Truehoop article on Tyreke's season and situation

#91
Just get it over with and bring some shooters in via trade. Of course, I fully expect to see a non-shooting ball handling SF coming back in a trade right now. Does John Salmons have a twin brother?
 
#93
Rodo and Evans are nothing alike... Evans is a SG who cant shoot or a SF. Rondo is a TRUE PG.... Rondo is a quarterback that sets up and runs the offense with perfect passes and drives that create for others most of the time. if he doesn't have the shot.... Evans is hardly that type of true PG.
Oh god, here we go again with the titles. Rondo=PG, Tyreke=Not PG, therefore Tyreke=Not Rondo. Can we extend beyond elementary logic for once?

I don't care what you call them. Make up a position -- ball handling point forward or something. Rondo is one of my favorite players, I'm well aware of how he plays and I don't think Evans, or pretty much anyone else, is capable of duplicating his talents. But Rondo is playing within an offensive structure. When he drives he knows where his teammates are going to be, and where they're going to cut to next. Even though the defense plays off him daring him to shoot, he gets to where he wants to be on the floor and that allows him to create scoring opportunities for other people. Which goes to show, it's not impossible to gameplan around a playmaker who isn't a shooter. We used to do this with Evans and it was working. He's not going to average double digit assists like Rondo in any system, but I don't think Rondo could give you 20 points per game either. The point is that the system matters. Rondo's team has one, the Kings do not and as a result everybody is under performing. With or without jumpshot, Tyreke is still a pretty good basketball player.
 
#94
Not really. He doesn't have good court vision, and he doesn't have a midrange game or a jumpshot. So when he attacks and the lane closes off it often leads to turnovers or junk shots.

I think he isn't as aggressive because defenses adjusted to him years ago and he hasn't grown his game enough to counter it. He also isn't good at recognizing when the opportunity is there or not there.
Couldn't agree more. One of the best Tyreke analysis of all-time. I'll drink to that!
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Staff member
#96
Indeed those NBA defenses react quick man. I mean less than a year ago in Reke's first 22 games under Smart, while playing PG, he averaged 18.3pts 5.6reb 5.9ast.

But yeah, now all of a sudden they've got him all figured out. Been about what? 40 games of NBA action since then?
 
#97
The nice thing about starting Jimmer, if he has in fact regained the ability to shoot like he did in college, is he can let Reke handle the ball. Between Reke and JJ, on D the team can hide him on the weakest player. Maybe even start Salmons at SF and have IT/MT/JJ come off the bench. Both lineups have ballhandling and only one below avg shooter.

That takes Brooks minutes, but then he's just an expiring deal and veteran insurance at PG.
What's with people thinking Jimmer ever lost his shot? lol. He shot over 38% from 3 last year, his shot is there. His shooting this year has been through the roof. You don't just lose such a pure shot such as his. It was his shot SELECTION that was lacking, which is normal for a rookie.
 
#98
What's with people thinking Jimmer ever lost his shot? lol. He shot over 38% from 3 last year, his shot is there. His shooting this year has been through the roof. You don't just lose such a pure shot such as his. It was his shot SELECTION that was lacking, which is normal for a rookie.
It was actually 38% overall from the floor which is awful for a shooter, 36% from 3. Some advice for you, he's showing some signs of life this year which is great for the team and the jimmer fans. But trying to pretend like he wasn't really inefective last year or doesn't still have some big holes diminishes your argument.

Let's be excited that the shooting skills have looked good and some of the playmaker skills have really improved without pretending he has shown something his whole nba career of 1+ years.
 
#99
It was actually 38% overall from the floor which is awful for a shooter, 36% from 3. Some advice for you, he's showing some signs of life this year which is great for the team and the jimmer fans. But trying to pretend like he wasn't really inefective last year or doesn't still have some big holes diminishes your argument.

Let's be excited that the shooting skills have looked good and some of the playmaker skills have really improved without pretending he has shown something his whole nba career of 1+ years.
36%, my bad. 36% is still a good 3 point percentage, what are you talking about?
 
36%, my bad. 36% is still a good 3 point percentage, what are you talking about?
I'm talking about your great shooter example from last year shooting 38% from the floor, almost dead last on a team of crappy shooters. Yes, 36% is decent 3 point shooting, probably around 100th or so in the league. These are not great examples to show how even last year, he was an amazing shooter.

Honestly, what are you talking about? You do realize its possible to appreciate and be excited about what he is starting to do in a limited minutes this year while also admitting last year that he was really not good, don't you?
 
36%, my bad. 36% is still a good 3 point percentage, what are you talking about?

