[Game] Kings @ Wolves, 11/17/21 5pm Pacific 8pm Eastern

Status
Not open for further replies.
Is there anyone who should get a pass on defense tonight? Flat out awful. Too many easy baskets and drives to the rim. Was there anyone out there who consistently stayed in front of his man on ball and wasn't giving up back door cuts left and right?
 
I don't. I just don't think trading Fox for Simmons is going to magically fix all our issues. Plus Simmons has legitimate issues going on in his life right now.
Exactly. People are bashing Fox but my goodness. The levels of WTF Simmons put up for a contender? Not comparable. Those are SCARY issues for a max player. On one hand, that's certainly on Philly for expecting him to be LeBron, and on the other, if he thinks he is LeBron, good luck on that trade Morey.

That said, if the Kings issues largely stem from Monte being such a noob and dangling half of his core only to be left standing at the alter, as is the case, then any major change will get those negative vibes out of the picture for a short time. Not a cure but maybe a bandaid. Vivek letting it get to that point time and again is the real problem. If Dumars is running the show behind a human shield that **** needs to stop. Dumars had a huge rise as a GM and a huge fall. Grow a pair and take it, no hiding.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
Exactly. People are bashing Fox but my goodness. The levels of WTF Simmons put up for a contender? Not comparable. Those are SCARY issues for a max player. On one hand, that's certainly on Philly for expecting him to be LeBron, and on the other, if he thinks he is LeBron, good luck on that trade Morey.

That said, if the Kings issues largely stem from Monte being such a noob and dangling half of his core only to be left standing at the alter, as is the case, then any major change will get those negative vibes out of the picture for a short time. Not a cure but maybe a bandaid. Vivek letting it get to that point time and again is the real problem. If Dumars is running the show behind a human shield that **** needs to stop. Dumars had a huge rise as a GM and a huge fall. Grow a pair and take it, no hiding.
A Fox/Buddy/Simmons/Barnes/Holmes core lineup is a legitimate improvement on what we have now and probably a playoff team.
A Tyrese/Davion/Simmons/Barnes/Holmes lineup could be really good defensively but would probably be the worst offense in franchise history unless Davion randomly turns into Kemba Walker. That's pretty much my train of thought right now.
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
A Fox/Buddy/Simmons/Barnes/Holmes core lineup is a legitimate improvement on what we have now and probably a playoff team.
A Tyrese/Davion/Simmons/Barnes/Holmes lineup could be really good defensively but would probably be the worst offense in franchise history unless Davion randomly turns into Kemba Walker. That's pretty much my train of thought right now.
But what about a Tyrese/Buddy/Simmons/Barnes/Holmes lineup? Certainly offensively better, and Davion/TD would be workable for a bench squad, with the problem being the bench 3/4 slots, but that's a problem now anyway.
 
A Fox/Buddy/Simmons/Barnes/Holmes core lineup is a legitimate improvement on what we have now and probably a playoff team.
A Tyrese/Davion/Simmons/Barnes/Holmes lineup could be really good defensively but would probably be the worst offense in franchise history unless Davion randomly turns into Kemba Walker. That's pretty much my train of thought right now.
How about a Tyrese/Buddy/Simmons/Barnes/Holmes lineup (with Davion off the bench) if we can get Simmons for Fox without giving up Hield?
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
But what about a Tyrese/Buddy/Simmons/Barnes/Holmes lineup? Certainly offensively better, and Davion/TD would be workable for a bench squad, with the problem being the bench 3/4 slots, but that's a problem now anyway.
There's still that matter of iso scoring. Pick and roll actions only can get you so far. It's why the Suns still end games isoing up Booker despite having possibly the best PnR player/point guard of all time on their roster.

