Look, I'll admit that I can't really comment on Motiejunas, having only seen him play about one half of one game. But I do happen to know that Dime Dropper probably comes the closest to an expert on the international players that we have on this fourm. So I'll gladly defer to his opinion. All he and I and others, that take the time out of their lives, in my case, I apparently have no life, are trying to do, is give people as much information as possible about the about the players the Kings may or may not draft. So take the information for what you think its worth. But don't disrespect the info, or the person that giving it.
With the 7th pick in the 2011 NBA Draft, the Sacramento Kings select .....
- Thread starter sterö
- Start date
I'm not disrespecting the person giving the info I'm just stating my opinion on what I feel about these Euro prospects. I admit I don't know many players from this draft class but I just don't see any potential in these so called lottery prospects that supposed to be in the top ten for whatever reason.
I'm saying it's a legitimate possibility. And I'm astounded that you're adamant they're not that good when you've admitted you haven't seen them play. Really, how does that work? It's counter-productive to write off a player based on stereotypes. You're looking for athleticism? What about Vesely? The guy is probably a better athlete than most US players in the draft, and he's about 6'10''. Shooting? What about Motiejunas, who is one of the most skilled big men in Europe at the age of 20? There's plenty of potential in the European guys.
I'm not saying we definitely should draft one of them. But dismissing them because they're European is just stupid when you consider that very good players are coming out of Europe on a consistent basis.
Yeah, I was joking about the Kahn part. I don't think he's actually on someone's payroll, but I'm still suspicious about his motives. He's going out of his way to make Kanter in particular look bad right now which isn't something he usually does in the month before a draft. It could be he's just trying to scoop his competitors and be the first one to accurately predict Kanter falling, but all the other evidence right now says Kanter is moving up and is being seriously considered at #2.
Givony has Kanter going to the Wizards at 6 right now, what is the big deal about this? Why are people comparing his own prospect rankings (which isn't a mock draft) to other sites' mock drafts? Is it really that hard to understand the difference?
All Givony has been doing is holding Kanter's lack of resume against him, which is a rational thing to do. What is he supposed to do? Ignore HS games but hold the Nike Hoop Summit game as the definitive proof of his abilities? Seriously?
As for the people who are questioning his motives, please tell me what his motives might be. What exactly does he influence in NBA front offices? These are the big leagues, these organizations pay a lot of money to their scouts to watch these players themselves and come back with an opinion of their own. Do you really think they're going to base their opinions on a player off of what Givony says? If they valued his opinion so much, then why wouldn't they just hire him as a scout? I'm sure he'd take the job.
All Givony has been doing is holding Kanter's lack of resume against him, which is a rational thing to do. What is he supposed to do? Ignore HS games but hold the Nike Hoop Summit game as the definitive proof of his abilities? Seriously?
As for the people who are questioning his motives, please tell me what his motives might be. What exactly does he influence in NBA front offices? These are the big leagues, these organizations pay a lot of money to their scouts to watch these players themselves and come back with an opinion of their own. Do you really think they're going to base their opinions on a player off of what Givony says? If they valued his opinion so much, then why wouldn't they just hire him as a scout? I'm sure he'd take the job.
Well, as you said, Givony's mock draft has Kanter at #6 right now. All the buzz around the league, at least that which we're hearing, suggests that Kanter is definitely in play at #2 and would be a surprise to fall below #4. That wouldn't be a big deal in the middle of the draft, but when you have a guy who seems to be a clear top-4 talent dropping to 6, that raises some questions as to why.
Givony is apparently basing this decision on games that Kanter played two, maybe three years ago. Granted, we don't have a lot of tape of him since then, so there's not a lot for us as fans to go on. But Givony typically uses a lot of scout/GM feedback in creating his mocks. So either 1) the scout/GM feedback isn't what we're hearing in the public media, or 2) the scouts/GMs are lying to Givony "confidentially", or 3) Givony is going solo on this one and ignoring Kanter's apparent standing because of his own uncertainty.
