ESPN: Greatest Beatdowns: #95 NBA Referees vs. Kings

[vladetomiller]

Supe -

Game 6 4th quarter was badly officiated , I dont know why I am repeating myself, maybe cos you keep saying that I dont think that.
I watched the first few minutes and I knew the lakers would win, absolutely no doubt in my mind, it was not that the refs called all of the 4th quarter badly, all they had to do was set up the first few calls so that the lakers got into penalty early and were shooting FTs from like the 4th minute. Thats what was the trick and not necessarily bad calls all quarter long.

On the other hand, I will again insist that Game 5 was called in the kings favour and I knew that the kings would win that game, you rarely see a game where the opposing centers collectively get called for 4 fouls and shaq gets fouled out and attempts only one FT all game long

I believe Stern was behind the whole series and I dont want to isolate just game 6 in the whole fiasco.

Beb-

There are a few replays that clearly showed the ball going off Webber and there was no other player near that corner, the same way you can contend the calls the lakers got the lakers fans will question the moving screen on fisher to free bibby up. (Maybe Adelman drew that play since he knew the refs wouldnt call it )

I accept your point about Shaq, they called offensive fouls on him for the clear out, if you dont let shaq do that he is just one big fella standing there who can only dunk the ball given an opportunity.

But the nba is to be blamed for that, wouldnt you agree, how do you call the whole season in one way and start calling just one game the other way, very very easy to manipulate the result of a game. it just seems like they interpret the rules differently from game to game, thus giving the perception that the players dont decide the game.

Lane violation - Same thing, can you show me one free throw in the nba where the players dont crowd the lane before the ball being released from the shooter, it seems like a random event when they call a lane violation, it is to shaqs benefit when a violation is called more because he gets to shoot more.

Lane violation is arule that is there from the time lanes were created, its laughable that the refs have to be reminded about it. Its like reminding a driver that you should stop when there is a red light, how stupid is it to remind the refs of rules that they are not following or not calling.

I will give you guys some more , not just the lakers kings series, go and watch the lakers spurs series as well, all games 4th quarter belonged to the lakers, they got the calls. They entered pretty much every game into the 4th quarter with a deficit. They shot more FTs than the spurs in all 4th quarters. I visit spurs forums as well, the good thing I see over there is that the fans who question the refs are not biased and they question how even their players get the calls, like if you breathe on timmy you get a foul.

Lastly, while you are at shaqs elbows, when the defender hugs shaq to stop him from taking a shot technically is it a flagrant foul or not.

 

[Superman]

Supe -

Game 6 4th quarter was badly officiated , I dont know why I am repeating myself, maybe cos you keep saying that I dont think that.

First off, I do not recall you conceding that, and I looked back through the thread to find it, but was not able to. You will have to help me out on that. I remember you making a case that the free throw disparity in the 4th quarter was not quite as bad as us Kings fans thought it was. I guess I must have misinterpreted what you wrote:

...chris ended up guarding shaq for the rest of the game and though he committed a few fouls and should have fouled out as well, the refs kept him in the game and he was playing with 5 fouls for close to 5 minutes of the fourth quarter.

Interestingly, game 5 Vlade and Scott got 4 fouls together (3 vlade) and managed to get shaq to foul out of the game (Joe Crafford was the referee for that game )

It is like the secret that is whispered into another persons ear, the truth gets distorted after every such post little by little, and I am sure in another 5 years it will be stated as the lakers got all their points in free throws.

...

Ah, here it is, after what is quoted above:

I have been stating all along that the lakers got the calls in game 6, make no doubt about that ...

Followed by this comment, which basically amounts to a disclaimer:

... but I also will say that the kings got the calls in game 5 and the pistons got the calls in that series.

So you can see where I got confused, can't you?

But, as I have said, while the Kings got some borderline calls in their favor in Game 5, it wasn't so egregious that five years later, random sports writers are still referencing the game as one of the worst officiated playoff games in the history of sports. That honor goes to Game 6, and the reasons have been highlighted and rehashed over and over again in this thread.

And that is not the product of a few Kings fans sensationalizing the impact that the officiating had on that game and the final outcome of the series. It is fact. Had the officials called the game right, the series would have ended that night. The fact is, the Kings got robbed out that game.

