[Grades] Grades v. Suns 11/20/2013

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

It's gotten better over the years, still the fantasy of recreating that team of legend or using that team as a template is fairly prevalent around these parts. It's time to move on to stuff that's relevant, also know as reality.

If that's what you got out of what I typed, then you read it wrong.

 

[Henkel]

If that's what you got out of what I typed, then you read it wrong.

My bad then. I saw references to pg's of Kings past as some kind of justification for Vasquez instead of a critique on the hypocrisy of kings fans? I dunno maybe I missed your point again, send me illustration or something.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

It was the second one.

 

[rainmaker]

To whatever extent that may be true, it still smacks of "grass is always greener" syndrome, to me.

Yes, but that isn't limited to the PG debate either.

Sure we had people wanting George Hill or Darren Collison or Rubio instead of Reke, but we also had people wanting Gortat over Cuz.

IMO the "grass is greener" crowd generally harps non-stop on the weaknesses of one of our own, ignoring the strengths, then brings up the strengths of some other player, often ignoring that player's weaknesses. It's the entire package which counts. Get 2-3 players who contribute nightly on both sides of the ball and fill up the stat sheet in multiple categories, then surround those 2-3 players with specialists, not vice versa.

 

[Chubbs]

Cool story, bro!


What? Weren't people saying, around draft time, that defensive potential was one of MacLemore's strengths?

And still is. Sheesh people change course quick sometimes. Nothing about Mclemores future has been decided after ten games.

It is quite odd that our gm decided to give his defensive minded coach a PG that is really terrible at defense. That was a known thing. I'm hoping that he can at least play decent team d, but he's even worse than I imagined.

It seems quite unlikely he's part of the future. He may even be on the list of guys being aggressively shopped. Heck, mbah a moute might be too. I guess my point is, don't go falling in love kings fans, no one is safe except cuz and mclemore. Changes are coming, it's inevitable some will be controversial around here.

 

[The Hammer]

My bad then. I saw references to pg's of Kings past as some kind of justification for Vasquez instead of a critique on the hypocrisy of kings fans? I dunno maybe I missed your point again, send me illustration or something.

It sounds like you're more interested in hearing yourself rant than understanding another person's nuanced and sophisticated point of view.

 

[VF21]

...
It is quite odd that our gm decided to give his defensive minded coach a PG that is really terrible at defense. That was a known thing. I'm hoping that he can at least play decent team d, but he's even worse than I imagined. ...

To be fair, it's not like PDA went out looking to trade for GV. He did the best he could, IMHO, to get something back for Reke that might be beneficial.

 

[The_Jamal]

To be fair, it's not like PDA went out looking to trade for GV. He did the best he could, IMHO, to get something back for Reke that might be beneficial.

yea, I see people bring that up on occasion like we actively looked to trade Reke for Gv. No, we decided not to resign Reke and GV was our way of not losing Reke for nothing

 

[The_Jamal]

Folks, it's still too early in the season to be making sweeping declarations about how anybody is playing. No, GV doesn't have the same APG as last season, but there are reasons for that. The issue with counting stats (RPG, APG, PPG) is they are often dependent on the amount of minutes you get. Vasquez is averaging 7 less so far this season. He's also dealing with having to adjust his game to see how he fits in with 2 far more ball-dominant guys than he was used to last season with NO with Cuz and IT. I've never had a serious ankle injury, but I can't imagine it's something you recover from in a month.

 

[Hadlowe]

Folks, it's still too early in the season to be making sweeping declarations about how anybody is playing. No, GV doesn't have the same APG as last season, but there are reasons for that. The issue with counting stats (RPG, APG, PPG) is they are often dependent on the amount of minutes you get. Vasquez is averaging 7 less so far this season. He's also dealing with having to adjust his game to see how he fits in with 2 far more ball-dominant guys than he was used to last season with NO with Cuz and IT. I've never had a serious ankle injury, but I can't imagine it's something you recover from in a month.

He is averaging 2.5 fewer assists per 36. I attribute that to a focus on feeding the post. Defensively, he has been as bad as advertised. Bad enough that I can't see him as a long term solution. I'll cheer for him every game this season and then hope the Kings try to get Kyle Lowry in free agency.

 

[VF21]

He is averaging 2.5 fewer assists per 36. I attribute that to a focus on feeding the post. Defensively, he has been as bad as advertised. Bad enough that I can't see him as a long term solution. I'll cheer for him every game this season and then hope the Kings try to get Kyle Lowry in free agency.

Don't assists also require the person receiving the pass to make the bucket? I'd like to see a stat on attempted assists...

 

[King Baller]

I thought Vasquez had a pretty good game. 13 pts, 5 reb and 6 assists. Went 9 for 9 for ft's and the Kings won

I give him a B.

KB

 

[The_Jamal]

He is averaging 2.5 fewer assists per 36. I attribute that to a focus on feeding the post. Defensively, he has been as bad as advertised. Bad enough that I can't see him as a long term solution. I'll cheer for him every game this season and then hope the Kings try to get Kyle Lowry in free agency.

