Vlade4GM
All-Star
Yeah, his reach.
Griffin or Rubio????
- Thread starter CruzDude
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Yeah, his reach.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Barkley wasn't a good defender.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Ok, this is just silly -- Griffin is not a good defender even in college. He will not be a good one in the pros. You either have it, or you don't. He doesn't. You don't grow it at 22. He might become respectable as a position defender. He will never be a shotblocker.
If we get to pick #1, we should pick Griffin and try to play him for at least a year. But I wish we will be picking second, or third so that we can get what we really need - a defensive BIG like Thabeet, or a pass-first point guard like Rubio.
Passing on Griffin who has been consistently the consensus #1 pick throughout the year would just be too much of a gamble. I don't want to take that gamble, especially that Griffin can be used as another big in our frontline rotation, and can be a very good piece to trade in the future to fill our needs.
Passing on Griffin who has been consistently the consensus #1 pick throughout the year would just be too much of a gamble. I don't want to take that gamble, especially that Griffin can be used as another big in our frontline rotation, and can be a very good piece to trade in the future to fill our needs.
I think several people have already made the Williams-Rubio comparisons, myself included. I don't know about the YouTube highlights being the only views we've had of Rubio, however. I think a lot of us were talking about Rubio because of the Olympics and all the exposure he got then...
Vlade4GM
All-Star
I understand the Williams comparison because of some of the plays he can make, but the intangible differences between the two are a world apart. Also, despite Williams history with the Kings getting a Jason Williams with our top pick would be a disaster IMO. Not saying Rubio will play like Williams, but still that's not an outcome we should hope for.
We're not talking about getting a Jason Williams. We're talking about getting a player whose flair and style is strongly reminiscent of Jason Williams. Jason had a way...he lit up Arco like no one had ever done before. He simply lacked discipline and focus, something I think Rubio will not repeat. Jason Williams was mercurial, he was frustrating, he was talented and he was unpredictable...and he was one of the most exciting players I had ever seen. It's those intangibles that just might get the Kings going back in the right direction. I don't think he's a #1 pick, but I sure would thing very seriously about taking him if Griffin isn't on the table.
J-WILL55
G-League
Well said. My thoughts exactly.
LPKingsFan
All-Star
He's never going to be your "anchor defender" inside by any means, but he has shown the ability to be a good weak side shotblocker. Oh, and he's just 20
But seriously, I'm waiting to see how he measures out. If he's 6-10 and has a good enough wingspan, I'm comfortable. If he's 6-8, well...I've been following Ricky and Rudy since the Spanish WC Championship team, that also had Sergio Rodriguez(who got replaced by Rubio in following years). I was high on the Kings drafting Fernandez but it didn't happen. All the players had the same doubts cast against them just because of the Euro factor.
The problem is that people can understand forwards easily, but point guards are a whole other thing. Rubio has 'it' and it will take a patient team to gain the benefit of it. It took Nash years, it took many other years. Chris Paul is more the exception than the rule. Even another Euro like Calderon was practically a veteran of Pro level play by the time he got to the NBA and he was still a bench player at first.
And the thing with PGs, is them having it doesn't mean it will happen. It's the biggest mental role in the game and if they are crushed mentally early on they may not recover.
The problem is that people can understand forwards easily, but point guards are a whole other thing. Rubio has 'it' and it will take a patient team to gain the benefit of it. It took Nash years, it took many other years. Chris Paul is more the exception than the rule. Even another Euro like Calderon was practically a veteran of Pro level play by the time he got to the NBA and he was still a bench player at first.
And the thing with PGs, is them having it doesn't mean it will happen. It's the biggest mental role in the game and if they are crushed mentally early on they may not recover.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
I agree with you about the fact it can take a pg a few years to become comfortable with the nba game. It will take patience for any team who drafts rubio. But I think he will have an impact on the tempo of a game, and transition opportunities almost immediatly. His scoring will take time to develope, but I think he will get 6-8 assists per game as a rookie, and will help getting players the ball in right situations. But it will take time because of the talent level and the differences between the nba and euroleague.
sono
Starter
hahaha a little taller & younger KT?
SGLSacMan
Prospect
Look, here's the deal on Jason. A lot and I mean a lot of NBA guards are capable of the tricks Jason pulls off. I'm pretty sure Deron or Paul could showboat just as much as he did. However, here's the thing--stigma. A black player is less likely to fling a behind the back pass from full court and then backpedal back on defense while nodding his head and wagging his tongue. We all know what the reaction from the media would have been if a black player acted in such a way. Jason gets an out, because he was an aberration--a white player playing "black" if you will. Now please, I'm not saying he was not an exciting player. I enjoyed him immensely. I enjoyed the whole dynamic that was Jason Williams. The shy white kid from WV with the hip-hop swagger and incongruously outdated hairstyle. In a way he was Eminiem--a great crossover artist. His influence on the mainstream's perception of the game (mainly its more creative aspects) was changed forever by his presence in the league.
