Tyreke Jumpshot

[Padrino]

Bad coaching or not he really hasn't proved that he has this game changing talent as of yet. Could he be? Sure... Like you had said he has the skill to potentially do this if he could get an outside shot. If players have to guard him at 3pt land then it would be easier for him to get to the basket. They wouldn't give him the space he has out there now and slough off in order to guard against drives.

here's the thing: players do have to guard him out at 3. in '11-'12, 'reke was hitting one out of every five three-pointers. an opposing defense likes those odds. last season, he hit one out of every three three-pointers. opposing defenses like those odds considerably less. it's nearly the same percentage that manu ginobili has shot from three for much of his career. and really, ginobili and evans have a similar style of play. each has a strong rim attack and changes the complexion of a single game simply by being on the court, and forcing a defense to honor their dribble drive. even if evans tops out as a ginobili-styled combo guard, you've still got a game-changing talent, but one that functions in a secondary role, which is exactly as it should be for evans when paired with demarcus cousins...

edit: and, for the record, as a career 15/4/4 guy with a serious injury history, ginobili made $14 million this season, $13 million the season before that, and $12 million the season before that...

 

[Gary]

If tyreke can improve his 18-20 foot jumper to just average, and actually take it when given to him, it will completely change his game. The problem that he had the last two years was that defenders played 5+ feet off of him and he wouldn't take the shot. Toward the end of the season he did, and even though he was shooting better it was still not fantastic, defenders had to react to it.

If he can add a stop and pop or floater (instead of driving into two defenders) he will shoot to the top of SG's. Granted there are some instincts that have to be overcome, but coaching can develop that.

It's not going to take much for Evans to become a star in the league. He knows what he has to work on. He could be a game changing talent if he got those stop and pop, and a legit 3pt shot. With his ability to drive to the hoop and a 3pt shot he would be almost un-guardable.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

You really believe that Tyreke is a game changing talent? Really? Tyreke is not the first or second option on a title contender. He probably isn't the first of second option on a playoff team.

Maybe if you're just staring at a boxscore, yes, he's not a 1st/2nd option on a championship contender. He's also regressed for four years straight, is a ballhog, etc. etc.

However, if you actually watch Tyreke's game and what his talent is, it would be clear to you that he's got the type of game that some of the best players in the game do. As in, big, physical, to-the-rim type of game. If you were watching you would see his last two seasons were absolutely wasted being jerked around; told to play off-the-ball, play as a SF, spot up in the corner, watch as garbage scrubs get isolation opportunities, etc. He was never given a shot to develop his most successful talent: operate as the lead guard in an offense.

People bash Tyreke's decisionmaking. Let me ask you this: do you think it Tyreke was given a shot to be the #1 perimeter option, with roleplayers surrounding him and consistent roles established, that it wouldn't be better than it is? He hasn't been comfortable in a role since his rookie year. And he hasn't been able to develop his strongest talent since that year, hence the perceived regression. No lead guard has been able to develop his decision-making without trial and error. Unfortunately, ever since Tyreke was taken out of that role, his decisionmaking never developed.

Critics will point out that Tyreke got to dominate the ball that year. Well, no. I suggest you go back and watch some of the games from his rookie year. Beno ran that offense pretty well. Lets put it this way: in Tyreke's rookie year, with him as the center of the offense and with almost zero NBA talent surrounding him, the Kings put up a 102.4 offensive efficiency. This year, with Isaiah Thomas and Demarcus Cousins in the lineup, with an improved Jason Thompson and an improved bench, the Kings put up a 103.0 offensive efficiency. Basically, the Kings scored a measly .6 more points per 100 possessions with the Smart-styled offense and more talent than they did with a Tyreke-centric offense and zero surrounding talent. Barely over half of a point!

And please don't tell me that teams "figured Tyreke out". It didn't take an entire year for teams to start sagging off Tyreke. Teams were already doing it in his rookie year. The question is, what changed? Defenses are still guarding Tyreke the same way but his production is way down. The only sensible solution is that it as a byproduct of coaching boneheadedness, Tyreke's role in the offense changed from lead guard, to... well I don't even know how to describe how Smart was using Tyreke.

Keith Smart has a reputation for career suicide. I think what he did to Tyreke was his finest screwjob yet. ANY competent coach with a rebuilding team would try to design an offense that developed their players' strongest talents. For Tyreke, that is as a lead guard. Unfortunately we were stuck with the brainless fool and lost two years off of Tyreke's development.

 

[macadocious]

It's not going to take much for Evans to become a star in the league. He knows what he has to work on. He could be a game changing talent if he got those stop and pop, and a legit 3pt shot. With his ability to drive to the hoop and a 3pt shot he would be almost un-guardable.

Is your position that he cannot do that?

