Tyreke Jumpshot

[macadocious]

But it's not necessary. He's a restricted free agent. Why over pay just to over pay. Let someone sign him to an offer sheet then choose to match or not.

Well the argument would be, if he wants to stay and he will stay for $XXX and you would match that offer, why not just offer it to him and not worry if he is going to leave.

EDIT: I feel like people are forgetting we don't have a problem paying for good players, we have had a problem overpaying mediocre players.

 

[Bricklayer]

But it's not necessary. He's a restricted free agent. Why over pay just to over pay. Let someone sign him to an offer sheet then choose to match or not.

That's a fallback, not a mainline approach. When you play that game you fracture loyalty and run the risk of Eric Gordon type situations where the guy moves on in his heart, and then you drag him back. Reke is a better and more loyal guy than Eric Gordon, but its too important a relationship to damage while playing games.

 

[Section 101]

That's a fallback, not a mainline approach. When you play that game you fracture loyalty and run the risk of Eric Gordon type situations where the guy moves on in his heart, and then you drag him back. Reke is a better and more loyal guy than Eric Gordon, but its too important a relationship to damage while playing games.

I don't recall NO giving Gordon an offer. He went out and got a max contract offer they matched. He never wanted to go there in the first place with the trade. Batum is another one where the team matched, but the blazers let the market dictate the contract just like Gordon.

 

[Bricklayer]

I don't recall NO giving Gordon an offer. He went out and got a max contract offer they matched. He never wanted to go there in the first place with the trade. Batum is another one where the team matched, but the blazers let the market dictate the contract just like Gordon.

And in neither case did they come back with very happy players, or very successful locker rooms.

Using power in a negotiation is a sign that you have failed as a negotiator. Power is the stick you keep leaning in the corner for everybody to see. But your goal is to make the other guy want to sign your deal, not to encourage him to go off, construct a plan with a competitor where he begins to picture himself in another uniform and how it could work out, and then yank him back. When it comes to a core player, its worth $1mil to avoid that both for the player in question, and for the next one.

Reke and Cousins are Kings. You don't ever want to give them reason to think of themselves in any other way.

 

[macadocious]

And in neither case did they come back with very happy players, or very successful locker rooms.

Using power in a negotiation is a sign that you have failed as a negotiator. Power is the stick you keep leaning in the corner for everybody to see. But your goal is to make the other guy want to sign your deal, not to encourage him to go off, construct a plan with a competitor where he begins to picture himself in another uniform and how it could work out, and then yank him back. When it comes to a core player, its worth $1mil to avoid that both for the player in question, and for the next one.

Reke and Cousins are Kings. You don't ever want to give them reason to think of themselves in any other way.

This is the 3rd time Brick has said this, and he is correct for a 3rd time. We tend to forget these players are people, these players have also supported this community with possibly the worst 2 year ownership and FO run in recent NBA history. They deserve more than dollars and cents negotiations.

 

[Goo]

I think the team will improve and Evans will improve as well. But I still don't think his value is more than $8-9 mil. He's someone that can be replaced easier than what people around here think.

Please name one good 2 way player at 25yrs old as good as Reke for 8m that is not undersize and we have a good chance on signing. See I can play this game too.

 

[Section 101]

Please name one good 2 way player at 25yrs old as good as Reke for 8m that is not undersize and we have a good chance on signing. See I can play this game too.

And you just failed at the game. It wouldn't be finding a player at $8 mil it would be finding a player at $12 mil like people around here want to pay Evans. But I would rather have Kevin Martin or Tony Allen at $6 mil than Evans at $12 mil. I would take Teague or Calderon at $7-8 mil over Evans at $12 mil. Or go after a SF/PF like Iggy Millsap for the $10-12 mil range.

 

[Kingsfan23]

Part of the reason, despite the good will that I know new ownership may want to establish with Reke, why I don't think negotiations will go easy is because of the wide variety of opinion on Reke's true worth, as is evidenced by this board. Some feel as though he is a bonafide cornerstone piece whose true capabilities have been significantly hampered by the bad atmosphere. Others feel as though he is a disappointment who has statistically regressed since his R.O.Y campaign - a mere third or fourth cog in an elite team. This discrepancy even appears in Reke's own mind according to Napear. Grant has stated several times that he has heard Reke is seeking a large payday. with some players, it is easy to reach a consensus on what they should be paid, and that is not the case here.

