DesertFox
Starter
Yes, but they didn't need someone to teach them how to win. They weren't scarred by the losing seasons, which allowed them to acquire those talents in the draft.
Vet free agents and filling out the roster
- Thread starter ovrush
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Yes, but they didn't need someone to teach them how to win. They weren't scarred by the losing seasons, which allowed them to acquire those talents in the draft.
That's one example....what about the Ben McLemores of the NBA who were given big roles resulting in confidence problems? I think the organization is better off having a guy like a Millsap or Tyreke or other who can be a focal point for a year.
DesertFox
Starter
Was he given big role? He had veteran competition who pooped the bed, then was consistently the 4th option at best on offense. If anything, he wasn't featured enough, although to be fair he didn't really do anything to warrant it. He played a lot, but didn't get a lot of responsibility.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
Tyreke being the focal point for a year would make me want to gauge my eyes out...pass. Been down that road. Let's not relive the past.
DesertFox
Starter
Vlade should look at the roster and say:
Ok, Fox no matter what should get 20 min, and if he does well, maybe 32 min. Mason, 0 if bad, up to 28 or so if good. So get someone who can expect to cover 8 min, has played 28 or so before, but will possibly not play at all.
Shooting guard is covered.
SF, pencil in Jackson for 12 to 28, so say 20. Temple soaks up the minutes Hield doesn't take at the 2, so Malachi and a vet would need to cover 28 minutes or so. Pencil Malachi for 20, and get a vet who would expect 8 min or so.
If Bogdan comes over, then it's a 3 way youth battle, and the vet can be more of a combo forward to help out at PF.
At PF, Skal, 16 to 32. So get someone who can expect to play 12 or so, then Willie and smallball vet SF can cover the rest. Giles will be a bonus.
Center should be covered.
Ok, Fox no matter what should get 20 min, and if he does well, maybe 32 min. Mason, 0 if bad, up to 28 or so if good. So get someone who can expect to cover 8 min, has played 28 or so before, but will possibly not play at all.
Shooting guard is covered.
SF, pencil in Jackson for 12 to 28, so say 20. Temple soaks up the minutes Hield doesn't take at the 2, so Malachi and a vet would need to cover 28 minutes or so. Pencil Malachi for 20, and get a vet who would expect 8 min or so.
If Bogdan comes over, then it's a 3 way youth battle, and the vet can be more of a combo forward to help out at PF.
At PF, Skal, 16 to 32. So get someone who can expect to play 12 or so, then Willie and smallball vet SF can cover the rest. Giles will be a bonus.
Center should be covered.
twslam07
All-Star
Then why do we need to sign a good veteran player to make sure our young guys develop a winning mindset? You don't need to win to actually develop the hunger to win every game you play.
If I can't make a deal to take on a bad contract that expires in 1-2 years for a pick, I would probably look to sign guys like Jordan Farmar, Tony Allen, Tayshaun Prince, & Anthony Tolliver to 1+1 deals.
Justin Jackson s most likely going to play little.....I'm assuming we get a vet SF.
Not developing the hunger to win, that is a given, giving them a chance to win is the goal. Getting blown out for a majority of the season is not the way to go. Wouldn't mind T Allen at all, but I'd want 1 guy that could actually score. Just a different philosophy. I think this team is going to struggle to win 18-20 games......getting 1 high level guy, that's not a PG or SG, gets this team to 25 wins but more competitive all year. Much better
roasthawg
Starter
Exactly... Spurs don't ever have high picks. Duncan is gone, Parker and ginobli are shells of themselves, Aldridge looks like a bad contract, yet they are still a top three team in the league. Winning is a culture there, it's part of the system. Their players might not be the best individual talents but they know how to win. They have no locker room cancers, no off court issues, and no problems winning. That's the franchise to try to emulate... NOT THE 76ERS!
twslam07
All-Star
It's actually not. Young kids are impressionable. Players will sometimes cash it in and coast. Having a coach like Joerger and vets who play hard around these young guys will help them adopt that mentality.
