Grant Napear wins Emperor's New Clothes award

[bigbadred00]

Thank you.

You act like the Lakers board the Shaq trade is "off-limits" and the VC trade is also "off-limits" on a Raptor website.

Controversal and big time players are discussed constantly. He was our biggest star and might be our best player ever. If the team was winning and the 6ers were at the same place we are the story might be different. But ......the team is struggling the 6ers aren't great but are better than we are....................all translates into the current talk.

 

[Warhawk]

I can't stand Grant, and yet he has a defensible position. I don't think anyone could really say that the trade was "good" for the Kings in the short term. But there's a very valid argument to be made -- still -- that the trade was "necessary" and therefore "good." I'm not going to re-ignite the argument, but people around here act like there is only one possible opinion to be had on the subject, and that's just not the case. Even if you are beholden to the "The-Webber-Trade-Destroyed-The-Franchise" argument you can still recognize that there are valid counterarguments to be made.

And thank you as well. I think you did re-ignite it, though.

 

[Warhawk]

You act like the Lakers board the Shaq trade is "off-limits" and the VC trade is also "off-limits" on a Raptor website.

No, but it is done and over with. Can we please move on with something more productive than rehashing the past over and over, ad nauseum?

 

[bigbadred00]

What do you want to talk about on the Kings board. How good were going to play tonight because Peja is out? Or how bad Brad is going to D up PJ Brown or David West tonight. Those things really aren't that interesting. Here is an issue that is still open that still has 2 apparent sides. It's been less than a Season since the trade went through, and expect comments to pop up left and right if the team (pretty apparent it will happen) keeps continuing to struggle in the Post-Webber Era in Sacremento.

 

[twocents]

So let me see if I have this straight.

1) Webber puts up big numbers last year, which is a rather clear argument he could have done it again this year.
2) Furthermore, Webber is putting up big numbers again THIS year, which is an even clearer argument that he could do it this year.

but

3) you choose to ignore all that and claim that he could not put up big numebrs again on...principle? Hope? Speculation?

As long as we have that clear, I suppose their isn't much to discuss really.

actually, i can still quote you (as i did just right now) and say that 1 & 2 do not imply a healthy webber for this season, but i will not do that.

hah! now i have the last word.

 

[Bricklayer]

No, but it is done and over with. Can we please move on with something more productive than rehashing the past over and over, ad nauseum?

I dunno. Can Grant?

As long as that turd wants to continue the hatchet job, their will be people on here debating him second hand. You might be amazed how much of the public debate of the matter would quiet down to a loud rumble if their wasn't the continued and borderline slimy attempts at two faced justifications at all times.

A significant part of the loss of "feel" for Kings fans for the franchise right now isn't because they are losing. It is because of all the lies, slime, backstabbing and duplicity that has surrounded the front office, the lackeys, the columnists etc. A lot of ick. Nobody likes to be lied to. Nobody likes peopel to be self-serving. And nobody likes to hear former heroes run into the dirt for an agenda. Just...ick. And as long as Grant is shoveling, there will be people shoveling right back in threads like these.

 

[nbrans]

I dunno. Can Grant?

As long as that turd wants to continue the hatchet job, their will be people on here debating him second hand. You might be amazed how much of the public debate of the matter would quiet down to a loud rumble if their wasn't the continued and borderline slimy attempts at two faced justifications at all times.

A significant part of the loss of "feel" for Kings fans for the franchise right now isn't because they are losing. It is because of all the lies, slime, backstabbing and duplicity that has surrounded the front office, the lackeys, the columnists etc. A lot of ick. Nobody likes to be lied to. Nobody likes peopel to be self-serving. And nobody likes to hear former heroes run into the dirt for an agenda. Just...ick. And as long as Grant is shoveling, there will be people shoveling right back in threads like these.

Huh. It could be slime, two faced, justification, etc. Or they're just expressing their honest opinion that it was a good move. You know. Either one.

 

[Bricklayer]

actually, i can still quote you (as i did just right now) and say that 1 & 2 do not imply a healthy webber for this season, but i will not do that.

hah! now i have the last word.

And that word is sheerest speculation. It is "I know all the evidence points to the contrary, but I believe this anyway". There's always a chance it could be right. But there is certianly nothing at all to support it other than a hope/belief. So no matter who has the last word, there is not much to discuss. You can only throw out the facts and then riff off of them so far. At a certian point people are going to believe what they believe, and if someone chooses to think the sky is red because they want it to be, there just isn't much to discuss.

Once the facts are out and agreed upon, don;t think there is anythign I coould particulalry say to change you mind. And I think by admission you are not really basing your opinion on any facts that are going to convince me. So...there we are.