 

[Gary]

here's the thing: players do have to guard him out at 3. in '11-'12, 'reke was hitting one out of every five three-pointers. an opposing defense likes those odds. last season, he hit one out of every three three-pointers. opposing defenses like those odds considerably less. it's nearly the same percentage that manu ginobili has shot from three for much of his career. and really, ginobili and evans have a similar style of play. each has a strong rim attack and changes the complexion of a single game simply by being on the court, and forcing a defense to honor their dribble drive. even if evans tops out as a ginobili-styled combo guard, you've still got a game-changing talent, but one that functions in a secondary role, which is exactly as it should be for evans when paired with demarcus cousins...

He didn't shoot it enough, and his 3pt shot was not as good when he would hold it then shoot. I am sure there is some kind of stat out there to prove it. I am just going off of memory of watching games. I don't recall defenses stick to him when he stood beyond the 3pt line. Even with 33% 3pt shot.

 

[Gary]

Is your position that he cannot do that?

Not sure. I was impressed towards the end of last year, but he's been in the league for four years now. So who knows. It's not worth 12mil a year to me in order to find out though. If he had that consistent 3pt shot (where he put up like 5 a game on average while shooting 38%+ to go along with the game he has now) then max the guy out.

 

[macadocious]

Not sure. I was impressed towards the end of last year, but he's been in the league for four years now. So who knows. It's not worth 12mil a year to me in order to find out though. If he had that consistent 3pt shot (where he put up like 5 a game on average while shooting 38%+ to go along with the game he has now) then max the guy out.

You have gone from one extreme to the next.

We have an elite defender and now an elite defensive coach. We have an elite ball handler and finisher at the rim. We have an average passer, who has show signs of being an above average passer. We have an average 3 point shooter and a below average mid range jump shooter.

Given a system, full minutes (34-36 per game) at SG he can average 16 4 and 4, shoot high 40% from 2, mid to low 30's from 3, make better decisions with the ball and lock down the opposing teams best guard, we have a guy who is worth 10-12 MM all day long.

 

[rainmaker]

He didn't shoot it enough, and his 3pt shot was not as good when he would hold it then shoot. I am sure there is some kind of stat out there to prove it. I am just going off of memory of watching games. I don't recall defenses stick to him when he stood beyond the 3pt line. Even with 33% 3pt shot.

Dude, look at SA defending Wade and Lebron, and a Wade who has regularly shot below 33% from 3. He doesn't need to be a 40% 3pt shooter to have success. The elite penetrators have gotten it done without great 3pt shooting, as they're elite at penetrating, a sought after skill in this league. Reke is a better shooter now than at 20 when he had a completely broken jumper yet still got to the rim regularly.

And here's what you and the anti Reke crowd miss. When you have a Wade, a Rose, a Westbrook, a Parker who aren't great 3pt shooters but have adequate jumpers(Parker's much improved), the key is SURROUNDING them with 3pt shooters. That's where you get your space to operate. It causes the defense to pick their poison, either stick to the shooters which opens lanes, or play off shooters which opens up the 3 for the role players.

Some of you are concentrating far too much on Reke's shooting. It just has to be adequate, and he's well on his way. It's not about the 3 ball. It's amazing how some of you don't understand how top teams are built, an elite penetrator along side preferably a post threat, surrounded by shooters. Or, in the Wade/Lebron or WB/Durant mold, two ball dominant players who can create regularly in iso situations, surrounded by shooters. It's not WB spreading the floor for Durant when Durant iso's. It's not the Wade, Rose, Westbrook, Parker types who's main responsibility is to spread the floor with near 40% 3pt shooting. That's the job of the 3-6M role players, which Petrie was crap at acquiring.

And for how sexy the shooting is of Curry/Klay, it was their total lack of an ability to get in the paint which was their downfall. You need someone who can penetrate. You need someone who causes defenses to switch. And when that guy gets in the lane, he's either got a lane to the rim or open shooters spotted up.

 

[Padrino]

He didn't shoot it enough, and his 3pt shot was not as good when he would hold it then shoot. I am sure there is some kind of stat out there to prove it. I am just going off of memory of watching games. I don't recall defenses stick to him when he stood beyond the 3pt line. Even with 33% 3pt shot.

hahahahaha, oh right, because if gary doesn't see it, it must not have happened...

right as the video opens, we see the bulls overplay tyreke at the 3-pt. line on a couple of occasions, and he blows by for a layup both times. at :27, he catches a pass behind the 3-pt. line, luol deng attempts to meet him, and 'reke blows by him again. at :50, noah gets caught on a switch, and doesn't honor 'reke's outside shot. he drills a long two. at 2:52, nate robinson is all over tyreke, but 'reke recognizes the mismatch and sticks a mid-range jumper in robinson's face (and off-the-dribble, i might add, a shot that everyone wants 'reke to furter develop)...