I seem to recall a majority of his playing time this season coming with Thornton, Salmons, and Patterson. Or otherwise known as their other collective group name "Where assists go to die."

He's still one of the better shot creators in the game and he's incredibly efficient offensively. Defense has sucked, but I've been pleased with his offensive production.

 

[Tetsujin]

He is averaging 2.5 fewer assists per 36. I attribute that to a focus on feeding the post. Defensively, he has been as bad as advertised. Bad enough that I can't see him as a long term solution. I'll cheer for him every game this season and then hope the Kings try to get Kyle Lowry in free agency.

Not necessarily directed at you but the constant fascination with Lowry and Aaron Afflalo from almost the second the dudes entered the league confounds me. Good players but are they really the only people we can think of as being fit for our roster?

 

[pshn80]

We're grading a game and this impacts the future? We win the game and somebody is lingering on our poor defense. Great game guys, now next time don't let them score 44 in the 4th. That's practical!

 

[William Blake]

Don't assists also require the person receiving the pass to make the bucket? I'd like to see a stat on attempted assists...

Thanks to the fancy SportsVU cameras there's the "assist opportunities per game" stat, that stands for: passes by a player to a teammate in which the teammate attempts a shot, and if made, would be an assist.
Here are the numbers:


There's no automatic way that I know of to automatically put these numbers per 36 or to download a nice and clean csv but it's pretty clear that, accounting for minutes playes, Greivis is a willing passer and his teammates are missing a fair amount of shots.

Anyway, one can estimate how many assists per game Vasquez would have if he was playing with average shooting teammates.
I'm no statistician so there's a high probability that Capt. reads this and spits out whatever he's eating, but whatever.

The result:
Vasquez's per 36 assists: 7.2
Vasquez's per 36 assists with average shooting teammates: 9.2, in line with his New Orleans production

Takes this with a grain of salt though, NBA.com lineup charts are quite messy and half of the minutes are missing. In short: very small sample size.

EDIT: found the complete numbers, now it's 9.7 assists per 36 with average shooting teammates.

 

[Hadlowe]

Thanks to the fancy SportsVU cameras there's the "assist opportunities per game" stat, that stands for: passes by a player to a teammate in which the teammate attempts a shot, and if made, would be an assist.
Here are the numbers:


There's no automatic way that I know of to automatically put these numbers per 36 or to download a nice and clean csv but it's pretty clear that, accounting for minutes playes, Greivis is a willing passer and his teammates are missing a fair amount of shots.

Anyway, one can estimate how many assists per game Vasquez would have if he was playing with average shooting teammates.
I'm no statistician so there's a high probability that Capt. reads this and spits out whatever he's eating, but whatever.

The result:
Vasquez's per 36 assists: 7.2
Vasquez's per 36 assists with average shooting teammates: 9.2, in line with his New Orleans production

Takes this with a grain of salt though, NBA.com lineup charts are quite messy and half of the minutes are missing. In short: very small sample size.

Apparently I was unclear in what I meant. I'm not criticizing Vasquez' playmaking. He is playing a slightly different role in a different system which will result in fewer assists. He is a good floor general, but that defense is troublesome. I would accept a lesser playmaker if he could make plays on the other end of the floor.

I mention Lowry because he is, in my estimation, the best 2-way point guard who is also an unrestricted free agent next year. We could go after Bledsoe, but would have to break the bank to do so as Phoenix will probably match any offer on him.

 

[Kingster]

I've felt for some time that Vasquez is a short term fix for this year. And that's using the term fix rather loosely. Don't know about his ankle, but there's no doubt that he has serious trouble keeping his opponent in front of him. Jimmer looked like a lock down defender last night by comparison. As a matter of fact, I want to throw some props Jimmer's way. I thought he looked very good on defense. Wasn't sure if it was him for a while.

Anyway, I digress. I can't imagine a contending team with Vasquez as the starting PG. At least not from what I've seen so far. To me he looks like a poor man's Calderon. Say what you want about Calderon, but he can shoot the hell out of the ball, and that keeps teams honest. Vasquez has been getting a lot of open looks from the three, and there's a reason for that. The problem is, his man is the first to cheat off and double on Cuz.

I agree. I think it's highly doubtful Vasquez is resigned. If he can't start, and he can't be a spark off the bench (and I don't think that's his game), then he can't play for your team.

 

[William Blake]

Apparently I was unclear in what I meant. I'm not criticizing Vasquez' playmaking. He is playing a slightly different role in a different system which will result in fewer assists. He is a good floor general, but that defense is troublesome. I would accept a lesser playmaker if he could make plays on the other end of the floor.

My post was a direct reply to VF21's not yours. Anyway he's not playing in a role that results in fewer assists, his numbers are down because his teammates are shooting the ball awfully.
I agree with the last part though, I'm a Vasquez fan as long as we pay him 3 millions per year. If and when he gets closer to double digits salary the gaudy assist numbers won't be enough to cover for the lack of defense and the scoring inefficiency.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Anyway, one can estimate how many assists per game Vasquez would have if he was playing with average shooting teammates.
I'm no statistician so there's a high probability that Capt. reads this and spits out whatever he's eating, but whatever.