 

[macadocious]

grant has stated several times that he has heard reke is seeking a large payday.

ldo

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

And you just failed at the game. It wouldn't be finding a player at $8 mil it would be finding a player at $12 mil like people around here want to pay Evans. But I would rather have Kevin Martin or Tony Allen at $6 mil than Evans at $12 mil. I would take Teague or Calderon at $7-8 mil over Evans at $12 mil. Or go after a SF/PF like Iggy Millsap for the $10-12 mil range.

Well then, I've got some bad news for you: in the first place, your estimation of the mentioned players' market value is probably more than a little off. And, in the second place, even supposing, for the sake of argument, that you're dead on, that would be their market value at large, not their value in the Kings market. Tony Allen might sign with another team for $6M. I doubt it, but he might. There's not a chance in hell that he would sign with Sacramento for $6M. Jeff Teague might re-sign in Atlanta for $8M. He might sign with Dallas for $8M. He won't sign with Sacramento for less than $11M, and you can take that to the bank. You still liking that deal?

Sacramento can't get good players for the same price that other teams can get them for. ****, we can't even get bad players for the same price that other teams can get them for, and it's past time that Kings Fans start accepting that.

 

[sdballer]

Well then, I've got some bad news for you: in the first place, your estimation of the mentioned players' market value is probably more than a little off. And, in the second place, even supposing, for the sake of argument, that you're dead on, that would be their market value at large, not their value in the Kings market. Tony Allen might sign with another team for $6M. I doubt it, but he might. There's not a chance in hell that he would sign with Sacramento for $6M. Jeff Teague might re-sign in Atlanta for $8M. He might sign with Dallas for $8M. He won't sign with Sacramento for less than $11M, and you can take that to the bank. You still liking that deal?

Sacramento can't get good players for the same price that other teams can get them for. ****, we can't even get bad players for the same price that other teams can get them for, and it's past time that Kings Fans start accepting that.

You don't need to give him the benefit of the doubt on his proposed scenario. Not only did he probably miss on those guys potential salaries for the next couple years, he missed the point that when they were at Reke's point in his career, small market teams (us in one case) gave guys salaries just like what he's proposing we shouldn't do since it would be too much.

Bottom line it's a pointless argument. He doesn't value Reke, we do and none of us can accurately predict what the final deal he receives will look like. My obvious hope is that we keep him at a reasonable deal, surround our core guys with less muppets and finally put these stupid debates to rest.

 

[mac]

You don't need to give him the benefit of the doubt on his proposed scenario. Not only did he probably miss on those guys potential salaries for the next couple years, he missed the point that when they were at Reke's point in his career, small market teams (us in one case) gave guys salaries just like what he's proposing we shouldn't do since it would be too much.

Bottom line it's a pointless argument. He doesn't value Reke, we do and none of us can accurately predict what the final deal he receives will look like. My obvious hope is that we keep him at a reasonable deal, surround our core guys with less muppets and finally put these stupid debates to rest.

It really simply boils down to what one's perceived value of Evans is. Section101 is very right in that you don't overpay for a guy when he's replaceable, and he believes that Evans is fairly replaceable. Conversely if you don't think he's replaceable its important not to "offend" him as Brick has said.

 

[ParniValjak]

It really simply boils down to what one's perceived value of Evans is. Section101 is very right in that you don't overpay for a guy when he's replaceable, and he believes that Evans is fairly replaceable. Conversely if you don't think he's replaceable its important not to "offend" him as Brick has said.

The point is that every player is replaceable but the true question is what are your genuine chances of replacing him with equal or better player? For us, the chances are very slim. It's no secret that Section 101 and Gary don't like Tyreke. His game goes against everything they believe on how basketball team should be constructed so they don't value him much at all.

Due to these agendas, they miss the very obvious point that there is more than one way to build a contender but that's not good enough because it is not their way

 

[Packt]

Are you saying Kings made mistake letting Smart go - at least he knew the real talent level of players on this team, right?

Opposing coaches knew the talent level on this team.

 

[mac]

The point is that every player is replaceable but the true question is what are your genuine chances of replacing him with equal or better player? For us, the chances are very slim. It's no secret that Section 101 and Gary don't like Tyreke. His game goes against everything they believe on how basketball team should be constructed so they don't value him much at all.

