Does Warriors, Phoenix, Change Thinking...

[Kingster]

...on the draft? To me, it confirms that a lot of these slower big men become almost useless in the Phoenix/Warriors type game. Quickness, speed, athleticism. That's where the game is going. I loved what the Warrior did to Dallas. Their defense was fantastic, with every man having the quickness to help every other man. I hope we can develop that with the Kings. Do you still want Hibbert?

 

[LPKingsFan]

...on the draft? To me, it confirms that a lot of these slower big men become almost useless in the Phoenix/Warriors type game. Quickness, speed, athleticism. That's where the game is going. I loved what the Warrior did to Dallas. Their defense was fantastic, with every man having the quickness to help every other man. I hope we can develop that with the Kings. Do you still want Hibbert?

If the final is still San Antonio/Detroit, then no. We'll see who comes out on top in the conference finals.

 

[supamari0]

They're not useless at all. If anything, they're the antidote to teams like the Warriors (especially the Warriors)

Dallas keeps losing because they don't have any low-post presence to punish the Warriors for having an undersized lineup. Also, a big man eats up the rebounds and should create huge rebounding disparities.

 

[Troy]

Wow, those of us who were against Don Nelson being our coach are probably eating our words now! They are sure frustrating Dallas and Nelson is having his revenge on Dallas right now, his old team that fought us so hard years ago when we were competive as well.

I don't know if a team like the Suns or Warriors can go all the way and win it with their high octane offense, but unless the other team slows them down, they will run right over them defense or not. At any rate, this is fun basketball to watch, I remember when we used to be able to put the points up quickly almost like that, we still weren't as athletic, but we had a deep team, bench included and put up a lot of points. I for 1 like the fast game and favor fast small ball, to a huge laboring giant slow center.

Hopefully we can draft a good athletic big PF and combine him with a athletic eager Center/PF we have in Williams and have a fun team once again. If no big man is left that is good at our spot, then I say we get the best PG there and get our big through trades and/or snagging any undrafted bigs like we did with Justin Williams last year. Without a 2nd round pick, hopefully we can do good by giving a hungry big who was spited in the draft another chance to prove himself. At the very least we can get a complementay role player and matched with Williams can be like hungry sharks looking for blood, match this with SAR and Miller off the bench to add some vet NBA experience and couple this with a young quick pass 1st PG and we could really have something here.

I'd rather Bibby be traded then Artest and get a quick defense ball distributing PG. Right now we have a heap of uncomplimentary parts from different regimes and not a cohesive athletic team like you see with the Suns and Warriors.

 

[Smills91]

I guarantee Dallas wins this series.

 

[CaminoChaos]

...on the draft? To me, it confirms that a lot of these slower big men become almost useless in the Phoenix/Warriors type game. Quickness, speed, athleticism. That's where the game is going. I loved what the Warrior did to Dallas. Their defense was fantastic, with every man having the quickness to help every other man. I hope we can develop that with the Kings. Do you still want Hibbert?

I brought up the same thing in another thread. I think that Hibbert is just going to be a big center that fills up space and not much else. Alot of people are still living the days where you need a big center to guard Shaq. I do agree we need a shotblocking presents but he must be quick enough to guard smaller power forwards.

 

[Ryle]

I don't know people.

Diop was having a pretty good game last night and made up for Dirk's lack of defense quite a bit....he got his fifth foul in the fourth and went to the bench and the Warriors attacked the rim at will and that's how they came back. 13 boards and 4 blocks isn't too shabby.

 

[VF21]

I guarantee Dallas wins this series.

I'm bookmarking this post...

 

[Kingster]

They're not useless at all. If anything, they're the antidote to teams like the Warriors (especially the Warriors)

Dallas keeps losing because they don't have any low-post presence to punish the Warriors for having an undersized lineup. Also, a big man eats up the rebounds and should create huge rebounding disparities.

