Would you rather have Favors or Cousins?

[Chupacabra]

Have you seen Turner play? The guy is IMO the best player available in the draft. The draft is not the place to get big men if you want to win now. Big men take many years to develop. Unless there is the obvious Dwight Howard, but even he took 3 or 4 years to become a consistent big. Trading for a big is the best way to pick one up. Don't get me wrong though, I would absolutely love it if we drafted Cousins.

Oh reallllyyyy? Would you care to explain why most of the top bigmen in the league are still with the teams that drafted them? Almost ALL of the top bigmen that are still in their prime are still with the team that drafted them. The NBA is a guard heavy league. Its not that difficult to acquire a good guard. Its infinitely harder to acquire a GOOD bigman. I suppose i just wont be able to understand why while the Kings have one of the weakest frontcourts in the league in the midst of the deepest bigmen draft in recent history, everyone wants to draft a guard. I would rather have a great guard and a good bigman then two great guards. We dont even know if Turner will actually be GREAT.

 

[mac]

Oh reallllyyyy? Would you care to explain why most of the top bigmen in the league are still with the teams that drafted them? Almost ALL of the top bigmen that are still in their prime are still with the team that drafted them. The NBA is a guard heavy league. Its not that difficult to acquire a good guard. Its infinitely harder to acquire a GOOD bigman. I suppose i just wont be able to understand why while the Kings have one of the weakest frontcourts in the league in the midst of the deepest bigmen draft in recent history, everyone wants to draft a guard. I would rather have a great guard and a good bigman then two great guards. We dont even know if Turner will actually be GREAT.

Ok let's look at the playoff teams and the big men that they drafted.

Spurs - Duncan is past his prime

Lakers - It's Gasol who makes the difference, not Bynum.

Nuggets - Nene? Well he was still traded but ok let's consider him drafted by the nuggets. I don't consider Nene a top big.

Mavs - Dirk. Ok that's one guy.

Utah - Umm. Who did they draft. Lets see... Paul Milsap?

Suns - Amare Stoudemire. I personally don't think he'd be that good without Steve nash. But ok, that makes 2.

Blazers - Greg Oden hasn't done ****

Thunder - Would you consider Jeff Green a top bigman? I personally don't.

Cavs - JJ Hickson is not a top bigman.

Magic - Dwight Howard. Number 3.

Celtics - Kendrick Perkins?

Hawks - Al Horford, Josh Smith. Both are good, but not really top big men. Josh Smith maybe somewhere there ...

Bucks - Bogut. Only very very very recently became a top big man in the league. Number 4.

Heat - Udonis Haslem? Beasley is far from a top big at the moment.

Bobcats - No one.

Raptors - Bosh. Number 5.

So ... out of 16 current playoff teams, 5 drafted these "top bigmen" you speak of. Out of these 5, only 3 are contenders. Where are the rest of the top big men?

New Jersey Nets, Twolves, Memphis Grizzlies (assuming you take Marc Gasol as a top tier big)

I don't follow college ball so I personally don't have a stance as to whether we should draft Turner or Cousins or whoever. But I feel that at high, rather guaranteed picks, pick BPA. Especially if BPA supposedly fits well with our franchise player.

 

[Bricklayer]

Ok let's look at the playoff teams and the big men that they drafted.

Spurs - Duncan is past his prime

Lakers - It's Gasol who makes the difference, not Bynum.

Nuggets - Nene? Well he was still traded but ok let's consider him drafted by the nuggets. I don't consider Nene a top big.

Mavs - Dirk. Ok that's one guy.

Utah - Umm. Who did they draft. Lets see... Paul Milsap?

Suns - Amare Stoudemire. I personally don't think he'd be that good without Steve nash. But ok, that makes 2.

Blazers - Greg Oden hasn't done ****

Thunder - Would you consider Jeff Green a top bigman? I personally don't.

Cavs - JJ Hickson is not a top bigman.

Magic - Dwight Howard. Number 3.

Celtics - Kendrick Perkins?

Hawks - Al Horford, Josh Smith. Both are good, but not really top big men. Josh Smith maybe somewhere there ...

Bucks - Bogut. Only very very very recently became a top big man in the league. Number 4.

Heat - Udonis Haslem? Beasley is far from a top big at the moment.