 

[beb0p]

Supe -


There are a few replays that clearly showed the ball going off Webber and there was no other player near that corner, the same way you can contend the calls the lakers got the lakers fans will question the moving screen on fisher to free bibby up. (Maybe Adelman drew that play since he knew the refs wouldnt call it )

I accept your point about Shaq, they called offensive fouls on him for the clear out, if you dont let shaq do that he is just one big fella standing there who can only dunk the ball given an opportunity.

But the nba is to be blamed for that, wouldnt you agree, how do you call the whole season in one way and start calling just one game the other way, very very easy to manipulate the result of a game. it just seems like they interpret the rules differently from game to game, thus giving the perception that the players dont decide the game.

Lane violation - Same thing, can you show me one free throw in the nba where the players dont crowd the lane before the ball being released from the shooter, it seems like a random event when they call a lane violation, it is to shaqs benefit when a violation is called more because he gets to shoot more.

When I say lane violation, I'm not talking about players crowding the lane. Even though it happens often in the NBA, who cares about that. The Kings did it as well as the Lakers.

I'm referring to the player (Shaq) shooting FTs with his front foot landing pass the FT line before the shot is released or before the ball hit rim/net. This is a clear violation because you're essentially shooting the FT from like 13 ft. No one else in the NBA does it, not even Shaq in the regular season. And if you play competitive basketball you know the refs will call that every time. And we're not talking about a one-time/two-time violation, he did it almost everytime he went to the line in the entire series. And if you're going to give Shaq some slack because he can't shoot FTs, fine. Let the Kings shoot FTs from 13 feet too and we win game 7.

As for the replays that "clearly" shows the ball went off Webber, I saw them too. They are just as inconclusive. But in every replay, it is clearly shown that the ref was just a few feet away and he was cearly on top of things. If the call was blown, it is not just a bad call, it is a scandal!

As for Shaq fouling out in Game 5. It was Shaq and other Lakers who limited Shaq's effectiveness. Not the refs. You can't just based everything on stats alone. How many times did Kobe ignore the big man? How many times did the Lakers fail to give Shaq the ball? How many times did Vlade and Pollard actually had to guard Shaq? How many times did Shaq get the ball in a position he could do something with it? You start digging deeper and you'll see.

I don't know if the refs call anything the same regarding one team for the entire season. Maybe if I follow the Lakers I'd get some sense that there are some things Shaq or Kobe are allowed to get away with the entire season and therefore unfair to take them away during the playoffs. But I follow the Kings, and the Kings don't get the same calls from game to game, let alone the entire season.

And if the refs allow my PG to take three steps to the basket and breathing fouls on my PF. I'd be pretty chill about this ref thing like the Spur fans too.

 

[vladetomiller]

So you can see where I got confused, can't you?

But, as I have said, while the Kings got some borderline calls in their favor in Game 5, it wasn't so egregious that five years later, random sports writers are still referencing the game as one of the worst officiated playoff games in the history of sports. That honor goes to Game 6, and the reasons have been highlighted and rehashed over and over again in this thread.

And that is not the product of a few Kings fans sensationalizing the impact that the officiating had on that game and the final outcome of the series. It is fact. Had the officials called the game right, the series would have ended that night. The fact is, the Kings got robbed out that game.

No I cant see why you confuse the two, maybe because you think I have an interior motive, where as I do not. I think the refs messed up that series so much, game 5 was kings to take and game 6 was lakers to take, thats my stance on that series. I am not going to change my stance on game 5 and I find it interesting that you ignore game 5.

All the sportswriters are over game 6 because that set up the series for the lakers, if the kings had won that series in 6 I am sure many of the lakers fans will be complaining all over the place about game 5 and it will be a sensational topic. Random sports writers have taken it up as a job and I dont think they have any much more insight than what you and me have, they are just better at writing and editing I guess. Read some of the blabber from these random guys and you can figure out they have no clue. They know that the casual fan will fall for the 27 foul or 27 FT claim and might become sensational actually.

I am trying to be objective here (I have said that the lakers got the win in game 6 with help from the refs ) and if you go and look at the replay, let me know which foul calls you dont like in that quarter. The thing that set them up was not bad calls through out the quarter, it was the first two minutes that set it up and the rest of the quarter was even imo.

