[Grades] Grades v. Suns 11/20/2013

[mac]

Yeah he's great on D, but I don't see him as an all-star level player.

Yep well they've had a far more recent playoff run than we have, so in that sense we SHOULD have had more time to accumulate assets to rebuild with. Now it just goes down to them making good draft picks. So far Alex Len doesn't seem to fall in that category.

 

[jalfa]

sometime in the second the Kings had a lineup of IT/Jimmer/Salmons/PPat/Hayes out there that, while playing scrappy defence and performing quite well on offence, had trouble on the glass. at that point, I kept thinking that they could really use Outlaw there. in general, his use over the last few games has been puzzling. he basically saved our collective behinds against Memphis for a stretch, rebounds like a madman against these very same Suns and still doesn't get off the bench before Salmons does? what gives? of course he then comes out and decides to eschew his play as a useful roleplayer and fall back into Smartian iso-habits, but that can probably be chalked up to it being a blowout at that point and everybody kinda being in "gonna get mine" mode. anyway, more TrOut, less Fish, is what I'm saying.

also, wonder if Malone wanted to give Jimmer an extended look because he played well vs. the Suns in preseason or if this is actually a permanent change. with how he's been playing and how Marcus has been refusing to play, it should probably be the latter.

 

[Hadlowe]

As an unrepentant Jimmer fan, I kinda hope Marcus isn't done for the season. He had a slow start last year as well, but finished with a bang, shooting close to 50% and 40% from threes over the last two months of the season. He's a better player than he has shown in his 9 games this year.

 

[Hadlowe]

Yep well they've had a far more recent playoff run than we have, so in that sense we SHOULD have had more time to accumulate assets to rebuild with. Now it just goes down to them making good draft picks. So far Alex Len doesn't seem to fall in that category.

Len looks iffy, yes. Big men I typically give more leeway on development. Cousins has taken 4 years to get where he is. Deandre Jordan is no great shakes defensively, but he is is 800% better than his rookie year. I'll give my estimate on Len in 2-3 years.

 

[Hadlowe]

The major difference between Phoenix and Sac is Cousins. I don't just mean as a size matchup, but as a premier talent the type of which Phoenix just doesn't have. I know they're missing Bledsoe, but Bledsoe is Isaiah Thomas level talent. A good guy to have and a potential 6th man stud. I feel Hornacek is doing a good job coaching for them, and even though he is stuck in tanksville, I do love seeing his expressions on the sideline.

I hope Cousins' shoulder is better by Saturday. I felt he's had trouble finishing inside since the injury and that will be even tougher to do against the Clippers.

I disagree. Bledsoe is as good a 2-way point guard as there is in the league. As much as I like IT, I would trade Thomas for Bledsoe in a heartbeat.

 

[CruzDude]

Suns fans are interesting. Polite, cheered the 3's and fast breaks but that was about it. In fact in the intros of Suns players they had PIPED IN CROWD NOISE! Very easy to notice. But at no time did anyone really try to or get the crowd back into the game. 'Course the Kings had a big hand in that.

Early on when Green was hitting all his 3’s over MLM Coach left him in there as quite a learning lesson, I guess. Then in 3rd MAM kinda locked him down. This was a better all-around game than Nets win and Cuz really keeping his cool. Also the Kings did not look or act tired at any point in the game and kept energy up even during the 4th quarter onslaught by the Suns. Wow!! 44 points allowed in the 4th and Kings still won! That is never give up for sure and "a small step for Kings and a giant leap for KingsFans".

 

[Kingster]

I'd vote for this being the best played game of the season. (I just don't count the NJ game where they laid down and died in the first quarter). As another poster said, Cousins made some very good passes in this game. It could have been his best passing game of the young season. He seemed to be taking his time rather than rushing things. One pass he made down the stretch for a made shot was key in securing the game.

I hope Malone keeps playing the same guys for many games to come. I'd like Jimmer to continue to get some consistent minutes in lieu of Thornton; I think that will help him a lot in providing consistent play. The Prince is a valuable addition to this team. In this next game against the Clippers he could have a big impact in his defense on Crawford and Redick, both of whom have killed the Kings in the past.

 

[mac]

Interesting note by Brick on Hayes' FGM-FGAs. 4th basket of the season, and if I'm right his 3rd was also on a set up from Jimmer. So half his FGs have been handed to him on a silver platter by none other than Jimmer Fredette! I think he owes Jimmer lunch

 

[mac]

I'd vote for this being the best played game of the season. (I just don't count the NJ game where they laid down and died in the first quarter). As another poster said, Cousins made some very good passes in this game. It could have been his best passing game of the young season. He seemed to be taking his time rather than rushing things. One pass he made down the stretch for a made shot was key in securing the game.