at 3:05, deng is pressuring 'reke well behind the 3-pt. line, clearly honoring the 3-pt shot, then drops back a step in anticipation of a 'reke drive, but suffers the indignity of choosing incorrectly, watching as 'reke sticks a step-back 3-pointer (also off-the-dribble). at 3:18, deng attempts to close out 'reke on another possible 3-pointer, and 'reke takes advantage of the overplay, going to the rim with authority. that's the kind of versatility that makes tyreke a potential game changer, when he confounds a defense by himself. and there are additional examples towards the end of the video, as well as throughout the rest of the season. but i feel as if i've sufficiently made my point...

make no mistake, gary, it's precisely because he's improved his 3-pt. shot that these kind of opportunities present themselves. and it ain't like the bulls are a poor defensive team, either. truth be told, that whole video is an incredible example of what a team can do with 'reke as it's 2nd best player. his decision-making is vastly improved, as is his court vision, as has his jump shooting. the examples are right in front of you, if you're willing to see them. if demar derozan can snag an extension worth $10 million a year, don't be surprised to see tyreke signed (or re-signed) for $10-12 million a year. it's hardly out of the realm of smart spending to do so...

 

[rainmaker]

It's amazing to me the same people who say Reke doesn't shoot enough 3's and can't have success without shooting considerably better than 33% from three are the same ones who'd trade Reke for Rubio. Would you also tell Rubio he doesn't shoot enough 3's? And how can Rubio possibly have success with a broken jumper?

Simple. They recognize the talent of a guy like Rubio and come to the conclusions a 3pt shot isn't needed, yet ignore what Reke brings to the table and concentrate on his 3pt shooting. Stems from an agenda against their own players. Reality is Reke's shortcommings as a player, not being a 38-40% 3pt shooters but an elite pentrator is not nearly as difficult to work with when you surround him with shooters. It's much tougher to have the shooters and attempt to find someone who can penetrate to create open jumpers for them.

 

[Gary]

Dude, look at SA defending Wade and Lebron, and a Wade who has regularly shot below 33% from 3. He doesn't need to be a 40% 3pt shooter to have success. The elite penetrators have gotten it done without great 3pt shooting, as they're elite at penetrating, a sought after skill in this league. Reke is a better shooter now than at 20 when he had a completely broken jumper yet still got to the rim regularly.

And here's what you and the anti Reke crowd miss. When you have a Wade, a Rose, a Westbrook, a Parker who aren't great 3pt shooters but have adequate jumpers(Parker's much improved), the key is SURROUNDING them with 3pt shooters. That's where you get your space to operate. It causes the defense to pick their poison, either stick to the shooters which opens lanes, or play off shooters which opens up the 3 for the role players.

Some of you are concentrating far too much on Reke's shooting. It just has to be adequate, and he's well on his way. It's not about the 3 ball. It's amazing how some of you don't understand how top teams are built, an elite penetrator along side preferably a post threat, surrounded by shooters. Or, in the Wade/Lebron or WB/Durant mold, two ball dominant players who can create regularly in iso situations, surrounded by shooters. It's not WB spreading the floor for Durant when Durant iso's. It's not the Wade, Rose, Westbrook, Parker types who's main responsibility is to spread the floor with near 40% 3pt shooting. That's the job of the 3-6M role players, which Petrie was crap at acquiring.

And for how sexy the shooting is of Curry/Klay, it was their total lack of an ability to get in the paint which was their downfall. You need someone who can penetrate. You need someone who causes defenses to switch. And when that guy gets in the lane, he's either got a lane to the rim or open shooters spotted up.

Evans is not Wade or LeBron or Westbrook or Rose or any other all-star/elite NBA talent. Not to mention I would rather Evans work on his 3pt shot than not. That would put Evans in a whole other class if he had that 3pt shot.

the part I agree with you though is at this point we DO need to surround Evans with 3pt shooters.

 

[Gary]

That one video tells the entire story right? Seriously man. Don't post a highlight video or whatever that is and say that's how every team guards him all the time. I should have put in there "consistently" because you're right, he does not have the defender slough off 100% of the time, but more times then not the defense is not going to respect Evans 3pt shot at this point. Why defend a player that far out that;
A) does not shoot a lot of 3pt shots
B) of the 3pt shots he shoots he does not make a whole lot of them

Go check out some of the game threads from last year. A common theme is "the opposing D is packing the paint because we don't have a 3pt threat", and that can take away from Reke's inside drive game.

 

[Gary]

It's amazing to me the same people who say Reke doesn't shoot enough 3's and can't have success without shooting considerably better than 33% from three are the same ones who'd trade Reke for Rubio. Would you also tell Rubio he doesn't shoot enough 3's? And how can Rubio possibly have success with a broken jumper?

