Tyreke Evans will start from Day One

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AriesMar27

Guest
#91
#91
youre right about hawes brick... he is talented enough to get his own shot, he just isnt strong enough to hold his position down low. but martin, thompson and our glut of sf's will need someone who can find them.

does evans have the court vision to find martin coming off of multiple screens? or to get hawes the ball before he is pushed out of position and is forced to shoot threes? if being doubled is the only way that he finds the open man we are in trouble for the first half of the season. this is why i think he would be better coming off the bench. give him the freedom to get a feel for the pace and physicality of the nba game. like i said, it didnt hurt gordon or manu...
 
A

AriesMar27

Guest
#92
#92
Entity said:
I have one problem. I know I keep seeing where Kevin needs a pure pg and needs to be set up. Well he had beno last year and bibby and Artest before that in which he wasn't the first option. yet he still averaged over 20ppg and made ppl quite happy with his offense. Sooo in saying that are you saying that Kevin needs a pure pg to get 30ppg or what. I am not so sure of that argument. I mean I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say about Kevin needing the pure pg. because he has done well without for the last 3 years.
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he plays well without a pure pg until the 4th quarter... when the defense is focused on martin he needs someone to set him up. beno couldnt do it and with bibby, martin wasnt the #1 option....
 
NME

NME

Starter
#93
#93
AriesMar27 said:
he plays well without a pure pg until the 4th quarter... when the defense is focused on martin he needs someone to set him up. beno couldnt do it and with bibby, martin wasnt the #1 option....
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What happens when the defense can't afford to focus on Martin?
 
Entity

Entity

Hall of Famer
#94
#94
AriesMar27 said:
he plays well without a pure pg until the 4th quarter... when the defense is focused on martin he needs someone to set him up. beno couldnt do it and with bibby, martin wasnt the #1 option....
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thanks but it was really a question for Brick. I should have stated as much. but your take is.... well its noted.
 
kingsnation

kingsnation

All-Star
#95
#95
AriesMar27 said:
youre right about hawes brick... he is talented enough to get his own shot, he just isnt strong enough to hold his position down low. but martin, thompson and our glut of sf's will need someone who can find them.

does evans have the court vision to find martin coming off of multiple screens? or to get hawes the ball before he is pushed out of position and is forced to shoot threes? if being doubled is the only way that he finds the open man we are in trouble for the first half of the season. this is why i think he would be better coming off the bench. give him the freedom to get a feel for the pace and physicality of the nba game. like i said, it didnt hurt gordon or manu...
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Gordon and Manu were also not being billed as the next great things for their respective franchises. This is like saying that "Duncan, Lebron or D12 should come off the bench. They're high picks and their teams have gaping holes at their positions, but let's just keep them on the bench for a while just in case they have a hard time adjusting to life in the NBA.. after all it didn't hut Gordon or Manu"... :rolleyes:
 
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Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#96
#96
Entity said:
I have one problem. I know I keep seeing where Kevin needs a pure pg and needs to be set up. Well he had beno last year and bibby and Artest before that in which he wasn't the first option. yet he still averaged over 20ppg and made ppl quite happy with his offense. Sooo in saying that are you saying that Kevin needs a pure pg to get 30ppg or what. I am not so sure of that argument. I mean I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say about Kevin needing the pure pg. because he has done well without for the last 3 years.
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Look at it this way -- first, Kevin's efficiency has deteriorated every year right along with our PG play -- from Bibby (.473) to half Bibby/half good Beno (.456) to bad Beno (.420). Last year Kevin was actually almost the last player on the team you wanted shooting the ball. The reason being he was being asked to create for himself. Secondly, Evans is going to take a lot more shots than Beno. So if Evans turns out to only be Beno level at the PG skills (as opposed to scoring skills), and Kevin is already struggling to create offense on his own, how is it going to look when he has to create his own shots on five fewer shots?

The hope would have to be that Evans turns out to be so good that he is the guy who finally knocks Kevin back into second option status, and that Kevin is able to succeed there even withiuut being setup simply because everyone is more scared of Reke and Kevin gets to work against weaker defenders and gets open shots. Kevin has always had a game that might do well next to a superstar. But now asking Reke to be a superstar, at 19 no less, is a tall order.
 
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drboiffard

drboiffard

Bench
#97
#97
Sooo in saying that are you saying that Kevin needs a pure pg to get 30ppg or what.
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More or less. With a good orchestra director Martin will be much more effective, as a good PG can make holes in the defense wich can let him easier 3 shoots, for example. He can make out his own shoots, of course, but well, it's easier to score when you're shooting almost alone...

I have in mind how Sergio worked with Rudy, and well, while Martin is better, he and Rudy are similar enough...I have no doubt that some crazy, easy alley-ops and some absolutely clear 3 shoots will improve Kevin's numbers. No doubt.