I hope Malone keeps playing the same guys for many games to come. I'd like Jimmer to continue to get some consistent minutes in lieu of Thornton; I think that will help him a lot in providing consistent play. The Prince is a valuable addition to this team. In this next game against the Clippers he could have a big impact in his defense on Crawford and Redick, both of whom have killed the Kings in the past.

I'm also somewhat hoping that Jimmer gets a chance to guard Redick, just to get a feel for the kind of speed, curls and cuts necessary to succeed in such a role. Jimmer has a lot to learn in terms of his off-ball movement to get free for shots, and having to guard someone in that mold will certainly aid his development.

 

[Hadlowe]

Interesting note by Brick on Hayes' FGM-FGAs. 4th basket of the season, and if I'm right his 3rd was also on a set up from Jimmer. So half his FGs have been handed to him on a silver platter by none other than Jimmer Fredette! I think he owes Jimmer lunch

Nobody, and I mean nobody, gets lunch from Hayes. You thought his post defense was solid?

 

[Kingster]

I'm also somewhat hoping that Jimmer gets a chance to guard Redick, just to get a feel for the kind of speed, curls and cuts necessary to succeed in such a role. Jimmer has a lot to learn in terms of his off-ball movement to get free for shots, and having to guard someone in that mold will certainly aid his development.

Agreed. Redick is a guy who didn't exactly burst onto the NBA scene in a ball of glory. He looks to be a good role model for Jimmer.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

As an unrepentant Jimmer fan, I kinda hope Marcus isn't done for the season. He had a slow start last year as well, but finished with a bang, shooting close to 50% and 40% from threes over the last two months of the season. He's a better player than he has shown in his 9 games this year.

He's a better "player",..or a better shooter?

 

[Hadlowe]

He's a better "player",..or a better shooter?

Well, since a shooting guard's shot is a pretty important part of who they are as a player, I'd say both?

 

[Npliam]

Agreed. Redick is a guy who didn't exactly burst onto the NBA scene in a ball of glory. He looks to be a good role model for Jimmer.

Jimmer and Reddick had totally different games in college.

 

[ppine]

Good points above. I am happy to see some consensus regarding IT's ability on defense. NBA quality PGs are tough to defend almost every night. After watching GV struggle with Dragic, IT is more appreciated.

There are some definite changes happening on defense. It will take some more time. Luc is going to really help. Kings are running the floor better. Rebounding has improved. Malone is very wise to use so many players for a back to back pair of games.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

People's opinions of Vasquez fascinate me: I mean, I generally have little more than disdain for "pure" or "pass-first" point guards, but people on this forum have claimed that this is what they've wanted for years. And now we have one, one who makes it his job to find our star-in-the-making in the offense, shooting 47 percent from the field (a perfectly acceptable percentage for a guard), 92 percent from the line, and has an assist-to-turnover ratio* around 4:1, and all I hear about is how much this guy sucks? Really?

*- Discounting the 8-turnover game, of course.

 

[Fear the Putin]

People's opinions of Vasquez fascinate me: I mean, I generally have little more than disdain for "pure" or "pass-first" point guards, but people on this forum have claimed that this is what they've wanted for years. And now we have one, one who makes it his job to find our star-in-the-making in the offense, shooting 47 percent from the field (a perfectly acceptable percentage for a guard), 92 percent from the line, and has an assist-to-turnover* around 4:1, and all I hear about is how much this guy sucks? Really?

*- Discounting the 8-turnover game, of course.

Well, I'd substitute him for Rondo in a heartbeat. I love Vasquez's pass-first mentality, but I don't know if it's his continuing recovery from ankle surgery or what, but he moves like molasses on defense.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Is that all you got? Defense? Did I take a bump on the head? Or are we all going to pretend that this isn't the same community that deified Jason Williams and Mike Bibby for years?

 

[rainmaker]

People's opinions of Vasquez fascinate me: I mean, I generally have little more than disdain for "pure" or "pass-first" point guards, but people on this forum have claimed that this is what they've wanted for years. And now we have one, one who makes it his job to find our star-in-the-making in the offense, shooting 47 percent from the field (a perfectly acceptable percentage for a guard), 92 percent from the line, and has an assist-to-turnover ratio* around 4:1, and all I hear about is how much this guy sucks? Really?

