Tyreke Evans will start from Day One

[AriesMar27]

But if you have players that can create their own shots and do it well, the focus won't be on Martin in the 4th quarter.

I think we now have 2 players on the roster that can create their own offence. Evans and Hawes can both get their shots off and don't need to rely on anyone to set them up. Come 4th quarter when the game needs to be close, these guys are our options and if they get double teamed as expected, their job is to find Martin for an open shot.

In the 4th quarter defences will focus on our most dangerous player and from what we are seeing so far with Evans and what we have seen so far with Hawes, in a couple of years time with more development these are our guys.

perhaps... and that would be cool if thats how it worked out. but if we are relying on a rookie who is possibly playing out of position to do all of that we are in bad shape this season. how many rookies have been able to do that though? most end up forcing the issue and turning the ball over. the pace of the nba is totally different than college ball. i guess we really wont know until the preseason starts.

 

[OnYouLikeGlue]

how come you and drboiffard dont get attacked by newbies? and wasnt i the first person that said that id rather have sergio starting at pg and got ambushed for it? all of a sudden people are getting praise for mentioning sergio when that ws the first thing that i did.




wheres kingsgurl881 and onyoulikeglue when you guys have your own opinions? okay im nitpicking again... not to be confused with nosepicking. not to get off topic but why is cherry picking called cherry picking in basketball?

I think hrdboild explained it best.

The thing about playing Evans at PG (and I'm just randomly choosing this topic instead of the 12 or so others discussing the same thing ) is that even if he isn't in traditional terms a PG, his primary strength is breaking down defense man-to-man and getting into the lane, and for that to happen he needs the ball in his hands. If you get a pass-first PG and move Evans to the SG spot, your PG is going to be handling the ball and Evans' most tangible strength on the basketball court has been neutralized. So if you're banking on Evans' becoming a star, than you really do have to go all-in with his style of play and give him the ball. Whether you call him a PG or a SG doesn't really matter. Call him a guard and be done with it. Regardless of who else is in the backcourt with him, he needs to be the primary ball-handler on offense, if not for the whole game, than at least for the fourth quarter.

Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, and Brandon Roy are all similar players who can create shots for themselves or for others but they need the ball in their hands to make their impact. None of them is a PG, and they've been paired up with more traditional PGs who become mostly spot shooters in their offense. Portland lets Blake share PG responsibilities throughout the game but they give Roy the ball to close the game. Cleveland and Miami do the same thing to a lesser extent. Kobe is different because he can still be effective as a jump-shooter, but even LA goes to a Kobe-dominated offense to close the game.

That's the type of player that Evans is. Whether he'll be as succesful as the afformentioned players depends on the extent to which he has the court vision, killer instinct, work ethic, and physical gifts to make it work. Those are all subjective and still developing. But my point is that having a player like that on the floor greatly diminishes the need for a traditional PG, regardless of what position you want to put them at. And the number of players that can do what they do succesfully in the NBA (basically score at will) is so small that you really have to thank your lucky stars if you're lucky enough to get one.

Whether or not Evans is technically the PG he plays best with the ball in his hands and he will be given every opportunity to show he can play the point because having him and Martin on the floor together is a matchup nightmare for other teams. He is so talented he needs to be on the floor a lot and I would rather have Evans and Martin than Sergio and Evans.

It just makes no sense to me for someone other than Tyreke to start. This team is not making the playoffs this year. Get all the young guys playing together as fast as possible to allow them to gel. I'm almost positive if JT and Hawes began the season last year as starters they would have been farther along by the end of the year.

Why bring someone along slowly when the team sucks?

 

[Chupacabra]

^ Exactly. Why on earth wouldnt you start a top 5 draft pick on a 17 win team?! Sergio Rodriguez instead of Tyreke Evans??? Thats crazy talk. All this talk about Sergio made me look up a bunch of clips of him. Hes only effective if he gets a screen every half court set. No ability to get into the lane by himself. If you have an average bball iq you know that the best way to attack the defense is to get penetration as far to the basket as possible. Which player has more ability to do this, Tyreke or Sergio? Thats not even discussing the defensive side which i wont even get into.

