.

I also have to admit in all honesty that all the puffery Grant Napear (he who was FIRST to accuse Bobby Jackson of faking his abdominal problems) has done about Peja also had an effect on some of my comments. Basically, the more Grant toed the "party line" the more frustrated I became.

Peja is Peja. Nothing more, nothing less. If he wasn't looking at potentially a maximum contract, I probably wouldn't be judging him so harshly. But his agent has indicated numerous times that he thinks Peja should get the maximum. And, for what it's worth, if a player is going to get a sweetheart maximum deal to carry through the rest of his active playing career, then he'd better develop a little thicker skin when it comes to criticisms, etc.

Hope that answers your question.

 

[SacDoug]

I have not seen Peja ever show the toughness that people want him to. I just shrug, and accept him for what he is. He is a soft shooter. When his shot is on, he can win you games by himself. If he scored his average 21 pts this game, then we wouldn't be having this conversation because the Kings would have won.

When his shot is off and he isn't contributing, then the Kings need someone to be able to take up the slack off the bench. Last year that we had Evans doing that. So far, it is hit and miss with Garcia and Martin. They only have 1 good game in 3 at best.

 

[Bricklayer]

What did you expect? He's a shooter with an injury to his shooting hand!

He's a BASKETBALL player with an injury to his shooting hand, or is supposed to be. Many MANY basketball players play with that same injury. So his shot is off -- that would be fine. But to not do any of the other 99% of the parts of the game is what is distressing. Shooting poorly is fine. But being unwilling to stick your nose in there when you have guys on your own team willing to bang and scrap while carryign the same injury is just...not good.

Anway, I was hoping this issue would just die away wiht a decent performance or two out of Peja, but instead here we are again. And I have no idea where his head is really at this point. Sulking? Hurting? Mad? Embarrassed?

 

[GoGoGadget]

What did you expect? He's a shooter with an injury to his shooting hand! He can't be something he's not just because everybody wishes he was. Take him or leave him for what he is.
...

People need to get realistic about what Peja is, a shooter who can play average defense.

In case you haven't read too many of my posts this year, I don't expect a whole lot from Peja. I'm very aware of what kind of player Peja is, and I'm just not terribly fond of it.

Sorry.

I do, however, expect that players who play with heart and determination on a consistent basis regardless of extinuating circumstances are going to earn a lot more of my respect than softie shooters with a penchant for whining and/or completely zoning out at the drop of a hat.

 

[sloter]

It's a source of unending amazement to me that it's so wrong for me to be critical of Peja yet it was so okay for a whole lot of people to be lambasting Chris Webber when he was putting all out there on the court, doing everything he could to exort the team to win, etc.

Let me tell you what amazed me ... that a guy who gets himself disqualified for 10 games for taking drugs and doing all kinds of other nonsense proclaims himself as a team leader. Do not even try to put Pedja's injury in the same sentence with what Webber did, or are you really that quick to forget ?

 

[DirkAB]

He's a BASKETBALL player with an injury to his shooting hand, or is supposed to be. Many MANY basketball players play with that same injury. So his shot is off -- that would be fine. But to not do any of the other 99% of the parts of the game is what is distressing. Shooting poorly is fine. But being unwilling to stick your nose in there when you have guys on your own team willing to bang and scrap while carryign the same injury is just...not good.

Anway, I was hoping this issue would just die away wiht a decent performance or two out of Peja, but instead here we are again. And I have no idea where his head is really at this point. Sulking? Hurting? Mad? Embarrassed?

Yeah he is a basketball player with a hand injury, but what type of basketball player has he been throughout his whole entire career? Just because he has a hand injury that will bother his shooting did you expect him to all of a sudden become a complete player and start doing the dirty work? He's never going to be the complete player that a lot of people are hoping he will be, he just doesn't have it in him.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

Peja for Loul Deng...DO IT GEOFF!!

 

[Bricklayer]

Let me tell you what amazed me ... that a guy who gets himself disqualified for 10 games for taking drugs and doing all kinds of other nonsense proclaims himself as a team leader. Do not even try to put Pedja's injury in the same sentence with what Webber did, or are you really that quick to forget ?

You're right -- Peja's pinky is far WORSE.

Webb was stupid. But would have killed to be back. In fact if anything his desire to return was the problem.

Peja on the other hand doesn't really want to play or compete.

I will take the stupid competitive guy on my team over the soft non-competitive guy EVERY time.

 

[GoGoGadget]

Let me tell you what amazed me ... that a guy who gets himself disqualified for 10 games for taking drugs and doing all kinds of other nonsense proclaims himself as a team leader. Do not even try to put Pedja's injury in the same sentence with what Webber did, or are you really that quick to forget ?

I think you're missing the point.

The comparison is not the injury, but the reaction to the injury. Even on the broadcast this evening, the repeated attempts to explain away Peja's ineffective play were... mind boggling. And last night, Grant's guided pre-game interview with Peja was apologizing for his poor play before it even started. Peja is, for some strange reason, given a tremendous amount of leeway by the local media, the Kings organization, and the fans that just hasn't been extended to other players.

 

[DirkAB]

In case you haven't read too many of my posts this year, I don't expect a whole lot from Peja. I'm very aware of what kind of player Peja is, and I'm just not terribly fond of it.

Sorry.

