Will Cousins ever figure it out?... [EDIT] I think we're seeing it!

KingMilz said:
Only as a 2nd or 3rd option same thing as Kevin Love
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It's a poor musician who blames his instrument. I'll believe that Cousins can't win a title as a first option when I see an organization try and fail at putting a winning team around him. This one only really started with the trying part about six months ago.

EDIT - And, let's restructure that claim a bit: when Boston acquired Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett to join Paul Pierce, Pierce was still the first option. A lot of people thought that he would never be the first option on a championship team... until he was. So, let's keep it all the way one hundred: there's about a dozen teams that Cousins would make an overnight front-runner for the championship, and he'd immediately become the #1 option on, like, seven of them.

But, then again, I'm sure that if Cousins got the Bulls to the Finals, there'd be people talking about how Jimmy Butler was still the "real" best player, or whatever.
 
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KingMilz said:
Only as a 2nd or 3rd option same thing as Kevin Love
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There are about 3 players in the world who Cousins is a 2nd option to. One situation in all the world where he could ever be a #3, and would more likely end up in a muddled 1A/1B/1C with Durant and Westbrook, and win about 7 titles in a row.

Its weird the state of fans who have nothing, from the nothing gain a warped perspective on what everybody else has, imagine the grass is always greener, and yet desperately want to trash the only patch they have.

Its times like these I'm pretty damn glad Vlade is around to keep a cap on the stupidity.
 
It's a time for change. Doesn't have that extra "something"...the all important chemistry, that has to be their to move towards being a contender
 
ShastaKingsFan said:
It's a time for change. Doesn't have that extra "something"...the all important chemistry, that has to be their to move towards being a contender
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That all-important chemistry takes a while to fully develop. I think we've seen glimpses of it - when all 3 have been healthy and on the court at the same time AND, to me more importantly, when Karl hasn't hobbled them with ridiculous schemes.

If you want a successful stew, you have to let it simmer for a while. This one hasn't even warmed up yet.
 
Amit149 said:
I think that this is mostly a win for the Wizards (and one general note, when I'm going through this trade ideas I always like the trade for the team that get DMC- and that means something), though they seem to really like Beal and Porter showed a lot of promise it's a deal they'll gladly take (the only exception to this I think they'll have is dealing away Gortat- possibly to a 3rd party- in place of Nene's expiring).
John Wall and DMC pairing is right at the top of league duo's and it will make for a much better Durant hometown pitch (Wall-Durant-DMC will make them a perennial title contenders).

I don't see the Blazers doing that deal- they hit full rebuild once they lost LMA, and if they wanted a good starting SF they would have kept Batum- and since they are in full-rebuild I doubt they value Gay higher than McCollum who is young, showed a ton of promise and is under their control now in a rookie contract and will be a restricted FA. I also think that Ben has lower value than Mason Plumlee right now, and this deal eats some of their coveted cap space- so I think they'll say no.

Lastly, like I said I'm against trading Cousins since I don't think you can get enough for me to give up on him right now, but as far as trades goes I that this is the direction you wanna go... a young teams on contracts you can extend with a young core of McCollum-Beal-Porter-WCS-Plumlee is a pretty good starting point if you trust your GM to manage free agency.
But it's still a worse core than one that has DMC in it.
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No one is untradable and includes Cousins. The question is, what are you receiving in return? Would I trade Cuz for Lebron? Damm right! Would I trade him for C. J. McCollum, Beal, Porter, and Plumlee? No! Not even close. I wouldn't do that deal straight up, much less throw in Gay, McLemore, and Belinelli. Talk about undervaluing your players. I would have to get a lot more than that. As much as I don't want to talk about trading Cousins, there is a problem looming on the horizon. Cuz has two years left after this year on his deal, so he's ours for at least two more years. If we fold up and have another losing season and once more were in the lottery, I think we have to think hard about moving Cousins next year. You don't want to get into the final year of his contract knowing that he's likely to fly the coop at years end.