The center who can punish smaller defensive players on offense is the antitode to the Warriors, not a Diop. Of course, Shaq in his younger days, was the epitome of that player. But if you have a guy who can't kill these smaller guys on the offensive end, if he's not worth-less, he's at least not worth nearly as much as when he's in a slow down game where the defense can set up.

Regarding the rebounding issue, I think the connection to big and rebounding is way overstated. When you have a running team shooting 3s, quickness to the ball becomes more important, bigness becomes less important. Also, Rodman wasn't big. Silas wasn't big. They were great rebounders.

 

[Kingster]

I guarantee Dallas wins this series.

Are you related to Barkley? So, you think the regular season and the playoffs was a fluke? What makes you so confident Dallas wins the series?

 

[Kingster]

Wow, those of us who were against Don Nelson being our coach are probably eating our words now! They are sure frustrating Dallas and Nelson is having his revenge on Dallas right now, his old team that fought us so hard years ago when we were competive as well.

I don't know if a team like the Suns or Warriors can go all the way and win it with their high octane offense, but unless the other team slows them down, they will run right over them defense or not. At any rate, this is fun basketball to watch, I remember when we used to be able to put the points up quickly almost like that, we still weren't as athletic, but we had a deep team, bench included and put up a lot of points. I for 1 like the fast game and favor fast small ball, to a huge laboring giant slow center.

I don't know if Phoenix or the Warriors can go all the way either. But I'm with you - it's an EXCITING brand of basketball. I HOPE one of them goes all the way because I'd be hoping there would be more copycats, meaning more exciting basketball in the NBA. Personally, I'd like Denver to take SA out, just to keep them out of the running.

 

[VF21]

The Kings with Vlade, Webb, Peja, Doug and Mike were able to play an interesting hybrid of basketball that was exciting, even with the slowness of Vlade factored in.

IF Petrie could find a way to put together a team similar to that, I think it could still be very competitive.

I would like to see Denver knock SA out, too, but only because of my stance against any team in any sport from Texas.

 

[Kingster]

If the final is still San Antonio/Detroit, then no. We'll see who comes out on top in the conference finals.

I think SA does have a pretty good match up with Phoenix or the Warriors because they have a big guy (Duncan) who can punish them on offense. But their other center/power forwards who are defenders/rebounders would be useless against Phoenix/Dallas, so ...? Duncan would have to just destroy them on O to make them play the San Antonio game. SA has Parker and Ginnobli who can match up with quickness and speed, but nobody else.

 

[Bricklayer]

...on the draft? To me, it confirms that a lot of these slower big men become almost useless in the Phoenix/Warriors type game. Quickness, speed, athleticism. That's where the game is going. I loved what the Warrior did to Dallas. Their defense was fantastic, with every man having the quickness to help every other man. I hope we can develop that with the Kings. Do you still want Hibbert?

Oh here we go again -- every single season it seems we have to deal with the same smallball tripe.

No. The Warriors are going absolutely nowhere, although they have a legit chance to pull off the fun little upset here -- just mentally have the Mavs in a stranglehold. But there is no title there, there has NEVER been any title there, for Don Nelson. He can smallball until the cows come home and he will never be more than the guy who makes for a fun first round series.

Phoenix is the lone anachronism, but we have yet to see whether that junked up sort of game can actually bring them a title, or just some very pretty runs up through the conference title games. And if they do make a run, its precisely because they have one of the best young PFs in the game back inside this season to anchor one of the most talented rosters in the game.

The reason of course we have to deal with this every single year is not only the fad phenomena, but because people so badly WANT to see it happen. Its a fun, dumb fantasy, and gives so many teams who have no real hope the illusion that they can just junk up the game too and have it matter. And ooh we get to see all that scoring, and isn't that fun? And ooh, we get to sit home and watch other teams in the Finals on TV every year. Isn't that fun?

 

[Kingster]

The Kings with Vlade, Webb, Peja, Doug and Mike were able to play an interesting hybrid of basketball that was exciting, even with the slowness of Vlade factored in.