 

[VF21]

No, but it is done and over with. Can we please move on with something more productive than rehashing the past over and over, ad nauseum?

You miss the obvious. If you don't want to talk about it, avoid the threads where it's clearly the topic at hand. I agree with Bricklayer. As long as it's fair game for Grant to talk about AND yell at callers about, it's fair game for a message board devoted to the Kings.

As long as people follow the rules of the board, they should be able to discuss varying opinions. Some people have moved on, and this thread probably holds no interest for them whatsoever. Other people are still trying to see behind the smokescreen. For them, this thread is another way to discuss possibilities.

Again, there are a myriad of threads here for people to either read or ignore, post in or skip over. That's one of the things that makes Kingsfans.com so popular.

Peace.

 

[twocents]

And that word is sheerest speculation. It is "I know all the evidence points to the contrary, but I believe this anyway". There's always a chance it could be right. But there is certianly nothing at all to support it other than a hope/belief. So no matter who has the last word, there is not much to discuss. You can only throw out the facts and then riff off of them so far. At a certian point people are going to believe what they believe, and if someone chooses to think the sky is red because they want it to be, there just isn't much to discuss.

answer this: when was the last time webber went uninjured for a whole season safe for some minor one or two game missing ones?
now, you say, he is healthier than ever (at least, compared to recent years). i say, with the kings, he would not be because he has to work more in a team where he has to rebound, where he has to create. you know, a guy who never played basketball professionally has a much less chance of rupturing an achilles tendon or popping a knee cap than a professional basketball player. life in philly is less demanding than life with the kings. so, my point is not based on "gut feelings" but on probability.

and what color is sky? blue or black or something else?

 

[Padrino]

as far as the webber trade is concerned, i'm going to restate my argument. bricklayer's right, the numbers don't lie. but, for whatever reason, philly is not playing as well as they should be. AI, iguodala, and dalembert should be enough defensive prowess to make up for webber's defensive liabilities. again, for whatever reason, its not. but either way, the argument shouldn't be about how webber is doing in philly or how the kings would be doing if webber was still in sacramento. the argument should be whether or not the kings are better off without webber, his contract, and his bum knee. i'd say no, and not for the reason's being discussed.

people in support of the webber trade seem to be grasping at straws, trying to find a suitable excuse to say that the trade benefits the kings in the long run. my argument is that the kings are no better off in the long run. the oh-so "flexible" contracts we got in return for webb are not as flexible as people thought. all three are still sitting on the kings bench. we still have all of webber's salary, just in the form of three mildly useful but hardly dominant bench players. everybody knows and understands that the easiest way to free up cap space is to let your highest paid players' contracts run their course. and, considering chris webber is the second highest paid player in the league, that's a helluvalotta cap room to be freed up. but its cap room that will belong to the philadelphia 76ers, not the sacramento kings.

the kings will have a little bit of cap space when skinner's and williamson's contracts expire, but thomas' contract will remain. and, keep in mind that kenny thomas' contract extends beyond chris webber's. so, in short, the kings are not better off financially. until kenny thomas is traded, this is simply not debateable. dumping williamson and skinner in their respective contract offseasons will not free up the necessazy cap room to pursue any major stars. philly, on the other hand, will have that opportunity in a couple of years. and if they decide they don't wanna let webber's contract end, they can use it as wonderful trade bait next offseason. the kings, on the other hand, will be sitting in mediocrity as far as the free agent pool is concerned. they'll be sitting in mediocrity as far as the trade pool is concerned, as well, because all they have are mediocre players to offer, unless they wanna pony up miller or bibby and blow the whole thing wide open. but even both bibby and miller are overrated, as i'm sure petrie is discovering.

the point is, until petrie pulls of some magic concerning the contracts of williamson, skinner, and thomas, the webber trade is an absolute disaster, concerning both team chemistry and team finance. i don't think this is debateable. and no one in the kings organization has provided a reasonable debate, financially speaking, for the webber trade. "flexible" contracts is bull****, and everyone in sacramento knows it. now people are backpedaling. simple as that.

 

[VF21]

Very well stated, Padrino.

 

[love_them_kings]

answer this: when was the last time webber went uninjured for a whole season safe for some minor one or two game missing ones?
now, you say, he is healthier than ever (at least, compared to recent years). i say, with the kings, he would not be because he has to work more in a team where he has to rebound, where he has to create. you know, a guy who never played basketball professionally has a much less chance of rupturing an achilles tendon or popping a knee cap than a professional basketball player. life in philly is less demanding than life with the kings. so, my point is not based on "gut feelings" but on probability.

and what color is sky? blue or black or something else?