 

[Memphis_Fan]

First, welcome to the board!

You make some interesting points and I have a question... How much Kings ball have you watched, if any? Do you think Evans' game can work with Martin's?

If Evans can get us rebounds and play some defense we're already much better off than we were last year.

Sorry it took so long to respond. I was trying to watch the summer league game and it was giving me fits.

I haven't watched a lot of Kings basketball. Mostly have followed Derrick Rose in Chicago. I am sort of familiar with Martin's game though. I know he's weak defensively, has a decent set shot and can get to the line. You will have two players that like going to the bucket in the same back court with Evans and Martin. I am not sure how this will work out though. Jefferson, and Carter seemed to do OK although we are talking shooting guard and small forward.

Evans will give you defense though against guards closer to his size. There were instances last season at Memphis where the speedy guards would just go around him and the coach would have to make adjustments. Our shooting guard was a point guard size, and point guard was a shooting guard size so it wasn't a big deal to make adjustments. At Memphis we basically called Evans a poor mans young Dwane Wade which isn't a bad thing.

 

[VF21]

At Memphis we basically called Evans a poor mans young Dwane Wade which isn't a bad thing.

Nope, not a bad thing at all...

I think this year's Kings team is shaping up to be fun to watch, playing with heart and hustle and energy and enthusiasm. Back in 99, one of the first things that caught fans' attention was when the Kings started to play the same kind of game, and they responded much like rabid college fans. It's one of the things I've always loved about my Kings, right from the beginning.

I'm not expecting a repeat of those golden days, but it would be nice to see a sequel, you know?

If you're not familiar with Kings basketball, I'm hoping what you'll see this year will make you a fan for life. We're like the Borg collective, always adding to our numbers.

 

[Memphis_Fan]

Although all of the things you mentioned about Evans are things I've already read from other posts, it is actually nice to have validated these things from someone who more or less actually followed the Kid in College. You seem credible enough and I believe what you are saying, especially the objective part of your post.

Now, the question:

In your opinion, how tough can Evans be both mentally and physically?

Is he the sort of a player who plays 100% all the time irregardless of how bad the whole team is playing? I mean, is he the Jordan, Kobe, Wade type of player who wants no less than a win every game no matter what?

I ask you this question because it seems like Evans has excellent talent and physical tools to become a Superstar eventually. But I am afraid the Kid might not have that natural swagger/killer instinct in his blood, or he might not be that mentally competitive enough to cut it.

Evans wont ever give you guys problems in the toughness department. Think of him as a young Ron Artest except not weird. The only plays I ever saw him taking off was when he didn't have the ball. He will always try to make something happen if he has the ball although you might scratch your head on why he went with what he had decided on. Meaning he will make a lot of really obvious mistakes and "zone out" in some games. He will give you 100% though and he will do anything he can to help you win.

My problems with him along with a lot of Memphis fans were somewhat what a few here are talking about. He is somewhat of a black hole on offense when he's concentrating on his own game and will tend to miss an obvious pass to take his own shot. He wasn't the best team player because if the situation doesn't suit him he tends to just stand around. I got the feeling that if he didn't think he was involved in a play he would stand and wait to try to grab an offensive board rather than moving incase the handeler didn't have a shot.

He is still learning the game. He's not going to be a Derrick Rose type point guard but he might give you a decent all around player that can play both guard spots. Just don't expect 7 assists per game and only 2 turnovers per game right off. He's a combo guard learning to play point for an NBA team and he's only 19.

 

[fnordius]

^ Exactly. Why on earth wouldnt you start a top 5 draft pick on a 17 win team?! Sergio Rodriguez instead of Tyreke Evans???

Can't speak for others, but I feel that way because he's never played PG before, and I thought it'd be kind of cruel and counterproductive to throw him out there cold. (I know that he had the title of PG for a few months in Memphis, but he really wasn't. He didn't even make 2 assists per 48 minutes, when every other player on the Kings roster does. His assist/TO ratio was 0.73, worse than any King except for JT. This is a new position for him.)