And why is giving them a chance to win "a goal?" Again, that's puts us right where we started (reducing the odds we land a star in next year's draft). How about this...if they want a chance to win, how about they play their butts off and try their hardest to win? They need to learn how hard it will be to win in this league, and I have all the confidence in the world that Joerger will be able to keep our young kids motivated and instill excellent principles in them.
twslam07
All-Star
Where the Spurs are right now is not comparable to our situation. Spurs had David Robinson since 1989-2003, they had Duncan from 1997-2016, and they had Leonard from 2011-now. Two of those guys were #1 overall picks. Their team won 21 games to get Robinson and 20 games to get Duncan, so in a way, horrible finishing seasons shaped this team's franchise centerpiece for about 25 years. That's not to say Poppovich hasn't done a tremendous job there but let's not pretend like two #1 picks didn't play a massive role in establishing the Spurs as one of the best franchises.
gunks
Hall of Famer
I'm with you on that. Get a vet SF, resign one of DC or Lawson, and call it an offseason. Maybe make a run at Otto for giggles.
We have a ton of kids who need minutes at PG, SG, PF/C. Gotta give em that PT to see who we move forward with.
OptimusRhyme
Jive Turkey
Lawson (2 year deal, second year team option)
Ingles (2 year deal)
Amir Johnson (2 year deal)
Lawson(12)/Fox(25)/The Tank (11)
Hield(30)/Bogdonovic(18)/Malachi
Ingles(13)/Temple(13)/Bogdonovic(8)/Malachi (14)/Jackson(Reno)
Skal(28)/Amir(15)/WCS(5)/Giles(Reno/Rehab)
WCS(23)/Koufos(12)/Papa(13)
I liked the Harkless idea aswell if we can get a 2019 first with him.
Ingles (2 year deal)
Amir Johnson (2 year deal)
Lawson(12)/Fox(25)/The Tank (11)
Hield(30)/Bogdonovic(18)/Malachi
Ingles(13)/Temple(13)/Bogdonovic(8)/Malachi (14)/Jackson(Reno)
Skal(28)/Amir(15)/WCS(5)/Giles(Reno/Rehab)
WCS(23)/Koufos(12)/Papa(13)
I liked the Harkless idea aswell if we can get a 2019 first with him.
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jcwkings
All-Star
PG: Collison, Mills
SF: Porter, Ingles, Gallinari
SF: Porter, Ingles, Gallinari
Ingles isn't gonna play 13 minutes if you sign him. More like 28-34.
Do you really think that this group of rookies will cash it in and not want to get after it? The second year guys? No, this group it's a given that they want to bring it. And I've already explained why we should go after a top FA.
Your delusional if you think 9 1st and second year guys can "play their butts off" and enforce their will on the league.
twslam07
All-Star
You are completely misunderstanding what I'm trying to say.
How does "playing your butts off" equate to "enforce their will on the league"? You can play your butt off and still lose many games. I thought this was pretty straight forward.
To assume that rookies and 2nd year players have good NBA habits out of the gate is ridiculous. It's a completely different environment. To assume is to be unprepared, and to be unprepared is to be more susceptible to failure.
And when you start talking in absolutes like "it's a given," that's where you start getting yourself into trouble. I'm sure the Lakers thought it was a given that Russell was their guard of the future or that Minnesota thought it was a given that Dunn would ready from day 1 or that the Kings thought it was a given that Tyreke was going to be an all-star someday. Nothing is given in this league.
Going after a top FA that is 30+ is foolish Let me break it down into a pros & cons list since I feel like individuals here are having a hard time absorbing.
Pros to Signing Millsap
- Hard working veteran who can show the kids how to be a professional
- Would increase our win total thus reduce the change of us landing a star in 2018
- Would reduce our cap space and cap flexibility when it comes time to make a trade/sign a player that has the potential to be a part of this team's future
Feel free to "fix" or update my pros and cons list if you'd like. I'd be curious to see how you would break it out.
I don't see the need to sign veterans that are just going to get us the 10th pick while we fail once again to make the playoffs. Haven't we been down that road before? It's time for something different.
We get one pick next year and nothing in 2019 so they need to develop the rookies as much as possible this year. With that comes losses. That's fine. Next year we land another Fox type talent and then in the fall of 2018 they can make a splash in FA and start playing to win.
Why sign a veteran PF? We have a bunch of big men already. Let Skal, WCS, Papa and Kofous play. Maybe even Giles depending on how he looks. Why take time away from these guys when it's not going to lead to success anyway?
I like the idea of signing low level vets on a just in case basis. A Farmar type PG would be great because he would be happy just to be on the roster and wouldn't put up a fuss if he didn't play a ton of minutes. We don't know if Fox or Mason will be ready so we're going to need a backup plan there. At SF we can sign either a starting caliber guy like Porter or a mid level guy because we have no idea what Jackson is going to bring his rookie year. We can't rely on these rookies to play 20min a game so we need someone there to come in if these guys are having a hard time.