Huh? Are you saying Webb doesn't have to rebound in Philly? Webb's getting 10.2 rebounds a game, his career average is 10.1. He's averaging 39.7 minutes per game this year.. how exactly is that less demanding than life with the Kings?? Webb plays hard every night & there is no reason to think he is any healthier in Phlly than he would be in Sac. His health is a result of another year of rehabing the knee, not that he's "taking it easy" in Philly.

 

[bigbadred00]

answer this: when was the last time webber went uninjured for a whole season safe for some minor one or two game missing ones?
now, you say, he is healthier than ever (at least, compared to recent years). i say, with the kings, he would not be because he has to work more in a team where he has to rebound, where he has to create. you know, a guy who never played basketball professionally has a much less chance of rupturing an achilles tendon or popping a knee cap than a professional basketball player. life in philly is less demanding than life with the kings. so, my point is not based on "gut feelings" but on probability.

and what color is sky? blue or black or something else?

Sadly Peja has missed more time (gameswise) than Webber. I never expected that one ever. No he isn't healthy, nor are most big men in the league at his age.

 

[nbrans]

as far as the webber trade is concerned, i'm going to restate my argument. bricklayer's right, the numbers don't lie. but, for whatever reason, philly is not playing as well as they should be. AI, iguodala, and dalembert should be enough defensive prowess to make up for webber's defensive liabilities. again, for whatever reason, its not. but either way, the argument shouldn't be about how webber is doing in philly or how the kings would be doing if webber was still in sacramento. the argument should be whether or not the kings are better off without webber, his contract, and his bum knee. i'd say no, and not for the reason's being discussed.

people in support of the webber trade seem to be grasping at straws, trying to find a suitable excuse to say that the trade benefits the kings in the long run. my argument is that the kings are no better off in the long run. the oh-so "flexible" contracts we got in return for webb are not as flexible as people thought. all three are still sitting on the kings bench. we still have all of webber's salary, just in the form of three mildly useful but hardly dominant bench players. everybody knows and understands that the easiest way to free up cap space is to let your highest paid players' contracts run their course. and, considering chris webber is the second highest paid player in the league, that's a helluvalotta cap room to be freed up. but its cap room that will belong to the philadelphia 76ers, not the sacramento kings.

the kings will have a little bit of cap space when skinner's and williamson's contracts expire, but thomas' contract will remain. and, keep in mind that kenny thomas' contract extends beyond chris webber's. so, in short, the kings are not better off financially. until kenny thomas is traded, this is simply not debateable. dumping williamson and skinner in their respective contract offseasons will not free up the necessazy cap room to pursue any major stars. philly, on the other hand, will have that opportunity in a couple of years. and if they decide they don't wanna let webber's contract end, they can use it as wonderful trade bait next offseason. the kings, on the other hand, will be sitting in mediocrity as far as the free agent pool is concerned. they'll be sitting in mediocrity as far as the trade pool is concerned, as well, because all they have are mediocre players to offer, unless they wanna pony up miller or bibby and blow the whole thing wide open. but even both bibby and miller are overrated, as i'm sure petrie is discovering.

the point is, until petrie pulls of some magic concerning the contracts of williamson, skinner, and thomas, the webber trade is an absolute disaster, concerning both team chemistry and team finance. i don't think this is debateable. and no one in the kings organization has provided a reasonable debate, financially speaking, for the webber trade. "flexible" contracts is bull****, and everyone in sacramento knows it. now people are backpedaling. simple as that.

Very well put, Padrino. I disagree with you, of course, but this is about as good a case as you can make for why the Webber trade is bad.

 

[Bricklayer]

answer this: when was the last time webber went uninjured for a whole season safe for some minor one or two game missing ones?
now, you say, he is healthier than ever (at least, compared to recent years). i say, with the kings, he would not be because he has to work more in a team where he has to rebound, where he has to create. you know, a guy who never played basketball professionally has a much less chance of rupturing an achilles tendon or popping a knee cap than a professional basketball player. life in philly is less demanding than life with the kings. so, my point is not based on "gut feelings" but on probability.

and what color is sky? blue or black or something else?

So to sum up:

If Webber does NOT get hurt this year, its evidence that he WOULD have gotten hurt for us this year??

Again stances like that are just...well, how do you argue that point? If he gets hurt, then he would have gotten hurt for us. If he doesn't get hurt, well he would have gotten hurt for us. Either way, it stems form the flat out assumption that he would have gotten hurt for us, and whatever the other facts are, they need to end up supporting that initial hypothesis.