Tyrese and Simmons are excellent facilitators but once defenses tighten up, the only guy on that roster who'd be able to generate his own offense would be Barnes and he's only passable at best.
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
How about a Tyrese/Buddy/Simmons/Barnes/Holmes lineup (with Davion off the bench) if we can get Simmons for Fox without giving up Hield?
I would not even consider trading Fox AND Buddy for Simmons. That's giving up way too much (even if it could be made to work financially). Fox for Simmons is a classic challenge trade at this point, and if Morey puts higher value on a guy who can't shoot and won't play for him, well, bully for him, but hang up.
 
A Fox/Buddy/Simmons/Barnes/Holmes core lineup is a legitimate improvement on what we have now and probably a playoff team.
A Tyrese/Davion/Simmons/Barnes/Holmes lineup could be really good defensively but would probably be the worst offense in franchise history unless Davion randomly turns into Kemba Walker. That's pretty much my train of thought right now.
Defense wins. Ty, Davion, and Simmons > Ty, Fox, and Davion. By a mile.
 
There's still that matter of iso scoring. Pick and roll actions only can get you so far. It's why the Suns still end games isoing up Booker despite having possibly the best PnR player/point guard of all time on their roster.

Tyrese and Simmons are excellent facilitators but once defenses tighten up, the only guy on that roster who'd be able to generate his own offense would be Barnes and he's only passable at best.
True. I think with what we have currently we're not making it deep into the playoffs anyway, so I'd be more confident in the Simmons actually getting us there. Fox is unproven in the playoffs, and it's no secret I don't think he'll be the one to lead us as our best player anyway, so either way we'd fall short and need some extra pieces. My personal take is that at least with the situation you describe, you know what you need, and you aren't under any illusions that your max player (i.e. Fox) is all you need to go deep.
 
There's still that matter of iso scoring. Pick and roll actions only can get you so far. It's why the Suns still end games isoing up Booker despite having possibly the best PnR player/point guard of all time on their roster.

Tyrese and Simmons are excellent facilitators but once defenses tighten up, the only guy on that roster who'd be able to generate his own offense would be Barnes and he's only passable at best.
Fox isn’t an elite ISO scorer, because he’s a two level scorer. Defenses have adjusted to that and are just waiting for him in the paint.
 
Defense wins. Ty, Davion, and Simmons > Ty, Fox, and Davion. By a mile.
I get what you're saying but the NBA has changed. Balance is the key. Look at the Bucks. They tilted their identity between the regular season and playoffs. And even with that, a healthy and defenseless Nets dropkicks them out so quick last season their heads spin.
 
I get what you're saying but the NBA has changed. Balance is the key. Look at the Bucks. They tilted their identity between the regular season and playoffs. And even with that, a healthy and defenseless Nets dropkicks them out so quick last season their heads spin.
Balance is ideal, but right now it’s just another treadmilling year. Trade for Simmons. Become defensively elite then find what you need later.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
True. I think with what we have currently we're not making it deep into the playoffs anyway, so I'd be more confident in the Simmons actually getting us there. Fox is unproven in the playoffs, and it's no secret I don't think he'll be the one to lead us as our best player anyway, so either way we'd fall short and need some extra pieces. My personal take is that at least with the situation you describe, you know what you need, and you aren't under any illusions that your max player (i.e. Fox) is all you need to go deep.
Yeah, I get that but the problem there is that it is much harder to find that max player iso scorer type after you've already made your "all-in" trade than before.

Assuming we'd have more peripheral assets in a Fox-for-Simmons trade scenario than a Hali+assets-for-Simmons trade, we could possibly put together a package for an elite scorer somewhere down the road but you'd probably tear apart the balance of that roster (having to trade Haliburton, Mitchell, or Barnes or someone to make the other team bite) doing so.

It's a delicate balance and I sure as hell don't know the right answer (if I did, I'd be a GM and not a random message board poster) but I just think it's easier to build around Max scorer+Elite facilitator defender+ good role players than Elite facilitator/defender + Guy who might be an elite role player/borderline star type sometime in the future + good role players.
 