I have no reason to think he's a dumb guy or anything, he could probably learn quite a bit between now and December or January. And it'd suck for him to have another 8 TO night for our opening game of the season, don't you think? I'd like his first start to be an okay night for him.

Methodically developing our players is all we have going on this year anyway, so I guess I'm just not in a big rush about it. But I don't have to worry about opening week ticket sales, either.

 

[vikinginferno]

Can't speak for others, but I feel that way because he's never played PG before, and I thought it'd be kind of cruel and counterproductive to throw him out there cold. (I know that he had the title of PG for a few months in Memphis, but he really wasn't. He didn't even make 2 assists per 48 minutes, when every other player on the Kings roster does. His assist/TO ratio was 0.73, worse than any King except for JT. This is a new position for him.)

I have no reason to think he's a dumb guy or anything, he could probably learn quite a bit between now and December or January. And it'd suck for him to have another 8 TO night for our opening game of the season, don't you think? I'd like his first start to be an okay night for him.

Methodically developing our players is all we have going on this year anyway, so I guess I'm just not in a big rush about it. But I don't have to worry about opening week ticket sales, either.

It's not like he's the starting point guard for a contending team, if he makes mistakes, even a 10 turnover game, it will be okay and will only make him stronger for the future.

 

[Entity]

Can't speak for others, but I feel that way because he's never played PG before, and I thought it'd be kind of cruel and counterproductive to throw him out there cold. (I know that he had the title of PG for a few months in Memphis, but he really wasn't. He didn't even make 2 assists per 48 minutes, when every other player on the Kings roster does. His assist/TO ratio was 0.73, worse than any King except for JT. This is a new position for him.)

I have no reason to think he's a dumb guy or anything, he could probably learn quite a bit between now and December or January. And it'd suck for him to have another 8 TO night for our opening game of the season, don't you think? I'd like his first start to be an okay night for him.

Methodically developing our players is all we have going on this year anyway, so I guess I'm just not in a big rush about it. But I don't have to worry about opening week ticket sales, either.

not sure about your sources. but he averaged 3.6 assist in 29 min. thats more than your stated 2 for 48. or is this just one of those cases where you throw out a number to make you look like you know something?

 

[Chupacabra]

We're like the Borg collective, always adding to our numbers.

is that a star trek analogy?
I just like that the kings went from being an old undersized team to a young tall&long team. Ive seen some pretty nasty Tyreke Evans highlights. Im willing to bet Westphal gives Evans a simplified offensive system. Im sure theres alot of focus on Evans and id imagine he'll be brought up to speed accordingly. The Kings arent just going to throw Evans out there and say "here, run the triangle offense."

 

[VF21]

is that a star trek analogy?

Might as well just go with it. Resistance is futile.

 

[fnordius]

It's not like he's the starting point guard for a contending team, if he makes mistakes, even a 10 turnover game, it will be okay and will only make him stronger for the future.

(Random trivia: Several months after writing what is usually translated as, "What does not kill me, makes me stronger," philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche became psychotic, and had to be cared for by others for the rest of his life. The nervous breakdown did not kill him... hmmm...)

I dunno. Maybe he wouldn't care. But if doing really badly usually made basketball players better, I'd expect that we'd have a pretty kickass team by now.

 

[fnordius]

not sure about your sources. but he averaged 3.6 assist in 29 min. thats more than your stated 2 for 48. or is this just one of those cases where you throw out a number to make you look like you know something?

Naah, those are the stats for his teammate, #2 guy on the Tigers, Robert Dozier. The poster from Memphis had gotten me thinking, and I had a zillion browser tabs open, looking at all of his teammates to try to analyse what was up with that team. Clicked on the wrong Tiger's tab when I went for the stats, was kind of distracted, and failed to heed my own recollection that his numbers hadn't been THAT bad.

And they weren't. His A/TO ratio was pretty sorry, but he got almost 6.3 assists per 48. That is exactly enough to bump Keyon Dooling out of 44th place in the NBA for assists/48. It's not inspiring, but I'll take it. Objecton withdrawn.