As an aside, Webb only had a couple of short periods of games missed just last year. The bulk of the missed games were the occasional night off to rest the knee. I do not expect him to become an iron man, but the "hopes" (for lack of a better term, and unfortunately true in osme cases) that the knee is going to rapidly deteriorate and leave him gimping out of the league in a year have dwindled to the point of nothingness at this point.

 

[twocents]

in case it sounded like i was defending the actual trade of webber, i was not. it turned out to be very bad. but i was for the trading of webber. that is all. i am not bought into that whole "webber was the deal" or "with webber all our hopes were gone because he was the leader, the irreplaceable warrior" argument.

 

[twocents]

Sadly Peja has missed more time (gameswise) than Webber. I never expected that one ever. No he isn't healthy, nor are most big men in the league at his age.

so, where is the contention?

 

[VF21]

in case it sounded like i was defending the actual trade of webber, i was not. it turned out to be very bad. but i was for the trading of webber. that is all. i am not bought into that whole "webber was the deal" or "with webber all our hopes were gone because he was the leader, the irreplaceable warrior" argument.

But he was the warrior, the leader. And now, the team is a rudderless ship. You cannot deny that reality, regardless of how you may feel about the financial or other aspects of the deal.

 

[twocents]

So to sum up:

If Webber does NOT get hurt this year, its evidence that he WOULD have gotten hurt for us this year??

Again stances like that are just...well, how do you argue that point? If he gets hurt, then he would have gotten hurt for us. If he doesn't get hurt, well he would have gotten hurt for us. Either way, it stems form the flat out assumption that he would have gotten hurt for us, and whatever the other facts are, they need to end up supporting that initial hypothesis.

As an aside, Webb only had a couple of short periods of games missed just last year. The bulk of the missed games were the occasional night off to rest the knee.

yeah, but in the games he played, not rarely did he hobble, didn't he?
and as for summarizing my argument, you have got it all wrong. i say chances are, were webber still with the kings, he would injure himself and his looking awesomely fit in philly does not mean much.

i would hate to see you in court; your subtle argument modifications would really get to me. so i guess that makes you very good in your profession.

 

[Bricklayer]

But he was the warrior, the leader. And now, the team is a rudderless ship. You cannot deny that reality, regardless of how you may feel about the financial or other aspects of the deal.

Oh no, I'm afraid the whole point of this exhausting exercise is precisely TO attempt to deny that reality.

 

[bigbadred00]

Well we traded Webber so that we wouldn't have an old, injury prone, overpriced PF or so we thought. What we are left with in his "star" place is a guy who some how get's hurt more, doesn't work that hard, has fallen off in comparison to what he was 2 years ago and a guy that doesn't hustle. We have played better this year (I guess it's the schedule) when he hasn't been on the court. I'm still convinced it was Petrie picking Peja over Webber due to his age and contract and ability to quote on quote lead this team to victory (goal of any team, no?). And he's done a very bad job at doing that.

 

[love_them_kings]

as far as the webber trade is concerned, i'm going to restate my argument. bricklayer's right, the numbers don't lie. but, for whatever reason, philly is not playing as well as they should be. AI, iguodala, and dalembert should be enough defensive prowess to make up for webber's defensive liabilities. again, for whatever reason, its not. but either way, the argument shouldn't be about how webber is doing in philly or how the kings would be doing if webber was still in sacramento. the argument should be whether or not the kings are better off without webber, his contract, and his bum knee. i'd say no, and not for the reason's being discussed.

people in support of the webber trade seem to be grasping at straws, trying to find a suitable excuse to say that the trade benefits the kings in the long run. my argument is that the kings are no better off in the long run. the oh-so "flexible" contracts we got in return for webb are not as flexible as people thought. all three are still sitting on the kings bench. we still have all of webber's salary, just in the form of three mildly useful but hardly dominant bench players. everybody knows and understands that the easiest way to free up cap space is to let your highest paid players' contracts run their course. and, considering chris webber is the second highest paid player in the league, that's a helluvalotta cap room to be freed up. but its cap room that will belong to the philadelphia 76ers, not the sacramento kings.

the kings will have a little bit of cap space when skinner's and williamson's contracts expire, but thomas' contract will remain. and, keep in mind that kenny thomas' contract extends beyond chris webber's. so, in short, the kings are not better off financially. until kenny thomas is traded, this is simply not debateable. dumping williamson and skinner in their respective contract offseasons will not free up the necessazy cap room to pursue any major stars. philly, on the other hand, will have that opportunity in a couple of years. and if they decide they don't wanna let webber's contract end, they can use it as wonderful trade bait next offseason. the kings, on the other hand, will be sitting in mediocrity as far as the free agent pool is concerned. they'll be sitting in mediocrity as far as the trade pool is concerned, as well, because all they have are mediocre players to offer, unless they wanna pony up miller or bibby and blow the whole thing wide open. but even both bibby and miller are overrated, as i'm sure petrie is discovering.