We get one pick next year and nothing in 2019 so they need to develop the rookies as much as possible this year. With that comes losses. That's fine. Next year we land another Fox type talent and then in the fall of 2018 they can make a splash in FA and start playing to win.
Why sign a veteran PF? We have a bunch of big men already. Let Skal, WCS, Papa and Kofous play. Maybe even Giles depending on how he looks. Why take time away from these guys when it's not going to lead to success anyway?
I like the idea of signing low level vets on a just in case basis. A Farmar type PG would be great because he would be happy just to be on the roster and wouldn't put up a fuss if he didn't play a ton of minutes. We don't know if Fox or Mason will be ready so we're going to need a backup plan there. At SF we can sign either a starting caliber guy like Porter or a mid level guy because we have no idea what Jackson is going to bring his rookie year. We can't rely on these rookies to play 20min a game so we need someone there to come in if these guys are having a hard time.
Kingsfan23
All-Star
I think we have every position covered in terms of playing time. Fox/Mason should be given looks. Buddy/Bogdan/Malachi/Temple/Jackson are already on the wings, all will need to play, and someone in addition to Jackson will be playing SF. Skal/Giles/Papa/Kosta/WCS will be getting minutes at 2 positions.
Playing time is accounted for already IMO, which is why I'd go the salary for picks route
Playing time is accounted for already IMO, which is why I'd go the salary for picks route
OptimusRhyme
Jive Turkey
True.. Didn't realize he played so many last year (24mpg).. I feel like its going to be really tough to fit Malachi into the rotation this year if Bog comes over.
We differ. For me next year getting the 10th or 15th pick is a much better season than getting the first or fifth pick.
steelevt
All-Star
Do the people who want to wait a year i.e. tank for the 2018 draft then play to win and get in the playoffs the following year, think it's really that easy? You don't just say I feel like we should try to win now and magically make the playoffs. Most teams do it in steps. Go from losing to mediocre then good. We have enough young guys. We need vets that can lead the young guys and teach them losing is not ok. Aim for playoffs/.500 next year and if we come up short we still get a draft pick. Build off that the following year. I don't want another year of drafting a top 5 pick unless it's us jumping from 12-14 to top 3
I understand the desire to improve the team but how would that help us long term? Especially with no pick in 2019?
I think there's a difference between "tanking" and playing the young kids, seeing what we actually have and evaluating team needs next off season with cap flexibility and a high draft pick that is likely to net us a better long term prospect than anyone we can actually sign this off season. That doesn't mean we shouldn't bid on a player's second contract and hope their team doesn't match, but signing a guy 28+ to his third deal for 4 years (which is what they will want) at likely an even higher price tag seems like a great way to tread water. We sold our franchise player to do a complete overhaul, don't rush it by putting a big engine in a pinto.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
that's silly talk. The Kings are in prime position to continue adding youth and draft picks and eventually one of these draft picks will be our cornerstone. That's what it's all about. Once you do find your cornerstone, it's time to build around that player. Hopefully in our case, one single cornerstone won't get very far because in the NBA now you need multiple all-stars to be contenders and not pretenders. Having a 2018 top 5 pick would be crucial in playing the odds of the Kings getting that cornerstone.
If the Sonics had signed a bunch of veterans to garner pointless wins during Durant's rookie year, they would have picked around 9th instead of 4th. DJ Augustin was picked 9th while Westbrook was picked 4th. You don't throw away your chance to up your odds exponentially to land an all star by signing a handful of vets who aren't good enough to get you to the playoffs but just good enough to keep you at the back end of the lottery.
Obviously they can't just turn the switch on and win after next year but the front office can gain a valuable top 5 pick and then kick the team into win mode by signing veterans during a season where they will have no first round pick. The young guys will be coming into their own and we will have a firmer grasp on who is going to make it and who is going to fizzle out. Trying to kick the team into win mode now does absolutely nothing other than keep us from having better odds at landing another superstar. They aren't going to win many games anyway. Winning 20 games or 30 games still means no playoffs. But 20 games means lots of experience for the youth and a top pick in next years draft. It's a no brainer.
Obviously they can't just turn the switch on and win after next year but the front office can gain a valuable top 5 pick and then kick the team into win mode by signing veterans during a season where they will have no first round pick. The young guys will be coming into their own and we will have a firmer grasp on who is going to make it and who is going to fizzle out. Trying to kick the team into win mode now does absolutely nothing other than keep us from having better odds at landing another superstar. They aren't going to win many games anyway. Winning 20 games or 30 games still means no playoffs. But 20 games means lots of experience for the youth and a top pick in next years draft. It's a no brainer.