Simple. They recognize the talent of a guy like Rubio and come to the conclusions a 3pt shot isn't needed, yet ignore what Reke brings to the table and concentrate on his 3pt shooting. Stems from an agenda against their own players. Reality is Reke's shortcommings as a player, not being a 38-40% 3pt shooters but an elite pentrator is not nearly as difficult to work with when you surround him with shooters. It's much tougher to have the shooters and attempt to find someone who can penetrate to create open jumpers for them.

They play different positions. Not to mention my whole argument about this a few years ago was based off of the team needs, which was a PG, because we had K-Mart at SG.

 

[Kingster]

Maybe if you're just staring at a boxscore, yes, he's not a 1st/2nd option on a championship contender. He's also regressed for four years straight, is a ballhog, etc. etc.

However, if you actually watch Tyreke's game and what his talent is, it would be clear to you that he's got the type of game that some of the best players in the game do. As in, big, physical, to-the-rim type of game. If you were watching you would see his last two seasons were absolutely wasted being jerked around; told to play off-the-ball, play as a SF, spot up in the corner, watch as garbage scrubs get isolation opportunities, etc. He was never given a shot to develop his most successful talent: operate as the lead guard in an offense.

People bash Tyreke's decisionmaking. Let me ask you this: do you think it Tyreke was given a shot to be the #1 perimeter option, with roleplayers surrounding him and consistent roles established, that it wouldn't be better than it is? He hasn't been comfortable in a role since his rookie year. And he hasn't been able to develop his strongest talent since that year, hence the perceived regression. No lead guard has been able to develop his decision-making without trial and error. Unfortunately, ever since Tyreke was taken out of that role, his decisionmaking never developed.
Critics will point out that Tyreke got to dominate the ball that year. Well, no. I suggest you go back and watch some of the games from his rookie year. Beno ran that offense pretty well. Lets put it this way: in Tyreke's rookie year, with him as the center of the offense and with almost zero NBA talent surrounding him, the Kings put up a 102.4 offensive efficiency. This year, with Isaiah Thomas and Demarcus Cousins in the lineup, with an improved Jason Thompson and an improved bench, the Kings put up a 103.0 offensive efficiency. Basically, the Kings scored a measly .6 more points per 100 possessions with the Smart-styled offense and more talent than they did with a Tyreke-centric offense and zero surrounding talent. Barely over half of a point!

And please don't tell me that teams "figured Tyreke out". It didn't take an entire year for teams to start sagging off Tyreke. Teams were already doing it in his rookie year. The question is, what changed? Defenses are still guarding Tyreke the same way but his production is way down. The only sensible solution is that it as a byproduct of coaching boneheadedness, Tyreke's role in the offense changed from lead guard, to... well I don't even know how to describe how Smart was using Tyreke.

Keith Smart has a reputation for career suicide. I think what he did to Tyreke was his finest screwjob yet. ANY competent coach with a rebuilding team would try to design an offense that developed their players' strongest talents. For Tyreke, that is as a lead guard. Unfortunately we were stuck with the brainless fool and lost two years off of Tyreke's development.

He makes poor decisions at running a simple fast break. I don't see how different coaches and different role players around him remotely affect running a fast break. If you want an insight into BBIQ for a guard look at him when he's not in a structured offense. It's a lot more telling than when the drama is prescripted.

 

[Padrino]

That one video tells the entire story right? Seriously man. Don't post a highlight video or whatever that is and say that's how every team guards him all the time. I should have put in there "consistently" because you're right, he does not have the defender slough off 100% of the time, but more times then not the defense is not going to respect Evans 3pt shot at this point. Why defend a player that far out that;
A) does not shoot a lot of 3pt shots
B) of the 3pt shots he shoots he does not make a whole lot of them

Go check out some of the game threads from last year. A common theme is "the opposing D is packing the paint because we don't have a 3pt threat", and that can take away from Reke's inside drive game.

no, that video does not tell the entire story, but i selected that video because it does tell the following story: one of the strongest defensive teams in the nba was flummoxed by tyreke evans, and he exploited their inability to guard him time and again, to the tune of 26 pts (11-13 shooting), 7 asts, 5 rebs, 3 stls, against only 2 turnovers. that is a worthy point, unlike your points a and b, which are confounding. why should tyreke be shooting a lot of 3-pointers? it's not evans' job to pretend he's marcus thornton. it's his job to hit the occasional 3 at an acceptable rate in order to create enough space for his dribble drive to have sustained success. and in a paltry 31 mpg this last season, that was the case. beyond that, what does it even mean to make "a whole lot of them" to you? i'm asking seriously, because you seem to be under the impression that the majority of the nba's guards shoot above 40% from 3...