His value will never be higher than it is right now, or even next season. Once into the final year, with the entire league knowing he's going to leave, your going to get worse offers than you would right now, when a team trading for him knows they have him for two more years. That's just a fact of life. Now of course if your confident that the team is going to turn things around between now and then, well, you get what I mean. I'm just trying to be a realist, and right now, I see no indication that were playoff bound. I realize its still early and all that could change, which is why I wouldn't go into a panic mode yet. For the Kings, the question is, how much of our losing is because of Cousins. Or to put it another way, why, if he's as great as he is, aren't we winning more games? I think that's a fair question.

There are people on the forum that are fed up with excuses, and yet some of those same people immediately make up excuses for Cousins. I get that. He's one of, if not my favorite player on the team. But the one common denominator for the last five years of losing, is Cousins. It's always been the players around him that are at fault. Or it's been the coach that's at fault, and in fairness to Cuz, there's certainly some truth there. But, if were going to be objective, we have to put some of the blame on Cousins. He's hard to work with, and rightly or wrongly, he's not beloved by the ref's around the league. I've said this before but its true. Leaders are born, not made. By that, I mean you either have the quality's that cause people to follow you, or you don't. Not everyone can say follow me, and have people start following.

First and foremost, a leader has to be respected, and talent alone doesn't do it. Latrell Sprewell had a lot of talent and I wouldn't have followed him into the men's room. You have to have the talent to lead, but you also have to conduct yourself in a way that people respect. You don't earn respect by continuing to disrupt things and then say your sorry. That's what children do. You don't earn respect by setting standards for everyone around you, but not adhere to the same standards yourself. Having said all that, I still want Cousins to succeed. But the clock is running, and if nothing changes, the Kings may have to seriously consider trading Cousins. Not because they want to, but because it's the only reasonable course left for them.
 
Lost in this Webber talk, apparently, is that he was listed a coaching problem and a malcontent until we traded for him. Then when here, under Rick, with a quality roster, good ownership at that time(yes the Maloofs were good during our golden era) and with a GM who had his best run of his career, Webber's entire reputation and success changed.

So, do you want to be the team who takes advantage of a talent like that heading into his prime or do you want to be another version of Wash, 98-06? Us being far closer to Wash than what we were in our golden era is the problem. A poorly run and managed organization like Wash fails to capitalize on a talent like Webber and mistakenly thinks moving him will solve the problem when the problems start before Webber even hit the court and comes for above.
 
bajaden said:
But, if were going to be objective, we have to put some of the blame on Cousins. He's hard to work with, and rightly or wrongly, he's not beloved by the ref's around the league. I've said this before but its true. Leaders are born, not made. By that, I mean you either have the quality's that cause people to follow you, or you don't. Not everyone can say follow me, and have people start following.

First and foremost, a leader has to be respected, and talent alone doesn't do it. Latrell Sprewell had a lot of talent and I wouldn't have followed him into the men's room. You have to have the talent to lead, but you also have to conduct yourself in a way that people respect. You don't earn respect by continuing to disrupt things and then say your sorry. That's what children do. You don't earn respect by setting standards for everyone around you, but not adhere to the same standards yourself. Having said all that, I still want Cousins to succeed. But the clock is running, and if nothing changes, the Kings may have to seriously consider trading Cousins. Not because they want to, but because it's the only reasonable course left for them.
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Some of the blame? Certainly. What gets me is every single time something happens some people automatically conclude it had to be Cousins fault, even before the facts are known. Proof of this is obvious when you look at things like the "altercation" between Cousins and OJ Mayo, that was spreading like wildfire. First, it wasn't an altercation and second, it wasn't even Mayo but hey, it was still Cousins fault. That's crap, and I for one will ALWAYS stand up and defend DMC in that kind of circumstance.

Second, I think our real answer is playing at the 1 right now. Rondo is a leader, on and off the court. He is a true floor general and he has already earned the respect of everyone who works with him. Most importantly, Cousins respects him...and that is the icing on the cake. Cousins listens to Rondo, and Rajon doesn't seem to have any difficulty controlling the big guy...or at least he's working in that direction.