Oh, don't worry about that, I don't usually eat breakfast.

You didn't say how you calculated the number, but I'm sure it's a reasonable estimate. (I would be tempted to just take that top 25 list and calculate Ast/AstOpp rather than use raw team shooting percentages because an AstOpp'ed shot may have a different shooting percentage.)

 

[pshn80]

I'm happy to have Vasquez, I want him to continue in the starting lineup, and our defense is better this year and improving.

 

[VF21]

My post was a direct reply to VF21's not yours. Anyway he's not playing in a role that results in fewer assists, his numbers are down because his teammates are shooting the ball awfully.
I agree with the last part though, I'm a Vasquez fan as long as we pay him 3 millions per year. If and when he gets closer to double digits salary the gaudy assist numbers won't be enough to cover for the lack of defense and the scoring inefficiency.

Thank you.

Am I reading that correctly? In a little over 27 minutes per game, Vasquez is averaging 51.8 passes PER GAME?

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Thank you.

Am I reading that correctly? In a little over 27 minutes per game, Vasquez is averaging 51.8 passes PER GAME?

I think that's the interpretation. But that's not an outrageous number, as it's going to include swing passes around the perimeter and such. With the 24-second clock you figure 2.5 possessions per minute at minimum, so at least 68 possessions, 34 per team. Some possessions he won't touch the ball (e.g. fast breaks or when IT brings it up), some possessions he'll shoot or turn it over without giving it up, but otherwise he has to pass at least once (and he can get the ball back...)

 

[Bricklayer]

Thanks to the fancy SportsVU cameras there's the "assist opportunities per game" stat, that stands for: passes by a player to a teammate in which the teammate attempts a shot, and if made, would be an assist.
Here are the numbers:


There's no automatic way that I know of to automatically put these numbers per 36 or to download a nice and clean csv but it's pretty clear that, accounting for minutes playes, Greivis is a willing passer and his teammates are missing a fair amount of shots.

Anyway, one can estimate how many assists per game Vasquez would have if he was playing with average shooting teammates.
I'm no statistician so there's a high probability that Capt. reads this and spits out whatever he's eating, but whatever.

The result:
Vasquez's per 36 assists: 7.2
Vasquez's per 36 assists with average shooting teammates: 9.2, in line with his New Orleans production

Takes this with a grain of salt though, NBA.com lineup charts are quite messy and half of the minutes are missing. In short: very small sample size.

EDIT: found the complete numbers, now it's 9.7 assists per 36 with average shooting teammates.

Now these are the sorts of numbers I have been looking forward to with the new camera system. Its still just numbers. Numbers still require knowledge to properly interpret, but these are real stats. As real as any raw stat. Not some tool's made up formula mushing stats together in whatever balance he thinks is the be all.

 

[VF21]

I think that's the interpretation. But that's not an outrageous number, as it's going to include swing passes around the perimeter and such. With the 24-second clock you figure 2.5 possessions per minute at minimum, so at least 68 possessions, 34 per team. Some possessions he won't touch the ball (e.g. fast breaks or when IT brings it up), some possessions he'll shoot or turn it over without giving it up, but otherwise he has to pass at least once (and he can get the ball back...)

I didn't think it was outrageous. I thought it was a pretty clear indication that GV is more than willing to move the orb.

 

[Chubbs]

To be fair, it's not like PDA went out looking to trade for GV. He did the best he could, IMHO, to get something back for Reke that might be beneficial.

You're right. It was trying to get something out of a bad situation. It's still just amazing how he's such the polar opposite of what i would assume a Malone type player would be like. Except for the unselfishness.

 

[Tetsujin]

You're right. It was trying to get something out of a bad situation. It's still just amazing how he's such the polar opposite of what i would assume a Malone type player would be like. Except for the unselfishness.

I know he hasn't been Malone's ideal defender but I think he's been what Malone and the front office have been looking for in terms of guys to change the culture of the team, both through his playing style and demeanor. Having an unselfish, fiery guy goes a long way towards changing the culture of selfishness and laziness that was so prevalent around the team during the post-Brad/Bibby years.

 

[swisshh]

With the camera tracking system, they should be able to measure how open a player is on those assist opportunities. Curious to see if they can an average of space a shooter has to shoot on a pass or how close a player is to the rim after a pass.

 

[jalfa]

With the camera tracking system, they should be able to measure how open a player is on those assist opportunities. Curious to see if they can an average of space a shooter has to shoot on a pass or how close a player is to the rim after a pass.

pretty sure those exist already. dunno if they're being made available for the general public, though.

 

[Revenge]

What I fear will happen... and knowing the Kings, most likely will happen...

MT will come back in a game, have one of his "1 in every 7 games" high scoring games, and boom, just like that he'll be back in the rotation and the Kings will be back to losing games.