 

[drboiffard]

My problems with him along with a lot of Memphis fans were somewhat what a few here are talking about. He is somewhat of a black hole on offense when he's concentrating on his own game and will tend to miss an obvious pass to take his own shot. He wasn't the best team player because if the situation doesn't suit him he tends to just stand around. I got the feeling that if he didn't think he was involved in a play he would stand and wait to try to grab an offensive board rather than moving incase the handeler didn't have a shot.

He is still learning the game. He's not going to be a Derrick Rose type point guard but he might give you a decent all around player that can play both guard spots. Just don't expect 7 assists per game and only 2 turnovers per game right off. He's a combo guard learning to play point for an NBA team and he's only 19.

So I'd expect him to begin seeing playing as well as PG and as SG. I think it's easier to see him playing in both positions at the begining, as he will have to get A LOT of minutes but maybe he doesn't do it decently as PG at the begining of the season, but still can be effective as SG. If he learns fast enough the PG position, the rotation would be more obvious but right now he can play also as SG.

I don't know why the debate is becoming black or white, starting PG or OH, DRAMA. Not being the PG hasn't to mean he sits on the bench.

 

[OptimusRhyme]

As long as he gets 30 + mpg in his rookie season i'm happy.

 

[drboiffard]

That's clear, but I'd bet it will be 15-20+ minutes as PG/15-10+ as SG.

I think he'll start as PG, but maybe he can't optimize Martin's and the rest of the team's abilities if the match needs it, so that's when Sergio comes to court. He'd came back to court when Martin has to rest a little, as a handling-ball-at-the-mid-of-possesion, Roy-type SG with either Sergio or Beno playing the point...

I don't think the debate has to be simplified having in mind a fixed-positions starting 5 vs. a fixed-positions backup 5, as a player like Tyreke adds enough flexibility to the rotations .

And that's the best for him because he gets a lot of minutes and at the same time he doesn't get a lot of pressure having a "pure PG" starter role for which maybe he isn't ready right now.

 

[Prince_XY]

Evans wont ever give you guys problems in the toughness department. Think of him as a young Ron Artest except not weird. The only plays I ever saw him taking off was when he didn't have the ball. He will always try to make something happen if he has the ball although you might scratch your head on why he went with what he had decided on. Meaning he will make a lot of really obvious mistakes and "zone out" in some games. He will give you 100% though and he will do anything he can to help you win.

My problems with him along with a lot of Memphis fans were somewhat what a few here are talking about. He is somewhat of a black hole on offense when he's concentrating on his own game and will tend to miss an obvious pass to take his own shot. He wasn't the best team player because if the situation doesn't suit him he tends to just stand around. I got the feeling that if he didn't think he was involved in a play he would stand and wait to try to grab an offensive board rather than moving incase the handeler didn't have a shot.

He is still learning the game. He's not going to be a Derrick Rose type point guard but he might give you a decent all around player that can play both guard spots. Just don't expect 7 assists per game and only 2 turnovers per game right off. He's a combo guard learning to play point for an NBA team and he's only 19.

Thanks for your seemingly honest opinion about Evans. I feel much more comfortable now if Westphall et al start our young Kid at PG position. There is no better choice anyways. He is the 4th pick on this draft and it seems he's got all the talent we can use to help this very bad team in all areas of the game. It might be a gamble playing him at point guard, but nevertheless a very good gamble because of the fact that Beno really sucked last year and Sergio is another guy who is questionnable. If it seems not working, say halfway through the season, then I am for trying to develop him at SG.

 

[Aenadin]

i wont be indifferent with evans at the point.. if we run the princeton to its full potential we wont need a true pointguard.. and im expecting coach westphal to bring the most out of our current line up.. lets see if his claim that hes a better coach now than he ever was is true

 

[Bricklayer]

The Princeton is more specific than just "PG does not need to pass". Its also PG needs to be able to shoot and play off the ball, and those things Reek cannot do. He is NOT a Princeton PG. Comes from an entirely different school. And a school that played at its highest levels has had more success -- dominant player dominates the ball. Now the question/problem will be if he is not a dominant player -- then it becomes non-dominant player domiates the ball and its a sure trip to the lottery. Star level players, Kobe, Roys whatnot are a delicate thing -- if you get one who 100% is a star like that they are the most useful players in the game. But if you get one is only 75% as good, who is just a pale imitation, they may actually hurt you because they need the ball so much.