Due to these agendas, they miss the very obvious point that there is more than one way to build a contender but that's not good enough because it is not their way

Well sure every player is "replaceable", but at the heart of the issue is talent evaluation. If a person doesn't think Tyreke is very talented then to him Tyreke is more replaceable than to those who think he will be an all-star. To be fair Section101's analysis isn't all that off if you just look at Tyreke's stats over 4 years. If a company hasn't been performing all that well and you don't think the fundamental reasons behind that performance are going to be rectified then you don't pay a high price for its stock. You and me attribute Tyreke's "struggles" largely to poor coaching and being misused, and so to us there's no question that after a year or two under a good coach he will be well worth a contract over 10 million. And because we are sure of that we don't want to turn Evans away by telling him to go find someone willing to pay him more or waiting till he's a UFA, because he'd either cost more then or wouldn't be inclined to stay with us. Only time will tell who was right, and I'm hoping it'll be us

 

[Goo]

And you just failed at the game. It wouldn't be finding a player at $8 mil it would be finding a player at $12 mil like people around here want to pay Evans. But I would rather have Kevin Martin or Tony Allen at $6 mil than Evans at $12 mil. I would take Teague or Calderon at $7-8 mil over Evans at $12 mil. Or go after a SF/PF like Iggy Millsap for the $10-12 mil range.

Understood, at least now I understand you POV.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

And you just failed at the game. It wouldn't be finding a player at $8 mil it would be finding a player at $12 mil like people around here want to pay Evans. But I would rather have Kevin Martin or Tony Allen at $6 mil than Evans at $12 mil. I would take Teague or Calderon at $7-8 mil over Evans at $12 mil. Or go after a SF/PF like Iggy Millsap for the $10-12 mil range.

they are all mediocre talent, not game changing talent. all those players you listed are role players, not top 1,2 players on a team. this is the same philosophy the goof brothers took when they could have offered AK47 a bigger contract, instead they chose to take the cheap route, stacked a bunch of a cheaper players to fill the SF position. salmons? outlaw? james johnson? garcia? i believe thats at least 15 million in garbage players on 1 position. none of which could man the position properly.

 

[Section 101]

Well then, I've got some bad news for you: in the first place, your estimation of the mentioned players' market value is probably more than a little off. And, in the second place, even supposing, for the sake of argument, that you're dead on, that would be their market value at large, not their value in the Kings market. Tony Allen might sign with another team for $6M. I doubt it, but he might. There's not a chance in hell that he would sign with Sacramento for $6M. Jeff Teague might re-sign in Atlanta for $8M. He might sign with Dallas for $8M. He won't sign with Sacramento for less than $11M, and you can take that to the bank. You still liking that deal?

Sacramento can't get good players for the same price that other teams can get them for. ****, we can't even get bad players for the same price that other teams can get them for, and it's past time that Kings Fans start accepting that.

How did that work out for Bonzi Wells? Teams have to have cap money to pay the guys. If teams don't have the cap money then players choices are reduced.

 

[macadocious]

Bonzi was 31, and had a middling career with an above average year. Not even comparable.

 

[Gary]

It really simply boils down to what one's perceived value of Evans is. Section101 is very right in that you don't overpay for a guy when he's replaceable, and he believes that Evans is fairly replaceable. Conversely if you don't think he's replaceable its important not to "offend" him as Brick has said.

Evans is replaceable. In the short term that is... We would be a midget team for a while (unless we drafted a guy like MCW or something which I would be OK with) but in the long term I would like to have a plan going into the 2014 draft. The only caveat to that is it's going to be a good "big man" draft so would we want to go after a SG in a big man draft?

 

[Kingster]

And in neither case did they come back with very happy players, or very successful locker rooms.

Using power in a negotiation is a sign that you have failed as a negotiator. Power is the stick you keep leaning in the corner for everybody to see. But your goal is to make the other guy want to sign your deal, not to encourage him to go off, construct a plan with a competitor where he begins to picture himself in another uniform and how it could work out, and then yank him back. When it comes to a core player, its worth $1mil to avoid that both for the player in question, and for the next one.

Reke and Cousins are Kings. You don't ever want to give them reason to think of themselves in any other way.

So what would offer him? Before anybody else has come forward with an offer, what would you offer? Presumably, his agent is going to come in pretty high. $12 million? $13 million. $14 million. What is going to make Tyreke smile rather than Tyreke frown?

 

[Padrino]

Well then, I've got some bad news for you: in the first place, your estimation of the mentioned players' market value is probably more than a little off. And, in the second place, even supposing, for the sake of argument, that you're dead on, that would be their market value at large, not their value in the Kings market. Tony Allen might sign with another team for $6M. I doubt it, but he might. There's not a chance in hell that he would sign with Sacramento for $6M. Jeff Teague might re-sign in Atlanta for $8M. He might sign with Dallas for $8M. He won't sign with Sacramento for less than $11M, and you can take that to the bank. You still liking that deal?