in your response to rainmaker's post, you state that "Evans is not Wade or LeBron or Westbrook or Rose or any other all-star/elite NBA talent." only one of those guys touched 40% from 3 this last season, and he's the best player in the game. in '12-'13, lebron james shot a shade under 41% from 3, dwayne wade shot 26% from 3, russell westbrook shot 32% from 3, and in an abbreviated '11-'12 season, derrick rose shot 32% from 3. so, except for the best player in the entire league, tyreke evans shot better from 3 than all of the players you claim he's not as good as, yet you insist that he needs to focus on shooting more 3's, even though he's clearly better-suited to the rim attack that he's known for? you sound about as bad as keith smart...

by your logic, tyreke evans needs to be an elite penetrator, a dead-eye from 3, with the court vision of ricky rubio just to earn $12 million a season. you should probably temper your expectations, because they are not grounded in any kind of nba reality. evans has the potential to become a dwayne wade-type of combo guard, and this last season he already shot better from three than wade ever has. even if 'reke topped out as a manu ginobili-type of utility guard, that would still be worth at least $12 million a season...

 

[Padrino]

He makes poor decisions at running a simple fast break. I don't see how different coaches and different role players around him remotely affect running a fast break. If you want an insight into BBIQ for a guard look at him when he's not in a structured offense. It's a lot more telling than when the drama is prescripted.

i like how you trot out every tired criticism of tyreke that you can think of in these kinds of conversations. you yourself have admitted that tyreke is improving on the break. the improvement is obvious, so i suppose you'd have to admit it at some point. i and others have posted countless video examples to that effect in countless threads. i don't know why you're deciding that now's the time to double-back on an old criticism, as if you're trying to prove that the world is flat. the simple act of writing it doesn't actually make it true, friend. it's not. 'reke botches the occasional fast break, as does every player in the league. at the end of a do-or-die nba finals game 6, lebron james ran a one-on-one fast break against manu ginobili about as poorly as anyone could run such a fast break. it happens to the best of 'em. get over it...

 

[Gary]

no, that video does not tell the entire story, but i selected that video because it does tell the following story: one of the strongest defensive teams in the nba was flummoxed by tyreke evans, and he exploited their inability to guard him time and again, to the tune of 26 pts (11-13 shooting), 7 asts, 5 rebs, 3 stls, against only 2 turnovers. that is a worthy point, unlike your points a and b, which are confounding. why should tyreke be shooting a lot of 3-pointers? it's not evans' job to pretend he's marcus thornton. it's his job to hit the occasional 3 at an acceptable rate in order to create enough space for his dribble drive to have sustained success. and in a paltry 31 mpg this last season, that was the case. beyond that, what does it even mean to make "a whole lot of them" to you? i'm asking seriously, because you seem to be under the impression that the majority of the nba's guards shoot above 40% from 3...

in your response to rainmaker's post, you state that "Evans is not Wade or LeBron or Westbrook or Rose or any other all-star/elite NBA talent." only one of those guys touched 40% from 3 this last season, and he's the best player in the game. in '12-'13, lebron james shot a shade under 41% from 3, dwayne wade shot 26% from 3, russell westbrook shot 32% from 3, and in an abbreviated '11-'12 season, derrick rose shot 32% from 3. so, except for the best player in the entire league, tyreke evans shot better from 3 than all of the players you claim he's not as good as, yet you insist that he needs to focus on shooting more 3's, even though he's clearly better-suited to the rim attack that he's known for? you sound about as bad as keith smart...

by your logic, tyreke evans needs to be an elite penetrator, a dead-eye from 3, with the court vision of ricky rubio just to earn $12 million a season. you should probably temper your expectations, because they are not grounded in any kind of nba reality. evans has the potential to become a dwayne wade-type of combo guard, and this last season he already shot better from three than wade ever has. even if 'reke topped out as a manu ginobili-type of utility guard, that would still be worth at least $12 million a season...

Wow... just wow... OK... You seriously need to stop right now lol. I know you said "type" in there but come on.. Evans will never be Wade, Evans is not worth 12mil a year, Evans is not even an all-star. I imagine that if you were the coach of the Kings you would still force the issue that Evans is a PG? Evans does not need to work on a 3pt shot? He can just be a one dimensional player and continue to succeed? (if you call what he has done the last couple years succeeding). Please..... I am 100% wrong in your eyes because I want Evans to be able to shoot a three point shot.. good god.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

If tyreke can improve his 18-20 foot jumper to just average, and actually take it when given to him, it will completely change his game. The problem that he had the last two years was that defenders played 5+ feet off of him and he wouldn't take the shot. Toward the end of the season he did, and even though he was shooting better it was still not fantastic, defenders had to react to it.