Cousins is a handful and pretty high maintenance. But, on the other hand, he has a talent that I cannot ever recall seeing in all the years I've watched the NBA. That's worth doing everything you possibly can to keep that talent. Why? Because the alternative is that he'll leave and for decades Kings fans will realize he was the one we should never have let get away.
 
bajaden said:
... There are people on the forum that are fed up with excuses, and yet some of those same people immediately make up excuses for Cousins. I get that. He's one of, if not my favorite player on the team. But the one common denominator for the last five years of losing, is Cousins. It's always been the players around him that are at fault. Or it's been the coach that's at fault, and in fairness to Cuz, there's certainly some truth there. But, if were going to be objective, we have to put some of the blame on Cousins...
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In my opinion, the issue is not that Cousins doesn't deserve some blame. The issue is that there is a virtual verbal "war" being fought over what the value of "some" is.
 
VF21 said:
Some of the blame? Certainly. What gets me is every single time something happens some people automatically conclude it had to be Cousins fault, even before the facts are known. Proof of this is obvious when you look at things like the "altercation" between Cousins and OJ Mayo, that was spreading like wildfire. First, it wasn't an altercation and second, it wasn't even Mayo but hey, it was still Cousins fault. That's crap, and I for one will ALWAYS stand up and defend DMC in that kind of circumstance.
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The reason why I created this thread and sort of unleashed on Cuz was the fact that it's no secret Jared Sullinger has owned his ass every time they've faced each other. If I believe that I'm the best big man in the game, I'm circling this one at the start of the season and showing him what's up. But that didn't happen. He got worked again. Just so happened the icing on the cake was having IT torch us as well. Same guy DMC ran out of town. One of our only successful draft picks in years traded away for nothing because Cousins didn't like playing with him.
 
VF21 said:
We've had ZERO indication that Cousins wants out, other than some rumors that were most likely attributable to his agent and not DMC himself.
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Other than the facts that:

1. He hates losing.
2. We lose.

Other than, no, there's no indication he may want to leave in the near future.
 
For those arguing there is still gas in the tank and more needs to be done under this management group with DMC to compete, I ask yet again: how many more lottery seasons is enough for you? How many years of attempts is enough before a total rebuild is merited? I have yet to hear this answered.
 
Showtime said:
For those arguing there is still gas in the tank and more needs to be done under this management group with DMC to compete, I ask yet again: how many more lottery seasons is enough for you? How many years of attempts is enough before a total rebuild is merited? I have yet to hear this answered.
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There is nothing you can do about incompetence.
 
kingsboi said:
There is nothing you can do about incompetence.
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Yes, and I understand that the current ownership and management staff has not been responsible for all 6 seasons of DMC's career. I fully understand the desire to want to give them more time. However, we've seen 6 years of DMC and instead of having a clear picture of what he does best and how he helps his teams in very specific areas, our current coaching and managing group is throwing his worth out the window. I'm sorry, but anybody who has half a brain understands that this current offensive scheme is the worst possible one to use with this roster.
 
Merdiesel said:
The reason why I created this thread and sort of unleashed on Cuz was the fact that it's no secret Jared Sullinger has owned his ass every time they've faced each other. If I believe that I'm the best big man in the game, I'm circling this one at the start of the season and showing him what's up. But that didn't happen. He got worked again. Just so happened the icing on the cake was having IT torch us as well. Same guy DMC ran out of town. One of our only successful draft picks in years traded away for nothing because Cousins didn't like playing with him.
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You know this how? What I remember is that the Suns offered him a nice contract the Kings did not match. In hindsight I think matching and then trading him would have been a better move. But Cousins is responsible? I don't recall that. I'm beginning to think DMC might be blamed for global warming next:confused:
 