Sacramento can't get good players for the same price that other teams can get them for. ****, we can't even get bad players for the same price that other teams can get them for, and it's past time that Kings Fans start accepting that.

THIS. if the kings were winning, the franchise might have more pull with free agents. if the team's culture was already established, if the greatest show on court was still in full swing, for example, the franchise might have more pull with free agents. but here's the brick wall of reality: they're a team coming off seven straight losing seasons. they've got a brand new owner, a rookie GM, a rookie head coach, and a young hothead in demarcus cousins at the center of the franchise. there's a new arena on the horizon, but the kings will be playing in rickety old sleep train arena for a few more seasons...

so who's gonna wanna come here for the $6-$8 million they can get elsewhere? if the kings target a particular free agent, they've gotta open up the wallet to get him. it will cost more than that player's general open market value. guaranteed. so, in my opinion, on july 1st the kings should offer tyreke evans no less than $11-$12 million in good faith, and then match up to $14 or $15 million if another team decides to get frisky with the kings' free agent. lord knows i'd rather have evans at $15 million than jeff teague at $11 million...

a losing team like the kings cannot afford to bleed talent, not if it hopes to win sometime in the next few years. otherwise, it's a hope and a prayer: maybe michael carter-williams will be good, maybe we'll be able to pick up another teams scraps, maybe we'll be able to trade a buncha overrated chuckers for something that helps this team win. that's no strategy worth pursuing, i don't care how many analytics guys you stuff in the front office...

 

[Kingster]

THIS. if the kings were winning, the franchise might have more pull with free agents. if the team's culture was already established, if the greatest show on court was still in full swing, for example, the franchise might have more pull with free agents. but here's the brick wall of reality: they're a team coming off seven straight losing seasons. they've got a brand new owner, a rookie GM, a rookie head coach, and a young hothead in demarcus cousins at the center of the franchise. there's a new arena on the horizon, but the kings will be playing in rickety old sleep train arena for a few more seasons...

so who's gonna wanna come here for the $6-$8 million they can get elsewhere? if the kings target a particular free agent, they've gotta open up the wallet to get him. it will cost more than that player's general open market value. guaranteed. so, in my opinion, on july 1st the kings should offer tyreke evans no less than $11-$12 million in good faith, and then match up to $14 or $15 million if another team decides to get frisky with the kings' free agent. lord knows i'd rather have evans at $15 million than jeff teague at $11 million...
a losing team like the kings cannot afford to bleed talent, not if it hopes to win sometime in the next few years. otherwise, it's a hope and a prayer: maybe michael carter-williams will be good, maybe we'll be able to pick up another teams scraps, maybe we'll be able to trade a buncha overrated chuckers for something that helps this team win. that's no strategy worth pursuing, i don't care how many analytics guys you stuff in the front office...

Holy moly. Well, I'll give you this, Padrino: At least you have the cajones to come out with a number, unlike some others on this board who blather on but never come out with actual numbers.

 

[Padrino]

Holy moly. Well, I'll give you this, Padrino: At least you have the cajones to come out with a number, unlike some others on this board who blather on but never come out with actual numbers.

well, for me, this argument is terribly obvious. on the one side is everybody who believes in tyreke evans' potential. on the other side are the usual suspects: yourself, section 101, gary, etc., who don't value tyreke evans the way i and others do. i'm just waiting for one of you to present a viable strategy for the future of this team. letting go a combo guard who is one of the best in the league at getting to the rim is hardly a worthy pursuit, whether you like tyreke's game or not...

personally, i see no strategy in which letting go of tyreke evans is a smart move. but, if there are theoretical choices that allow me to square myself with letting tyreke walk, then i certainly consider those options, though i would do so begrudgingly. for example, if andre iguodala is interested in signing with sacramento, then i consider letting tyreke walk. if i can swing a trade for rajon rondo, then i consider letting tyreke walk. but i am not letting tyreke walk for a less-than-sure thing in the draft, an MCW, a trey burke, a cj mccollum, etc. and i am certainly not putting my faith in isaiah thomas to fill in the hole left by tyreke. that's not good enough for me if i'm this team's GM, because i hate the hope-and-a-prayer strategy, especially when evans' talent is so readily apparent...

in my estimation, a small market franchise must take its destiny into its own hands. it can't act like it's los angeles or new york or boston or chicago or even dallas, the kind of places that players want to play via free agency, via the draft, and even via trade demand. you have to be proactive, you have to draft smart, and, perhaps most importantly, you have to spend the money. i consider tyreke evans to be a wise investment, because defense and a strong rim attack gets you into the playoffs. tyreke's already got the strong rim attack, and a coach like mike malone can squeeze even more out of 'reke, defensively...

further bolster the team's defense, add a couple off-the-ball shooters, center the kings around demarcus cousins, and they'll be over .500 in a season or two, and pushing towards the playoffs shortly after that. and, for the record, the kings need to be playoff-bound sooner rather than later. the new owners didn't pay waaaaaaaaaayyy over market value for this franchise to fail to put asses in the seats once the new arena is built. so i lock down cousins and evans long term, and i build around them intelligently, rather than haphazardly, as the previous regime did...