It kind of looks, at least to a lot of fans, that #3 is the case. I'm not saying he has an agenda, but I do believe that Givony does have a history (as does pretty much everybody else) of losing objectivity for a small number of players and Kanter may be another. People have suggested he's anti-Kentucky or anti-Calipari (he was also not high on Evans) but I don't think this is necessarily the case. But I think it's at least reasonable to think that he might have lost a bit of objectivity as concerns Kanter. It's not a big deal, but it's unusual and so it sparks attention.
Givony is apparently basing this decision on games that Kanter played two, maybe three years ago. Granted, we don't have a lot of tape of him since then, so there's not a lot for us as fans to go on. But Givony typically uses a lot of scout/GM feedback in creating his mocks. So either 1) the scout/GM feedback isn't what we're hearing in the public media, or 2) the scouts/GMs are lying to Givony "confidentially", or 3) Givony is going solo on this one and ignoring Kanter's apparent standing because of his own uncertainty.
It kind of looks, at least to a lot of fans, that #3 is the case. I'm not saying he has an agenda, but I do believe that Givony does have a history (as does pretty much everybody else) of losing objectivity for a small number of players and Kanter may be another. People have suggested he's anti-Kentucky or anti-Calipari (he was also not high on Evans) but I don't think this is necessarily the case. But I think it's at least reasonable to think that he might have lost a bit of objectivity as concerns Kanter. It's not a big deal, but it's unusual and so it sparks attention.
I'm not saying Europe doesn't produce good players year in and year out but this year is an exception. Vesely what can he do that's really special besides jump? he screams Joe Alexander Part II. Valanciunas has bust written all over him, he's too skinny and he will not be able to do those post moves in the nba against bigger, stronger defenders. I'm sorry I'm not as biased as you are because you are European so you feel the need to back up your fellow countrymen, I am European myself but when I don't see much potential in the players you mention, it's okay to have different opinions about them.
You are missing the point! I'm not saying we should draft any of them, I am asking you how you know they won't be good players when you haven't seen them play? I'd be doing the same thing if you were saying it about a college player. It doesn't make sense.
For what it's worth, I'll address the rest of your post. Vesely is nothing like Alexander. He is definitely more skilled. He's not nearly as strong. And he's not as good a jumper off two feet. You are only comparing them because they are both white and can jump, which is of course ridiculous. You haven't even seen him play, so I don't know how/why you'd make the comparison. Vesely could end up being like Kirilenko, but I digress. I'm not a fan of Valanciunas so I won't say anything about him.
Furthermore, I'm really not biased. None of the Euros are number one (or near it) on the guys that I want us to pick at 7. But I absolutely guarantee you at least one of the Euro guys will turn out to be a good player. Probably better than some of the higher rated college guys taken before them. And that's what you can't see.
I agree it's perfect for people to have different opinions on players. It would be no fun if everyone thought the same thing. But I do take issue when you openly dismiss players based on where they come from when you haven't even seen them play! Can you not see the missing link here? If you'd seen them play and didn't like them - fine! But you've openly stated you haven't seen them. So I'm bewildered.
Just one more thing: None of the Euros are my fellow country men, or even close to it. There are over 40 countries in Europe, dude! And I'm talking about international players, not just Euros, which broadens the term further. So there's no bias here. I'm closer to the US than I am some of these guys. I don't believe I've been biased to any of the European guys, I'm just not going to dismiss them because of where they're from. It's actually much more difficult to play professionally in Europe than it is to play in college in the US.
Thing is I don't know if we can afford to jsut add another young SF and hope he works out. And I'm not questioning he could. But with two already in town..it just threatens to turn the whole position into this big experimental inconsistent pool of weakness for another year. Or you toss the existing young guys, bring in a new one, and then top it off with a major vet...at which point the new young guy is a benchmwarmer.