1- Take pollard away with two quick fouls and a foul out
2. Take Vlade away with 5th foul and take his offense out of the high post game, lakers dont have to really worry about funderburke on offense or defense
3. Shaq gets post position on fundy and its a foul or a score, a small PF is no way going to defend the biggest player in two decades.
4. Sets up free throws for the perimiter players every time down the court cos the kings are in penalty early in the quarter
5. Watch the offensive fouls called on the kings post players, that is part of the scheme, vlade, webb and scott called for moving screens, which by the way they were not calling all series long

On the other hand in game 6, when Webber was guarding Shaq, he had 5 fouls as well, think how many times he could have fouled out, he did foul him a few times, they didnt call that. That will be blatant.

Lets rewind to Game 5 -
Same thing on the other side, you call couple of offensive fouls on shaq, take him out of the game and what do the lakers have in the middle apart from shaq, mark madsen, vlade will eat him for breakfast lunch and some more
What it does to the lakers, it takes them out of their offense without shaq playing major minutes, no one to dump into to create double teams and open shots, kobe has to work over christie more (DC fouled out ) and thats not the style the lakers want to play, they want to control the tempo against the kings inside and not play perimeter game where the kings were better.

It may not be as much blatant as game 6 cos shaq does clear out the defender with his elbow, ask mutombo, rik smits , sabonis and D Rob and they have all seen that before vlade and scott. The problem is that they did not call that all year long, not before game 5 and not in the spurs series or the portland series, they called sporadically through out the season. it is either a foul or it is not, when interpretted differently, easy set up for either team.

Add that to the end of game blatant call, how can that ref miss the ball going off of Webber, why didnt they call the moving screen on webber when he levelled fisher (they called it in game 6).

interestingly at the end of all this, game 7 got the best ratings in a decade in all sports.

 

[vladetomiller]

When I say lane violation, I'm not talking about players crowding the lane. Even though it happens often in the NBA, who cares about that. The Kings did it as well as the Lakers.


And if the refs allow my PG to take three steps to the basket and breathing fouls on my PF. I'd be pretty chill about this ref thing like the Spur fans too.

Bingo

Isnt that a rule, lane violation. You see them calling it now and then, why isnt that a consistent rule application, makes you wonder whats behind this. Lets not buy into the refs suck crap, stern claims to review every game, if they did not call lane violations for the whole entire season how come the reviews dont recognize that problem. Either the review process is a total failure and waste of money or the review process is designed to not pay attention to that.

Good point about the spurs fans - See why lakers fans are so cool about game 5, or even to an extent the pistons series. They have those 3 rings, they were able to celebrate for those years when their team won, it is harder for you to root for your team and see that taken away based on a few bad calls that decided the fate of that series. I see the suns fans in the same boat now, havent won a ring, had a good chance last year but were robbed and for them still worse a ref who decided one of the important games was found cheating. That ref called a few blatant bad calls, there are replays on youtube on the bad calls that he made, how the spurs shot free throws when they shouldnt have, how nash was man handled and didnt get a whistle.

It is easy to say that the suns fans are cry babies and the spurs fans are cool, but I understand what it takes. When your PF is treated differently than others, when your PG is allowed to become that much more effective with a few extra steps now and then, maybe a palming violation here and there to get that extra step on the defender, maybe letting your so called best defender man handle players and not get called for fouls while there is a hand check rule in place. It all goes well with them.

Same for lakers fans, when your center is allowed back away the defender, have a pet move of catch the ball and turn to the basket with the elbow up which makes it absolutely impossible for the defender to do anything other than get a bloodied nose or give up the dunk, when your SF was allowed to grab, tuck and pull the other teams SF who was an all star and mvp candidate later all game long, when your SG already as talented as he is gets calls at appropriate times, ofcourse they can not worry too much about it

Its all cool

 

[Superman]

No I cant see why you confuse the two, maybe because you think I have an interior motive, where as I do not. I think the refs messed up that series so much, game 5 was kings to take and game 6 was lakers to take, thats my stance on that series. I am not going to change my stance on game 5 and I find it interesting that you ignore game 5.

I am not ignoring Game 5. I am saying that it wasn't nearly as bad as Game 6. You are saying that the refs gave the Kings Game 5, and I disagree with that. You are also saying - correct me if I'm wrong, that Game 6 made up for Game 5. I obviously disagree with that.

All the sportswriters are over game 6 because that set up the series for the lakers, if the kings had won that series in 6 I am sure many of the lakers fans will be complaining all over the place about game 5 and it will be a sensational topic. Random sports writers have taken it up as a job and I dont think they have any much more insight than what you and me have, they are just better at writing and editing I guess. Read some of the blabber from these random guys and you can figure out they have no clue. They know that the casual fan will fall for the 27 foul or 27 FT claim and might become sensational actually.