Yeah, I get that but the problem there is that it is much harder to find that max player iso scorer type after you've already made your "all-in" trade than before.

Assuming we'd have more peripheral assets in a Fox-for-Simmons trade scenario than a Hali+assets-for-Simmons trade, we could possibly put together a package for an elite scorer somewhere down the road but you'd probably tear apart the balance of that roster (having to trade Haliburton, Mitchell, or Barnes or someone to make the other team bite) doing so.

It's a delicate balance and I sure as hell don't know the right answer (if I did, I'd be a GM and not a random message board poster) but I just think it's easier to build around Max scorer+Elite facilitator defender+ good role players than Elite facilitator/defender + Guy who might be an elite role player/borderline star type sometime in the future + good role players.
I don't know if it's whether I have high respect for the posters on this board in particular, or a lack for the hiring practices of one, Vivek Ranadive, but I'd take this board over the Kings millionaire management carousel any day. Especially on most draft nights, haha.
 
Yeah, I get that but the problem there is that it is much harder to find that max player iso scorer type after you've already made your "all-in" trade than before.

Assuming we'd have more peripheral assets in a Fox-for-Simmons trade scenario than a Hali+assets-for-Simmons trade, we could possibly put together a package for an elite scorer somewhere down the road but you'd probably tear apart the balance of that roster (having to trade Haliburton, Mitchell, or Barnes or someone to make the other team bite) doing so.

It's a delicate balance and I sure as hell don't know the right answer (if I did, I'd be a GM and not a random message board poster) but I just think it's easier to build around Max scorer+Elite facilitator defender+ good role players than Elite facilitator/defender + Guy who might be an elite role player/borderline star type sometime in the future + good role players.
Yeah, all comes down to how good you really think Fox is/can be (including his strengths or flaws in running the team, leadership, defense etc). Whether or not you believe he can be a #1 guy or whether he's more a #2 or Mike Conley type on a winning team. Not a clear cut right answer by any means.

I don't know if I want to be paying Fox max money for the next 5 years knowing that he can't be the #1 guy though.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
I don't know if it's whether I have high respect for the posters on this board in particular, or a lack for the hiring practices of one, Vivek Ranadive, but I'd take this board over the Kings millionaire management carousel any day. Especially on most draft nights, haha.
All I know is that if we had had Bajaden running our draft room during the early Vivek years instead of PDA/Vlade, the Kings would be in much better position to win now.
 
I don't know if it's whether I have high respect for the posters on this board in particular, or a lack for the hiring practices of one, Vivek Ranadive, but I'd take this board over the Kings millionaire management carousel any day. Especially on most draft nights, haha.
Sometimes that gets you Hasheem Thabeet and Willie Cauley Stein though. Or Bismack. Heck, a lot of fans (including me) were pretty high on drafting Jimmer to play next to Tyreke cos we thought he'd be Beno with range at worst.
 

SLAB

Hall of Famer
I don't know if it's whether I have high respect for the posters on this board in particular, or a lack for the hiring practices of one, Vivek Ranadive, but I'd take this board over the Kings millionaire management carousel any day. Especially on most draft nights, haha.
We’d have Luka Doncic, and all the following draft misses in the world would be okay because we’d be three time playoff contenders now packing the arena and making more money than Vivek ever has as owner.
 
Defense wins. Ty, Davion, and Simmons > Ty, Fox, and Davion. By a mile.
I mean, it doesn't. The best offensive player is always going to overwhelm the best defensive player in a straight comparison of individual abilities.

Unless you're a big, team defense is far more important. To top it all off guard is the most irrelevant position defensively; it basically doesn't matter unless you're reaching IT levels of sieve. Mitchell's defense is a boon, not a requirement. That's how any organization worth any salt would be able to hide Buddy if need be. They did it with Lou Williams, Jamal Crawford, Trae, Harden, Lillard and McCollum (together!). The list goes on.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.