When your entire game is about long range bombs, and you are no longer the focal point of a defense, you better be shooting better than 36%.
It is right at the borderline of good. You don't want him shooting less, but you don't necessarily want him shooting many more. 36% is a down year for a great shooter, which is what I'm hoping it will be for Jimmer.
 
I'm talking about your great shooter example from last year shooting 38% from the floor, almost dead last on a team of crappy shooters. Yes, 36% is decent 3 point shooting, probably around 100th or so in the league. These are not great examples to show how even last year, he was an amazing shooter.

Honestly, what are you talking about? You do realize its possible to appreciate and be excited about what he is starting to do in a limited minutes this year while also admitting last year that he was really not good, don't you?
Career 3point percentages
Steve Smith - 35.8
Jamal Crawford - 35.1
Chuck Person - 36.2
John Starks - 34.0
Mookie Blaylock - 33.6
Kobe Bryant - 34.2
Dan Majerle - 35.8
Tim Hardaway - 35.5
Jason Kidd - 34.9

Like I stated, Jimmer NEVER lost his shot. It is impossible for Jimmer to lose his shot. He was a rookie playing a shortened season and had no defined role, accompanied by a coaching change. Maybe his shot selection was off, but he shot the ball quite well from long distance considering the mess he was put into.
 
We need a SF like Bruce Bowen was in his prime. Someone who can shoot if needed but who's willing to accept a role. If Salmons could be that guy I wouldn't mind keeping him here. I am not sure at this point in his career if he cares much about stats. He's already got the big payday of his career so I assume he would be more willing to accept a role.

I would also like a pure PG that can keep an opposing defense honest when it comes to 3pt shooting. With both Salmons, and the PG out there it would open up the lane for Evans, and allow Cousins to play down low without having a "packed paint vs. Cousins" scenario like we have seen all year.

We all know what the gameplan is for opposing teams. We are as easy of a team to read as there has ever been... We have decent pieces but Smart isn't even coming close to using them correctly. Evans has a green light to shoot? If I am not mistaken he has told everyone in the starting lineup they have a green light. So are they all looking for their own shots? It's quite annoying to watch this team as it is now.
 
Career 3point percentages
Steve Smith - 35.8
Jamal Crawford - 35.1
Chuck Person - 36.2
John Starks - 34.0
Mookie Blaylock - 33.6
Kobe Bryant - 34.2
Dan Majerle - 35.8
Tim Hardaway - 35.5
Jason Kidd - 34.9

Like I stated, Jimmer NEVER lost his shot. It is impossible for Jimmer to lose his shot. He was a rookie playing a shortened season and had no defined role, accompanied by a coaching change. Maybe his shot selection was off, but he shot the ball quite well from long distance considering the mess he was put into.
A couple things. First, most of those guys aren't pure shooters and did a hell of a lot more on the court than just hit 3s. If you want to compare Jimmer's season to a list it would be guys like this (last season's %):

Mike Miller 45
Brandon Rush 45
Jordan Farmar 44
Danny Green 44
Kyle Korver 44
Ben Gordon 43
Jerryd Bayless 42
Matt Bonner 42
Gary Neal 42
JJ Redick 42
James Jones 40

Second, I don't disagree that there were factors last year that impacted his performance. My point was that arguing he did a great job shooting last year isn't supported by the % of shots he hit.
 
A couple things. First, most of those guys aren't pure shooters and did a hell of a lot more on the court than just hit 3s. If you want to compare Jimmer's season to a list it would be guys like this (last season's %):

Mike Miller 45
Brandon Rush 45
Jordan Farmar 44
Danny Green 44
Kyle Korver 44
Ben Gordon 43
Jerryd Bayless 42
Matt Bonner 42
Gary Neal 42
JJ Redick 42
James Jones 40

Second, I don't disagree that there were factors last year that impacted his performance. My point was that arguing he did a great job shooting last year isn't supported by the % of shots he hit.
Mike Miller, Brandon Rush, Danny Green, Kyle Korver, Matt Bonner, Gary Neal and James Jones are horrible comparisons...they are catch and shoot players, while Jimmer creates a lot of his own threes off the dribble. You're just trying to be right instead of being objective. Jimmer is not just a shooter, he is a shot creator for himself and others. Stop pigeonholing Jimmer based on your inaccurate assessment of his game.
 
Mike Miller, Brandon Rush, Danny Green, Kyle Korver, Matt Bonner, Gary Neal and James Jones are horrible comparisons...they are catch and shoot players, while Jimmer creates a lot of his own threes off the dribble. You're just trying to be right instead of being objective. Jimmer is not just a shooter, he is a shot creator for himself and others. Stop pigeonholing Jimmer based on your inaccurate assessment of his game.
I don't think he's the one not being objective...and yes this is coming from a Jimmer supporter.
 