Bobcats - No one.

Raptors - Bosh. Number 5.

So ... out of 16 current playoff teams, 5 drafted these "top bigmen" you speak of. Out of these 5, only 3 are contenders. Where are the rest of the top big men?

New Jersey Nets, Twolves, Memphis Grizzlies (assuming you take Marc Gasol as a top tier big)

I don't follow college ball so I personally don't have a stance as to whether we should draft Turner or Cousins or whoever. But I feel that at high, rather guaranteed picks, pick BPA. Especially if BPA supposedly fits well with our franchise player.

I don't think that was his point so much as this trusim -- its almost impossible to trade for top bigs in their prime. If somebody has them, they ain't giving them up. And everybody may not have one. But the ones that do, they're almost always home grown. We got spoiled around here with the Webber robbery, but that's a very rare event. Pau a few years back. KG does not count because he was old. Before that...trying to think back. Boozer came over as a free agent. Another rare event typified by his scummy money grubbing. You just don't get those guys on the market. There kind of is no market. People who have them won't give them up. So the point he would be making is we are going to be at the top of the draft for likely the last time in a long time, if we ever DO intend to get a top big, this is the time. Be very hard to do in future years throguh any other means, especially in Sacramento, which is not exactly a free agent haven.

 

[mac]

I don't think that was his point so much as this trusim -- its almost impossible to trade for top bigs in their prime. If somebody has them, they ain't giving them up. And everybody may not have one. But the ones that do, they're almost always home grown. We got spoiled around here with the Webber robbery, but that's a very rare event. Pau a few years back. KG does not count because he was old. Before that...trying to think back. Boozer came over as a free agent. Another rare event typified by his scummy money grubbing. You just don't get those guys on the market. There kind of is no market. People who have them won't give them up. So the point he would be making is we are going to be at the top of the draft for likely the last time in a long time, if we ever DO intend to get a top big, this is the time. Be very hard to do in future years throguh any other means, especially in Sacramento, which is not exactly a free agent haven.

Which relating back to the "debate" about drafting Turner over Cousins would then beg the question of whether a top tier big is necessary if we can have a superstar guard wouldn't it? On top of that as he himself said, Cousins may not be great - only good. Is is that hard to add a 'good' big man via trade or free agency?

 

[Gilles]

If HJ falls to #3 and Kings have #2 I think they would prefer to get that #2 to ensure Turner or somehow fallen (I refuse to believe it will happen) Wall. The key is to get into top-4. Then Kings is almost certain to get away with Cousins or Favors.
P.S. Wall and Turner are primarily and maybe entirely on-ball players. So is Tyreke. Not sure there's big enough chance they will work together. To be more clear Tyreke + Cousins or Favors will have bigger impact than Tyreke + Wall or Turner.

 

[iowamcnabb]

I can't wait for the official draft order. So many variables right now but I would take Cousins over Favors if it came down to it. He just looks so dominant...I wonder if the Wolves would take him if they had the second pick, keep Jefferson at PF and trade Love for a guard?

 

[mac]

I can't wait for the official draft order. So many variables right now but I would take Cousins over Favors if it came down to it. He just looks so dominant...I wonder if the Wolves would take him if they had the second pick, keep Jefferson at PF and trade Love for a pointguard?

fixed

 

[hammystyle]

I suppose i just wont be able to understand why while the Kings have one of the weakest frontcourts in the league in the midst of the deepest bigmen draft in recent history, everyone wants to draft a guard. I would rather have a great guard and a good bigman then two great guards. We dont even know if Turner will actually be GREAT.

So if given the choice you'd rather have Al Horford or Al Jefferson on the Kings instead of Brandon Roy or Dwyane Wade?

 

[piksi]

Unless we get a crazy chance on Wall - oru pick better be 6-10 and taller.

I am sick and tired of 6-7 tweeners who can suck equally on several positons. Either Wall or very tall.

 

[bajaden]

If HJ falls to #3 and Kings have #2 I think they would prefer to get that #2 to ensure Turner or somehow fallen (I refuse to believe it will happen) Wall. The key is to get into top-4. Then Kings is almost certain to get away with Cousins or Favors.
P.S. Wall and Turner are primarily and maybe entirely on-ball players. So is Tyreke. Not sure there's big enough chance they will work together. To be more clear Tyreke + Cousins or Favors will have bigger impact than Tyreke + Wall or Turner.