That's largely irrelevant. Game 5 was not as bad as Game 6, and living in SoCal, I could ask ten different Laker fans separately, and they would all say the same thing. So, whether sports writers sensationalize what happened or not (which most of them do not; Game 6 was a joke, and everyone knows it), the Lakers still made twice as many points from the line as they did from the field, the Kings doubled the Lakers up in field goals, and it stood out like a sore thumb from the rest of the game, not to mention the series. Those are the facts. If you think the facts are sensational, then that's a horse of a different color. I mean, the Lakers had a distinct advantage over the Kings in the 4th quarter, based on how many time they got sent to the free throw line. 27 in a quarter, when they had not shot 27 in an entire game to that point, that is pretty sensational, if you ask me. But that is what happened.

I am trying to be objective here (I have said that the lakers got the win in game 6 with help from the refs ) and if you go and look at the replay, let me know which foul calls you dont like in that quarter. The thing that set them up was not bad calls through out the quarter, it was the first two minutes that set it up and the rest of the quarter was even imo.

I do not agree, but it does not matter. The Kings got cheated in the 4th quarter of Game 6. It does not matter how.

...

It may not be as much blatant as game 6 cos shaq does clear out the defender with his elbow, ask mutombo, rik smits , sabonis and D Rob and they have all seen that before vlade and scott. The problem is that they did not call that all year long, not before game 5 and not in the spurs series or the portland series, they called sporadically through out the season. it is either a foul or it is not, when interpretted differently, easy set up for either team.

Of course it wasn't as blatant as Game 6. In fact, you say it yourself in the paragraph above, the calls weren't even bad. If it was an offensive foul, then what is the problem with calling it?

If it happens to be inconsistent with the way the refs normally call it, then that is different. And I will agree with that. But there is a huge difference between deciding to make calls that other crews have been ignoring and making calls that don't exist. Especially when those calls are so egregious that random sports writers still remember the infamous screw job five years later.

Add that to the end of game blatant call, how can that ref miss the ball going off of Webber, why didnt they call the moving screen on webber when he levelled fisher (they called it in game 6).

Because that out of bounds call is a tough call to make. He did not see the ball go off of Webber, to him it looked like it went off of a Laker. I think you will see that kind of call happen once a game. It's not like there was no Laker within a mile of the play. It was on the far side of the court, with players scrambling to make a play. That happens. The only thing that makes that play stand out is that it was at the end of the game. For every questionable call that went the Kings way, there's another call that went the Lakers way, and that is without even considering the 4th quarter of Game 6.

And re: the so-called moving screen, I never thought it was a moving screen. Find some video of the play and I'll look at it, five years removed. But I remember disagreeing at the time with the thought that it was a moving screen.

interestingly at the end of all this, game 7 got the best ratings in a decade in all sports.

It was a great series, and Game 7 was a great game, from an uninvolved viewers standpoint. But Game 6 is a huge black mark on the series, and, again, that's obvious when Joe Blow from CocoMo includes it in his "Greatest Beatdowns" column, five years later.

 

[VF21]

It was a great series, and Game 7 was a great game, from an uninvolved viewers standpoint. But Game 6 is a huge black mark on the series, and, again, that's obvious when Joe Blow from CocoMo includes it in his "Greatest Beatdowns" column, five years later.

And Superman wins the thread... and this nifty trophy.

 

[vladetomiller]

And re: the so-called moving screen, I never thought it was a moving screen. Find some video of the play and I'll look at it, five years removed. But I remember disagreeing at the time with the thought that it was a moving screen.

.

There are a few on this forum itself, where they were talking about how sweet that bibby jumper looked, you can probably look it up.

But thats the problem about that moving screen and the way they call it. As much as shaqs elbow and clear out is an offensive foul, the moving screen is an offensive foul and they never called it, except " when that new crew showed up to call it". Game 6 they called offensive fouls on moving screens, half of the fouls on the kings centers were offensive fouls on moving screens including webber.

They didnt call it the whole season, that is what runs the kings offense, screen screen and screen for Peja, high post low post play for webber and vlade, high post screen with the PG for a screen and roll. When you take away that screen and the timing your offense will suffer, because it happened in game 6 you remember it.