IF Petrie could find a way to put together a team similar to that, I think it could still be very competitive.

I would like to see Denver knock SA out, too, but only because of my stance against any team in any sport from Texas.

I think the Kings of old would get beat by Phoenix or the Warriors. The officials are not allowing the guards to man-handled like they used to. That just augments the games of guards with quickness. Bibby would still get creamed, just like he is now. But Vlade would be tough for them to handle if he played under the basket. Weber didn't like to play under the basket, which would be just fine with Phoenix or the Warrior's type of team. I'm hoping Petrie doesn't get nostalgic about his old Kings and decides to go for an up-tempo athletic team - Kevin Martin athleticism at all 5 positions. I hope the guy we eventually have at the point is a blur, similar to the North Carolina point guard. I'd love to see a guy like that team up with Martin.

 

[Kingster]

Oh here we go again -- every single season it seems we have to deal with the same smallball tripe.

No. The Warriors are going absolutely nowhere, although they have a legit chance to pull off the fun little upset here -- just mentally have the Mavs in a stranglehold. But there is no title there, there has NEVER been any title there, for Don Nelson. He can smallball until the cows come home and he will never be more than the guy who makes for a fun first round series.

Phoenix is the lone anachronism, but we have yet to see whether that junked up sort of game can actually bring them a title, or just some very pretty runs up through the conference title games. And if they do make a run, its precisely because they have one of the best young PFs in the game back inside this season to anchor one of the most talented rosters in the game.

The reason of course we have to deal with this every single year is not only the fad phenomena, but because people so badly WANT to see it happen. Its a fun, dumb fantasy, and gives so many teams who have no real hope the illusion that they can just junk up the game too and have it matter. And ooh we get to see all that scoring, and isn't that fun? And ooh, we get to sit home and watch other teams in the Finals on TV every year. Isn't that fun?

You crack me up. "Fun little upset"? An 8 beating a 1?

I'll admit I WANT IT TO HAPPEN. But getting up on Dallas 3-1 is not an anachronism. It has nothing to do with the fact that Dallas is "mentally" challenged. It has to do with superior quickness, speed, and athleticism. Also, I'm not saying you can win with a team of 6-8 guys. Beidrins is very important to the Warriors. But he's not just a tall guy - he's fast and quick. He can really move. What I'm saying is that if you weight the qualities of bigness, height, quickness, speed, athleticsm, that in today's game bigness and height are not nearly as important as they used to be. Dampier is worthless in this uptempo game; not in the slow down game though. Diop matches up great against the slow-down SA and Duncan. Doesn't do nearly as well against the Warriors though. Need I bring up Brad Miller? My goodness, he's the epitome of the worst type of player in this up-tempo game: big, slow, and no post-up game. You couldn't dream up a worse player to play against a team like the Warriors or Phoenix.

 

[CaminoChaos]

You crack me up. "Fun little upset"? An 8 beating a 1?

I'll admit I WANT IT TO HAPPEN. But getting up on Dallas 3-1 is not an anachronism. It has nothing to do with the fact that Dallas is "mentally" challenged. It has to do with superior quickness, speed, and athleticism. Also, I'm not saying you can win with a team of 6-8 guys. Beidrins is very important to the Warriors. But he's not just a tall guy - he's fast and quick. He can really move. What I'm saying is that if you weight the qualities of bigness, height, quickness, speed, athleticsm, that in today's game bigness and height are not nearly as important as they used to be. Dampier is worthless in this uptempo game; not in the slow down game though. Diop matches up great against the slow-down SA and Duncan. Doesn't do nearly as well against the Warriors though. Need I bring up Brad Miller? My goodness, he's the epitome of the worst type of player in this up-tempo game: big, slow, and no post-up game. You couldn't dream up a worse player to play against a team like the Warriors or Phoenix.

Roy Hibbert...Ahhhh, wrong thread.

 

[Smills91]

I'm bookmarking this post...

Feel free. Dallas wins and then what, I can call you out for bookmarking it???