Hawes is good enough by himself, but the same point: with a faster PG than Beno (hoho that's easy) he would score much more, as most times last year Beno waited the ball too much time, enough to the defender pick the good position.

Is there an absolutely lack of a pure PG? Maybe not, but hey, it would improve the thing A LOT. Enough to win more games.
 
sidney

sidney

Starter
#98
#98
Bricklayer said:
As an aside, all these people saying Hawes needs a pure PG could hardly have picked a more inappropriate center for that argument. Kevin yes. Jason quite possibly -- not convinced of his talent at creating his own shots. Noc, Cisco, roleplayer types. But Spencer can get a shot up from just about anywhere. He doesn't need to be set up perfectly because he has as many or more shots than any other center in the game right now -- not an exaggeration. All he needs is a simple post entry or pick and roll pass
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Hawes isn't dominating in the post the way I had hoped when we drafted him. Sure he's got all the shots in there somewhere. I still hope this is a coaching issue or strength/experience issue. But until he starts being the guy we can go to in the 4th quarter to get a high % shot every time he would benefit greatly from a pure PG.

Evans should help him too just by drawing attention in the lane but it'll be different. Will have to see how that all works
 
NME

NME

Starter
#99
#99
If Tyreke can just recognize early post-ups off of transition, that will be a great benefit to JT and Hawes. How many times last year did JT especially get downcourt before the defense was set, only to be ignored?
 
Entity

Entity

Hall of Famer
#100
#100
Bricklayer said:
Look at it this way -- first, Kevin's efficiency has deteriorated every year right along with our PG play -- from Bibby (.473) to half Bibby/half good Beno (.456) to bad Beno (.420). Last year Kevin was actually almost the last player on the team you wanted shooting the ball. The reason being he was being asked to create for himself. Secondly, Evans is going to take a lot more shots than Beno. So if Evans turns out to only be Beno level at the PG skills (as opposed to scoring skills), and Kevin is already struggling to create offense on his own, how is it going to look when he has to create his own shots on five fewer shots?

The hope would have to be that Evans turns out to be so good that he is the guy who finally knocks Kevin back into second option status, and that Kevin is able to succeed there even withiuut being setup simply because everyone is more scared of Reke and Kevin gets to work against weaker defenders and gets open shots. Kevin has always had a game that might do well next to a superstar. But now asking Reke to be a superstar, at 19 no less, is a tall order.
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Understood. although I think 5 fewer shots is a a bit over exaggerated. I mean he avered 14 atpt with Bibby/Artest and just 1 with 15 with Beno/Bibby/Artest and stayed at 15 with just Beno and basically Kevin being the #1 option. so 2 attempts is the difference from being #3/#2 to being #1.

I am not concerned. I think his % will go up I saw Evans kick back to Mcneal and a few of the other guys in summer league and they had open shots missed alot but they were open. I think its going to work out just fine.
 
kingsnation

kingsnation

All-Star
#101
#101
sidney said:
Hawes isn't dominating in the post the way I had hoped when we drafted him...
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I think we have to keep in mind that this will be ONLY his 3rd year as well. And really his first FULL year starting. Add that with finally having a LEGIT coach and I think we are going to see a great improvement in Spencer this year.
 
sidney

sidney

Starter
#103
#103
kingsnation said:
I think we have to keep in mind that this will be ONLY his 3rd year as well. And really his first FULL year starting. Add that with finally having a LEGIT coach and I think we are going to see a great improvement in Spencer this year.
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I'm with you there. If we have 2 starters (Hawes and Evans) that can create their own high % shots, we are going to finish out a lot more close games. I'm really hoping it has been a coaching oversight with Hawes - so many times I've been yelling at the TV to get it in the post to see what he can do only to be disappointed.
 
A

AriesMar27

Guest
#105
#105
Entity said:
Are you serious when you say these things or do you sit back and laugh like most of us do when they are so off the wall.
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its a combination of both... but im serious about this though. if evans becomes the player that demands to be doubled and teams are no longer focused on martin; he should be demanding the ball to be passed to him. he is our best shooter by far. he should be the one receiving the ball once evans is doubled. if he isnt doing that it means that he is just standing there watching and he will be traded because of that...

is that such an off the wall way of thinking? it makes sense to me. we really dont need 3 players standing around doing nothing making obscene amounts of money... thats 20+ million being paid to player who are no longer or never were(beno) worth their contract.
 
Entity

Entity

Hall of Famer
#106
#106
I just saw in another thread that you haven't even seen him in these games. you are going by the box scores. LOL how can you posibly sustain a compitant argument when you have NO idea what you are talking about as you haven't seen it. Its like arguing over a color of a car that you haven't seen. My truck is Maroon. dare I ask what color you think it is. I am sure you have an educated idea.
 