I'm not going to debate which player would be the better fit for the Kings. I'll take any of them and feel as happy as a clam. The thing I agree with is the importance of getting into the top four. We do that and we get an upper tier player, and maybe a star or superstar. But at worse, a player that can make an impact on the team.

After that we can sit around and bicker all day long about the best one to pick.

 

[bajaden]

Unless we get a crazy chance on Wall - oru pick better be 6-10 and taller.

I am sick and tired of 6-7 tweeners who can suck equally on several positons. Either Wall or very tall.

So if you had a shot at Brandon Roy, Michael Jordan, Dwayne Wade, LeBron James or Oscar Robertson, you'd still rather go for the 6'10" guy? Remember, Portland went for Oden over Durant, and that decision might cause Portland's GM to lose his job.

Actually I would have made the same decision at the time. I would have let the size and athleticism of one player overshadow the overall talent of another. Never again..

 

[Kingster]

Unless we get a crazy chance on Wall - oru pick better be 6-10 and taller.

I am sick and tired of 6-7 tweeners who can suck equally on several positons. Either Wall or very tall.

Have you seen Turner? He could be better than Wall.

 

[piksi]

there is only one ball in the game

 

[Fear the Putin]

there is only one ball in the game

there ya go

Evan Turner may be good, but his game is all about dominating the ball.
We also have another player on this team who needs the ball to produce and his name is Tyreke.

 

[hammystyle]

there ya go

Evan Turner may be good, but his game is all about dominating the ball.
We also have another player on this team who needs the ball to produce and his name is Tyreke.

His game includes being able to handle the ball., but that's not what "its all about". He's a terrific defender, rebounder, passer and has a really good mid-range and post up game that didn't show as much because he HAD to handle the ball. I also think he's gonna be a good spot up 3 shooter once he plays with someone who can drive and kick to him.

Evan Turner doesn't just fit, he's THE BEST fit. He'll make Tyreke much better and likewise.

The words "ball dominant" are overused on this board. Yes, Tyreke pounds the dribble but he's 20 and to be as successful as he needs to be he needs to learn to move and share the ball better anyways. That's just a function of winning basketball. However the way some folks look at our draft contenders you'd think there was never two successful players on a team who could take their man off the dribble. Doesn't anyone remember Michael and Scottie?

 

[pshn80]

His game includes being able to handle the ball., but that's not what "its all about". He's a terrific defender, rebounder, passer and has a really good mid-range and post up game that didn't show as much because he HAD to handle the ball. I also think he's gonna be a good spot up 3 shooter once he plays with someone who can drive and kick to him.

Evan Turner doesn't just fit, he's THE BEST fit. He'll make Tyreke much better and likewise.

The words "ball dominant" are overused on this board. Yes, Tyreke punds the dribble but he's 20 and to be as successful as he needs to be he needs to learn to move and share the ball better anyways. That's just a function of winning basketball. However the way some folks look at our draft contenders you'd think there was never two successful players on a team who could take their man off the dribble. Doesn't anyone remember Michael and Scottie?

Your reasoning sounds good to me. On a team where we need a starting 2, 3, and 5 and could use a 4 - take the best one of those that are available. There's certainly more than one way to skin a cat. We have great needs, satisfy one of them well and move along and make the next opportunity work for us. Go GP.

 

[Kingster]

Oh reallllyyyy? Would you care to explain why most of the top bigmen in the league are still with the teams that drafted them? Almost ALL of the top bigmen that are still in their prime are still with the team that drafted them. The NBA is a guard heavy league. Its not that difficult to acquire a good guard. Its infinitely harder to acquire a GOOD bigman. I suppose i just wont be able to understand why while the Kings have one of the weakest frontcourts in the league in the midst of the deepest bigmen draft in recent history, everyone wants to draft a guard. I would rather have a great guard and a good bigman then two great guards. We dont even know if Turner will actually be GREAT.

We don't know much, but my bet is on Turner being great. That's great, not good. And I'd rather take a bet on a guard I think is going to be great over a big man who I don't think has that potential. If you think Turner is going to be just another "good" guard, then we'll agree to disagree on that one.