 

[Kingster]

perhaps... and that would be cool if thats how it worked out. but if we are relying on a rookie who is possibly playing out of position to do all of that we are in bad shape this season. how many rookies have been able to do that though? most end up forcing the issue and turning the ball over. the pace of the nba is totally different than college ball. i guess we really wont know until the preseason starts.

We're going to be in bad shape this season? Really? OMG!

 

[AriesMar27]

We're going to be in bad shape this season? Really? OMG!

ugh, yeah... leading up to the draft we had something to look forward to, the possibility of getting a franchise player like griffin or rubio. if evans turns out to be just another player and not a superstar in the making we will have to endure another season like last season. which is something i dont want to go through again.

you know you are in a messed up situation when clipper and grizzlie fans feel sorry for you...

 

[fnordius]

The Princeton is more specific than just "PG does not need to pass". Its also PG needs to be able to shoot and play off the ball, and those things Reek cannot do. He is NOT a Princeton PG. Comes from an entirely different school. And a school that played at its highest levels has had more success -- dominant player dominates the ball. Now the question/problem will be if he is not a dominant player -- then it becomes non-dominant player domiates the ball and its a sure trip to the lottery. Star level players, Kobe, Roys whatnot are a delicate thing -- if you get one who 100% is a star like that they are the most useful players in the game. But if you get one is only 75% as good, who is just a pale imitation, they may actually hurt you because they need the ball so much.

I'm sure that he can move without the ball if the coaching staff let him know that it's important. And he's got enough range to be useful while Coachie gets him working on his 3 pointers. But I totally agree that dominating the ball doesn't work with anything resembling a Princeton, I don't think it'd really work even at superstar level.

But that's a bad habit on Evans' part anyway, and one that needs to be broken. He was the best player on his HS team, by a mile. He was also easily the star of Memphis, nobody else on that roster is likely to ever play in an NBA game. I think he figured he might as well play 1-on-5, and his coaches let him. But that's uncalled for in the NBA, and absolutely will kill a Princeton, so he'd better be willing to change it. Otherwise, we go back to the Artest/Salmons thing of having one player try repeated iso plays while everyone else stands around. It wasn't fun to watch, and didn't win games.

 

[Jechtsphere]

ugh, yeah... leading up to the draft we had something to look forward to, the possibility of getting a franchise player like griffin or rubio. if evans turns out to be just another player and not a superstar in the making we will have to endure another season like last season. which is something i dont want to go through again.

you know you are in a messed up situation when clipper and grizzlie fans feel sorry for you...

Regardless of who we drafted we would of had another bad season, you can have great talent but if your talent is so young it's going to take a while to get back to being a decent to good team.

We'll be high up in the lottery again this season.

 

[Bricklayer]

I'm sure that he can move without the ball if the coaching staff let him know that it's important. And he's got enough range to be useful while Coachie gets him working on his 3 pointers. But I totally agree that dominating the ball doesn't work with anything resembling a Princeton, I don't think it'd really work even at superstar level.

But that's a bad habit on Evans' part anyway, and one that needs to be broken. He was the best player on his HS team, by a mile. He was also easily the star of Memphis, nobody else on that roster is likely to ever play in an NBA game. I think he figured he might as well play 1-on-5, and his coaches let him. But that's uncalled for in the NBA, and absolutely will kill a Princeton, so he'd better be willing to change it. Otherwise, we go back to the Artest/Salmons thing of having one player try repeated iso plays while everyone else stands around. It wasn't fun to watch, and didn't win games.

You seem overly focused on what's appropriate for a Princeton -- I have mentioned before that you build your system around your players, not your players around a system (at least your core players -- once the core guys are in place with their preferred system then you fill in with system specific reolplayers).

