Stan.Helsing
G-League
These are 2 excellent points and why I'm not so keen on Lyles being paid too much. Good guy to have on the roster but at the right price.
Who Should We Sign? (2023 Off-Season)
- Thread starter twslam07
- Start date
serbiangoat
Starter
Mirotic is getting all sorts of offer from Euroleague teams now that he's most likely bailing on Barca I think the Kings should really try sign him go all out shooting from the C/PF (other than Sabonis) with Mirotic (small ball 5)/Sasha/Murray (won't need Lyles). I would promise him the starting PF (assuming Barnes leaves) and give him like a 3 year 30-36mil deal. If they can get that done and just sign a explosive athlete wing to back up Murray or even start and bring Mirotic on as the main option of the bench with a pick n pop of Monk and Mirotic.
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coolhandluke
Starter
Does Mirotic want to come back to the NBA though? He turned down a 3 year, 45 million deal from the Jazz to go back to Europe to be with his family. As a floor spacing C/PF, he would certainly fit well with Sabonis but it will be a step down in terms of his role and minutes.
serbiangoat
Starter
I think he wanted to go back to Spain but the teams offering him deals are not from Spain I don't think Real Madrid the only other team that could offer him 5mil per year can afford that currently. Barca is trying to cut his salary in half as well, I see no reason why he would not come back to the NBA to make more money and play similar minutes if he's not playing in his adopted country of Spain. Very few if any clubs can offer him the 5mil figure.
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The Sixers also traded Jimmy Butler for Josh Richardson and Mikal Bridges for Zhaire Smith. It's not like they're batting 1000 over there. Thybulle can dunk and he's a 33% career three point shooter. So yes, he's clearly capable of being an NBA offensive player. Maybe not a starter, but as a 3 and D bench player his overall combination of skills is still above average. I've been saying this for the last 15 years but I might as well say it again: there's this misperception among fans that we can acquire scorers and then teach them defense. Has that even worked once? Defense is not just effort and athleticism -- it's as much of a skill as shooting or dribbling.
Kingz19
Hall of Famer
I like PJ Washington and Grant Williams. Even Dillon Brooks if the market sours on him enough to get him at a good price.
Perhaps the Kings should try to acquire Isaiah Stewart of Detroit via trade? He might be an odd man out with the flier on Wiseman. Detroit will also be in position to potentially draft another PF as well. Stewart is a long(7’5 wingspan I’ve read) switchable PF/C who has some floor spacing potential and can provide some rim protection. Physical player. Can possibly be had for second round picks.
He’s the type of forward I can see being ideal next to Domas or in relief. There is still some potential to unlock.
probably a bench guy now which is fine as he has a restricted free agency coming up. He could take up that role Metu and Lyles shared during the Kings best stretches last season. That was a pretty valuable role as the Kings had their best stretches with Metu in the rotation. He also had the best defensive rating. Stewart would actually be good though.
Perhaps the Kings should try to acquire Isaiah Stewart of Detroit via trade? He might be an odd man out with the flier on Wiseman. Detroit will also be in position to potentially draft another PF as well. Stewart is a long(7’5 wingspan I’ve read) switchable PF/C who has some floor spacing potential and can provide some rim protection. Physical player. Can possibly be had for second round picks.
He’s the type of forward I can see being ideal next to Domas or in relief. There is still some potential to unlock.
probably a bench guy now which is fine as he has a restricted free agency coming up. He could take up that role Metu and Lyles shared during the Kings best stretches last season. That was a pretty valuable role as the Kings had their best stretches with Metu in the rotation. He also had the best defensive rating. Stewart would actually be good though.
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Is he though? Honestly, I think Lyles might actually be a 5/4 that hasn't fully been unlocked at to play the C position yet.
He's no rim protector, but he can match physicality with most C's and he's a very good rebounder. Anytime he took over the C slot, I honestly didn't notice a decline on defense over any of the other back-up C options. If anything, we probably got better. That Minny game where he absolutely put Gobert in a blender on defense was super eye-opening because he just took him away from the rim. And of course, we won game 6 on the back of Keegan/Lyles at the 4/5 slot. Two positions that Brown really didn't put either guy in very much this season.
I hope Brown really builds on that set this off-season. I think the Fox-Monk-Lyles at the 5 second unit would absolutely crush teams offensively.
That's part of the problem. Basketball is 10000% different than it was 15 years ago. Hell, even 5 years ago. It honestly has gotten to the point if you can't bring some elite intangible on offense, you just can't be a big minute NBA player on a good team.