A

AriesMar27

Guest
#108
#108
Entity said:
I just saw in another thread that you haven't even seen him in these games. you are going by the box scores. LOL how can you posibly sustain a compitant argument when you have NO idea what you are talking about as you haven't seen it. Its like arguing over a color of a car that you haven't seen. My truck is Maroon. dare I ask what color you think it is. I am sure you have an educated idea.
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red, your truck is red in my educated opinion....

but i saw him in college... and i read all of the posts here during the games. so most of its based on your descriptions of his game. i didnt think that he was a pg in college even though he was forced to play there. but how much do i have to actually watch to see that a person averaging more turnovesr than assists might not be the best person to start at pg? and if you have watched him play what part of his game indicates that he should be a pg? points scored? freethrow attempts? no one else seemed to be doing much offensively and by everyones accounts of the last game the offense wasnt ran very well.

granted just going by just the box scores if thompson and brockman had made their freethrows the kings wouldve won the game. 3-8 from both of them, wow... i could do better than that.
 
A

AriesMar27

Guest
#110
#110
Kingsgurl881 said:
I think he meant that defenses would have to focus on someone other than Martin = open looks for Martin.
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yeah, thats why i said that i hope he demands the ball... he wont get a better look than a wide open one. if he doesnt then he should be traded because he isnt playing hard enough and is just collecting a pay check.
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#113
#113
drboiffard said:
Sergio can handle the ball as a pure PG much better than Beno, he can play as backup PG, but he can play as well with Evans in court (as Blake plays as PG with Roy as SG). He has to improve the D, but hey, in attack he will do it much better than Beno.

I think there are so many possibilities in the rotations right now, and we don't know which of them would work better until the season starts. I mean, if Evans improves his court vision and passing ability, good. If he don't and he develops himself more as a SG, hey, we have a good enough true PG (Sergio) and still have Beno, so good too.

I said my first day here in the forum that I thought that picking up Sergio + Evans instead of Rubio was a very intelligent move precissely because of this. Maybe it sounded ridiculous if you have the business in mind, I know, but having Rubio + Sergio would have supossed a lot less flexibility right now. Sergio is what the team needs RIGHT NOW if you take out Evans from the equation, as the creative PG he is, playing with Martin and Hawes and moving the ball precissely. Evans can evolve into a pure PG, but he can also be effective RIGHT NOW by playing himself as a SG who makes out his own shoots.

I mean, the worst case is: if Evans doesn't finally work as a "team engine" PG, with Martin and Hawes, Sergio will do it good enough. And you still have Evans as a ****ing scoring machine as 6th man.
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Thanks for bringing Sergio back into the discussion because I'd completely forgotten about him. We did get a pass-first Spanish PG on draft day, even if it wasn't the one everyone wanted. Sergio can fill the Steve Blake role if/when Evans gets minutes at SG. The way our roster is currently set up, that situation seems pretty likely since Garcia will be coming off the bench to play at SG and SF and Greene/Casspi will be getting some time at PF. There's also the intriguing combination of Sergio and Martin playing together in the back-court which hopefully gets Martin some easy shots off cuts to the basket. The Sergio Rodriguez YouTube highlight reels were just as impressive as the Rubio ones if you like slick passing. I like Sergio as the backup PG right away better than Beno-- except for Beno's contract situation. We might have to showcase Beno a bit to try and get some trade interest.
 
A

AriesMar27

Guest
#114
#114
there's always jamal tinsley.... which would be worse for indy? 2 more years of tinsley not playing or 4 years of beno playing poorly? tj ford is also injury prone... so beno would get minutes....
 
drboiffard

drboiffard

Bench
#115
#115
Yeah, I know you all people forget Sergio, but I'm here to remind you he's going to be the next J-Will. :D

Right now, I see more productive having Sergio + Martin at the same time. I mean, Martin is better than Rudy but the same type of player, and the Rudy+Sergio combo was lethal in Portland. I mean: clear 3 shoot options and crazy alley-oops for Martin.

It was because Sergio was there that Rudy broke the rookie 3-pointer record, and it was because Sergio was there to give him alley-oops that Rudy came to the dunk contest. The Olympics in-your-face dunk to Howard had to be a lot, of course, but if Rudy didn't have a lot of crazy alley-oops from Sergio at the begining of the season he wouldn't have get into it.

Add the run'n'gun Westphal factor and you have it. The same but better, because (a) Martin is better than Rudy right now and (b) the system it is encouraged from the coach, and in Portland with Nate I-only-have-eyes-for-Roy McMuffin wasn't


The Sergio Rodriguez YouTube highlight reels were just as impressive as the Rubio ones if you like slick passing
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Sergio is better passer than Ricky. His deffense is mediocre, his shoot is low-average and has to improve both, and he's of course a less complete player. But one thing is sure, Sergio is the best spanish passer EVER.
 