the point is, until petrie pulls of some magic concerning the contracts of williamson, skinner, and thomas, the webber trade is an absolute disaster, concerning both team chemistry and team finance. i don't think this is debateable. and no one in the kings organization has provided a reasonable debate, financially speaking, for the webber trade. "flexible" contracts is bull****, and everyone in sacramento knows it. now people are backpedaling. simple as that.

well said

 

[bigbadred00]

yeah, but in the games he played, not rarely did he hobble, didn't he?
and as for summarizing my argument, you have got it all wrong. i say chances are, were webber still with the kings, he would injure himself and his looking awesomely fit in philly does not mean much.

i would hate to see you in court; your subtle argument modifications would really get to me. so i guess that makes you very good in your profession.

so this is your point, if Webber leads a team, he is more likely to get injured that if he is second fiddle on the team but playing more minutes? Webber is playing 39.3 mpg this year for 10th most in the league. Maybe it has something to do with him recovering more from a serious injury that takes a long time to recover. I don't think you can blame Adelman or Webber himself for the injuries. Injuries are just luck of the draw, yes Webber has had more than his fair share, but look at Duncan nowadays, he is injury prone, Shaq, injury prone, Amare is even injury prone. Most players aren't KG like and never experience injury for serious amounts of time throughout their career. Webber seems to have gotten mostly over his injury atleast offensively, defensively is another issue, but then again as I've pointed out previously we haven't done a good job fixing that either.

 

[twocents]

But he was the warrior, the leader. And now, the team is a rudderless ship. You cannot deny that reality, regardless of how you may feel about the financial or other aspects of the deal.

see, that he was not. at least, that is not how i remember him. making funny faces does not make you a warrior. if everyone else in here thinks that he was what you claim him to be, i will return to my state of oblivion.

 

[twocents]

Oh no, I'm afraid the whole point of this exhausting exercise is precisely TO attempt to deny that reality.

you know what? at this precise instance, i need the lost archives. i mean, i really give up. if you believe what you just said, you were right: this discussion is futile.

 

[love_them_kings]

see, that he was not. at least, that is not how i remember him. making funny faces does not make you a warrior. if everyone else in here thinks that he was what you claim him to be, i will return to my state of oblivion.

I disagree. Webb was a warrior. He wanted a championship, and would have done almost anything to make it happen. He believed in this team, and he led this team. I've been on the sidelines to see Webb rounding up the guys towards the end of a close game and do his "We can do this" speech. Was he perfect? No. Did everyone agree with everything that came out of his mouth? No. But his biggest fault may have been caring too much, and that's a problem I wish some of our current roster had.

 

[VF21]

see, that he was not. at least, that is not how i remember him. making funny faces does not make you a warrior. if everyone else in here thinks that he was what you claim him to be, i will return to my state of oblivion.

There are times in a debate when your opponent says something so far out in left field you simply have no response.

This is one of those times...

Have a nice evening!

 

[bigbadred00]

see, that he was not. at least, that is not how i remember him. making funny faces does not make you a warrior. if everyone else in here thinks that he was what you claim him to be, i will return to my state of oblivion.

so who was the leader than? most teams that win year after year have some sort of leader. maybe warrior is a strong word but he definitely was the leader of the team through and through. bibby might have taken a lot of clutch shots, but that doesn't make him the leader. he lead our team in game 7 of the Lakers-Kings blockbuster series, but how in the world do you think we got to that point............. Vlade was a great friend and passer but I wouldn't call him a leader. Peja definitely isnt, and Bibby doesn't want to seem to be one. Brad definitely is too ......too something to be.

 

[nbrans]

so who was the leader than? most teams that win year after year have some sort of leader. maybe warrior is a strong word but he definitely was the leader of the team through and through. bibby might have taken a lot of clutch shots, but that doesn't make him the leader. he lead our team in game 7 of the Lakers-Kings blockbuster series, but how in the world do you think we got to that point............. Vlade was a great friend and passer but I wouldn't call him a leader. Peja definitely isnt, and Bibby doesn't want to seem to be one. Brad definitely is too ......too something to be.

Kings had some of the best chemistry in the league until the '04-'05 offseason. And that chemistry dissolution coincided with the departure of Vlade Divac, not Chris Webber. Vlade was absolutely a leader on this team, and the shared spirit of Divac and Webber held the team together like glue. Once a split opened up and was laid bare after the Minnesota series, that was it for the chemistry we used to have.