bajaden said:
His value will never be higher than it is right now, or even next season. Once into the final year, with the entire league knowing he's going to leave, your going to get worse offers than you would right now, when a team trading for him knows they have him for two more years. That's just a fact of life. Now of course if your confident that the team is going to turn things around between now and then, well, you get what I mean. I'm just trying to be a realist, and right now, I see no indication that were playoff bound. I realize its still early and all that could change, which is why I wouldn't go into a panic mode yet. For the Kings, the question is, how much of our losing is because of Cousins. Or to put it another way, why, if he's as great as he is, aren't we winning more games? I think that's a fair question.
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This is a great post, and I especially like the above part. One thing I might add: Cousins may make it easy on the FO to make the decision to keep him or not. If past is prologue, and the Kings continue with another losing season and Cousins does his typical behavior of "acting out" in frustration, it makes the decision easier for the FO to trade him. But if there is a losing season and Cousins really acts like a leader and with some class, then it makes it more difficult for the FO to think about trading him. Of course, if the Kings really start turning it around and start winning with regularity, the whole thing becomes moot.
 
Showtime said:
Yes, and I understand that the current ownership and management staff has not been responsible for all 6 seasons of DMC's career. I fully understand the desire to want to give them more time. However, we've seen 6 years of DMC and instead of having a clear picture of what he does best and how he helps his teams in very specific areas, our current coaching and managing group is throwing his worth out the window. I'm sorry, but anybody who has half a brain understands that this current offensive scheme is the worst possible one to use with this roster.
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That's exactly why I say it's incompetence. Even before Karl's hire...a lot of people still had doubt that his style of play wouldn't match with Cousins and be translating to wins. Instead, he either allows or asks Cousins to shoot three's with a 270 pound frame.
 
VF21 said:
Some of the blame? Certainly. What gets me is every single time something happens some people automatically conclude it had to be Cousins fault, even before the facts are known. Proof of this is obvious when you look at things like the "altercation" between Cousins and OJ Mayo, that was spreading like wildfire. First, it wasn't an altercation and second, it wasn't even Mayo but hey, it was still Cousins fault. That's crap, and I for one will ALWAYS stand up and defend DMC in that kind of circumstance.

Second, I think our real answer is playing at the 1 right now. Rondo is a leader, on and off the court. He is a true floor general and he has already earned the respect of everyone who works with him. Most importantly, Cousins respects him...and that is the icing on the cake. Cousins listens to Rondo, and Rajon doesn't seem to have any difficulty controlling the big guy...or at least he's working in that direction.

Cousins is a handful and pretty high maintenance. But, on the other hand, he has a talent that I cannot ever recall seeing in all the years I've watched the NBA. That's worth doing everything you possibly can to keep that talent. Why? Because the alternative is that he'll leave and for decades Kings fans will realize he was the one we should never have let get away.
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Unfortunately in Cousins case, he came with a reputation. And if you do the research, which I did before we ever drafted him, quite a bit of that reputation was undeserved. I won't go into the details again, but none the less, he came with a reputation. Having Westphal as a coach was probably the worse case scenario for Cuz. Westphal came with a reputation as well, of not getting along with some of his star players, particularly those that might disagree with his coaching, like Payton. What I'm trying to say, is that it wasn't the best atmosphere for his development. If anything, it was worse.

Be that as it may, at this point, it doesn't matter how we got to where we are, it only matters where we are, and what we do about it. I'm by no means advocating that we trade Cousins, but I'am suggesting that we better have a sense of urgency about righting the ship, or Cousins will leave of his own volition. The worse case scenario is that he leaves, and we get nothing in return, but an address to send his last check to. Now that's a bit extreme, but these things can sneak up on you, if take for granted that his loyalty will keep him around indefinitely.
 
Showtime said:
Other than the facts that:

1. He hates losing.
2. We lose.

Other than, no, there's no indication he may want to leave in the near future.
Click to expand...

An indication that he MAY want to leave in the future is NOT what we've been talking about. Thanks for playing...
 
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