I've loved Vandy for years now, but man the playoffs were a bit of an eye-opener. He probably still should have gotten more minutes, but he just got played off the floor because he couldn't shoot. Now, that's partly because AD and Bron really can't either, but just goes to show that you can basically have max 2 guys on the floor who can't space or be an offensive threat.
I've liked Thybulle for a long time, but I just have an inkling he's going to get paid like a starter when in reality, he's barely been a passable NBA player for years now. Even with how good his defense is. If he were "let's take a 2/10 flier" type contract, I'd be all in.
This is also another real easy answer to the just plug in at the 3. Fits everything this team needs, would pretty quickly solve our issues we saw rebounding on both ends, has developed into an excellent secondary passer, is great friends with Fox. Will be 28 at the start of the season, so basically would be inking his prime years of 28-31/32.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
At his core he's obviously not a 5 but I agree as a small ball 5/skilled spreader he was the teams best bet this last season for sure.
And yet the top 16 teams in 3PM during the regular season are watching the Finals from home. Denver shoots a good percentage but they don't shoot very many. Miami was 27th in 3pt% during the season and their roster is loaded with guys who don't have elite offensive intangibles of any kind. I don't think there's one formula that works. If we were a dynamite defensive team with problems scoring the ball than obviously Thybulle would not be a good fit. People keep citing Davion's lack of shooting for keeping him off the floor in Game 7 but we lost that game and all of the good shooters Mike Brown trusted didn't get the job done. It's obvious where we need to get better -- as the #3 seed in the West this season with most of our core unit already under contract, we can afford to overpay for the right piece.
I'm not even saying that I want big minutes out of Thybulle. Pay him what he's worth and put him on the floor for 15 minutes a game so our bench unit doesn't allow opponents to hang around and make the last 5 minutes interesting. And yes signing players in free agency is always an overpay but they don't cost you good young players or draft picks like a trade would so it evens out in many ways. A top 5 wing defender is worth a hell of a lot more than 5 million a year. He won't mess with team chemistry by demanding shots and he's the kind of guy who will make everyone else look better on the defensive end by executing clean switches and getting his hands into the passing lanes.
[QUOTE="hrdboild, post: 1735799, member: 1083"]And yet the top 16 teams in 3PM during the regular season are watching the Finals from home. Denver shoots a good percentage but they don't shoot very many. Miami was 27th in 3pt% during the season and their roster is loaded with guys who don't have elite offensive intangibles of any kind. I don't think there's one formula that works. If we were a dynamite defensive team with problems scoring the ball than obviously Thybulle would not be a good fit. People keep citing Davion's lack of shooting for keeping him off the floor in Game 7 but we lost that game and all of the good shooters Mike Brown trusted didn't get the job done. It's obvious where we need to get better -- as the #3 seed in the West this season with most of our core unit already under contract, we can afford to overpay for the right piece.
I'm not even saying that I want big minutes out of Thybulle. Pay him what he's worth and put him on the floor for 15 minutes a game so our bench unit doesn't allow opponents to hang around and make the last 5 minutes interesting. And yes signing players in free agency is always an overpay but they don't cost you good young players or draft picks like a trade would so it evens out in many ways. A top 5 wing defender is worth a hell of a lot more than 5 million a year. He won't mess with team chemistry by demanding shots and he's the kind of guy who will make everyone else look better on the defensive end by executing clean switches and getting his hands into the passing lanes.[/QUOTE]
I mean... come on haha. Denver was 18th in 3PM and 4th in 3p%. Oh and the best player in the world leading one of the best offenses in the world. Hard to say 3pt shooting isn't vastly important to their success. Also, Denver playoff shooting:
Jokic 46.9% on 3.8 3PA
KCP 40.5% on 4.6 3PA
Murray 39.1% on 7.8 3PA
Gordon 37.5% on 2.4 3PA
MPJ 37.5% on 7.1 3PA
Bruce Brown 31.8% on 2.6 3PA
And Miami's WHOLE playoff run has been predicated on them shooting an ungodly good % from 3 and burying superior teams by that notion.
Martin 44% on 4.7 3PA
Robinson 44% on 5.0 3PA
Vincent 41.3% on 6.4 3PA
Lowry 38% on 3.6 3PA
Love 36.5% on 4.4 3PA
Butler 36.4% on 3.5 3PA
Strus 33.6% on 6.1 3PA
Just imagine how far the Kings would have made it if our core shot these numbers rather than the exact opposite end of the spectrum and being trash?