 

[Kingster]

Feel free. Dallas wins and then what, I can call you out for bookmarking it???

I admire your prediction. At least you let it hang out there. Even though I'm gung-ho Warriors I don't feel as confident about them winning it all as you do them losing, though. Toward the end of last night's game there was a moment when the Warrior were playing at the Maverick's pace. I've seen that happen before with running teams who start to "be careful" and slow it down rather than play their game. I think Nellie and Davis got 'em back on track though.

 

[Troy]

The Kings with Vlade, Webb, Peja, Doug and Mike were able to play an interesting hybrid of basketball that was exciting, even with the slowness of Vlade factored in.

IF Petrie could find a way to put together a team similar to that, I think it could still be very competitive.

I would like to see Denver knock SA out, too, but only because of my stance against any team in any sport from Texas.

Yeah, those pseky Texas teams. Dallas is sure getting the smack down by Nelson and he's sure getting the revenge he was coveting. It doesn't get much better then a team that makes it into the playoffs by the skin of their teeth and then abusing a team that has one of the best regular season records of all time go down in the 1st round like wounded animal. Why oh why didn't we hire Nelson to be our coach last year, the guy was begging to be the coach and the Maloofs have worked with Nelson on something, isn't he on the payroll for something? Or did I dream this up?

The Bulls sure layed a beating on the Heat as well sweeping them in 4 games. This sure is turning out to be a interesting 1st round. It looks like the Lakers will be sent home for the summer next game as well. Now if only we were able to loss the Clipper game at the end of the season and get the 6th pick and get Odem or Durant...the universe would be fully aligned!!!

 

[Troy]

I admire your prediction. At least you let it hang out there. Even though I'm gung-ho Warriors I don't feel as confident about them winning it all as you do them losing, though. Toward the end of last night's game there was a moment when the Warrior were playing at the Maverick's pace. I've seen that happen before with running teams who start to "be careful" and slow it down rather than play their game. I think Nellie and Davis got 'em back on track though.

The Warriors have a high octaned offense with Davis and Richardson. Jackson is sure reviving his career in GS too and that trade then shed Murphy and the (Clips coaches son, what's his name again ), sure has turned GS into a scappy team, let's not forget about Matt Barnes too. I hate to admit it, but I really like this team, I know they are in our division and just up the road, but they are really fun to watch. The Clips I lost some respect for when they wouldn't win when we let them late in the season and they not only hurt themselves, but us a lot as well since we are picking #10 now instead of around #6.

 

[Arkitect]

This argument is silly. Golden State barely beat Dallas last night. It is not like they are absolutely dominating them. Just looking at the body language of the whole Dallas team they did not look like they thought they could win the game. If Dallas wins last night, the series is tied 2 - 2 and we aren't having this discussion. No one on the Dallas team wanted to shoot the ball. The only reason they are losing this series is mental. Golden State is fun to watch. But they aren't going to win a championship with the team they have now.

 

[Superman]

...on the draft? To me, it confirms that a lot of these slower big men become almost useless in the Phoenix/Warriors type game. Quickness, speed, athleticism. That's where the game is going. I loved what the Warrior did to Dallas. Their defense was fantastic, with every man having the quickness to help every other man. I hope we can develop that with the Kings.

No, I don't think it should change our thinking.

Small ball can be fun to watch at times, but historically has failed in the playoffs. Phoenix hasn't won anything with their style (arguably the most entertaining in the NBA), and Golden State hasn't even put the Mavs away yet.

The only way you can win without a post up threat and/or a very capable defense is luck. The past 25+ years haven't seen a champion without a player who could create mismatches in the post or a defense that could take games over. Even the Mavs have given more attention to defense since Avery Johnson took over, and are a better team because of it. Phoenix has a shot at the Finals this year, but they had a shot the last two years as well. Their team is better now than it has been the past two seasons (time together, Amare healthy, etc.), but they still have the same weaknesses that teams like San Antonio and Detroit have been and should still be able to exploit.