Same thing for the lakers in game 5, you take away your dominant players game away, you suffer. Inspite of that the lakers were about to win, they were robbed with a bad out of bounds call, then a moving screen and then a possible foul on last second shot by Kobe. I dont remember very well if that was game 5 or not, most likely yes. Kobe taking the last shot and bobby taking his trouser off from underneath, no foul call.

Ofcourse you will say that there were compensating calls, yet you will single out game 6. At the end when you look at it, the kings shot more free throws for the series, got more foul calls and obviously made lesser field goals than the lakers. Can the non kings fans say that stern helped the kings to a 7 game series.

 

[Superman]

There are a few on this forum itself, where they were talking about how sweet that bibby jumper looked, you can probably look it up.

But thats the problem about that moving screen and the way they call it. As much as shaqs elbow and clear out is an offensive foul, the moving screen is an offensive foul and they never called it, except " when that new crew showed up to call it". Game 6 they called offensive fouls on moving screens, half of the fouls on the kings centers were offensive fouls on moving screens including webber.

They didnt call it the whole season, that is what runs the kings offense, screen screen and screen for Peja, high post low post play for webber and vlade, high post screen with the PG for a screen and roll. When you take away that screen and the timing your offense will suffer, because it happened in game 6 you remember it.

Like I said, I disagree about the moving screen calls, including the one in Game 5. I don't think that was a moving screen, and I never did. If you can find video of it, I will look at it, but I think it was a legal screen.

And, in Game 6, the Kings offense played well enough to win the game. They scored 102 points despite only shooting 41% from the field, the had 23 assists, they rebounded well offensively and defensively. The only thing they did not do is overcome a 27 free throw 4th quarter. And that is with all the "questionable" offensive foul calls that went the Lakers way.

Same thing for the lakers in game 5, you take away your dominant players game away, you suffer. Inspite of that the lakers were about to win, they were robbed with a bad out of bounds call, then a moving screen and then a possible foul on last second shot by Kobe. I dont remember very well if that was game 5 or not, most likely yes. Kobe taking the last shot and bobby taking his trouser off from underneath, no foul call.

We disagree about the severity of the out of bounds call. That happens regularly, and will not be fixed until the NBA institutes some sort of replay procedure for correcting missed out of bounds calls. That was not an egregious error. In fact, you have to have the perfect angle on a slow-motion replay to see that the ball went off Webber.

We disagree about the screen. I do not think it was illegal. Borderline, at best, but that is still a subjective judgment call that a ref has to make in a late-game playoff situation. He held his whistle. I think he should have.

The no-call on Kobe's last second shot could have definitely been called a foul. I guess the refs made up for that when Bibby's nose dripped blood on Kobe's elbow in Game 6. Yet and still, you name three borderline/bad calls late in Game 5, and I show you such a huge disparity at the free throw line in the deciding quarter of the next game that it is still remembered in infamy five years later, and you brush it off as Kings fans sensationalizing.

Something is amiss.

Ofcourse you will say that there were compensating calls, yet you will single out game 6. At the end when you look at it, the kings shot more free throws for the series, got more foul calls and obviously made lesser field goals than the lakers. Can the non kings fans say that stern helped the kings to a 7 game series.

Why shouldn't I single out Game 6? The Kings got cheated, didn't they?

And, as for your claim that the Kings shot more free throws in the series (Kings 204, Lakes 185), the Lakers style of offense precluded them from shooting a lot of free throws as a team. Shaq and Kobe got their's, but no one else really shot any free throws on that team. So even if Shaq and Kobe combined for 25 a game, they still would have come out behind. Whereas, the Kings style of offense included a lot of cuts to the basket, back-door passes, etc. A much more aggressive offense overall, which lends itself to a more balanced attack and more free throws. Even still, they didn't blow the Lakers out from the line. They averaged less than three more per game.

More foul calls? No. Kings, 173 fouls against, Lakers 179. No disparity there, unless you want to strike Game 6 from the record, and then you will see how glaring a debacle the game really was. Also, a lot of the Lakers fouls in Games 2 and 3, which where the games with the biggest foul advantages to the Kings, came late in the game when they were fouling to stop the clock. So the Kings didn't enjoy a benefit in foul calls in the series at all.

Fewer field goals? Kings 266, Lakers 260.

Can non-Kings fans say Stern helped the Kings to a seven game series? Well, none of them do; they all point to how the refs took Game 6 from the Kings. And that's the point.

 

[Superman]

And Superman wins the thread... and this nifty trophy.

I gladly accept.