If he can add a stop and pop or floater (instead of driving into two defenders) he will shoot to the top of SG's. Granted there are some instincts that have to be overcome, but coaching can develop that.

I don't need to play the "if" game. I make Gary's cap of $9.5M my starting offer, right now, and I'm probably willing to go up to $12M to re-sign Evans. That's what I think that Evans is worth, right now, in Sacramento (that may not be his value in another market, but the Kings don't play in another market, so it's moot), even if he doesn't get any better than he is right now.

Why? Because he's going to be 24 years old on opening night, that's why. And, in three years, when Kobe Bryant, Ray Allen and Manu Ginobili are retired, when Dwyane Wade, Joe Johnson and Jamal Crawford are used-up husks of their former selves (when, not if), when J.R. Smith, Monta Ellis and DeMar DeRozan's game falls off the face of the earth faster than my double-main man, Gerald Wallace (when, not if, you watch what I tell you), Evans is going to be a Top 5 SG in the league, even if he doesn't ever improve on his jumper, and he's going to be just entering his physical prime.

Like I said, I don't need to play the "if" game: I hear one side saying, "If Evans develops a jumper, he'll be an All-Star." Well, what if he doesn't? I still keep him. I hear the other side say, "If we can get a star guard in the draft, we won't need Evans." Well, what if we can't? Then, how'd that gamble work out for us? Evans, for his career, is (rounded up) 18/5/5, on 45 percent shooting. In the "worst" season of his career, his first as a full-time SG, he shot career highs from the field, and from deep. I'll take that, as-is, over any unknown quantity. No "ifs" required.

 

[VF21]

Not sure. I was impressed towards the end of last year, but he's been in the league for four years now. So who knows. It's not worth 12mil a year to me in order to find out though. If he had that consistent 3pt shot (where he put up like 5 a game on average while shooting 38%+ to go along with the game he has now) then max the guy out.

Yes, he's been in the league for four years and, despite some of the worst coaching in the history of the NBA, he hasn't lost heart and he hasn't given up on the Kings. That's worth quite a bit in my book, as is the fact he has accepted whatever ridiculous role he has been forced into and tried his best to make it work.

Evans isn't a cancer; he's a player who has been used improperly, often without any kind of real guidance. Let's see what he can do with the knowledge that the ownership and coaching staff are on his side.

 

[Gary]

Yes, he's been in the league for four years and, despite some of the worst coaching in the history of the NBA, he hasn't lost heart and he hasn't given up on the Kings. That's worth quite a bit in my book, as is the fact he has accepted whatever ridiculous role he has been forced into and tried his best to make it work.

Evans isn't a cancer; he's a player who has been used improperly, often without any kind of real guidance. Let's see what he can do with the knowledge that the ownership and coaching staff are on his side.

Nobody ever said he was a cancer. As a person I am sure he's a great guy too. I am sure he's been used wrong as well. The only thing I have agreed with, in regards to coaching, was when Smart took him off PG.

I WANT Evans back on the Kings this year. But not at a 8 digit salary. Bad coaching or not he has not earned that type of Salary.

 

[Kingster]

i like how you trot out every tired criticism of tyreke that you can think of in these kinds of conversations. you yourself have admitted that tyreke is improving on the break. the improvement is obvious, so i suppose you'd have to admit it at some point. i and others have posted countless video examples to that effect in countless threads. i don't know why you're deciding that now's the time to double-back on an old criticism, as if you're trying to prove that the world is flat. the simple act of writing it doesn't actually make it true, friend. it's not. 'reke botches the occasional fast break, as does every player in the league. at the end of a do-or-die nba finals game 6, lebron james ran a one-on-one fast break against manu ginobili about as poorly as anyone could run such a fast break. it happens to the best of 'em. get over it...

No, I haven't said Tyeke is improving on the break. I've said repeatedly that the proof of his inability to be a pg is his inability to run a break after several years of experience in the NBA. That's indicative of low BBIQ. When I evaluate guards I look at how they react and perform in free-flowing situations like fast breaks. Tyreke is in the bottom tier. He can't process the information fast enough to know when he should pass or drive.