 

[Kingster]

there ya go

Evan Turner may be good, but his game is all about dominating the ball.
We also have another player on this team who needs the ball to produce and his name is Tyreke.

He's a fantastic rebounder for a guard. He doesn't "dominate" the ball to do that. He's also a fantastic defender. He doesn't "dominate" the ball to do that. He's a very good passer. He doesn't need to dominate the ball to do that. He's going to be a significant impact on the game even if you totally exclude his dribbling, so I just don't get this dominate the ball stuff.

 

[bajaden]

there is only one ball in the game

Hmmm, But there are two baskets. It appears there's inequitity.

 

[bajaden]

I think I've made my feelings known that I think Turner is the best player in college basketball. So there's no way I would pass him up for anyone else in the draft. I think we would all agree that in order to be a great basketball player, you do have to handle the ball at some point in time. Thats what basketball skills are. Dribbling, passing, shooting. Even rebounding requires that you touch the ball. Now if you want to draft someone that doesn't do all those things, well then good luck with that one.

Yes Turner handled the ball most of the time at Ohio St.. Thats because they didn't really have a point guard, and he had the skills of a point guard. But while he did handle the ball a lot, he doesn't need the ball to be effective. He's very good at moving without the ball. He is the perfect fit next to Evans. Like Evans he can get to the basket and is a good finisher. He's a better passer than Evans is right now, and probably a more creative passer. He has a deadly mid-range game, and like Evans, he has been known to just take over games when needed. He's a good defender and an outstanding rebounder. To be honest, he's another player that could come close to averaging 20/5/5. Not saying that he will, but that he has that kind of talent. Probably wouldn't do it on the same team with Evans though.

Unless the gods smile upon us and we strike gold in the lottery, this is just an exercise in futility. One can hope..

 

[Gary]

This was the first year Turner played PG.. He did well.. Much better than I had though, but I don't know if pairing Wall, and Evans in our back court would be a good thing at this point being that both are ball dominant. I do love Turner's game though. The guy is going to be a star.

 

[fnordius]

Favors or Cousins?

After mulling it over a while, now that 3 or 4 looks possible, I'd say Favors.

Part of this comes from thinking over how we took Gerald Wallace over Gilbert Arenas. Arenas may have become a slightly bigger star than Wallace, but would you really want Arenas dominating your locker room?

I like Favors' intangibles a lot more than I like Cousins', and (barring a #1 pick, anyway) hope we end up with him. I wish he were more of a C, but... we're talking about a Kings draft pick, right? We got perfection in the O-Train, I'm not expecting that again.

 

[ElRey]

Cousins is an intriguing prospect but he does bring up memories of Derrick Coleman: immensely talented, big and strong player with question of attitude/behavior problems. Possible weight issue.

Hopefully the Kings do their homework on him if they are interested in Cousins.

 

[rainmaker]

Since we already had a Favors vs. Cousins thread, I thought I would bring it back to life, since that is where the lastest conversation seems to be heading.

Right now, I still prefer Cousins over Favors, by a slim margin. However, when the measurements come out at the combine, I might change my mind if Favors has infact grown to 6'10" or 6'11". Then I will start thinking about him as our future center. IMO, if Favors has grown and becomes big enough to become a legit nba center, which I think is a definate possibilty, then I might prefer him over Cousins.

Cousins is definately more nba ready at this point. More developed post game. Much batter passer, which is important, because he will be attracting double teams pretty quickly into his career. He should be a monster on the boards form day one also. Favors is more of a risk at this point, because your picking him more on potential and upside. But his strong point already is defense, and blocking shots. If he infact has grown an inch or two, like some reports seem to suggest, than we might be looking at the closest thing to the next Dwight Howard we have seen. Or a more defensive minded, and better rebounding version of Amare. Favors upside is absolutely scary.

 

[bajaden]

Since we already had a Favors vs. Cousins thread, I thought I would bring it back to life, since that is where the lastest conversation seems to be heading.

Right now, I still prefer Cousins over Favors, by a slim margin. However, when the measurements come out at the combine, I might change my mind if Favors has infact grown to 6'10" or 6'11". Then I will start thinking about him as our future center. IMO, if Favors has grown and becomes big enough to become a legit nba center, which I think is a definate possibilty, then I might prefer him over Cousins.