Mike Miller, Brandon Rush, Danny Green, Kyle Korver, Matt Bonner, Gary Neal and James Jones are horrible comparisons...they are catch and shoot players, while Jimmer creates a lot of his own threes off the dribble. You're just trying to be right instead of being objective. Jimmer is not just a shooter, he is a shot creator for himself and others. Stop pigeonholing Jimmer based on your inaccurate assessment of his game.
Sorry, this part made me laugh. Your argument to why he wasn't a good three point shooter is because he was creating his own shots?
 
Indeed those NBA defenses react quick man. I mean less than a year ago in Reke's first 22 games under Smart, while playing PG, he averaged 18.3pts 5.6reb 5.9ast.

But yeah, now all of a sudden they've got him all figured out. Been about what? 40 games of NBA action since then?
what was our record in those games? we were absolutely getting hammered night in and night out. I'm talking blow outs that make you shake your head, and the offense was non existant, just like this year. Offensively we improved drastically when Smart handed the reigns to Isaiah. Tyreke is not an NBA PG, his handles are that of a great pg, but thats it, he doesn't have the bball iq or personality to lead a team.
 
what was our record in those games? we were absolutely getting hammered night in and night out. I'm talking blow outs that make you shake your head, and the offense was non existant, just like this year. Offensively we improved drastically when Smart handed the reigns to Isaiah. Tyreke is not an NBA PG, his handles are that of a great pg, but thats it, he doesn't have the bball iq or personality to lead a team.
I'm not going to trudge out all of the stats again but we had a worse record with Reke at the 3 against inferior teams with more games at home. But we did score more points while doing all that losing so there was that.
 
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You're not paying attention on any level, basketball nor thread wise. That or you're trolling me.
Rather than keep debating whether 38% shooting is indicative of a good shooting season, I have a question. Who do you think Jimmer is comparable to in the NBA right now in terms of talent and role?
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Staff member
what was our record in those games? we were absolutely getting hammered night in and night out. I'm talking blow outs that make you shake your head, and the offense was non existant, just like this year. Offensively we improved drastically when Smart handed the reigns to Isaiah. Tyreke is not an NBA PG, his handles are that of a great pg, but thats it, he doesn't have the bball iq or personality to lead a team.
If you panned up just a teensy weensy bit you would have encountered this sterling post from one of the more brilliant posters I have encountered around here:

Here's a stat for you:

Keith Smart record with Reke at PG: 8-14 .364
Record since Smart took Reke off ball: 14-31 .311


That sure did fix things, jackass.
with 8Hm games and 14 Rd games, playing for a brand new coach picked up midseason with no practice time, with Chuck Hayes down with injury, Marcus Thornton down wiht injury, with IT not yet discovered, with Salmons starting.
 
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If you panned up just a teensy weensy bit you would have encountered this sterling post from one of the more brilliant posters I have encountered around here:



with 8Hm games and 14 Rd games, playing for a brand new coach picked up midseason with no practice time, with Chuck Hayes down with injury, Marcus Thornton down wiht injury, with IT not yet discovered, with Salmons starting.
Brick,
Do you think Tyreke should be the starting point guard?
 
Rather than keep debating whether 38% shooting is indicative of a good shooting season, I have a question. Who do you think Jimmer is comparable to in the NBA right now in terms of talent and role?
I'm not going to discuss role, as that is not defined on this team.

Talent level, Jimmer has Steve Nash talent and also reminds me of Bibby in his prime. However, Jimmer is stronger than both of those players and can be a better defender.
 
I'm not going to discuss role, as that is not defined on this team.

Talent level, Jimmer has Steve Nash talent and also reminds me of Bibby in his prime. However, Jimmer is stronger than both of those players and can be a better defender.
Somebody shoot me now. Jimmer has Steve Nash talent. Oh dear God. Steve Nash. 2 time MVP. Compared with Jimmer Fredette.
 
I guess you don't remember Steve Nash before he was Steve Nash.
I do. I went to school with Steve Nash and his game always translated better to an actual position in the NBA. He struggled his first couple years with playing time but even then, he showed true pg skills. Jimmer's challenges have never been about his ability to shoot. It's the other parts of his game where he either lacks the physical skills or the inherent abilities to make an easy transition to an nba position. Again, I like Jimmer and I really hope he finds a niche in the league but let's be honest that it will be a niche at this point. His only elite natural skill is shooting the ball which while important has rarely been enough for a pg that has average speed, handles and court vision or as a very undersized 2. That's without bringing up any defensive challenges he's going to have at either position as he lacks great lateral speed or defensive instincts.

At this point, I'd love for him to become a rotation player that stretches the d and can learn to create using his high bball iq without being a huge liability on d. That would be a real win for him and the team. Anything above that would be a very pleasant surprise.
 
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