 

[Padrino]

Wow... just wow... OK... You seriously need to stop right now lol. I know you said "type" in there but come on.. Evans will never be Wade, Evans is not worth 12mil a year, Evans is not even an all-star. I imagine that if you were the coach of the Kings you would still force the issue that Evans is a PG? Evans does not need to work on a 3pt shot? He can just be a one dimensional player and continue to succeed? (if you call what he has done the last couple years succeeding). Please..... I am 100% wrong in your eyes because I want Evans to be able to shoot a three point shot.. good god.

no, go back and read, sir. i have not once said that evans does not need to work on his 3-point shot. i hope he continues to improve his shot. i think it is entirely within the realm of possibility that he could become a 36-38% 3-point shooter, which is wholly acceptable for a guard of his particular skill set. what i take issue with is that, when evidence is presented that counters your assertions, you double down on tired platitudes that tyreke will "never be" this or that he'll "never be" that without presenting a single cogent thought as to why you believe so. both you and kingster have this terribly bad habit of believing that simply writing something somehow makes it true...

so i'll ask you directly: why do you think that tyreke evans "will never" achieve the kind of success that wade has? because he hasn't done it yet? your logic is always so confusing. just because evans hasn't become an all-star yet does not mean he cannot become an all-star. that is among the weakest arguments i've yet heard from you. there would be no all-stars if that were the case. more to the point, what does dwayne wade do on the court that tyreke does not? give me tangibles. i'll give you a bunch:

'reke has improved his decision-making. he's an improved defender, and has the physical gifts to continue to improve on that side of the ball. he's improved his 3-point shot, and there is quite a lot of video evidence that suggests it's made it easier for him to score. he's improved his off-the-ball play, which also opens up his game. he's becoming so versatile as an offensive weapon. he will likely never be quite the scorer that wade is, but he's as good a passer and rebounder as wade is for a SG. he's as fierce in getting to the rim as wade. he's as efficient at the rim as wade. he's also a better 3-point shooter already. he's not as turnover prone as wade was early in his career...

with increased minutes and an improved coaching staff that properly utilizes his talents, why can't tyreke become an all-star of wade's caliber? i've given you a great many reasons why he can. he may or may not become the player i hope he will, but there is plenty of evidence that suggests his talent can grow into an all-star's pedigree. all you've said is "evans will never be wade," and that is hardly a convincing argument...

 

[Gary]

I am going to keep the rest of my posts civil so please do the same. This is JUST a discussion with no ill will because I disagree..

In regard to your question about Reke never obtaining "Wade Status"... After a few years of seeing someone I tend to get an idea of what they can and what they can't do. This is how I am... Someone else may see things a different way which I am sure you are one of those people. There is no problem with that at all. I was a fan of Shelden Williams coming out of college. I was looking for him to be a player that could grab 10 boards and put up about 15ppg and a block or two. After a couple years I saw that would probably not happen. After Evans first year I was thinking he could be a great guard and was finally OK with Evans replacing Martin (Martin was my favorite King). Just as long as Evans played SG

Anyhow, after a few years my expectations have lowered. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

No, I haven't said Tyeke is improving on the break. I've said repeatedly that the proof of his inability to be a pg is his inability to run a break after several years of experience in the NBA. That's indicative of low BBIQ. When I evaluate guards I look at how they react and perform in free-flowing situations like fast breaks. Tyreke is in the bottom tier. He can't process the information fast enough to know when he should pass or drive.

I'm going to need some proof regarding this because I frankly didn't see it. His decisionmaking on the break has been fine. He's prone to brain farts, sure, but thats liveable. I'd just hazard a guess and say 80% of the time he makes the correct decision on the fast break. You can go look up Synergy footage if you want to convince me otherwise.

Evans is not Wade or LeBron or Westbrook or Rose or any other all-star/elite NBA talent. Not to mention I would rather Evans work on his 3pt shot than not. That would put Evans in a whole other class if he had that 3pt shot.

Evans has proven he has the same talent at getting to the rim as any of those guys. Go look up his attempts around the rim and his assisted % on those attempts. Compare it with any of those guys.

It boggles my mind how blind people are to what Evans can actually do at an elite level. Is he the player that Lebron/Wade/Westbrook/Rose are right now? No! But that takes DEVELOPMENT. And Evans has shown he has the same type of talent to get to the rim as any of them. Thats the key building block. The foundation is there, but the organization as a whole has utterly failed in building upon that foundation.

 

[Padrino]

No, I haven't said Tyeke is improving on the break. I've said repeatedly that the proof of his inability to be a pg is his inability to run a break after several years of experience in the NBA. That's indicative of low BBIQ. When I evaluate guards I look at how they react and perform in free-flowing situations like fast breaks. Tyreke is in the bottom tier. He can't process the information fast enough to know when he should pass or drive.