I'm just not going to buy at all that elite shooting hasn't been a core reason why both of these teams are here in the finals. Miami certainly isn't this talented a shooting team, but they have been for this stretch run
I'm not even saying that I want big minutes out of Thybulle. Pay him what he's worth and put him on the floor for 15 minutes a game so our bench unit doesn't allow opponents to hang around and make the last 5 minutes interesting. And yes signing players in free agency is always an overpay but they don't cost you good young players or draft picks like a trade would so it evens out in many ways. A top 5 wing defender is worth a hell of a lot more than 5 million a year. He won't mess with team chemistry by demanding shots and he's the kind of guy who will make everyone else look better on the defensive end by executing clean switches and getting his hands into the passing lanes.[/QUOTE]
I mean... come on haha. Denver was 18th in 3PM and 4th in 3p%. Oh and the best player in the world leading one of the best offenses in the world. Hard to say 3pt shooting isn't vastly important to their success. Also, Denver playoff shooting:
Jokic 46.9% on 3.8 3PA
KCP 40.5% on 4.6 3PA
Murray 39.1% on 7.8 3PA
Gordon 37.5% on 2.4 3PA
MPJ 37.5% on 7.1 3PA
Bruce Brown 31.8% on 2.6 3PA
And Miami's WHOLE playoff run has been predicated on them shooting an ungodly good % from 3 and burying superior teams by that notion.
Martin 44% on 4.7 3PA
Robinson 44% on 5.0 3PA
Vincent 41.3% on 6.4 3PA
Lowry 38% on 3.6 3PA
Love 36.5% on 4.4 3PA
Butler 36.4% on 3.5 3PA
Strus 33.6% on 6.1 3PA
Just imagine how far the Kings would have made it if our core shot these numbers rather than the exact opposite end of the spectrum and being trash?
I'm just not going to buy at all that elite shooting hasn't been a core reason why both of these teams are here in the finals. Miami certainly isn't this talented a shooting team, but they have been for this stretch run
But also, I'm not going to cry spilled milk if we ink Thybulle to like a 3/20 deal. That's fine for most bench players, even though i'd still rather just play Edwards for cheaper and without the long-term commitment. But I'm just far more worried Thybulle gets that starter deal and I don't want us to be the one holding the bag.
The regular season represents 82 games. Our playoffs lasted 7 games. You know who a team is after 82 games and as a team we are elite on offense and mediocre at best on defense. And maybe (considering Miami and Denver's hot shooting in the playoffs) you need to be both lucky and good to win a championship?
I'm just saying that people make this out to be more complicated than it is. How do we improve next season? Get better on defense. How do we do that? Add good defenders. One or two guys is not going to change the entire offense as long as we still have Fox, Sabonis, Murray, Monk, and Huerter as our primary shot makers and playmakers. Thybulle is a 33% career three point shooter. He's just as likely to get hot at the right time as anyone else.
I'm just saying that people make this out to be more complicated than it is. How do we improve next season? Get better on defense. How do we do that? Add good defenders. One or two guys is not going to change the entire offense as long as we still have Fox, Sabonis, Murray, Monk, and Huerter as our primary shot makers and playmakers. Thybulle is a 33% career three point shooter. He's just as likely to get hot at the right time as anyone else.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
I like that you brought up Miami here. Bam is showing us that not all bigs have to shoot the three ball. He's been in the league 5 seasons now and I think you can count on one hand how many attempts he's had. He's been a 2 time all-star and a 4 time all defensive team recipient so this notion that all bigs need to shoot the three instead of doing what they excel at is what gets teams running on that perennial hamster wheel.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
I agree, but it's likely going to be a little more zig zaggy than that for the Kings. This is the issue with building a team like Monte did that's more based on skill rather than defense or athletic ability. The defense for sure can be improved by personnel, and should be to some extent, but sometimes, getting more dominant individually on offense can actually help you on the other end. Not to mention strategy that works more for your personnel. Denver is a good example of that. They don't inherently have great defensive personnel and have probably one of the worst defensive C's in the league but they have a legit four players that can produce. They're defensive net rating in the playoffs is actually one spot BELOW that of the Kings. The next question for a team like Denver is whether or not they are for real if and when some other dominant teams finally show up. That's where teams like the Clippers, Suns, Warriors, and a few others (hopefully the Kings!) have a say. There has been a brief window the last few years of no real dominant team that just flat out crosses off the W column on almost a nightly basis and that's why indeed shooting seems to be the difference maker. If the Suns live up to their potential, the West will change. If LeBron gets his way, it could change.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Yep, and overall a pick and roll big can get you places. Now for teams trying to recreate that, good luck. Bam isn't a franchise player for sure but bigs that can switch like him rarely come around.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
until the next group of individuals decide to form a superteam, the NBA will have some more parity which is great to see. It's either that, or the new crop of players decide to stick it out with their squads and compete against one another.