Last edited:
Do you really think that this is a draft where after Irving and Williams it's clear where players are going? I don't think we can say that about this draft at all. Kanter is a huge mystery, so I don't see why it's so strange to have him at six. I'd say his draft stock is very volatile, and I think Givony is probably just trying to predict teams' reactions to Kanter's apparent reluctance about doing anything remotely competitive. That kind of thing can scare off GM's come draft time.
Givony has rarely been influenced by other mock draft trends, he tends to not get caught up in hype, and he's right far more often than other media sources are. I don't think he's ranking Kanter down, he's just not ranking him up until he sees reason to do otherwise. A lot of places around the internet don't know ****, they're more likely just following some flimsy rumor or copying someone else. I don't think he plays games with his mock, I think he takes it seriously and tries to predict the draft order like mocks are supposed to do. I don't know why people are overreacting so much to Kanter being at 6.
Givony has rarely been influenced by other mock draft trends, he tends to not get caught up in hype, and he's right far more often than other media sources are. I don't think he's ranking Kanter down, he's just not ranking him up until he sees reason to do otherwise. A lot of places around the internet don't know ****, they're more likely just following some flimsy rumor or copying someone else. I don't think he plays games with his mock, I think he takes it seriously and tries to predict the draft order like mocks are supposed to do. I don't know why people are overreacting so much to Kanter being at 6.
I really don't understand the Vesely hype. The guy is the age of a college junior and has little to no offensive skills. Yes, he's an athletic 6'11 guy, but he's a mediocre shooter, a horrible free throw shooter, not much of a ball handler, a poor rebounder for his size, doesn't block shots despite his length and athleticism, has little to no post up game, and is a tweener defensively. He will likely outgrow the SF position, and he has no big man skill to speak of. I'm not saying he's going to suck, but the comparisons to Kirilenko are ill-conceived.
Last edited:
Well, you're wrong. I don't know how many times you've seen Vesely play, but he does have skills. Obviously they're not nearly as refined as they can be, but that's where the intrigue lies. There is no way a guy as young as him gets significant minutes in Europe, and puts up very solid numbers, if he is not skilled. That's not how it works over here, like it or not. Vesely is a solid shooter with potential for growth in that area, although you're right about his free throw shooting, he needs to work on it big time. He's got a good basketball IQ, can pass, and plays the passing lanes pretty well. Rebounding is different in Europe and I don't see why he can't avergae over 5 or 6 a game in the NBA if he gets stronger and works on that part of his game. It's always black or white with you, there's no inbetween. Besides, I don't think Vesely is being hyped at all. I certainly haven't heard much about him at all - this latest tidbit about GMs being impressed having seen him recently is the first thing I've heard.
That's a fair point, and one I'd agree with. I don't think there's any chance Petrie takes Vesely, I was just saying that if we were to go SF, I'd be OK with him. He does have the talent to be a good player in the NBA. I think most of the potential guys we will take are going to be benchwarmers to start off with.
The only similarities is that they're white and can shoot. I'd say that's where it ends. I'm pretty sure Baja has given a pretty good post on this, but to summarise, Fredette is much more potent offensively. He has a far wider array of moves, is very crafty, gets to the line, is a good ball handler and passer. So AFAIC Fredette will certainly be the better player of the two.
Look at how he carries his body, and how he goes down and grabs his shorts immediately after the shooting drill is over. The guy is completely gassed. And despite that he hit 8 elbow jumpers in a row after starting out 2/7 to finish 10/15 in the clip we saw. Not terribly bad, especially if he's dog-tired.
What's unusual is that most of the time when teams release video like this, they'll clear it with the agents first, and it would be a lot easier to clear it with the agent if they only showed those last 8. Think of the videos we see released from Kings workouts. You rarely see a missed jumpshot, and you know it's not because the guy hit every one he took.
What's unusual is that most of the time when teams release video like this, they'll clear it with the agents first, and it would be a lot easier to clear it with the agent if they only showed those last 8. Think of the videos we see released from Kings workouts. You rarely see a missed jumpshot, and you know it's not because the guy hit every one he took.