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Chupacabra

Chupacabra

Starter
#116
#116
Im becoming more and more excited about Evans. From the action ive seen him in so far he really resembles Pre-injury Penny Hardaway. Less athletic but every bit as able. Less athletic players incur less significant injuries anyway. Ive seen quite a few players, specifically point guards, start for their teams when they werent necessarily ready to and end up blossoming into top level players. Tony parker and Rajon Rondo to name a couple. The Kings backcourt is going to be SICK!
 
Kingster

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#117
#117
drboiffard said:
Yeah, I know you all people forget Sergio, but I'm here to remind you he's going to be the next J-Will. :D

Right now, I see more productive having Sergio + Martin at the same time. I mean, Martin is better than Rudy but the same type of player, and the Rudy+Sergio combo was lethal in Portland. I mean: clear 3 shoot options and crazy alley-oops for Martin.

It was because Sergio was there that Rudy broke the rookie 3-pointer record, and it was because Sergio was there to give him alley-oops that Rudy came to the dunk contest. The Olympics in-your-face dunk to Howard had to be a lot, of course, but if Rudy didn't have a lot of crazy alley-oops from Sergio at the begining of the season he wouldn't have get into it.

Add the run'n'gun Westphal factor and you have it. The same but better, because (a) Martin is better than Rudy right now and (b) the system it is encouraged from the coach, and in Portland with Nate I-only-have-eyes-for-Roy McMuffin wasn't

Sergio is better passer than Ricky. His deffense is mediocre, his shoot is low-average and has to improve both, and he's of course a less complete player. But one thing is sure, Sergio is the best spanish passer EVER.
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And the book on him is that he's much better in a running game, which tells me that the Kings are really intent on running the ball.
 
F

fnordius

All-Star
#118
#118
In reply to the original post;

I'd rather have seen Sergio starting for now. I know that his D kind of sucks, but he can make assists without a lot of TOs, and we could really use that. The team will be needing to get used to each other, a new coach, a new playbook, and the rookies will be adjusting to different rules and court measurements. Tyreke could have come in gradually, as he got the hang of being an NBA PG (or not).

But the Maloofs are undoubtedly thinking about ticket sales, and, with all the local hype surrounding Tyreke, starting him from the first day of the season will probably make them more money. So chalk it up as inevitable.
 
A

AriesMar27

Guest
#119
#119
fnordius said:
In reply to the original post;

I'd rather have seen Sergio starting for now. I know that his D kind of sucks, but he can make assists without a lot of TOs, and we could really use that. The team will be needing to get used to each other, a new coach, a new playbook, and the rookies will be adjusting to different rules and court measurements. Tyreke could have come in gradually, as he got the hang of being an NBA PG (or not).

But the Maloofs are undoubtedly thinking about ticket sales, and, with all the local hype surrounding Tyreke, starting him from the first day of the season will probably make them more money. So chalk it up as inevitable.
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how come you and drboiffard dont get attacked by newbies? and wasnt i the first person that said that id rather have sergio starting at pg and got ambushed for it? all of a sudden people are getting praise for mentioning sergio when that ws the first thing that i did.


AriesMar27 said:
i hope he earns the starting pg spot. but that wont happen in the beginning because the spot is evans' to lose.

my question is if evans starts off poorly due to turnovers and basic rookie mistakes when will the coach pull him? he has been given the starting spot without ever playing in an actual nba game how much leverage will he be given? how many losses due to poor passing/decision making will the maloofs put up with before yanking him? you guys do remember what happened to theus last season.... and he was the coach in his second season as head coach.
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wheres kingsgurl881 and onyoulikeglue when you guys have your own opinions? okay im nitpicking again... not to be confused with nosepicking. not to get off topic but why is cherry picking called cherry picking in basketball?
 
ParniValjak

ParniValjak

All-Star
#120
#120
AriesMar27 said:
he plays well without a pure pg until the 4th quarter... when the defense is focused on martin he needs someone to set him up. beno couldnt do it and with bibby, martin wasnt the #1 option....
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But if you have players that can create their own shots and do it well, the focus won't be on Martin in the 4th quarter.

I think we now have 2 players on the roster that can create their own offence. Evans and Hawes can both get their shots off and don't need to rely on anyone to set them up. Come 4th quarter when the game needs to be close, these guys are our options and if they get double teamed as expected, their job is to find Martin for an open shot.

In the 4th quarter defences will focus on our most dangerous player and from what we are seeing so far with Evans and what we have seen so far with Hawes, in a couple of years time with more development these are our guys.
 
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