I do, however, expect that players who play with heart and determination on a consistent basis regardless of extinuating circumstances are going to earn a lot more of my respect than softie shooters with a penchant for whining and/or completely zoning out at the drop of a hat.

By no means am I saying that you should be a fan of how Peja plays, I understand how frustrating it is to watch. Especially when other starters are softies also, and there isn't enough toughness on the court to pick up his slack. I just see no point to constantly harp on it when he obviously isn't going to change and probably isn't capable of it. And I'm not saying that you personally are harping on it, but the majority of posters on this board and 2 others I post on do.

 

[treewoman]

Go Go Gadget is right my original point was more a commentary on the spirit of willingness Bonzi shows and his attitude - and wishing Peja could incorporate some of that same zeal into his game.

If I am hearing right some of the people here feel that we should accept Peja the way he is and let it go at that. I strongly disagree. Why shouldn't we hope for Peja to be better? I don't consider that disloyal in the slightest. I hope I improve and learn things everyday for the rest of my life - why would I wish less for him? And what better place to discuss our hopes and dreams or vent about our disappointments than here at Kingsfans?

 

[Bricklayer]

Of course lost back somewhere in there is this -- while this topic is always relevant, and I guess in particular when another King is putting on an impressive display of toughness, the fact is that tonight Peja did not really lose the game for us. He contributed to the loss of course. But we got plenty of what he normally contributes (points) even with him AWOL. What we lacked were things that he normally does not give much of anyway. He's part of the problem that sunk us, but so were a lot of others tonight.

Think this discussion is really more applicable to long term planning (keep him or not, max or not etc.).

 

[DirkAB]

Go Go Gadget is right my original point was more a commentary on the spirit of willingness Bonzi shows and his attitude - and wishing Peja could incorporate some of that same zeal into his game.

Wishing is all it is.

 

[Odoylerules]

Peja did NOTHING out there on the court tonight. Nothing, nada, zip, zero, zilch - that contributed to the game. Towards the very end, as someone else pointed out, he was looking vacantly while the rest of the team strategized.

I'm very sorry you have a problem with my comments but I'm being honest about how I feel. If you don't feel the same, that's perfectly fine but it doesn't negate my opinion.

It's a source of unending amazement to me that it's so wrong for me to be critical of Peja yet it was so okay for a whole lot of people to be lambasting Chris Webber when he was putting all out there on the court, doing everything he could to exort the team to win, etc.

I am a KINGS fan - then, now and forever. I am NOT primarily a player fan but I will always root for the guy who's willing to leave it all out there on the court before I'll root for the guy who just feels he has to show up for work, put in his couple of hours, and head home without a second thought.

I've taken a lot of heat about how I feel about Peja Stojakovic right now, as though I should apologize for losing faith in him. I have tried my very best to be fair about judging him. Right now, he's a one-trick pony looking for a maximum contract from the team I've loved for 20 years. He's not worth it, IMHO, and I'm not going to make excuses for him.

I don't call him names. I don't impune his character, unless you consider comments in response to "I don't do basketball at home" or "I don't think this team needs a leader" to be character assassination.

Do we need Peja? Right now, we need a perimeter shooter and looking at the roster, there are only two names that fit the bill and Peja is one of them. Could we find someone to fill the role and meet the needs of the team better? I think so.

I have never shied away from saying that I respect the players with the hunger and the heart the most. Peja doesn't have either...

But, for some strange reason, I still get chills when I see him throwing up effortless threes from close to mid-court. And then I get a little sad, because I honestly think he could have been much more than he is but he just didn't have whatever it is inside some athletes that makes them HAVE to strive to push the outside of the envelope.

They are Kings. They're wearing the uniform of the team we all profess to love. Instead of lambasting them without mercy, why not cheer for them? Criticize them for bonehead plays, but don't expect perfection. It's not fair to them ... and it's not fair to us.

 

[Zyphen]

Damned if he plays or damned if he doesn't? No, maybe damned if he plays, 100% damned if he doesn't. It's ridiculous how low the expectations have gotten for him. We should just accept the fact that he shouldn't have to do anything else but shoot (and not very well at that)? 2 years ago he actually shot a decent percentage, and get this, had 6 boards a game!! When did it start becoming acceptable that he's lost 2 boards off his average? Because he never turned it around last year? It seems to me that the expectations for him haven't gotten greater, it's the ridiculous level of acceptance that has. Now he struggles to string 2 decent games together (with boards being optional, apparently). I'd be happy if he went back to his baseline of 2002. Forget his breakout season.

We all know he's capable of defending, rebounding, and even an assist here or there. It's just that he only chooses to grace us with the effort when he's feeling good, shooting well, and his teammates are setting him up. When was the last time Peja put out a decent game when his shooting was off? I hesitate to say never because he's played hundreds of games so such a fluke must have happened (especially possible a few years ago). Other players are driven by both good games and bad ones. If Peja is having a bad game, he takes himself out. If any other star is having an off night, they force you to guard them to the very end because they'll keep working harder and harder.

Accept it when he's supposed to be the focal point of our offense and he's in a contract year? So we'll just continue to suffer his softness now that Webber is gone? No, I don't accept it. He'll either somehow, against all odds, suck it up and start acting like a competitor or he needs to be traded away before this time, next year.