Okay, that said. I see some of the same appeal with Rubio. A little more exotic than Williams, he comes in with that international ambiguity that is really sexy to some people. I watched the Olympics, loved the way he handles the ball, his sense for the game, even mentioned that I wouldn't mind seeing him in a King's jersey. But then I saw this Griffin kid and I was sold. It boils down to this--I really want to be able to tune in to a Kings game and see someone play like a MAN for once. Behind the pack passes in traffic are cute. But I wanna see throwdowns on some of the game's best shot blockers. I wanna see muscle out there, hard work, some blood, sweat and tears dangit! I think the days of "pretty ball" are over for this town. Give me five MEN over five "good guys" who know how to talk to the media.
Okay, that said. I see some of the same appeal with Rubio. A little more exotic than Williams, he comes in with that international ambiguity that is really sexy to some people. I watched the Olympics, loved the way he handles the ball, his sense for the game, even mentioned that I wouldn't mind seeing him in a King's jersey. But then I saw this Griffin kid and I was sold. It boils down to this--I really want to be able to tune in to a Kings game and see someone play like a MAN for once. Behind the pack passes in traffic are cute. But I wanna see throwdowns on some of the game's best shot blockers. I wanna see muscle out there, hard work, some blood, sweat and tears dangit! I think the days of "pretty ball" are over for this town. Give me five MEN over five "good guys" who know how to talk to the media.
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Dime Dropper
All-Star
Firstly, I am 100% sure there are fans of other teams who debate who should go number one between Griffin and Rubio. It's silly to assume we're the only team with open minded fans, and it has absolutely no basis.
Secondly, it remains to be seen who is the better player. Both are very good, and both have weaknesses. Many rate Rubio higher, many rate Griffin higher. Some think they're equally talented. If it's a toss up between the two, you go with what you need. Simple as that.
nbrans
All-Star
Most experts rate Griffin higher, in fact the vast, vast majority. I haven't seen anyone suggest that Rubio is the better prospect or even an equal prospect except on fan boards.
Dime Dropper
All-Star
Most "experts" don't get to see both players play regularly. And even if what you say is true (it probably is), it's irrelevant as I was just pointing out that it's not so black and white for everyone. The guy thought that we're the only team who would even consider taking Rubio over Griffin (BTW, the FO makes the decision, not us, so how would he know), when this is clearly not true.
Anyway, I'm not trying to make this into a big deal or anything, just trying to clarify.
KingGiant49erFan
G-League
This has a lot to do with the exposure that "experts" have had to the two prospects.
Well.. obviously there will be debates about who should go first, but the consensus is that Griffin is the best player and isn't the point of drafting number 1 getting the best player available?
nbrans
All-Star
I don't agree. Everyone watched the Olympics, and Rubio has been on experts' radar for years now. It's not like he's been playing in Siberia.
Look, fans like this guy more than the experts. Rubio's become an article of faith. That's fine, I guess, but that doesn't mean that fans are smarter than the experts (most fans are pretty stupid) or that there's some sort of emerging consensus that Griffin and Rubio are anywhere close to being on par.
KingGiant49erFan
G-League
Well I guess it depends on what you mean by experts. If you're talking FO, then perhaps they've seen enough of Rubio to be able to compare him to Griffin. If you're talking about Chad Ford, then I gotta say you are incorrect here.
Dime Dropper
All-Star
Half the USA guys sucked during the Olympics by their standards, and we know how good they are. Rubio held down a starting spot as a 17 y/o. I know that's not impressive to you, but it is.
And I seriously doubt your line about fans and experts is true at all. For every Rubio fan (me) there is a huge sceptic (you). You're suggestion that he has become an article of faith is arrogant, and it's insulting to people like me who have seen him play far, far more than you have. I don't like Rubio because he's European, I like him because he has bundles of talent and heart and leadership to go with it. Does he have alot of weaknesses? Yes. Did I ever try to deny that? No. And I've never made out that he's the second coming. I think he will be a very good starting PG for a team, but not on the level of Paul etc.. I honestly don't see what's so far-fetched about that. None of the other Euro guards in the league were even close to being as good as Rubio is at his age. It doesn't guarantee anything but it's promising.
Griffin and Rubio are close than you'd like to think. Maybe Griffin is better, and I certainly have no problem with that opinion, but he has plenty of weaknesses too. I think you have become so annoyed at the Rubio supporters that you are willing him to fail.
nbrans
All-Star
It's your opinion that they're close to one another, and that's fine.We all have players we think we're right about and the experts wrong about. I'm all for bucking conventional wisdom.
All I'm saying is that just because fans seem to love him doesn't mean that there's anything approaching some sort of expert consensus that they're on par.
I don't want Rubio to fail, particularly if the Kings draft him. I am indeed annoyed because I think too many people (not necessarily you) are looking at him and seeing the player they want him to be rather than the player he is. That's why I called him an article of faith. It doesn't matter that he's a limited player and even in the best of scenarios probably wouldn't justify a #1.
Yeah, Griffin's limited too. But his athleticism, hustel, and offensive potential translate to a consensus. Rubio fans can obviously ignore the consensus if they think he's actually the best player, but I think it takes a lot of squinting and hoping.