Stan.Helsing
G-League
One can never know when parity might vanish, which is why team in the Kings' current situation simply has to go for it.
These 4 players would do it AFAIC... Cam Johnson, Herbert Jones, Naz Reid, Jericho Sims.
G: Fox, Monk
G: Herbert Jones, Huerter
F: Murray, Kessler Edwards? or Troy Brown Jr? or Keita Bates?
F: Cam Johnson, Lyles
C: Sabonis, Naz Reid, Jericho Sims
Naz Reid is probably attainable this summer. I'm not sure how much you want to spend on a backup center that likely can't play significant minutes alongside Sabonis and who doesn't offer high level defense or much rim protection, but he's definitely a favorite around these parts.
The Nets have said that they'll match any deal to Cam Johnson. Whether they will or not, I don't like the idea of having to drastically overpay AND have the rest of the offseason moves be hung up while the Kings wait on the Nets' decision.
I'm not sure what the Kings could offer the Pelicans for Herb Jones. It doesn't make much sense to trade Keegan for him. Would New Orleans take Davion and the 24th pick? I don't know that it moves the needle for them.
He looked great next to Gobert, who is far less immobile and harder to plan around offensively than Domas is. I just don't think it's a problem and the team who's willing to take that risk and fully use Naz as true 4/5 flex likely gets rewarded in a big way. Everything is right there for the viewing with his stats and tape.
In terms of Cam, I think the only way you get him is through a S&T. Unrealistic, but what if you flipped Huerter for him and then used the HB money on Josh Hart? He'd be a big upgrade defensively and on the glass for the starting unit that desperately needs someone to help Domas and he's far more flexible to shift down to the 3 where you could run 2 guard+Hart LU's. Brown seemed very opposed to letting Huerter move down, so that's not something we can rely upon.
Fox || Davion
Hart || Monk
Keegan || Vezenkov
Cam || Vezenkov
Sabonis || Lyles
with Kessler, Queta, Keon, #24, #38 to round out the bench in your developmental slots.
I think that's your 9-man rotation there with far more versatility added than we had before. Keegan/Cam/Vezenkov all interchangeable with one another and you still have room for Lyles to play the 4/5 flex role. While Hart also gives you the ability to play small, even shifting him down to the 4 if you wanted.
Even if you can't flip the Cam idea, I'm growing a lot on bringing Josh Hart in. Dude is just the ideal role player you want on a good team. He's good friends with Fox, he fills a lot of the holes we have on the team and I think he'd fit right into the team chemistry without a problem. I'd have 0 issues plugging him at the 3, which would allow Keegan to play his more natural Big wing position at the 4. And he could still play that vet role that HB has been in, but just brings a more needed skill-set to the Kings. HB is just too much of the same archetype with Keegan and Vezenkov if we bring him in.
I think Hart is being honest when he says he wants to re-sign with the Knicks, and I think the NY front office will make that happen. But if he WANTED to come to Sacramento, I'd be all for that.
I'm also not convinced that Cam is an upgrade from Barnes other than in terms of his age. Either way, I think I'd be okay with starting Fox, Huerter, Hard, Murray and Sabonis. Both Huerter and Hart are probably best at SG (though I think Kevin has played well at the 3 even though Brown doesn't seem to like to use him there) but I like that lineup. It's a bit smaller but has improved rebounding and I think the defense is probably a bit better too, while not sacrificing any shooting/spacing.
As for Reid, I'm just not as high on him as others. And I think he'd be fine on offense. Not necessarily an upgrade if he's playing heavy minutes at the 4 since he's a good shooter for a big, but not an improvement over Barnes or Murray, especially as a movement shooter. But it's defense that I think takes a hit. Reid works next to Gobert because Rudy is the rim protector. If you're playing Reid and Sabonis, neither can protect the rim and one (or both) have to chase a more mobile player around on the perimeter.