And Reke's ball dominance does not have to be a bad thing -- ball dominant players around the league include Kobe, LeBron, Roy, Wade, CP3 and virtually every other major perimeter player in the game. The problem with Artest and Salmons is that they weren't good enough to play that way. And yes, when you aren't good enough to play that way it is absolutely disruptive. But if you are good enough to play that way, then its one of those sine qua non traits of a dominant player. Has the ball, cannot be stopped, forces the other team's entire defense to buckle to that fact.

Edit: as an aside, on the flip side Eddie Jordan was often accused of running a Princeton infused system in Washington with Arenas at the point. Obviously a far more prolific outside shooter, but perhaps an iindicator of what could happen here if we decide that our other personnel can't excel wihtout the Princeton system. A hybrid of some sort. Or the great player playing his game whille the lesser guys stay in a Princeton stlyle when he does not have the ball. Maybe a lot of high pick and rolls and high ball screens with Hawes and Reke with Hawes handling.

 

[fnordius]

You seem overly focused on what's appropriate for a Princeton -- I have mentioned before that you build your system around your players, not your players around a system (at least your core players -- once the core guys are in place with their preferred system then you fill in with system specific reolplayers).

That's not how Geoff has done it, though... in '96 he hired Coachie, then proceeded to replace virtually the entire roster to make the Princeton work. Whether he will come up with a totally different offense tailored to our current roster remains to be seen.

 

[AriesMar27]

Regardless of who we drafted we would of had another bad season, you can have great talent but if your talent is so young it's going to take a while to get back to being a decent to good team.

We'll be high up in the lottery again this season.

we dont know that and we never will because geoff wanted to play it safe again. its been this way for the past 3 years; new coach, same players....

 

[OnYouLikeGlue]

ugh, yeah... leading up to the draft we had something to look forward to, the possibility of getting a franchise player like griffin or rubio. if evans turns out to be just another player and not a superstar in the making we will have to endure another season like last season. which is something i dont want to go through again.

you know you are in a messed up situation when clipper and grizzlie fans feel sorry for you...

I wanted Tyreke in the draft but would've been happy with Rubio because I think he's a very unique player and will be good, but how can you automatically say he's got a better shot at being a franchise player than Evans, I just don't see it.

I think this is why people feel you are being negative towards Evans when maybe you don't feel you are. But it seems you are continuing to praise a guy who we didn't draft and might not even play in the NBA because things didn't work out exactly the way he wanted instead of praising the guy we did draft who played in a meaningless summer league game with an injury. That shows toughness and potential leadership ability. I think we're just saying maybe stop assuming the worst with Evans and just enjoy his development and the growth of the young Kings.

 

[kingsnation]

we dont know that and we never will because geoff wanted to play it safe again. its been this way for the past 3 years; new coach, same players....

Actually, wouldn't Reke, Omri, Sergio and Brock be the exact opposite of the players we've had the past 3 years?

 

[Kingster]

ugh, yeah... leading up to the draft we had something to look forward to, the possibility of getting a franchise player like griffin or rubio. if evans turns out to be just another player and not a superstar in the making we will have to endure another season like last season. which is something i dont want to go through again.

you know you are in a messed up situation when clipper and grizzlie fans feel sorry for you...

If, if, if... Look, if Evans played like a very good mature guard (and not a 19 year old kid) next year, you're still looking at a lottery team. If Hawes and Thompson break their legs and Evans is a bust and the Maloofs go broke, you know what? - it's probably not going to be a very good year.

 

[Kingster]

That's not how Geoff has done it, though... in '96 he hired Coachie, then proceeded to replace virtually the entire roster to make the Princeton work. Whether he will come up with a totally different offense tailored to our current roster remains to be seen.

I remember that time period distinctly. The previous year it was obvious that the Kings didn't have the right system for the personnel that they had. They had great passers, but the system didn't augment their passing skill. I remember there were discussions (by me on the radio for example) about using the high post system that Portland used with Walton. That's when Petrie brought in Coachie and Adelman changed the system. The system was modified to the personnel, not the other way around.