*- Discounting the 8-turnover game, of course.

I've always disliked the "pure PG" types and don't think their game translates to this era of NBA ball, especially ones who are of little offensive threat like Vasquez. It likely is Minn's biggest weakness as well unless they get a legit 3rd scoring option, that being Rubio's inability to be a scoring threat in any capacity, and he's a better "pure PG" than we have here. Even Nash was quite a threat to score in his prime so really I think this "pure PG" conversation and supporters of that type have always lacked context. Rondo I think is a very good pure PG but he brings a helluva lot more to the game. Rebounding, lock down defense, good finisher in the paint and the ability to penetrate and get into the lane no matter how much defenses sag off. But he's also one of a kind at this time.

But none of this should come as a surprise regarding Vasquez to anyone who's watched him previously. Some got wet at the thought of a pure PG, a high assist PG and thought that'd answer many of our problems, not acknowledging his many weaknesses and how those can effect the team dynamic. They also didn't take into account NO's system which often inflates PG assist numbers due to the incredibly high usage rate and lack of even a 2nd ballhandler on the court much of the time. Sure Vasquez had high assist numbers in NO but in reality it was just a higher % of a team with extremely average assist totals. As soon as there was another option to play through(Cuz) or if there had been another ballhandler next to him his assist numbers were going to plummet, then what are you left with? Sure a guy who makes some very nice passes, maybe two per quarter but also a guy who doesn't help in other areas. I've also noticed from what I've read no one has brought up the often discussed issue we had with Reke where defenses didn't respect his jumper and played off him. Well, we have that now with Vasquez as well, but he doesn't have nearly the ability to penetrate as Reke did even with defenses laying off.

Just going off who we played the last two games, I'd take Dragic over Vasquez any day of the week and I don't rate Dragic as a top 10 PG, probably around 15.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

To whatever extent that may be true, it still smacks of "grass is always greener" syndrome, to me.

 

[pshn80]

Well, I'd substitute him for Rondo in a heartbeat. I love Vasquez's pass-first mentality, but I don't know if it's his continuing recovery from ankle surgery or what, but he moves like molasses on defense.

And he will for all the many years he is a useful, productive PG for a winning Kings basketball team.

 

[pshn80]

V is not fast enough to be a great defender against most quick PGs but he does my work for me, he sets up other players first on offense and does it well and I'll keep him and his spirit as an assrt to the team. Now who shall we discuss next?

 

[Glenn]

I've always disliked the "pure PG" types and don't think their game translates to this era of NBA ball, especially ones who are of little offensive threat like Vasquez. It likely is Minn's biggest weakness as well unless they get a legit 3rd scoring option, that being Rubio's inability to be a scoring threat in any capacity, and he's a better "pure PG" than we have here. Even Nash was quite a threat to score in his prime so really I think this "pure PG" conversation and supporters of that type have always lacked context. Rondo I think is a very good pure PG but he brings a helluva lot more to the game. Rebounding, lock down defense, good finisher in the paint and the ability to penetrate and get into the lane no matter how much defenses sag off. But he's also one of a kind at this time.

But none of this should come as a surprise regarding Vasquez to anyone who's watched him previously. Some got wet at the thought of a pure PG, a high assist PG and thought that'd answer many of our problems, not acknowledging his many weaknesses and how those can effect the team dynamic. They also didn't take into account NO's system which often inflates PG assist numbers due to the incredibly high usage rate and lack of even a 2nd ballhandler on the court much of the time. Sure Vasquez had high assist numbers in NO but in reality it was just a higher % of a team with extremely average assist totals. As soon as there was another option to play through(Cuz) or if there had been another ballhandler next to him his assist numbers were going to plummet, then what are you left with? Sure a guy who makes some very nice passes, maybe two per quarter but also a guy who doesn't help in other areas. I've also noticed from what I've read no one has brought up the often discussed issue we had with Reke where defenses didn't respect his jumper and played off him. Well, we have that now with Vasquez as well, but he doesn't have nearly the ability to penetrate as Reke did even with defenses laying off.

Just going off who we played the last two games, I'd take Dragic over Vasquez any day of the week and I don't rate Dragic as a top 10 PG, probably around 15.

I agree which may not come as a surprise. I'm willing to let him play the season out.

This team is improving for whatever reason. Some may be that the Suns suck. I think also the players are getting used to each other and certainly the coach is beginning to understand his players. He is learning to get the most out of what he has as a few players who haven't played under a legitimate coach for awhile must adjust to competence. Give Malone a year with Vasquez and if he isn't suited for this team, he will not be resigned. We are not in a bad position with this guy.