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Kingster
Hall of Famer
The Lakers have been done for a while now in terms of a legit contender. I don't see a new coach being the answer for the Suns either. More than likely, the coach will be worse than what they had. Warriors just lost their GM who sees the train headed for the inevitable. Grizzlies have the Ja yoke around their neck. All in all, I don't see a dominant team in the West, unless you put Denver in that category, or unless miraculously the Clipps can stay healthy. The Kings have good enough talent "as is" to be a major player in the West because 1) they've got the coach, 2) a very good GM, and 3) stability. If the Kings had no trades, no draft picks and no FAs for the next couple of years they would still continue to improve because of the players' ages, the coach, the system, and the culture. As we've seen with Miami, coaching, development, culture and stability actually means something.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
I sure like him. The Celtics have done some dumb things with respect to their coaching. Maybe going forward they do some dumb things with their personell.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
I am just so angry that LeBron and the Lakers always seem to find a way. And to their credit they have cap flexibility if they use it right. Just total bull****. Every few years it's like that. After they traded Shaq, no problem, just wait a few years. Built a ****show after winning with LeBron, no problem, teams will not only help you in the interim but they'll make it to where YOU can choose your next step. Garbage.
Stan.Helsing
G-League
To me, the most important of the four guys I listed are...
1) Herb
2) Cam
3-4) Either Reid or Sims, although I would like both.
I think the Pels might go for the trade you suggested. Davion fits a bigger need for them at PG since GTA is their only real PG... whereas they are well-stocked at the SG and SF position with BI, McCollum, TM3, Daniels and Naji. I think Davion will go straight into their starting lineup TBH, and the 24th pick is a bonus.
I think it will be hard for the Nets to match an offer for Cam, and other teams are going to test their resolve there. Their active roster cap is already $146,428,035... not including cap-holds for Cam and others. So if the FO can somehow get Cam... coach Brown can go either...
Bigger: Fox, Herbert, Murray, Cam, Sabonis.
or
Smaller: Fox, Huerter/Monk, Herbert, Murray/Cam, Sabonis
... yet will always have enough spacing on the floor, while having Herb as the lead defender on the opponent's best guard or forward.
Josh Hart is too small at SF, especially with Murray being undersized at the 4 and Sabonis being undersized at the 5. He is better at SG for this roster... like in: Fox, Hart, Murray, Cam, Sabonis.
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Stan.Helsing
G-League
I think you have to assume that the Nuggets are going to be dominant in the next seasons, as long as their "big four" stay healthy. It is quite easy to find good, cheap 3&D guys to plug in with Jokic, Murray, MPJ and Gordon... and it would have been even easier if they had signed MPJ to a 5-year, $125M contract that is closer to his value, instead of that massive contract they gave him.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
It's probably not going to be quite as easy for the Nuggets as you'd think. Jokic's contract gets considerably more expensive starting next season, leading to them already being at 168 million dollars worth of salary despite only having half a roster signed for next year. Bruce Brown's probably opting out of his second year this summer, leaving the Nuggets without his bird rights and much of a chance to re-sign him. The good news for them is that they at least have their starting lineup locked down for next year but after that KCP's got a player option AND they're probably going to have to trade one of their forwards to balance the books.
I guess the idea would be that Braun and Peyton Watson both develop enough to step in for Brown/fill in for MPJ when he inevitably gets injured again but that puts the Nuggets back in 2021-2022 territory rather than where they are this year when everyone in their rotation has been healthy enough for them to be good. They also don't have a tradeable first round pick until 2029 and traded most of their excess second round picks (most of which they acquired when they got rid of Bones Hyland because Mike Malone didn't like him) for a Thomas Bryant rental so they don't really have much to work with if it turns out they need to retweak their roster over the coming years.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
If Miami and Denver are 1-1 currently then "dominance" is not the word I'd use for Denver. Denver lost at home and with an altitude advantage. I don't see Miami as world-beaters by any means in terms of talent and therefore can't assign "dominance" to Denver. I do believe Denver will win the whole thing, but they aren't exactly Jordan, Pippen, Rodman and Harper over there either. In sum, I'm not wringing my hands worrying that the Kings don't have a chance over the next few years to beat Denver in the playoffs.
Regarding the Denver lineup, if Denver can pick up someone who complements the Joker - Gordon - I see no reason why the Kings can't do the same with respect to Sabonis. Also, MPJ is one more back injury away from maybe having his entire career ended. If I'm a Denver fan I desperately want this year to be the year because their future for the next several years could go woosh down the drain if MPJ's luck runs out.