Giovany changed his mind
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/5/21/2182746/nba-draft-rumors-2011
(Second Story) written by Tom Ziller
NBA Draft Rumors: Enes Kanter Aggravating Teams With Workout Decisions
Enes Kanter's odd decisions on when and where to work out for teams ahead of the 2011 NBA Draft could hurt his standing, reports Jonathan Givony of DraftExpress. In a comprehensive report on Kanter's prep school performance that includes rare video of the Turkish center in action, Givony reveals that teams have bristled at Kanter's workout schedule.
I definately see one of either Knight or Walker falling to us and we still take good ol' Jimmer. Which would be fine with me.
Also reports are that Toronto, Utah, and Washington are looking at the Euros today and are all impressed with Vesely.
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/5/21/2182746/nba-draft-rumors-2011
(Second Story) written by Tom Ziller
NBA Draft Rumors: Enes Kanter Aggravating Teams With Workout Decisions
Enes Kanter's odd decisions on when and where to work out for teams ahead of the 2011 NBA Draft could hurt his standing, reports Jonathan Givony of DraftExpress. In a comprehensive report on Kanter's prep school performance that includes rare video of the Turkish center in action, Givony reveals that teams have bristled at Kanter's workout schedule.
I definately see one of either Knight or Walker falling to us and we still take good ol' Jimmer. Which would be fine with me.
Also reports are that Toronto, Utah, and Washington are looking at the Euros today and are all impressed with Vesely.
It's obviously a more difficult draft to predict than some, but I think the top two tiers are pretty clear. Tier 1 is Kyrie Irving. That's it, just Kyrie Irving. Tier 2 is Derrick Williams, Enes Kanter, and Brandon Knight in some order. After that, things start to get very murky. Kemba Walker will probably go in the top 7. But outside of that, the 5-20 range is just incredibly fluid right now.
But yes, my take is that Irving goes #1. At #2, Minny will take Williams if they keep the pick, but Kanter and to some extent Knight are in play if the pick is dealt. At #3, the Jazz will probably take Williams if he's there, because he's a better fit, with Kanter and Knight both in play if available. At #4, the Cavs will gladly take either Kanter or Williams, and if those two are gone, they will likely deal down with somebody who wants Knight. The only one of those four I think can possibly fall out of the top four is Knight. It's only after Kanter's range that things get tough.
True, but he's not always right, and in the past he has gotten hung up on apparent flaws for some players, and consistently ranked them low. Take Tyreke. Where did he have Tyreke going until the day of the draft? Somewhere in the 8-10 range, I think, and he'd been there the whole year. Givony didn't (and still doesn't) believe in Evans. He moved Evans up to #4 in his mock only a few hours before the draft, presumably because he got some info from somewhere. Yet our front office was sweating Evans going at #2 or #3 the whole time, because they felt he was in play there. I think he's doing the same thing with Kanter, focusing on the negatives he perceives.
But yes, my take is that Irving goes #1. At #2, Minny will take Williams if they keep the pick, but Kanter and to some extent Knight are in play if the pick is dealt. At #3, the Jazz will probably take Williams if he's there, because he's a better fit, with Kanter and Knight both in play if available. At #4, the Cavs will gladly take either Kanter or Williams, and if those two are gone, they will likely deal down with somebody who wants Knight. The only one of those four I think can possibly fall out of the top four is Knight. It's only after Kanter's range that things get tough.
True, but he's not always right, and in the past he has gotten hung up on apparent flaws for some players, and consistently ranked them low. Take Tyreke. Where did he have Tyreke going until the day of the draft? Somewhere in the 8-10 range, I think, and he'd been there the whole year. Givony didn't (and still doesn't) believe in Evans. He moved Evans up to #4 in his mock only a few hours before the draft, presumably because he got some info from somewhere. Yet our front office was sweating Evans going at #2 or #3 the whole time, because they felt he was in play there. I think he's doing the same thing with Kanter, focusing on the negatives he perceives.