In the end, this is what matters. Our front office is going to be making their pick in this draft based on their own evaluations, not Chad Ford's, or DraftExpress's, or NBADraft's, or the ones from KingsFans.com. And in the recent past, our front office has been pretty darn good at evaluating first-round draft talent, so we've got good reason to trust their judgment.
We can argue over who we think will be the better player, but I will say this: If we end up with the #1 overall pick, the guy I want is the guy we end up drafting.
KingGiant49erFan
G-League
My thoughts exactly
beb0p
Starter
One of the things with discussing Rubio is that if you even dare to say something remotely negative, all the Rubio defenders will come out in drove and beat you down. But when pressed, those same defenders are very quick to concede the point that Rubio indeed has many weakness and that he indeed is probably not going to be a great PG.
Which basically makes the Rubio debate a never ending circle: "How dare you not like Rubio!" And then... "Ok fine, his game has weakness." Followed by, "How dare you not like Rubio!". And then, "Look, I never said he's perfect!" And so on. I, for one, am confused; because the defenders essentially agree with the critics on almost everything.
Except for one poster, no one seems willing to say how good he/she thinks Rubio will be. There's a lot of agreement of who he will NOT be, namely Chris Paul. Here's the thing; who cares what he's not? I want to know what he will be!
And it's a little puzzling because if one thinks Rubio is good enough to be picked so high, one must have some opinion right? There must be some expectation there to warrant such a high pick right? So what is it? Is he the next Stockton? The next Nash? The next JWill? This is not a snappy question because I want to know if I'm missing something.
If the answer is Nash, then I'd like to know how? When even his admirers admit Rubio's shot is questionable at best. If the answer is Kidd. I want to know how that is possible when Kidd is twice as fast and athletic than Rubio at the same age. And so on. I suspect the answer is along the line, "He's going to be unique and unlike others!" How? How can a PG who isn't a good shooter and not fast become dominant in the NBA?
Again, I just want to know what the expectation are. Perhaps there are fans who think anyone who's better than Beno deserves our pick. If that's the case, the question becomes why Rubio and not other PGs? What makes him a better PG than say Mills,Lawson, Teague, Collison, Flynn, and others?
I have already stated that I see Rubio as a 1) taller Mark Jackson or 2) taller and slower Brevin Knight. That's not a knock on Rubio, Knight is one of the most underrated playmaker in the league. In essense, I think Rubio will be a very good starter for a long time. I just don't see him as All-Star calibre.
Which basically makes the Rubio debate a never ending circle: "How dare you not like Rubio!" And then... "Ok fine, his game has weakness." Followed by, "How dare you not like Rubio!". And then, "Look, I never said he's perfect!" And so on. I, for one, am confused; because the defenders essentially agree with the critics on almost everything.
Except for one poster, no one seems willing to say how good he/she thinks Rubio will be. There's a lot of agreement of who he will NOT be, namely Chris Paul. Here's the thing; who cares what he's not? I want to know what he will be!
And it's a little puzzling because if one thinks Rubio is good enough to be picked so high, one must have some opinion right? There must be some expectation there to warrant such a high pick right? So what is it? Is he the next Stockton? The next Nash? The next JWill? This is not a snappy question because I want to know if I'm missing something.
If the answer is Nash, then I'd like to know how? When even his admirers admit Rubio's shot is questionable at best. If the answer is Kidd. I want to know how that is possible when Kidd is twice as fast and athletic than Rubio at the same age. And so on. I suspect the answer is along the line, "He's going to be unique and unlike others!" How? How can a PG who isn't a good shooter and not fast become dominant in the NBA?
Again, I just want to know what the expectation are. Perhaps there are fans who think anyone who's better than Beno deserves our pick. If that's the case, the question becomes why Rubio and not other PGs? What makes him a better PG than say Mills,Lawson, Teague, Collison, Flynn, and others?
I have already stated that I see Rubio as a 1) taller Mark Jackson or 2) taller and slower Brevin Knight. That's not a knock on Rubio, Knight is one of the most underrated playmaker in the league. In essense, I think Rubio will be a very good starter for a long time. I just don't see him as All-Star calibre.
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Dime Dropper
All-Star
If you're refering to me, which I think it's pretty clear you are, you're wrong on pretty much all accounts. You see what you want to see. I've never said anything bad about anyone who dislikes Rubio. In fact, quite the opposite. Nor have I said he will be a franchise PG. I didn't even read most of your post because it is quite clear that you only see what you want to see. I've already stated my opinion on pretty much every facet of this debate; I'm sure Nbrans will vouch for me on that one, whether he agrees with me or not is a different story. I've never had an atittude of "How dare you" to people who don't like Rubio. He has weaknesses. So what? So had Lebron, Shaq, Kobe (and no, I don't think he will be that good before you insinuate that). I'm tired of going over it. Believe what you want about me.
beb0p
Starter
Actually, I'm not referring to anyone in particular. But care to chime in on your prediction of Rubio's in the NBA?
Heuge
Starter
I'm thinking he is comparable to Mark Jackson. Not a great shooter, creative ball handler, smart, good court vision, but nothing spectacular.
beb0p
Starter
That's my line of thought as well. Although I'd love to hear contrasting opinion.
Thanks for the input.
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