 

[Henkel]

Is that all you got? Defense? Did I take a bump on the head? Or are we all going to pretend that this isn't the same community that deified Jason Williams and Mike Bibby for years?

I could give two craps about past King's culture.

He got run off the floor last night by freaking Goran Dragic. I'm not going to list them but every playoff team out west is sporting a more talented pg then Dragic, possible exception with Calderon on the Mavs. He's a liability and his current, and hopefully future, back court partner isn't a natural defender. So what's the plan? If we had Christie or some equivalent back there maybe you could sell me on a back court that involves Vasquez, but we don't. If were serious about being a defensive team then we can't go forward long term with Vasquez.

 

[bajaden]

As an unrepentant Jimmer fan, I kinda hope Marcus isn't done for the season. He had a slow start last year as well, but finished with a bang, shooting close to 50% and 40% from threes over the last two months of the season. He's a better player than he has shown in his 9 games this year.

The trouble with Thornton, is that he's the antithesis of ball movement. He's at this best when he has the ball and has carte blanche to do as he pleases. The problem is, that when he actually tries to play the way they want him to play, he becomes ineffective. When Malone was at New Orleans, Thornton ended up riding the bench. Looks like Malone/Thornton part two.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I could give two craps about past King's culture.

Cool story, bro!

... He's a liability and his current, and hopefully future, back court partner isn't a natural defender. So what's the plan? If we had Christie or some equivalent back there maybe you could sell me on a back court that involves Vasquez, but we don't...

What? Weren't people saying, around draft time, that defensive potential was one of MacLemore's strengths?

 

[pshn80]

I could give two craps about past King's culture.

He got run off the floor last night by freaking Goran Dragic. I'm not going to list them but every playoff team out west is sporting a more talented pg then Dragic, possible exception with Calderon on the Mavs. He's a liability and his current, and hopefully future, back court partner isn't a natural defender. So what's the plan? If we had Christie or some equivalent back there maybe you could sell me on a back court that involves Vasquez, but we don't. If were serious about being a defensive team then we can't go forward long term with Vasquez.

pshn80 comment
We won the game in part because of v's good play. So why the death Nell for V? We all know and knew about his defense before he played à minute. I think he is a key to improving the team play. Just a difference of opinion , I guess.

 

[Henkel]

Cool story, bro!

Thanks brah!

It's gotten better over the years, still the fantasy of recreating that team of legend or using that team as a template is fairly prevalent around these parts. It's time to move on to stuff that's relevant, also know as reality.

What? Weren't people saying, around draft time, that defensive potential was one of MacLemore's strengths?

Sure in the way that every great athlete is a potential great defender. You've probably seen more basketball then me Slim, but from what I've seen while defense inevitably improves over early campaigns most good and almost all great defenders have a natural inclination.

 

[bajaden]

I could give two craps about past King's culture.

He got run off the floor last night by freaking Goran Dragic. I'm not going to list them but every playoff team out west is sporting a more talented pg then Dragic, possible exception with Calderon on the Mavs. He's a liability and his current, and hopefully future, back court partner isn't a natural defender. So what's the plan? If we had Christie or some equivalent back there maybe you could sell me on a back court that involves Vasquez, but we don't. If were serious about being a defensive team then we can't go forward long term with Vasquez.

I've felt for some time that Vasquez is a short term fix for this year. And that's using the term fix rather loosely. Don't know about his ankle, but there's no doubt that he has serious trouble keeping his opponent in front of him. Jimmer looked like a lock down defender last night by comparison. As a matter of fact, I want to throw some props Jimmer's way. I thought he looked very good on defense. Wasn't sure if it was him for a while.

Anyway, I digress. I can't imagine a contending team with Vasquez as the starting PG. At least not from what I've seen so far. To me he looks like a poor man's Calderon. Say what you want about Calderon, but he can shoot the hell out of the ball, and that keeps teams honest. Vasquez has been getting a lot of open looks from the three, and there's a reason for that. The problem is, his man is the first to cheat off and double on Cuz.

 

[Henkel]

pshn80 comment
We won the game in part because of v's good play. So why the death Nell for V? We all know and knew about his defense before he played à minute. I think he is a key to improving the team play. Just a difference of opinion , I guess.

Just an opinion of course. I just don't see how you build a good defensive team with a Vasquez McLemore backcourt.