Cousins is definately more nba ready at this point. More developed post game. Much batter passer, which is important, because he will be attracting double teams pretty quickly into his career. He should be a monster on the boards form day one also. Favors is more of a risk at this point, because your picking him more on potential and upside. But his strong point already is defense, and blocking shots. If he infact has grown an inch or two, like some reports seem to suggest, than we might be looking at the closest thing to the next Dwight Howard we have seen. Or a more defensive minded, and better rebounding version of Amare. Favors upside is absolutely scary.

Remember that although Favors may not be quite the rebounder that Cousins is, he's still a good rebounder. He pulled down 1 board every 3.2 minutes. Or 11.2 per 36. Cousins was just in a different world averaging 15 per 36 or 1 every 2.4 minutes. Also remember that Favors shared the post with Lawal who also is a good rebounder. And while Cousins did share the post to a certain extent with Patterson. Patterson played away from the basket far more than Lawal did.

 

[rainmaker]

Remember that although Favors may not be quite the rebounder that Cousins is, he's still a good rebounder. He pulled down 1 board every 3.2 minutes. Or 11.2 per 36. Cousins was just in a different world averaging 15 per 36 or 1 every 2.4 minutes. Also remember that Favors shared the post with Lawal who also is a good rebounder. And while Cousins did share the post to a certain extent with Patterson. Patterson played away from the basket far more than Lawal did.

I do think right now Cousins would be the safer pick, but I'm really starting to think Favors has more of an upside. He's more of a risk right now, but if he grows a couple of inches, that eliminates some of the risk IMO.

I don't think Favors is a poor rebounder, I think he's pretty good. Cousins however, is an absolute beast on the boards, and think he will be from day one. But if Favors is infact 6'10", and we'll know later this week, and you combine that with his freakishly long arms, he could also be a great rebounder at this level. But in terms of upside, if Favors continues to grow, he might end up being the better of the two on that end.

Here's a question for you. When comparing Favors and Cousins, which one do you think has the higher probability of reaching their full potential? And if both were to hypothetically reach their full potential, who's ceiling is higher? I can't decide right now.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Favors is a good rebounder, but still has some problems holding onto the ball. They should be easily correctable with NBA coaching.

 

[Sparky6string]

I'm still for Cousins, and I don't care if Favors measures to 7'. At least at this point I view Favors as a nice consolation prize if Cousins has already been taken. Like I've read before I almost hope for the #3 spot so we can take Cousins without issues. I think Cousins' off-court problems are not as big a thing as others do. He's no Coleman.

 

[Telemachus]

Here's a question for you. When comparing Favors and Cousins, which one do you think has the higher probability of reaching their full potential? And if both were to hypothetically reach their full potential, who's ceiling is higher? I can't decide right now.

I think it is hard to determine who is more likely to reach their potential. From what you read, it sounds like Favors is a hard worker while Cousins might be a bit lazy (overblown IMO). However, Cousins seems to be the more skilled of the two at this point which shows that he works on his game. I think that both players are likely to acheive much of their potential (call me optimistic).

As for who's ceiling is higher, I would lean toward Favors because he is more athletic. I don't see it as much higher right now, but if he measures close to the same as Cousins, then I see the gap getting a little bigger.

Right now, I see Cousins as a center and Favors as a PF. If Favors has grown to 6'10 or 6'11, then he would be able to play both positions IMO. That in itself would increase his ceiling.

 

[bajaden]

If HJ falls to #3 and Kings have #2 I think they would prefer to get that #2 to ensure Turner or somehow fallen (I refuse to believe it will happen) Wall. The key is to get into top-4. Then Kings is almost certain to get away with Cousins or Favors.
P.S. Wall and Turner are primarily and maybe entirely on-ball players. So is Tyreke. Not sure there's big enough chance they will work together. To be more clear Tyreke + Cousins or Favors will have bigger impact than Tyreke + Wall or Turner.

My heart tells me to argue with you. Basicly because I just love Turner's game and I think he's going to surprise a lot of people and be even better than most thought. But my gut tells me that your right. That either Cousins or Favors would have a bigger impact on the team. Sometimes its a matter of getting the right piece, which may not necessarily be the most expensive piece.

But man, I sure love Turner....