If you just want to see us run up and down the floor and score a lot of points, then putting a team together that can play a small-ball/high octane defense is fine. But if you want to give your team a legitimate shot at a championship, then you need a player who can consistently create offense down low - and hit free throws in the clutch, you need a defense that won't get brutalized because of the lack of a shot blocker, and your team needs to be at least solid overall rebounding the basketball.

 

[nbrans]

...on the draft? To me, it confirms that a lot of these slower big men become almost useless in the Phoenix/Warriors type game. Quickness, speed, athleticism. That's where the game is going. I loved what the Warrior did to Dallas. Their defense was fantastic, with every man having the quickness to help every other man. I hope we can develop that with the Kings. Do you still want Hibbert?

This has reaffirmed my theory about athleticism. The league is getting more and more athletic, and you ignore that trend at your peril. Putting five athletic freaks on the floor, as Golden State has done with all of their different combinations, makes things happen. I'm not interested at all in drafting anyone other than guys who are really really athletic for their position.

But. You still need bigs, and I think the absolute wrong lesson to learn is that a) Golden State is winning BECAUSE of smallball or b) Don Nelson is a genius. Neither is true. They're winning because of their athleticism -- they're blowing Golden State off the floor. But if the Mavericks had guys who actually represented a presence in the post, the gimmick would be exposed and the series would be going much differently.

As for Phoenix, they're winning because Nash and Amare are playing out of their minds. But again, it's all about their athleticism and you can't even really call it smallball because Amare is holding down the middle and is an actual big.

So -- I think with the way the league is going the Kings should sacrifice some of the value they've traditionally put on skills for athleticism, but not at the expense of having good bigs -- I'd just hope they're athletic bigs, because I badly want to see what the Kings could do with five athletic players on the floor.

 

[BMiller52]

I think the Kings of old would get beat by Phoenix or the Warriors. The officials are not allowing the guards to man-handled like they used to. That just augments the games of guards with quickness. Bibby would still get creamed, just like he is now. But Vlade would be tough for them to handle if he played under the basket. Weber didn't like to play under the basket, which would be just fine with Phoenix or the Warrior's type of team. I'm hoping Petrie doesn't get nostalgic about his old Kings and decides to go for an up-tempo athletic team - Kevin Martin athleticism at all 5 positions. I hope the guy we eventually have at the point is a blur, similar to the North Carolina point guard. I'd love to see a guy like that team up with Martin.

This is the funniest thing I've read all day. Dude, don't kid yourself. The Kings of 2002 and 2003 would SMASH the Warriors. We had guys who could play in the post(Vlade/Webber). We had an athletic shotblocker(Keon Clark). We had a defensive stopper in Doug and one of the best 6th men in the game(Bobby). We could play up tempo or we could slow it down. Webber could score on people in the post and he did, just because he had a nice elbow J everyone says he couldn't score in the post. That's wrong.

 

[VF21]

Feel free. Dallas wins and then what, I can call you out for bookmarking it???

Whatever you wish. You put the prediction out there; I'm saying I'll revisit it. I'm beginning to believe you just try and cover ALL the bases so you can claim to be right. Evidence the plethora of trade deals.

 

[VF21]

This argument is silly. Golden State barely beat Dallas last night. It is not like they are absolutely dominating them. Just looking at the body language of the whole Dallas team they did not look like they thought they could win the game. If Dallas wins last night, the series is tied 2 - 2 and we aren't having this discussion. No one on the Dallas team wanted to shoot the ball. The only reason they are losing this series is mental. Golden State is fun to watch. But they aren't going to win a championship with the team they have now.

Excellent points, IMHO. And it won't be the first time the Mavs have folded under pressure.

 

[Troy]

Oh here we go again -- every single season it seems we have to deal with the same smallball tripe.

No. The Warriors are going absolutely nowhere, although they have a legit chance to pull off the fun little upset here -- just mentally have the Mavs in a stranglehold. But there is no title there, there has NEVER been any title there, for Don Nelson. He can smallball until the cows come home and he will never be more than the guy who makes for a fun first round series.