I didn't realize Tayshaun Prince was still playing. Hes 37 now but if hes still got something left and we don't want to significantly break the bank for an older mentor that wont destroy our low win total he might be a good choice.
A few pluses include hes another Kentucky guy, plays SF, has won a championship, and I have heard Justin Jackson comparisons.
A few pluses include hes another Kentucky guy, plays SF, has won a championship, and I have heard Justin Jackson comparisons.
ParniValjak
All-Star
That is all well and good BUT....plenty of top 10 picks have not amounted to being an all-star let alone a franchise cornerstone and plenty of "later" picks have become all-stars and in some cases, franchise level talent (Leonard, Giannis, George, Butler, J. O'Neal etc...)
Bottom line is, that firstly there needs to be talent in the pool. No one knows what draft class of 2018 will be like. For all we know it could be one of the weakest in recent years so having even #1 pick means nothing in that case.
I think it is really important to build the culture of his standards, playing to win and expectation of success and then work your backside off as a front office to identify the undervalued talent and then develop that talent into a franchise level player. Spurs are masters at doing this. Kings can take the same approach. Build something tangible and be smart as a front office to get yourself in position to get the talent.
Say the Kings got lucky with Fox and he is a franchise changing talent and lets say they genuinely got a steal of the draft in Giles and Skal....maybe there are two franchise changing talents and another all-star in those 3. Time will tell.
Drafting is inexact science. Kings gotlucky with Cousins and Isaiah and seriously mismanaged the development of Tyreke Evans who could have been an all-star but let's forget Tyreke for a minute.
When new ownership took over, the front office moved forward with Cousins and Isaiah who they never really rated (mistake #1). Petrie left chest full of intellectual property and recommendations for the upcoming draft class of "Draft the Greek kid". They ignored him and used pick 7 on McLemore...they even admitted that they were looking to trade up to get him. This is where mistake #2 comes in. Can you imagine a team with DeMarcus Cousins, Isaiah Thomas, Giannis Antetokounmpo and possibly even Rudy Gay??
To me it says that you can build a contender without finishing with the #1 pick...or even top 3. You just need to be basketball savvy and make sure you absolutely get the picks right and make smart trades and signings. The Kings were SO close yet so far.
King in England
G-League
I don't know why I was under the impression that he was a competent 3 point shooter....
I still like him as an option, he's elite defensively (just made the all defensive 2nd team) and is still young at 25. May not be the best fit with this years roster but would still be a valuable asset going forward and I don't see how that could be a bad thing.
The signing would actually allow us to be flexible with the direction we wish to go in as well. He's young enough that he still has potential to grow but not too young that he adds to our lack of experience problem. He fits a position of need and seems to add to the culture we're growing. I don't think he should be dismissed because he's a bit lacking in the shooting department.
Sactown ExPat
Starter
I am pretty interested in taking on a Spurs salary dump of Green and Aldridge to fill the SF and PF needs. Both are enders next year, so we maintain flexibility and may even have some nice deadline options there. Green is a no-brainer; perfect fit for our needs. Aldridge, though, would need to come with an unprotected 2019 FRP, and ideally swaps in 2020 and/or 2021.
Alsridge could conceivably ruin chemistry, but I think we could keep him happy because he would definitely get his shots. He would also need to be on his best behavior in a contract year where he is looking for that last big contract and already had a falling out with the Spurs. Also, what I think is going on there is he is pretty certain they have no intention of resigning him in 2018, and also will not be giving him enough of the ball to get his stats back up for his last chance on the open market. We solve the stats problem, but at the same time I don't think Aldridge adds 10+ Ws so we maintain draft position.
Alsridge could conceivably ruin chemistry, but I think we could keep him happy because he would definitely get his shots. He would also need to be on his best behavior in a contract year where he is looking for that last big contract and already had a falling out with the Spurs. Also, what I think is going on there is he is pretty certain they have no intention of resigning him in 2018, and also will not be giving him enough of the ball to get his stats back up for his last chance on the open market. We solve the stats problem, but at the same time I don't think Aldridge adds 10+ Ws so we maintain draft position.
ParniValjak
All-Star
When a player wants to leave San Antonio, then that spells trouble to me. No thanks to Aldridge.
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