 

[Npliam]

they are all mediocre talent, not game changing talent. all those players you listed are role players, not top 1,2 players on a team. this is the same philosophy the goof brothers took when they could have offered AK47 a bigger contract, instead they chose to take the cheap route, stacked a bunch of a cheaper players to fill the SF position. salmons? outlaw? james johnson? garcia? i believe thats at least 15 million in garbage players on 1 position. none of which could man the position properly.

You really believe that Tyreke is a game changing talent? Really? Tyreke is not the first or second option on a title contender. He probably isn't the first of second option on a playoff team.

 

[Padrino]

You really believe that Tyreke is a game changing talent? Really? Tyreke is not the first or second option on a title contender. He probably isn't the first of second option on a playoff team.

sure. why not? players that can get to the rim at will, score at the rim with extreme efficiency, and who are properly utilized by their teams tend to help their teams get to the playoffs. they're often game changers. why would a 23-year-old guard who scores 15 ppg on 48% shooting from the field to go along with 4.5 rpg and 3.5 apg in a mere 31 mpg not be able to grow into a game changing talent?

 

[Gary]

I totally understand where Padrino is coming from. I just cant see Evans being worth as much as he says he is. We are almost talking max salary for a player that really hasn't done much while others that have that are in his draft class have and would be making less money than him. I'm talking a couple small market teams too. I don't want Evans to leave, but I don't want the Kings to pay him more than other players of his draft class/talent level either.

I know we don't have a Klay Thompson in the back of Evans, but we do have a serviceable guard named Marcus Thornton who could fill in. Plus, we had the worst D in the league so it's not like we are in jeopardy of going from a good defensive team to a bad one if he were to leave. I haven't been able to see out record without Evans over the last 2 to 2/12 years when MT starts where Evans would but I assume it's no worse than with Evans.

 

[Gary]

sure. why not? players that can get to the rim at will, score at the rim with extreme efficiency, and who are properly utilized by their teams tend to help their teams get to the playoffs. they're often game changers. why would a 23-year-old guard who scores 15 ppg on 48% shooting from the field to go along with 4.5 rpg and 3.5 apg in a mere 31 mpg not be able to grow into a game changing talent?

Bad coaching or not he really hasn't proved that he has this game changing talent as of yet. Could he be? Sure... Like you had said he has the skill to potentially do this if he could get an outside shot. If players have to guard him at 3pt land then it would be easier for him to get to the basket. They wouldn't give him the space he has out there now and slough off in order to guard against drives.

 

[macadocious]

If tyreke can improve his 18-20 foot jumper to just average, and actually take it when given to him, it will completely change his game. The problem that he had the last two years was that defenders played 5+ feet off of him and he wouldn't take the shot. Toward the end of the season he did, and even though he was shooting better it was still not fantastic, defenders had to react to it.

If he can add a stop and pop or floater (instead of driving into two defenders) he will shoot to the top of SG's. Granted there are some instincts that have to be overcome, but coaching can develop that.

 

[Spike]

You really believe that Tyreke is a game changing talent? Really? Tyreke is not the first or second option on a title contender. He probably isn't the first of second option on a playoff team.

I believe he is. Just because he was benched by Smart time and time again after successful 1st quarters rarely to be seen again does not make him a game changer. His ability to get to the rim is precisely what puts him in that category. We've seen scoring outbursts time and time again against good teams as well, only to have Reke ride the pine, inexplicably.

Jump shooters are easy to defend - just keep a guy in front. At his best, Evans disrupt the defense by creating the need for help. Someone has to rotate over to help, unless you have a good, lane-clogging big, which most teams don't.

Smart's strategy was to hide Evans at the 3 spot and keep the ball away for about half a year - do you think a coach with brains would have done the same? His misuse has been comical, and now the usual suspects are pointing to the results of this misuse as a lack of an ability to improve, but it's been argued that his per36 numbers have improved in spite of being jerked around.