Phoenix is the lone anachronism, but we have yet to see whether that junked up sort of game can actually bring them a title, or just some very pretty runs up through the conference title games. And if they do make a run, its precisely because they have one of the best young PFs in the game back inside this season to anchor one of the most talented rosters in the game.

The reason of course we have to deal with this every single year is not only the fad phenomena, but because people so badly WANT to see it happen. Its a fun, dumb fantasy, and gives so many teams who have no real hope the illusion that they can just junk up the game too and have it matter. And ooh we get to see all that scoring, and isn't that fun? And ooh, we get to sit home and watch other teams in the Finals on TV every year. Isn't that fun?

What do you hang your hat on as far as team focus? The Mavs who everyone thought were in a class by themselves, look at their season record are quickly being embarrased by a scrappy fast/small team that barely made it into the playoffs and hasn't been there in some time. What can you honestly say is the way to build your team besides saying to have variety and being deep ala a Texas teams like the Mavs and Spurs with lots of tools in their arsenals.

God help us who have no cohesiveness and focus, coach, crappy contracts, etc. I really think the Suns will win it all, besides having an incredibally fast and atheletic team, they have 3 or more All-Stars in Nash, Stod., Marion, also 6th man of the year in the speedster Barbosa. A good lock down wing man in Bell, and a good big man who isn't that big at 6'8" in Diaw. The only team that can beat the Suns is the Suns themselves, if they play their game I don't see anyone beating them, you need to slow them down and make them play your game or play outstanding lock down defense to have a chance. There are quite a few guys on the team that you don't know who the heck they are, but they are very deep 8-9 man rotation.

 

[Troy]

No, I don't think it should change our thinking.

Small ball can be fun to watch at times, but historically has failed in the playoffs. Phoenix hasn't won anything with their style (arguably the most entertaining in the NBA), and Golden State hasn't even put the Mavs away yet.

The only way you can win without a post up threat and/or a very capable defense is luck. The past 25+ years haven't seen a champion without a player who could create mismatches in the post or a defense that could take games over. Even the Mavs have given more attention to defense since Avery Johnson took over, and are a better team because of it. Phoenix has a shot at the Finals this year, but they had a shot the last two years as well. Their team is better now than it has been the past two seasons (time together, Amare healthy, etc.), but they still have the same weaknesses that teams like San Antonio and Detroit have been and should still be able to exploit.

If you just want to see us run up and down the floor and score a lot of points, then putting a team together that can play a small-ball/high octane defense is fine. But if you want to give your team a legitimate shot at a championship, then you need a player who can consistently create offense down low - and hit free throws in the clutch, you need a defense that won't get brutalized because of the lack of a shot blocker, and your team needs to be at least solid overall rebounding the basketball.

I think the Suns can win it all. Why wouldn't they be able to? Amare is a beast around the hoop and Bell is a great lock down wing defender. Barbosa with his quickness is also very hard to guard as well as can and will get in front of people, Marion too is quick and athletic etc. Playing good defense is not all about being athletic, but it sure does help, next is actually making a concerted effort to do it and have your team do it as well. Teams that win many times are very cohesive and I don't see too many teams as cohesive as the Suns. Look how many times Nash and throw a no look pass in the air and get the ball to his teammate for a wide open look, look at him getting 20 assist games, that doesn't happen by accident. Sure Nash is an amazing player, but his team sure helps him out as he does for them!!!
Bottom line, this team is a lot of fun to watch, not only for their athletism, but also their cohesiveness and the degree to which they work together as a well oiled machine, not a scrap heap like our team!!!

 

[Entity]

Dallas don't have a punishing scorer in the post so them playing big doesn't help. Dirk is a jump shooter. A guy like SAR could be going off on Golden state right now in fact SAR got 23 and 14 against them just a few weeks ago and he wasn't the #1 scorer. Somebody like SAR on Dallas right now would be owning GS.