and you've successfully proved the point i've made above regarding your affinity for believing that writing the things you write is enough to make them true. the bolded statement above is patently false. let's go back to the video evidence, and it's the same exact one i posted just a bit ago, if you had been interested enough in reality to watch it:

at 1:18, tyreke "process[es] the information fast enough" to exploit his mismatch against vladimir radmanovic on the break. at 1:45, tyreke "process[es] the information fast enough" to pass the ball to marcus thornton on the break for an easy layup. at 2:28, tyreke "process[es] the information fast enough" to hit a streaking cole aldrich on the break with a nice little shovel pass for the dunk. at 2:50, tyreke "process[es] the information fast enough" to determine that he can't beat the bulls' transition D on the break, and dribbles to a nice spot on the court where his mismatch against nate robinson results in a mid-range jumper. at 3:32, tyreke "process[es] the information fast enough" to determine that he can overpower marco belinelli on the break for the layup and 1. at 3:47, tyreke "process[es] the information fast enough" to hit an open isaiah thomas on the break for three. that's six instances from a single game in which tyreke evans successfully exercised his BBIQ to run a fast break. 'reke was 11-13 in that game for 26 points. he had 7 assists. he had two turnovers. sounds to me like a player who can "process the information fast enough to know when he should pass or drive."



and before you counter that one game is not proof enough, these are professional ****ing basketball players we're talking about. it is not necessary for me to post 50 examples of a successfully-run tyreke evans fast break to prove my point. he's experienced enough to get repeat results. if he can get it done on the break against the bulls' stingy transition defense, he can get it done against anybody in the league. he doesn't need to be steve nash on the break, and it's okay if he makes mistakes from time to time, as all ball dominant guards do...

as for your general evaluation of guards, i find it terribly wanting. like, terribly. the fast break is a useful measurement of a guard's ability to run a fast break. nothing more. it doesn't tell you much of anything outside of that scenario. it's context-bound, and reveals little about how that player will perform in the halfcourt, on defense, in end-of-game situations, etc. it's not even the most useful measurement of a guard's basketball IQ, as it's more about reaction time than anything else...

 

[Padrino]

I am going to keep the rest of my posts civil so please do the same. This is JUST a discussion with no ill will because I disagree..

In regard to your question about Reke never obtaining "Wade Status"... After a few years of seeing someone I tend to get an idea of what they can and what they can't do. This is how I am... Someone else may see things a different way which I am sure you are one of those people. There is no problem with that at all. I was a fan of Shelden Williams coming out of college. I was looking for him to be a player that could grab 10 boards and put up about 15ppg and a block or two. After a couple years I saw that would probably not happen. After Evans first year I was thinking he could be a great guard and was finally OK with Evans replacing Martin (Martin was my favorite King). Just as long as Evans played SG

Anyhow, after a few years my expectations have lowered. Nothing wrong with that.

well that's fine. but you're not gonna have a particularly productive discussion regarding a player's potential with an argument consisting of "player X will never be like player Y because i say so. and hey, i have been wrong before, but still, take my word for it." a guy like shelden williams was pretty undersized for his position and never gained any traction in the nba. and, really, few were surprised given his diminutive stature and limited athleticism as an nba PF...

however, i'll gladly roll the dice on tyreke evans, who has already proven that he can be a guard with elite slashing talent in the nba. he has shown steady improvement over time despite a reduction in minutes, and stands to improve further under more ideal franchise conditions, now that the kings aren't run by a buncha monkeys...

 

[Darth Divac]

I am a big Tyreke fan, as many of you know...This improvement in his jumper is encouraging. I know we see it each offseason, he's practicing, blah blah blah, but this year he actually has a big improvement in 3PT% to back it up. If he keeps working on it, and checks down in the decision making department, than we may just see an All-Star year from 'Reke.

 

[Npliam]

sure. why not? players that can get to the rim at will, score at the rim with extreme efficiency, and who are properly utilized by their teams tend to help their teams get to the playoffs. they're often game changers. why would a 23-year-old guard who scores 15 ppg on 48% shooting from the field to go along with 4.5 rpg and 3.5 apg in a mere 31 mpg not be able to grow into a game changing talent?

Because you don't grow into that. You are that after your 4th year unless you are a big and usually by then you can tell.

Tyreke is a talented player and does some things very well. I look at him like Lamar Odom (not in his game, just his situation). When he is the best player of second best player on your team you aren't going to be a contender. When he is your 3rd best player he is really, really good.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Because you don't grow into that. You are that after your 4th year unless you are a big and usually by then you can tell...

Eh, game changing is probably more than a tad hyperbolic, but he'd hardly be the first player, or even the first guard, to develop into an All-Star after 5+ years in the league.

 

[Bricklayer]

Because you don't grow into that. You are that after your 4th year unless you are a big and usually by then you can tell.

Tyreke is a talented player and does some things very well. I look at him like Lamar Odom (not in his game, just his situation). When he is the best player of second best player on your team you aren't going to be a contender. When he is your 3rd best player he is really, really good.

The factor you are not taking into account is that due to putrid coaching and team construction he got roughly as many shots a game as JJ Reddick. If you take Brandon Roy and do that to him he looks like nothing special either. Difference is that Portland was not a team run by mental monkeys, and so they cleared his position out and gave him the ball.